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Greg Battaglia
05-15-2007, 09:59 PM
Ok, so apparently around my neighborhood there's a lot of big ass dudes that get all boozed up and start ripping the heads off in innocent bystanders because they get beer muscles. I'm in way better shape than any of these guys and might even be able to give them a fight if I dared to make a stand, but the truth is that they are tall, big, and can hit like trucks. My basic question is what type of combat sport should I get into that will allow me to cause these meat-heads a rude awakening? I'm tired of them picking on innocent people. The next time they get into a bar fight and start beating on the nearest 120 lb nerd I want to be able to teach them a good old fashioned lesson. Any suggestions on the best combat sport that will allow me to take one of these guys out fast and hard?

Robert McBee
05-15-2007, 10:07 PM
I suggest the Scottish martial art, 'FuckYu'. Its mostly headbutting and then kicking the other guy when he's on the ground.*




*paraphased from the Mike Myers classic "So I Married an Axe Murderer"

kevin mckay
05-15-2007, 10:08 PM
Dog brothers + led pipe or take bjj if you think it would one on one
http://www.dogbrothers.com/
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=dog+brothers&hl=en

Safwan Ahmed
05-15-2007, 10:20 PM
All you need...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3K-mrlYG7Y

Jamila Bey
05-15-2007, 10:58 PM
But what if you are the 120# nerd? What system then?

And what systems would you recommend to your lady partners, daughters and mothers who want to defend themselves?

And I'm trying to be sensitive in the phrasing here, but forgive me if I'm not.

I've recently met a number of women who are not feminine-looking and in certain areas, have problems because others wish to "bash" them. Any suggestions there?

My blessing and curse is that I'm a substantial person who doesn't appear an easy target. The down side is that if ever I'm targeted, it's gonna be by someone who has a weapons, is part of a group, or is crazy enough to be up to the challenge...

Steve Liberati
05-16-2007, 03:33 AM
Element of surprise. Forcefully.

Derek Simonds
05-16-2007, 03:57 AM
Whenever I see a post like this the first thing I think of is Troll. But since we are all friends on here that could never happen. :D

The best martial art is one you are trained in and have confidence in using. Most bruisers like you are talking about are going to stand up and throw until you fall down than they put the boots to you. So to stand up to someone you have to at least know how to take a punch then decide how you want to handle them, standing up or going to the ground. That being said the quickest way to that level is training at some gym that offers MMA.

Most guys like this usually back off if someone steps up and finds a way to disarm the situation comfortably. If that don't work 911 on a cell phone doesn't hurt either.

I was going to post a link to the same video as Safwan. It is cheesy but Bas is right on with what he is saying.

Just be careful, you never know when you step up if someone is going to be carrying a knife, or a gun and you have to be aware that in a tough neighborhood that is always a possibility.

Jamilla I have to get ready for work but I have some thoughts on your question and will post them later.

James Evans
05-16-2007, 04:23 AM
any of the following may help:


Get bitten by a radioactive spider. Develop super-Spidey powers.
Witness the cold blooded execution of your parents after a trip to the theatre. Pretend to be a bat. Train like a muthalover.
Be imprisoned for a crime you did not commit. Escape from a military compound. Hide out in the LA underground.


etc

Or you could just go and learn to box and get it out your system. Wanting to be Frank Castle is going to get you hurt.

Allen Yeh
05-16-2007, 04:43 AM
Wanting to be Frank Castle is going to get you hurt.

These were my thoughts exactly but James put it more nicely and along comic book storylines.

Steve Shafley
05-16-2007, 04:51 AM
Bad train of thought.

If these assholes do this frequently, you need to get the cops on them. That's their job, and these guys sound like legitimate menace in the neighborhood.

Allen Yeh
05-16-2007, 04:59 AM
All you need...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3K-mrlYG7Y

That video is awesomely hilarious!

"Don't you ever do this..." (while banging the guys head on the table).

Bill Ripley
05-16-2007, 05:05 AM
Shafmeister is right - that train of thought will land you in the hospital or jail.

