PDA

View Full Version : IF and Meal Replacement Shakes


Jeremy Jones
10-23-2006, 03:48 PM
I know they are to be avoided:rolleyes:

But I am looking for another 'easy' meal that I can drink quickly that will be super efficient and nutrient rich. I find that when I am in a hurry (which is about 98.3% of the time), I end up with crappy foods and I pay the price (It doesn't jive with my IF). I would think that one of the benefits of shakes is that you can make it have exactly the right nutrients and carb/prot/fat balance (if taste isn't the primary objective).

What ingredients / additives can I get to put into a shake to give me a very fast meal that is waaay better than working with 'bad' foods? (I am talking protein powders, fats, whatever)


If I could premix a batch that would be good for a couple days that would be perfect.

Greg Everett
10-23-2006, 04:31 PM
I know they are to be avoided:rolleyes:

Yes, but that's in an ideal set of circumstances, and that doesn't apply to many of us. I use supplemental protein multiple times a day and there's no way I would be able to do what I do nutritionally without it.

That said, there are a lot of shitty supplements out there, so you do have to be discerning.

I like MRM's Metabolic Whey for a pure protein supplement, although I'd prefer egg protein, but haven't yet found any hydrolyzed. You can dump in a bunch of coconut milk or nut butter to bump up the calorie content. If you want to get some carbs in there too, oatmeal is an easy addition although clearly not the greatest choice in terms of quality, but again, this is not going to be ideal food any way you look at it.

You can also drop in some baking soda to help neutralize the acidity of the shake.

Jeremy Jones
10-24-2006, 02:37 PM
You can also drop in some baking soda to help neutralize the acidity of the shake.

never thought of that. Cool.

So whey is the only good protein source? (until egg ones get better) Should I worry about the negative aspects of dairy with MRM's whey?

Greg Everett
10-24-2006, 03:29 PM
Egg is good, but like I said, it's hard to find one that a) doesn't have sucralose or aspartame b) can be taken in large quantities without pooping your drawers.

I don't do any dairy other than MRM whey--I've found no digestive or inflammatory problems with it like I have with other whey products.

Stuart Mather
10-24-2006, 07:16 PM
You can also drop in some baking soda to help neutralize the acidity of the shake.

Hi Greg. Doesn't stomach chyme need to be highly acidic (hydrochloric) to be able to initiate protein digestion. I'm having a hard time understanding the logic of simplistic pH analogies like putting bicarb into medium that is designed to be low pH as somehow helping net acid load. Also I'm not sure of the biochemistry of this but citric acid and ascetic acid leave an alkaline residue or ash when they are metabolized in the human body.

Stuart.

Greg Everett
10-25-2006, 07:56 AM
stuart - you bring up a couple good points.

yes, protein digestion is initiated in the stomach, which is a very low pH environment--but i believe this is primarily to break whole food proteins into long peptides, i.e. break up collagenous material, etc. Something like 15% of the protein is hydrolyzed in the stomach.

The rest of the digestion occurs in the small intestine with enzymes in an alkaline environment--this is the bulk of the hydrolysis, and gets the protein down to tri and dipeptides and free amino acids.

So, with a hydrolyzed protein supplement, the stomach/adic portion of the digestion is basically unecessary, and so whatever alkalinizing effect the baking soda has on the gastric environment isn't a problem.

As far as the baking soda "neutralizing the acidity" of the protein, this was probably a poor choice of words on my part. "Balance" would have been better--the protein (and oatmeal) has a positive PRAL and the baking soda as a negative PRAL. So it's like eating vegetables with your steak--balancing acid-forming foods with alkaline-forming foods to try to reduce the net acid load of the diet.

this is definitely not my area of expertise, so someone please feel free to correct me if I'm just talking shit.

Robb Wolf
10-25-2006, 03:25 PM
Stuart-
My acid/base chemistry always sucked but with citrate:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citric_acid
And acetate:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetic_acid
bring a hydrogen ion (H+) to the body and then the carbon skeleton can be metabolized via the Krebs cycle…but I’m unclear ass to HOW that hydrogen ion is removed from action other than being buffered by the bodies store of…well, buffers.

Jeremy Jones
10-26-2006, 03:50 PM
What about adding a tiny bit of "organic" honey to a shake?

What other types of foods go good in shakes? All I ever end up using is banannas.

