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Greg Davis
06-09-2007, 09:49 AM
It occurred to me that while relying on fat as my primary fuel source, I haven't put much thought in to when the ideal time might be to take big servings of fat. Maybe its a non-issue. But of concern is that when I down a lot of fat at a meal sometimes I worry about that "drowning out" the best digestion of the protein. Would it make sense to tone down the fat when eating a particular large serving of meat and increase on meals where protein is relatively lower?

Also does anyone bother with meals that are just veggie+fat? I played with that a bit but found it not productive for me..

Steve Liberati
06-09-2007, 10:02 AM
Protein at every meal, no exceptions there (at least for me).

I also try to minimize my fat intake when eating a regular meal as I'm always hesistant to overstuff myself and spoil the effects of a low gi, healthy, well-balanced, low insulin producing meal.

Usually booster my fat intake by snacking on nuts, seeds, avocados, and paleo chocolate balls (my favorite) in between meals throughout the day.

Greg Davis
06-09-2007, 10:19 AM
I think the Body Ecology Diet book made me cautious about combining too much fat with meat. There is a lot of bs in that book though mixed in with the good stuff so I'm not sure how serious to take it.

One thing that I do is usually start my meal by eating the meat first then the veggies+fat and plus keep any major "fat downing" (ie. tablespoons of olive oil and/or CLO etc.) to the end of the meal. The thinking is that this gives the protein a bit of a head start but I have no idea if this is effective or not- total speculation.

Garrett Smith
06-09-2007, 11:47 AM
Greg, I don't concern myself with high fat + protein at all. Seems fine to me. Sometimes the BED is overly sensitive to food combining, especially because I believe they are dealing with folks who have ruined their gallbladders due to gluten intolerance. They don't deal with any fat well, much less with high amounts of protein.

I've learned a lot since the BED, and while I still agree with many things in the book, I've basically simplified things to:

What to eat:
Paleo foods plus cultured Paleo-friendly foods minus nightshades.

Food combining:
Eat your meat first.
Don't eat high amounts of starch or sugar with high amounts of protein (basically, eat your meat and veggies together).
If you're going to eat non-Paleo or mix proteins and carbs, take some enzymes and maybe a little HCl.

That's about it.

I personally don't waste my time or effort with veggie + fat meals.

Greg Davis
06-09-2007, 03:56 PM
Hmm so its good to hear some second opinions about the protein+fat because I've never noticed it messing up my digestion but was cautious because of the BED advice and also because I'm a huge Devany reader and he never seems to go overboard with the fat. My thoughts are that about 5-6 tbs (70-84 g) is about my ceiling for one sitting depending on how active I've been. Most often I'm eating less than that but I wouldn't flinch much at consuming that much in one serving. But again thats not based on much other than my speculation on what is optimal for health/digestion.

Yeah I tried veggie+fat meals a few times after reading BED because it advised to eat most of your protein by mid afternoon but have thrown that out the window.. experimented with the cultured foods thing including the coconut kefir and basically what Ive held on to is I do make batches of my own cultured red cabbage+sea vegetables in a jar (its just so easy to do, covers off the probiotics, adds a unique color to my veggie intake, and has a great shelf life) which I serve often with my meals.

The kefir I'm going to give up on just because its too time consuming vs. the benefits (plus I find it tastes too sweet even if left for a long time). I still have some left over duo culture so I might try applying it to my cold-brewed batches of green tea with a little honey to feed it- I don't think this would take as much time/effort and I'm drinking the tea anyway.. we'll see how that goes.

I wish I knew of a way to gauge if I'm getting enough probiotics through my cultured veggies and if adding it to my tea would be overkill.. I think what will work is to try to have either a small serving of cultured veggies OR a little bit of a cultured drink with most meals.

Garrett Smith
06-10-2007, 08:14 PM
Greg,
You could get some G.T.'s Synergy kombucha as a starter culture, and then make yourself some green tea kombucha.

The directions that I started with are here:
http://users.chariot.net.au/~dna/kombucha.htm

Basically, 1 Tbsp sugar source to each cup of tea, with a ounce or two of starter (kombucha already made). Much cheaper than the kefir, and easier to make.