Mike ODonnell
05-16-2007, 05:06 AM
I know no martial arts except for the holy trinity....knee, nose and nuts....that drops most people....although the best solution is one where violence is a last resort in my book...I agree on calling the cops...making a stand will make it 100x worse...as the next time they come back with a gun...too many crazy people...and it rarely works out as a happy ending for the guy saving the world like it does in the movies or tv...running around in a spidey or batman suit will only get you in more trouble than you need....

Garrett Smith
05-16-2007, 05:53 AM
Combining SPEAR with Target-Focus Training would be a pretty kick-ass combo in my mind--minimal investment in training with high output.

James Evans
05-16-2007, 06:29 AM
That video is awesomely hilarious!

"Don't you ever do this..." (while banging the guys head on the table).

Did you see this comment?

herraverne (2 days ago) marked as spam

oh my god, he's so...he's a REAL MAN! I just want him to touch me, he's so real...and tough as the ass of a pig.

Hmmm.....

Robb Wolf
05-16-2007, 08:58 AM
El Guapo is freaking awesome!

I really like SBG's take on the street vs ground story:
http://www.straightblastgym.com/street.htm

Work and family safe....street lethal however.

Greg-
Call the cops.

Greg Battaglia
05-16-2007, 09:05 AM
I get the impression that a few poster didn't take my post seriously and think that I'm just some street punk trying to hurt someone. From the nature of my post I can see how you would get that impression, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. More appropriately, I basically want to be able to defend myself. I usually distance myself from these bozos, but occasionally come across them and may eventually become a target. If that's the case, i want to be able to ward them off as quickly as possibly. That Bas Rutten video had me cracking up, but the tips we pretty damn good. I watched another self defense video of his and he says "The absolute quickest way to take down your opponent is to kick him in the balls, then knee him in the face, and if he's still standing, give him an elbow to the face". Sounds pretty effective to me. Regardless of your size, if you get a full force kick to the balls, you're going down. I'm going to be joining a boxing gym this summer, so I think that's a good start. I'm going to look into that SPEAR/ Targeted Force combo. Thanks.

Yael Grauer
05-16-2007, 09:06 AM
A video camera and a cell phone.

MMA and SPEAR.

James Evans
05-16-2007, 09:24 AM
Greg,

before you take offence go back and look over your first post.

The next time they get into a bar fight and start beating on the nearest 120 lb nerd I want to be able to teach them a good old fashioned lesson.

It sounds like you want to walk the streets meting out justice, John Wayne, man-to-man.

Had you originally asked for advice about looking after yourself I would not have suggested you bought a cape and went looking out for a sidekick.

I appreciate where you are coming from but you've got to think these things over clearly. You may get hurt. You may even get stabbed. You may get arrested.

OK, boxing good. Look up Krav Maga. I'm surprised that no one has mentioned that. These will give you confidence.

BUT avoid confrontation whenever possible. That does not cut your balls off.

Unless it's some fucker punching a 90 year old in the head. Then you have my backing to tear them up.

Bill Ripley
05-16-2007, 09:40 AM
Yup - your original post did not come off as someone looking for self-defense skills. Quickest way to go is boxing + BJJ IMO.

Yael Grauer
05-16-2007, 10:01 AM
Unless it's some fucker punching a 90 year old in the head. Then you have my backing to tear them up.

I saw that video, that was ridiculous. All those bystanders...

Yael Grauer
05-16-2007, 10:07 AM
And what systems would you recommend to your lady partners, daughters and mothers who want to defend themselves?

Blauer SPEAR. I also really like Female Fightback (http://warriorschool.com/index.asp?page=course_details&ctype=citizen_srv&cid=113). After taking the class I tested out everything they taught me against resistance with trained (MMA) fighters and about 95% of it works.

I took Impact after reading about it in Gavin DeBecker's book but it doesn't hold a candle up to Fightback and SPEAR, imo.

I really love FMA, MMA, etc. for self-defense but it takes a while to get good and not everybody wants to commit to that...

Chuck Kechter
05-16-2007, 10:14 AM
MMA and SPEAR.

Yael is spot on...

Blauer's SPEAR and the SBG's ISR Matrix work well together (and alone)... This would be considered the "crash-course."

From there some solid MMA (sport) training -- then using that base to branch off into (hand-held) weaponry, pistol work (gun-fu), et cetera, ad infinitum -- to the level of your interest...