Stuart Mather
10-27-2006, 10:07 AM
Stuart-
My acid/base chemistry always sucked but with citrate:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citric_acid
And acetate:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetic_acid
bring a hydrogen ion (H+) to the body and then the carbon skeleton can be metabolized via the Krebs cycle…but I’m unclear ass to HOW that hydrogen ion is removed from action other than being buffered by the bodies store of…well, buffers.

Yeah it had me stumped too. Until I read that the hydrogen ions in citric acid (and ascetic acid) are expired in carbonic acid by the lungs. Not just a few either. More than enough to make the net metabolic action of these two acids alkalizing. One article mentioned that you can easily prove this by testing urine ph an hour after consuming either citric or ascetic acid (vinegar) and it will have become more basic. To me, this makes perfect evolutionary sense. Citric acid was (is) a common component of most digestible vegetation. It's no evolutionary mistake that the citric acid metabolic cycle is so important to almost all mammalian metabolism. The power of the kidneys to express excess acidity is indeed limited. But the respiratory potential for excess carbonic acid loss is prodigious. Even an almost imperceptible change in the depth of breathing will substantially alter the amount of carbonic acid expelled. The whole notion of 'on board' buffering of net acidity by alkaline reserves has always struck me as a little simplistic. We are definitely not a closed system. In fact I'd hazard a guess that the reason the kidneys capacity to expel excess acidity is so limited in evolutionary terms is that the potential loss of respiratory carbonic acid was so formidable.
This is not to say that high chloride intakes (in the modern diet either sodium or potassium chloride) are not net acidity problematic, because (in the terminology of your wikipedia source) chlorine bound hydrogen ions are not easily accessible by the carbonic acid cycle. But those in citric acid and ascetic acid are. So if you've got a high protein diet and also a high salt (either sodium or potassium chloride) intake, I can well concede that on board alkaline reserve buffering of the acidity of chlorine is necessary.



While I was researching this I came across a really interesting study on the endurance/power benefits of supplementation with sodium bicarbonate/ potassium bicarb and/or potassium citrate (which just happens to be the result of combining, you guessed it;) citric acid and potassium bicarbonate). Something to do with mitigating the effects of lactic acid buildup. Do you know anything about this?

Stuart.

Scott Kustes
10-27-2006, 10:19 AM
What about adding a tiny bit of "organic" honey to a shake?

What other types of foods go good in shakes? All I ever end up using is banannas.
All berries, stone fruits (peaches, etc), pineapples, and oranges are some that I've used. You can make some yummy shakes with mixing of fruits, such as orange/pineapple, strawberry/pineapple, peach/orange/pineapple. A load of mixed berries goes down nicely too.

Steve Shafley
10-27-2006, 11:03 AM
Why just whey? I can see Greg's point, due to his sensitivities, but many have no problems with varying their protein sources.

MPI (milk protein isolates) are really coming on strong right now, based on the satiation effect they have. They are a blend of wheys and caseinates. More expensive. Supposedly have a chalking taste, maybe not the best mouth feel.

Micellar casein is another decent choice, you do get this in the MPI too.

Another solution is egg whites, a buddy of mine bought something like 20# of egg whites from a company, and would use the egg whites in the blender for his quick protein source. By the end, this was making him gag, but your mileage might vary.

Why not eat a pound of grassfed beef or buffalo for that matter? I used protein powders of various types for well over a decade, and when I stopped, I didn't have any performance drops, despite not having made up the difference in whole food proteins. Granted, I would imagine that damn near everyone has their diet dialed in better than me, and without a buffer of bodyfat to pull energy from when needed, there could be some performance declines.

Jeremy Jones
10-27-2006, 11:49 AM
I haven't heard of MPIs before. Got any source reccomendations?

I have not had any Micellar casein protein either. Again, what brand and where can I get it?



I would love to eat a chunk of meat instead of a shake. The problem is my schedule. Mondays and Wednesdays I leave the house at 5:30am and get home at 12am or 1 that night (Park workout, Engineering, teach M.A., M.A. workout and WOD). Carrying food has become a problem and we all know how impossible it is to purchase good food quickly and easily (no drive-thru grass fed beef sources around here that I know of).

Just carrying a days worth of food can be problematic when you ride a motorcycle most days.

A MR shake would make this a lot easier for me. Not to mention, I know I am not getting food from the best sources (too much fruit, regular beef, some lunch meat, tortillas pretty regularly and dairy in small amounts regularly).