It's hard to overdo probiotics, I actually don't know if that could really be done. I think you'll be fine with the cultured veggies on a regular basis, along with some other sources as they come about in your diet.

Greg Everett
06-10-2007, 09:04 PM
Doc - I'm curious about what you said regarding gall bladder damage due to grain consumption. Is this something that's reversible or at least improvable? Or more generally, is it possible to significantly improve the fat tolerance of an individual who is presently intolerant to any degree?

Greg Davis
06-11-2007, 01:20 AM
Garrett- I'd like to try that but I'll have to find a Canadian source for the starter culture- GTs stuff is only available in the US I think.

Greg- Good question, given what I know now its painful to think about what I did to myself for most of my life. Meals for me after school used to be bags of cookies, mac&cheese, anything from a box. And oh god the amount of breakfast cereal.. Wonder if I'll ever be able to utilize fat like I would've if I had been eating decent from the get-go.

Daniel Miller
06-11-2007, 08:05 AM
Hey Dr G,

I had the same question as Greg.

Garrett Smith
06-11-2007, 12:29 PM
Greg and Daniel,
I do believe that the gallbladder damage is very reversible, with time and proper nutrition. This goes along with most gluten-induced diseases--take out the gluten completely, the body starts healing itself.

As for the fat intolerant, I give them some ox bile. This is mandatory, IMO, for those (typically women) who have had their gallbladders removed. This is to be taken at any meal or snack that contains any amount of fat (especially when they take their fish oil!!!).

Gallbladder issues also tend to accompany toxicity (metals and solvents), as the gallbladder is a storage tank for the liver's dump of bile (the liver puts toxic stuff into the bile to be excreted in the feces). Marinate an organ in toxic stuff long enough, it gets diseased.

Michael Winker
06-12-2007, 09:47 PM
Dr. G. Could you suggest more reading pertaining to ox bile for those who have had their gall bladder removed?

Thanks for taking the time.

Mike

ps. When are you gonna write a book? Cause I'm ready to buy.

Garrett Smith
06-13-2007, 07:35 AM
Michael,
I don't know of further reading on ox bile. A quick search came up with this from Sally Fallon: http://nourishedmagazine.com.au/blog/articles/gallbladder-disease

Basically, we need a burst of bile when we eat fatty meals. The liver makes a trickle of bile all day long, which is typically stored in the GB until needed, then it is all dumped at once.

No GB, no stored bile for big fatty meals, and incredibly poor fat digestion occurs. This leads to symptoms of fat deficiencies and maldigestion.

Ox bile is simply a way of getting a "bolus" of bile when one eats a lot of fat. There really is no substitute once the GB is gone.

I consider gastroenterology to be the most incompetent specialty in medicine as a general rule, for these three reasons:
1) Not recommending bile supplements to those who have had their GB removed (this is tantamount to malpractice in my opinion).
2) Using the current (>50 years old!!!) method to diagnose celiac disease. This is because, IMO, they don't want to actually discover how many people (as in ALL of them) are actually gluten intolerant!!! That would be really bad for both the medical and food industry's bottom lines (as in people wouldn't be anywhere near as sick).
3) Not changing people's diets in the proper way, as the FIRST line of treatment. If one has a chronic gut problem, they have a chronic diet problem.

If there is a gastro doc out there who reads this and doesn't practice like the above, you already know that you are going against "standard of care", that you get atypical results with your patients who listen (as in they get better), your colleagues don't agree or understand what you do, and that the above comments don't apply to you regarding incompetence.

Had to rant there for a second. I find GI issues so easy to deal with in patients who are willing to do what I ask of them--no fancy imaging or scopes up/down body cavities necessary.

Michael Winker
06-13-2007, 07:22 PM
Thanks again Doc.

By the way, you dodged the book question.

Wink

Garrett Smith
06-14-2007, 08:08 AM
Michael,
I can't even seem to get a single article written (my apologies Greg and Robert), much less a book.

I think I'd have to have someone following me around all day with a recorder in order for me to get my thoughts down...that's kind of what I use message boards for...they give me sparks of topics to get some ideas down...

Also, even though most books don't have much original stuff in them, I wonder if I simplify things down to the point that I wouldn't be able to fill a small book with them...