Yael Grauer
05-16-2007, 10:31 AM
From there some solid MMA (sport) training -- then using that base to branch off into (hand-held) weaponry, pistol work (gun-fu), et cetera, ad infinitum -- to the level of your interest...

I'm starting to really love taijutsu, and of course FMA is so much fun. Anything with knives and sticks...I'd say rope too but trying to keep at least one thread on this board clean. :o

Elliot Royce
05-16-2007, 11:40 AM
Greg,

Wake up, here. As others (presumably some of the older among us) have pointed out, you could be Chuck Norris and things can still turn bad real quick. I remember a frat party at Tufts where some townies crashed it. It was actually mostly an ROTC frat and we had Special Forces guys to help eject them. 30 minutes later and next thing I know a baseball bat is swinging in the air by my head, only to be stopped by the door frame under which I was standing. Our Special Forces instructor was knocked unconscious. Things continued outside when each side pulled a gun. Fortunately no one died that night.

To be able to protect yourself in the last resort is fine but to get the attitude that you're going to stand your ground and fight it out is stupid. My ego is big enough to stand running away from someone on the street. Sure I fight at the ice rink, but I know my opponent isn't going to pull a gun or knive or get his 5 buddies to pummel me to death.

Defend your family, your country, your life, but don't try to defend some macho sense of ego.

Greg Everett
05-16-2007, 11:50 AM
all good advice so far. don't engage unless it's the last option. if you do engage, remember it's not a sport fight--no rules. you hurt quickly and get the fuck out of there. but always remember no one likes being hurt and like ego pain even less, which means shit can and will escalate very quickly and you may end up having said dudes gunning for you long term. not cool.

Mike ODonnell
05-16-2007, 02:25 PM
As greg said anything goes....including walking or if needed running away. It's a macho thing not to feel like a coward...but like the shaolin monks say "It takes more strength not to fight" (this of course does not include self defense of yourself or others). Do what you must.....as if you are in a hospital bed for 12 months recovering from severe injuries of any kind no one is going to ask you if you fought fair...there is no fair only survival. That and don't do something that you will regret for the rest of your life.

Greg Battaglia
05-16-2007, 03:19 PM
Yeah, you guys are right. I just get frustrated with punks who go around violating other peoples rights. Who are they to beat the hell out of someone for the moronic reason of wanting to show off their "manliness"? I guess I just feel like they need to learn a serious lesson, but after reading your posts I realize that I should leave the teaching to the police! Nevertheless, I do feel that it's important to be capable of defending myself if the situation ever calls for it. I apologize for my first post, i was a bit wired up after watching a few innocent people getting assaulted by these meat-heads at the Phillies game. Anyway, thanks for talking some sense into me.

Steve Shafley
05-16-2007, 04:24 PM
Have you ever seen "Boondock Saints"?

Mike ODonnell
05-16-2007, 05:13 PM
Have you ever seen "Boondock Saints"?

Loved that movie....classic!! But of course that stuff is best left in the movies....real life is hardly that glorious...

Greg I get frustrated at everything I see on the news....so I stopped watching....as for punks and people running around doing shitty stuff....I honestly believe in Karma....what comes around does go around....most those people end up having a pretty short life span....or have a misrable life....

Yael Grauer
05-17-2007, 08:10 PM
Yeah, you guys are right. I just get frustrated with punks who go around violating other peoples rights. Who are they to beat the hell out of someone for the moronic reason of wanting to show off their "manliness"? I guess I just feel like they need to learn a serious lesson, but after reading your posts I realize that I should leave the teaching to the police! Nevertheless, I do feel that it's important to be capable of defending myself if the situation ever calls for it. I apologize for my first post, i was a bit wired up after watching a few innocent people getting assaulted by these meat-heads at the Phillies game. Anyway, thanks for talking some sense into me.

The problem with calling the police (and I do call have to call them more than I'd prefer) is that it takes them a long time to show up. Sometimes you do need to defend yourself or others. And I definitely have a lot of respect for anyone who would step in to help others. Too many bystanders these days. Some caution would be advised for domestic violence type situations obviously.