Steve Shafley
10-27-2006, 12:14 PM
The Protein Factory
True Protein (depending if you are on the East coast/West coast)
Allthewhey.com
Also, at DPSnutrition.net, the Xtreme Formulations protein formula was recommended to me.

The first two places are custom blending places.

It sounds to me like a micellar/MPI protein would be nice for your situation.

Chris Forbis
10-27-2006, 03:30 PM
Why not eat a pound of grassfed beef or buffalo for that matter?

I do this (beef) for both breakfast and dinner. Highly recommended.

Greg Everett
10-27-2006, 03:55 PM
Why just whey? I can see Greg's point, due to his sensitivities, but many have no problems with varying their protein sources.

The problem is not varying sources--this is a must. The problem is with consuming obscene amounts of protein--like 400g/day at 200 lbs BW. I have encountered few individuals who can tolerate this digestively without hydrolyzed protein supplements. Believe me, if I could find a hydrolyzed egg protein powder, I would gladly use it.

Why not eat a pound of grassfed beef or buffalo for that matter?

Assuming around 7g protein/oz, that's 112 g protein--meaning to get that 400 g/day, you'd need to eat 3.6 pounds of meat. Maybe I'm a lightweight, but that's a lot of chewing--I don't have the time or the patience!

Steve Shafley
10-27-2006, 07:46 PM
Yeah, that's a lot.

But, do you need that much protein?

Have you personally noticed a performance difference between, oh say, 200g of protein daily or 400g of protein daily?

Because, I gotta say, I probably eat 160-180 daily, and carry more lean tissue than most people I meet who don't use AAS. I cannot be called lean, but I am not obsese either.

Does the protein requirement go up as the carb drop? Shouldn't the fat go up as carbs drop (good fats)?

Note that I am not being a dickhead, asshole, or rabble-rouser right now (despite my stellar reputation as such), and that I am just asking these questions to help further along the discussion and the understanding of the nutritional requirements of a power athlete.

In fact, that would be an interesting thread right there...talking about the nutritional requirements of a power athlete...a thrower, a lifter, maybe even a jumper or sprinter as well.

Greg Everett
10-27-2006, 08:01 PM
400 g is more than I would eat for maintenance, for sure. At the moment, though, I'm gaining back a bunch of weight and then a little extra, and I find the uber doses of protein helpful for this--but that's only 1600 kcals, and I'm eating a whole lot more than that a day, so the % of protein isn't actually as high as it seems, more like 40% or so.

Robb Wolf
10-28-2006, 12:40 PM
Stuart-
We vent CO2 at the lungs and if we ingest excess acid (H+) we shift file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Roberto/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image002.jpg things from H2CO3 ---> H2O+ CO2(g)...this is part of that buffering capacity I mentioned. It deals with over all pH for the short term but it shifts the relative % of CO2 disolved in the system to a lower P> Pressure CO2. This is the short term solution for all low pH conditions and over time will be noted as a "respiratory shift" to balance these issues. Long term this will affect renal output and is characterized as a "renal shift", but unless we introduce soem form of buffering agent we are still stuck with the net acid load. If I'm missing somethign here, my apologies but once we ingest either acid or base we see a shift in net equilibria consistent with the dpth of buffering capacity of the overall system.

Now in the casess of Potasium citrate/bicarb this is the introduction of a net base load which is pretty confusing why it does anything to enhace performance with what we have recently learned aobut lactate and its role as a fuel and H+ concentrations apparently not affecting powerproduction:http://www.powerrunning.com/Exercise%20Physiology/Do%20High%20Lactate%20Concentrations%20Actualy%20I mprove%20Performance.htm



Yeah it had me stumped too. Until I read that the hydrogen ions in citric acid (and ascetic acid) are expired in carbonic acid by the lungs. Not just a few either. More than enough to make the net metabolic action of these two acids alkalizing. One article mentioned that you can easily prove this by testing urine ph an hour after consuming either citric or ascetic acid (vinegar) and it will have become more basic. To me, this makes perfect evolutionary sense. Citric acid was (is) a common component of most digestible vegetation. It's no evolutionary mistake that the citric acid metabolic cycle is so important to almost all mammalian metabolism. The power of the kidneys to express excess acidity is indeed limited. But the respiratory potential for excess carbonic acid loss is prodigious. Even an almost imperceptible change in the depth of breathing will substantially alter the amount of carbonic acid expelled. The whole notion of 'on board' buffering of net acidity by alkaline reserves has always struck me as a little simplistic. We are definitely not a closed system. In fact I'd hazard a guess that the reason the kidneys capacity to expel excess acidity is so limited in evolutionary terms is that the potential loss of respiratory carbonic acid was so formidable.
This is not to say that high chloride intakes (in the modern diet either sodium or potassium chloride) are not net acidity problematic, because (in the terminology of your wikipedia source) chlorine bound hydrogen ions are not easily accessible by the carbonic acid cycle. But those in citric acid and ascetic acid are. So if you've got a high protein diet and also a high salt (either sodium or potassium chloride) intake, I can well concede that on board alkaline reserve buffering of the acidity of chlorine is necessary.



