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Greg Battaglia
05-22-2007, 01:58 PM
Sorry about that, I tried to delete the post because I thought it was pretty stupid after posting. Evidently, that didn't work out too well, lol. Anyway, I might as well just ask it now. Basically, I was curious as to why the Crossfit dietary prescription has changed from it's original form a while back. It used to go something like "Eat lean meats, vegetables, nuts and seeds, a little fruit, and no sugar". It now goes like this "Eat garden vegetables, especially greens, lean meats, nuts and seeds, little starch, and no sugar". I was just curious why the fruit was removed from the equation.

Garrett Smith
05-22-2007, 04:47 PM
No comprendo...

Robb Wolf
05-24-2007, 07:50 AM
Hey Greg-
No clue as to the change. For glycemic control obviously that is a good move...it removes potentially significant levels of fructose which if weight loss is of paramount concern that might be good. Just keep in mind:
Meat and veggies, nuts and seeds, little starch, no sugar...although adequate to prevent metabolic derangement...these "paleo" foods CAN NOT BE EATEN IN A 40/30/30 RATIO.

Ron Wilhelm
05-24-2007, 08:13 AM
Fruits are still there:

Eat meat and vegetables, nuts and seeds, some fruit, little starch and no sugar

Greg Battaglia
05-24-2007, 03:48 PM
Ron, directly from the nutritional prescription from the crossfit main site:
"In plain language, base your diet on garden vegetables, especially greens, lean meats, nuts and seeds, little starch, and no sugar."

Robb, makes plenty of sense to me, however, considering that you can't hit the zone ratios based on the above recommendation would you consider this a problem? I say to hell with Zone, give me higher fat/ lower carb/more veggy/less fruit paleo!

Robb Wolf
05-24-2007, 04:53 PM
Greg-
I'm with you but the Athletes Zone is easy to incorporate some fruit on. Say if I'm on 16 blocks I can make my post WO meal like 4 blocks of protein and 6-8 blocks of carbs...perhaps a little more for a scorcher. All the rest of the carb blocks can be veggies so it decreases the glycemic load of other meals and makes things much lower carb the rest of the day. If one is short a carb block or two just add 3 blocks of fat for every carb block deleted.

Super similar to John Berardi's recommendations but using blocks to manage the macro-nutrients.

One can also construct a cyclic low carb approach this way.

Scott Clark
05-28-2007, 10:51 AM
In my opinion it really depends on one's goals. Personally I eat at least 5 servings of fruit a day and am in no way going to give that up. Am I 5% BF? Hell no, nowhere close and I have no desire to be. While I agree that there are issues of insulin spikes, I'm not worried about it. I eat my fruit early in the day and center it around my workouts, I don't just snack on it. That's what nuts and veggies are for!:)

Robb Wolf
05-28-2007, 12:54 PM
Scott-
That's cool, but like Paul Kayley points out in the endurance thread there ARE favorable adaptations to be had from changing things up and altering macronutrients...perhaps even training in a glycogen depleted state. Sounds like your approach is working fine, all I'd add is tinkering can often provide interesting results.

Mike ODonnell
05-28-2007, 01:17 PM
In my opinion it really depends on one's goals. Personally I eat at least 5 servings of fruit a day and am in no way going to give that up. Am I 5% BF? Hell no, nowhere close and I have no desire to be. While I agree that there are issues of insulin spikes, I'm not worried about it. I eat my fruit early in the day and center it around my workouts, I don't just snack on it. That's what nuts and veggies are for!:)

I agree to each his own...but there are health benefits to reducing insulin spikes such as reducing insulin resistance, decreasing risk of diabetes, slowing down the ageing process, etc..etc...you do not have to be 30% BF to get diabetes or die early of heart disease....look at many of the BB of the past, all with some serious heart problems in their 50s and their eating is centered around multiple insulin spikes a day for increase muscle growth....just something to think about.

For the life of me I know I read a great article on promoting increased fat intake and how it provides the same vitamins and nutrients that most people think they need to get from fruits such as Vit C, A, D, E...etc....but can not remember where I read it.....I'll keep looking....