Mike ODonnell
05-18-2007, 07:36 AM
"Serioulsy...WHO throws a Shoe??" Austin Powers

Brad Hirakawa
05-18-2007, 07:42 AM
I would!!! :)

kevin mckay
05-18-2007, 08:12 AM
My 2 pennies about training

Just as a reference after my first 6 months of bjj 3 times a week I went from pretty wimpy no clue hard to fight my way out of a paper bag to being able to consistently smoke the cops that came into our studio for free training and I am not an super athletic or coordinated guy and some of these guys had a 100lb weight advantage which is a testament to bjj.

After 4 years or training I feel like I would have the odds in my favor with 98% of the people I meet on the street if they are unarmed and alone did not sucker punch or challenge me to a spelling bee.

I tend to rate martial arts by what would happen if I could make a copy of myself and have the pre trained one fight the post trained one.
I did tai kwon do for about 2 years I think it is a great sport and will say nothing bad about it but my ability to fight was increased by about 10-20% if that in the 2 years a trained compared to the 500% I improved doing bjj in 6 months.

To totally illustrate this point if I made a copy of myself and trained one copy in bjj for 6 months and one in tkd for 2 years the bjj copy would annihilate the tkd copy.

The only thing to keep in mind about bjj is that it is ineffective against multiple people IMHO.

Brad Hirakawa
05-18-2007, 08:58 AM
I'm just guessing here.. but I suspect a sucker punch / ambush may be likely scenario on the street (certianly where I live).

I really like the DVD - Die Less Often, with Gabe Suarez and the Dog Brothers.

kevin mckay
05-18-2007, 09:35 AM
Well at least that is better than a spelling bee :)

Brad Hirakawa
05-18-2007, 09:42 AM
Yes.. and as you can see by my posts, I would get ass kicked at a spelling bee as well!

Dave Van Skike
05-18-2007, 10:21 AM
I'm not trying to be an ass..but. Sit back. relax, read The Art of War, watch a Cahrlwes Bronson Movie and then let it go....

Going off looking for secret ass kicking methods will get you face down in a wet smear. The most important martial art is the willingness to do what is neccesary.

Giving someone a "taste of their own medicine" is about your ego, not about fixing the problem.

If you are serious abotu this being a neighborhood problem and you are actually concerned about fixing it, how aboty doing what a grown man would do.........Have the courage of your convictions

Call the cops,

Enlist your neighbors help.

Confront them en masse.

keep calling the cops,

over and over....

Be prepared for a shit storm.

Bill Ripley
05-18-2007, 11:19 AM
The only thing to keep in mind about bjj is that it is ineffective against multiple people IMHO.

All empty hand arts are.

kevin mckay
05-18-2007, 05:29 PM
Agreed but more so with bjj

kevin mckay
05-18-2007, 05:31 PM
I'm not trying to be an ass..but. Sit back. relax, read The Art of War, watch a Cahrlwes Bronson Movie and then let it go....

Going off looking for secret ass kicking methods will get you face down in a wet smear. The most important martial art is the willingness to do what is neccesary.

Giving someone a "taste of their own medicine" is about your ego, not about fixing the problem.

If you are serious abotu this being a neighborhood problem and you are actually concerned about fixing it, how aboty doing what a grown man would do.........Have the courage of your convictions

Call the cops,

Enlist your neighbors help.

Confront them en masse.

keep calling the cops,

over and over....

Be prepared for a shit storm.

Yes, always best to avoid conflict altogether or resolve the issue peacefully.

John Seiler
05-24-2007, 12:28 PM
Cut your hair short, grow a mustache, and wear a windbreaker in summer. You'll be left alone.

Ladies, that advice goes double for you.

Larry Lindenman
05-24-2007, 06:29 PM
Most of us are not going to get mugged by one person. The mopes tend to cull the crowd for the weak and sick. They will only attack when the odds are in their favor. So if you are getting attacked, expect more than one person and a weapon. Situational awareness is the key. Once the gap is closed and the mope has the initiative, your done. Boyds OODA loop is the key. You can only observe, if your looking. Might also want to evaluate pre-fight indicators (grooming gestures, weight shift forward, hands clench, looks around for witnesses, hands to waist band, eyes bulg, speaking in one syllable words). Watch out for the street "interview": "hey man, did you drop this $20?" "How do I get to 4th and main?" and the classic: "got a light?"