While I was researching this I came across a really interesting study on the endurance/power benefits of supplementation with sodium bicarbonate/ potassium bicarb and/or potassium citrate (which just happens to be the result of combining, you guessed it;) citric acid and potassium bicarbonate). Something to do with mitigating the effects of lactic acid buildup. Do you know anything about this?

Stuart.

Robb Wolf
10-28-2006, 12:43 PM
Steve-
That would be a good thread. I think John Berardi tackled this topic and it brings up some interesting points.

Stuart Mather
10-29-2006, 10:23 PM
Robb, I think we're missing something. All medicinal systemic / urinary alkalizers contain substantial amounts of citric acid. Sometimes tartaric acid as well. These are medications that are meant to be taken in high doses (upwards of ten gms of citric acid) for many days. They do also contain equivalent amounts of bicarbonate. But if citric acid had a net acid load effect, why would a systemic ALKALIZER contain them at all.

I really do want to understand this better:) .

Stuart.

Robb Wolf
10-30-2006, 01:31 PM
Stuart-
Second that on understanding the acid base stuff. This stuff was voodoo for me in physical chemistry...I can make the equations work but I'm still stumped.

In the case of the citrate with bicarb however, if you have more buffering activity from the bicarb (not hard to have a greater net alkalinizing load as the potassium bicarb is s small molecule compared to citrate) any acidity introduced via the citrate is more than compensated for. In this scenario the citrate acts as a very readily available energy substrate, while the bicarb is the buffering agent. If the citrate did create a net alkaline environment the bicarb would not be necessary.

Can you track down an example product so we can look at it?

Stuart Mather
10-30-2006, 09:18 PM
Robb, what do you make of this:
"The combined organic acids or salts consumed in food are generally changed in the body into alkaline carbonates, thereby increasing the alkalinity of the blood and secretions. The uncombined acids either form alkaline carbonates, or are oxidized into carbon dioxide and water."

The terminal product of the combustion, the acid radical of calcium salts of combustible organic acids, is carbonic acid and is excreted through the lungs and requires no bases to assist in its excretion. The entire calcium content of the salt remains at the free disposal of the body as a base. The same is true of the potassium, sodium and magnesium contained in the salts."

Everything I read about this seems to draw a clear distinction between weak organic acids like citric, ascetic, and to a lesser extent, malic acid and stronger acids, such as sulhuric and hydrochloric, in terms of their having either a net alkaline or acid reaction in the body. At the moment, I assume that the elimination of extra carbonic acid (during normal breathing) from the oxidization of these weak organic acids never even makes it as far as initiating any 'renal shift'.

We'll get to the bottom of this.

Stuart.

Stuart Mather
10-30-2006, 10:04 PM
Robb, here is a pretty exhaustive coverage of the biochemistry of human pH homeostasis:
http://navigator.medschool.pitt.edu/UL_media%5C674615883.doc
After about the third reading of it I started to realize that the lower limit of urinary pH was not a limiting factor on total excess acid excretion at all. Ammonium is produced and excreted in potential amounts that would appear to far outweigh even the most 'acidifying' diet, without urinary pH having to be reduced below 4.7 (the level below which serious uro-genital tract damage would ensue). I'm starting to think the whole 'metabolic acidosis can be induced by acid forming foods' is about as vast and pervasive a crock as the lipid hypothesis. Perhaps then, all the concern about high acid load traditional Inuit diets is a similar crock. I would draw your attention to the 'Bellevue' experiment with Stefannson and Anderson eating a high fat all meat diet in middle age for a year, without the benefit of Inuit heritage, without any adverse bone density consequences whatsoever. Once again I would draw your attention to something we can perhaps agree on. Namely that human pH regulation is NOT a closed system. If it was, of course every excess hydrogen ion would have to be buffered. But excess hydrogen ions resulting from any net acid load diet are just peed or breathed out. Note that there is nothing pathological about peeing and breathing out excess acidity. That's how our lungs and kidneys evolved.