Scott Clark
05-28-2007, 02:38 PM
Oh I completely understand what you guys are saying, and perhaps my saying that I "would not" give up the 5 servings was a little extreme, it's just that I haven't been able to find that balance yet. As far as training in a depleted state, I've been doing that for the past week and have actually had more energy than my typical fruit PreWO ritual. I've been training first thing in the morning and have been loving it.

The truth is that I'm still learning about the Paleo lifestyle. Over the past 2 years I've lost 110lbs through what was previsouly believed to be proper nutrition, and to be honest my food choices weren't bad except for the grains. I centered the bulk of my diet around lean meat, fruit, eggs, natural PB, and vegetables, but also took in over 200 grams of carbs in the form of oats, WW bread, and brown rice. The more I've learned in regards to PB being problematic and the wealth of information showing the need to reduce and ultimately eliminate grains, the better my performance and overall how I feel has improved.

Haven been a total fatass to now being a much healthier individual, I have a strong understanding of what it takes to "lose weight" and shape up, but I've realized how little I know about optimal lifelong health through a serious diet, not just what can be eaten in (x) amounts to lose (Y) lbs per week. My switch to a Paleo-ish lifestyle has been smoother than anticipated, except that I have been relying on fruit to fuel my energy stores, which I think is residual brainwashing from following the typical carb-it-up bodybuilding diet.

I'm a total nerd about all of this stuff, researching non stop and am salivating over this site as it's chock full of knowledge. I'm very interested in IF, but I want to get my Paleo stuff down to a T before venturing into IF.

Thanks for the insight guys.

Robb Wolf
05-29-2007, 07:22 AM
Scott-
Good stuff! Keep us posted on how things progress.

Robert McBee
05-29-2007, 01:06 PM
"Then one has to consider modern foods. They are far from the paleo stuff of life and even not very close to med foods. Fruits are too sweet now and lack flavor and texture. Vegetables may not have sufficient mineral content and also be lacking in color, flavor, and texture. On the other hand, they are available in great variety and often year round. Moreover, one can get olive oil and wonderful spices, fresh or in a container, all the time.

Why not take advantage of the benefits of this variety and freshness? I do.

As you have seen from the many meals I have put up on the site, I go for color, texture, and freshness in all I cook. This implies a high antioxidant content and diversification in toxins and minerals. My carbs come from water-containing plants, almost exclusively. This means fresh vegetables and fruits. I do not juice vegetables or fruits (sorry Jack La Laine) because 1. it is better to chew, and 2. juicing breaks the cell walls and significantly increases the glycemic index because it increases surface area relative to mass, permitting better access of the enzymes that convert plant starch to sugar. (This is a major problem with white flour because milling creates a small particle of almost pure starch.)

The other Mediterranean aspect of my eating is the pleasure and simple enjoyment of preparing flavorful, colorful meals. And eating them without haste or TV. I cook to music and eat to music or to enjoy company when I have it. Dinner was always a special time for my wife and I.

Finally, there is the temporal pattern
of EF eating. Never three squares a day all the time. Skipping meals is just fine. Even alternating days of little food with days a good deal of food is healthful. But, never gorging, just eating to a comfortable level. A huge meal followed by a big desert (just this one time) is an enormous shock to your metabolism. You will get such a big rush of insulin that you will turn off insulin receptors. It is like sun exposure: one big shock from a real, all-day burn is far worse for your skin (and your whole system) than more frequent moderate exposure.

Eating 5 or 6 or more times a day (to stay in positive nitrogen balance) is plain dumb (read my post on gene expression). You will build less, not more muscle, because you turn down gene expression and you sabotage your insulin sensitivity."

--Art DeVany


I like DeVany's take on this stuff. I can't sync Paleo with Zone ratios for the sheer volume. 40% carbs coming from green vegetables for a 15-16 blocker is a literal mountain of veg and I could never consistently eat that much. Trying to break down all that plant fiber makes me feel bloated and I suspect overworks the digestive system. Robb's rec for subbing fat for carb blocks works great.