Jason Lopez-Ota
05-27-2007, 04:39 PM
Krav Maga would be the best choice in my opinion. Taking on 10 guys alone is just stupid though. If you have a cell phone, call the cops. Then they'll go to jail.

kevin mckay
05-27-2007, 06:38 PM
Why do we never see crav maga in the ufc or pride?

Jason Lopez-Ota
05-27-2007, 10:10 PM
Just because a fighting style is or is not in the UFC doesn't mean it's not effective. Krav hasn't been on the UFC or Pride, but it's been battle tested by the Israeli Defence Forces. There's no knife fighting in the UFC or Pride, does that mean it's not effective and doesn't work? There's also no guns in the UFC. Krav teaches how to disarm people carrying guns, knives, baseball bats, sticks, etc as well as teaches you how to defend bear hugs, chokes, etc. In a street fight you want to get back on your feet as soon as possible. Krav also always trains from a disadvantage. If I got into a fight on the street it would be a godsend if he pulled guard. I'd slam his head straight into the concrete. It isn't pretty or flashy (no flying armbars, jumping kicks), but it works. It's muay thai style kicks and knees, boxing style punches, mixed with groundfighting which has a little BJJ influence. Krav is exactly what you need if street self defence is your goal. Try it out before you say it sucks.

Jason Lopez-Ota
05-27-2007, 10:12 PM
Oleg Taktarov and Bas Rutten both believe in Krav Maga's effectiveness BTW.

Jason Lopez-Ota
05-27-2007, 10:20 PM
I know Krav Maga practitioners in the US military, it's also big with law enforcement. I could go on and on. If my training were for life and death, rather than just being beaten up, I would go for Krav Maga. Here some articles.

Krav in military
http://www.kravmaga.com/pdf/osiarticle_0001.pdf

Federal Air Marshals
http://www.kravmaga.com/pdf/FAMletter002.pdf

Krav Maga and Swat
http://www.kravmaga.com/pdf/swatmarch2006.pdf

No it's not for the UFC, it's more for life and death type scenarios.

kevin mckay
05-28-2007, 08:29 AM
? I was actually just asking a question... ? But now I really want to see it in the ufc or pride, that usually distills away all the marketing, makes me think of all the secret ninja stuff that never really went over that well. The ninja guys usually made the all or nothing claim "I can kill you with the flick of my finger, but I cannot use my secret finger of death in pride or ufc."

Jason Lopez-Ota
05-28-2007, 01:56 PM
Like I said, you can't be shot in the UFC, clubbed over the head, frankenstein choked, or hit in the groin. Krav incorporates stuff like hitting to the groin. The only way you'd see Krav in the UFC is if they allowed hits to the groin, fish hooking, biting, improvised weapons, etc. If you really want to get that in depth, you could say you see Krav Maga in the UFC everytime someone throws a kick, punch, etc. It's the most effective techniques used, like the crossfit of streetfighting. It's not some secret ninja stuff or UFC poseur stuff. Oleg Taktarov fought in the UFC.

Daniel Christensen
05-29-2007, 07:34 AM
If Oleg Taktarov is a ninja, how come he didn't use ninja stars on tank abbott? Thats what I would have done.

Jason Lopez-Ota
05-29-2007, 09:11 PM
I don't know, why don't you ask Oleg.

Yael Grauer
05-29-2007, 10:32 PM
One of the cool things I've noticed about taijutsu is that every technique they have with a weapon can be performed without the weapon. The weapon is just icing on the cake. Though sometimes strange weapons are used to see if your body movement is correct. Something can look like good taijutsu empty-handed and fall apart when you are carrying a big stick.

Robert Allison
05-30-2007, 06:56 AM
? I was actually just asking a question... ? But now I really want to see it in the ufc or pride, that usually distills away all the marketing, makes me think of all the secret ninja stuff that never really went over that well. The ninja guys usually made the all or nothing claim "I can kill you with the flick of my finger, but I cannot use my secret finger of death in pride or ufc."

Yeah, I'm usually a little wary of the whole "my art is too deadly for the ring" speel. There is no doubt that a street fight is different from a boxing or MMA match. But the difference, IMO, is in the application of the tools, not the tools themselves. In a real fight, anything goes, but there is nothing magical or esoteric about dirty fighting. I think it was Matt Thornton who suggested that it is completely unrealistic to think you can finger-jab someone in the eye when you can't even hit them anywhere on the head with a big pad on your hand.