Note that I think a glimmer of appreciation of this can be gained from considering the converse. I seldom hear anyone voicing any concern about eating too many alkalizing foods. That's because the obviously exquisite metabolic machinery of pH homeostasis can just as effectively deal with that environmental eventuality as well. When hunting was poor and paleo folks had to put up with (often bitter and unpalatable ) pre horticultural vegetation for months at a time, they weren't about to get pins and needles and dizziness from metabolic alkalosis. Their pee (eventually) compensated with expelling unrequired bicarbonate and/or their exhalation contained hardly any carbonic acid.



Anyway I'm not trying to be oppositional:). Just curious.


Stuart

Steve Shafley
10-31-2006, 05:42 AM
We might be coming full circle back to the fact that the so-called "alkaline" foods tend to be greens, and that greens are beneficial to health when included in the diet.

My review of this topic hasn't been as in-depth as yours, Stuart, but I can certainly appreciate the contrarian stance.

Robb Wolf
10-31-2006, 12:52 PM
Stuart-
The above piece mentions SALTS of weak acids. Way different beast than ingesting a weak acid. The salts ARE actually bases! This is my point: if we ingest that H+ ion HOW do we get rid of it? What are the normal physiological set points we are wired for? Everything you are mentioning appears to be including some form of base...does this make sense or do I need some more coffee?:)

I think this is a subtle issue with regards to health and would tend to manifest over many years. The Stefanson experiment only lasted a year so it would be tough to draw many conclusions there about long-term acid/base balance. Cordain has some research that shows simply introducing a bit of sodium bicarbonate into the diets of osteoporotic elderly females reversed calcium loss COMPLETELY.

I think it's clear that there are several redundant systems that monitor not only acid/base balance but also electrolyte status (somewhat intermixed). That said, Ingestion of excessive acid (or base...or in the case of uncontrolled vomiting the removal of acid) could have serious consequences for health depending upon the severity of the situation.

Stuart Mather
10-31-2006, 11:13 PM
Stuart-
The above piece mentions SALTS of weak acids. Way different beast than ingesting a weak acid. The salts ARE actually bases!

Robb, on the contrary :' The uncombined acids either form alkaline carbonates, or are oxidized into carbon dioxide and water." He's not referring here to salts of weak acids at all.


This is my point: if we ingest that H+ ion HOW do we get rid of it? [/quote]


You are still seem to be referring to the human pH balancing act as if we are a closed system. How do we get rid of that ingested H+ ion? We pee it out or we breath it out. And if we have so much excess acid (say from a high so called 'net acid load' diet like, perhaps, traditionally living Inuit or Masai) and our water intake is not enough to flush it out at above pH 4.7 , our equisitely engineered renal system starts peeing out ammonium too. Kind of like a swimming pool having a particular actual pH but considerable TOTAL alkalinity. Except in this case we are talking about a particular urine pH, but a high total acidity (i.e. lots and lots of surplus H+ ions)

What are the normal physiological set points we are wired for? Everything you are mentioning appears to be including some form of base...does this make sense or do I need some more coffee?:)

I think this is a subtle issue with regards to health and would tend to manifest over many years.

I think the point is that we are physiologically so carefully wired for a particular pH set point that if the renal system of homo sapiens was not so wonderfully engineered to cope easily with any conceivable dietary acid load, it would in fact manifest as a problem very quickly. Robb, human pee is always acid. So is our exhaled repiration. Wether we eat lots of plants or we don't. The byproducts of human metabolism are acid. We only have one stomach after all. I'm suggesting that the range of ph dietary load the human renal system is designed by evolution to cope with (even over a lifetime;) ) is far in excess of even an all meat diet.
I'm not sure about the chloride factor. Maybe a highly acidifying diet (meat and grains) combined with a high chloride intake does strain the limits. My guess is that phytates in grains (calcium fixing) coupled with their net acid load, are much more likely to be a pH homeostasis confounder than any amount of meat. The other point worth noting is that cultures that traditionally ate a lot of animal food didn't have particularly high protein intakes. They got their energy from fat. Inuit only eat moderate amounts of protein. Ditto the Masai. But boy do Inuit like their seal Blubber. And fat metabolism is pH neutral.