I really don't have any first hand experience with Krav Maga, and it might very well be legit. I don't think that it has to be used in MMA to prove its value. But if the training is not done in an alive manner, then I would have a hard time taking it seriously.

BTW, I thought Taktarov was primarily a sambo guy?

Chuck Kechter
05-30-2007, 11:28 AM
Yeah, I'm usually a little wary of the whole "my art is too deadly for the ring" speel. There is no doubt that a street fight is different from a boxing or MMA match. But the difference, IMO, is in the application of the tools, not the tools themselves.

In a real fight, anything goes, but there is nothing magical or esoteric about dirty fighting. I think it was Matt Thornton who suggested that it is completely unrealistic to think you can finger-jab someone in the eye when you can't even hit them anywhere on the head with a big pad on your hand.

Exactly right on all counts!

I really don't have any first hand experience with Krav Maga, and it might very well be legit. I don't think that it has to be used in MMA to prove its value. But if the training is not done in an alive manner, then I would have a hard time taking it seriously.

80% of KM in the US is a watered down version of the real thing... Lots of conditioning drills (not a bad thing), lots of 1-step type "sparring," lots of if "he" does this, then "you" do that kind of stuff. If you can find the real thing, it's great, but good luck finding an authentic skool... ;):rolleyes:

BTW, I thought Taktarov was primarily a sambo guy?

He is.

Yael Grauer
05-30-2007, 11:57 AM
I think it was Matt Thornton who suggested that it is completely unrealistic to think you can finger-jab someone in the eye when you can't even hit them anywhere on the head with a big pad on your hand.


I can still see both sides in this. I think techniques you can use alive on a mat and not kill someone may not be effective to use when someone is trying to kill you. A friend of mine has a student who is a cage fighter, BJJ black belt, Thai boxer, etc. who was stabbed. His student was on top of the guy in mount beating his face in (and yes, for a legitimate reason) when the guy stabbed his leg, luckily missing the artery. I think it's important to train what it feels like to get hit and hit someone full force, but I also see the perspective that purely alive training may be better preparation for competition than for real life and death combat. I have a lot of friends that are cops or do security work domestically and abroad and a lot of them train in MMA but they also combine it with multiple other types of training (not all of which are alive for a variety of reasons.)

As for as Krav, we asked one of Blauer's guys about it when I was training last weekend and he didn't seem too impressed by it's SD applications but said it was better than karate. I'm paraphrasing.

Jason Lopez-Ota
05-30-2007, 01:51 PM
Oleg Taktarov trains in Krav Maga. He's in one of the Krav Maga DVDs. Street fights are also fast and brutal. You have 10 secs or so to do your damage, not a 3 min round. Being trained in mma would help, but it wouldn't train you for a situation on the street. Krav Maga is not just one step movements. Try it out.

kevin mckay
05-30-2007, 04:58 PM
If my ass is on the line I will defiantly favor physics over marketing and mysticism. For grappling I really like bjj based on personal experience for striking I really like the dog brothers from what I understand the kali translates well into empty hand but have no direct experience other than the videos. Defiantly fun to watch the videos, had some buddies that participated in the "pack" thing, crazy shit.

Yael Grauer
05-30-2007, 05:01 PM
If my ass is on the line, I would hope I have SPEAR training. Physiology overrides cognition. Actually we worked on a ground technique at the last class that would help me GET to BJJ faster...as in, be alive to do the BJJ technique.

Jason Lopez-Ota
05-30-2007, 07:17 PM
There's nothing mystic about Krav Maga. You are just seriously misinformed and in denial. Ignorance is bliss I guess.

kevin mckay
05-30-2007, 09:07 PM
Don't be so sensitive the marketing comment was directed at krav not the mystical one ;) and in all honesty I do not have enough info on krav to make a informed decision I am just discussing because I am on a discussion board. The only thing I have direct experience with is bjj, judo, sambo, shooto and wrestling the rest is pure conjecture I am pulling out of my arse.

Jason Lopez-Ota
05-31-2007, 12:39 AM
Well I guess I understand where your opinion is coming from then. With your backround I think if you tried it, you'd like it. It's aggresive, not magical, simple, and effective.