The Stefanson experiment only lasted a year so it would be tough to draw many conclusions there about long-term acid/base balance. Cordain has some research that shows simply introducing a bit of sodium bicarbonate into the diets of osteoporotic elderly females reversed calcium loss COMPLETELY.

Actually it reversed URINARY CALCIUM loss. The osteoporosis itself went on unabated. Otherwise the osteoporotic elderly wouldn't still be spending a fortune on 'Phosmax', having switched overnight to breathtakingly cheap potassium bicarbonate. Osteoporosis is a VERY complex problem. Net acid load diets are, I think, largely irrelevant (for the simple reason that the human body was designed to easily cope with them - one last time, we are NOT a closed system. 'Buffering' goes on constantly. But at the end of the day excess acid is peed/breathed out, and buffer[bicarbonate] is reabsorbed for the next shift). The subtle endocrinal disaster produced by ten thousand years of moving away from our paleolithic heritage of eating a low carb, mod protein, high fat diet, and compounding that disaster by consuming prodigious amounts of chloride, are IMHO much more likely to explain osteoporosis.

Stuart.

Robb Wolf
11-01-2006, 02:39 PM
AAAAha! Ok, you finally hammered it into my noggin! I was definitely thinking closed system here. I think you are right on about the chloride issue and phytate binding to base-potentiating metal ions.

It is very true that the Inuit had a strong instinct to avoid excessive protein. It's interesting to note also that ketosis tends to minimize nitrogen loss, thus decreasing protein need regarding structural issues, assuming adequate caloric intake.

Stuart, thanks for hanging in and getting me on the right track here!

Scott Kustes
11-01-2006, 03:13 PM
It's comforting to know that even Robb must be taught at times. :D

Craig Cooper
11-01-2006, 08:54 PM
so the take home message I'm getting from all of this is that I don't need to worry about the acid/base balance of my diet (assuming I'm eating paleo), because my body is more than adequately equipped to expell any excess in either direction.

Stuart Mather
11-01-2006, 09:29 PM
Thanks for hangin in there yourself Robb. I'm certainly no urologist, and renal shift is a pretty complex process. But thinking of it as an open system does seem to me to make the range of (healthy) dietary acid loads even sustained over a lifetime much wider.

I can tell you unequivocably that I feel much healthier after having considerably slashed my chloride intake. In fact I have to thank you in turn for pointing out that the sodium factor in sodium chloride is not the problem. Sodium is a base. For most of the time I've been on a VLC/ mod protein/high fat diet (nearly four years now), I've been studiously substituting potassium chloride for ordinary sodium chloride thinking that because it was potassium type stuff, it was inherently healthier. In fact I think to satisfy my salt habit, I was consuming far more chloride in the 'sodium free' salt because potassium chloride just doesn't taste as salty. Since your comment (in some other pH homeostasis related thread) about the chloride ion being the problem child, I've discovered that various combinations of herbs and spices more than compensate for choosing to forego salt. I realized recently that a level of chloride enhanced taste that I would have really enjoyed not so long ago, now makes me gasp;) .

On a different tack, I've now been fasting from 8pm to the following 2pm for about a month now, after gradually increasing the fasting period about half an hour daily from my previous VLC lifestyle of pretty much browsing from 10a.m. till bedtime. I've gained slightly more muscle without changing my exercise routine (I can now push up into a free handstand, drop down slowly, and then push once more back up again - very skinny legs help:p ) I think I probably consume far fewer calories with this regime, but I haven't really been keeping a strict record. I guess that makes the CR component of IF not insignifigant, but what I find absolutely fascinating is that IF CR doesn't seem to involve a loss of lean muscle. Athough the take home message from your comment about ketosis being nitrogen sparing (fascinating), in the context of adequate calorie intake may well be that the (at least body composition) benefits of both CRon and IF are magnified considerably by making them low carb. I realize also that none of the IF pundits suggest every day fasting periods are particularly necessary, but I just wanted to see if I would get really comfortable with this approach. Increasingly I seem to actually enjoy the long period without food. Throughout the fast, I swig from an electrolyte replacer/iced tea mix . My energy levels always stay high I think after another month of this I'll go back to making alternate days different length fasts. I think it's interesting that most of the discussion about IF'ing seems to forget that we all fast every day anyway. Most (higher) life forms on this planet are expressly designed to fast for part of every day. I hadn't eaten till about 10a.m for most of my adult life anyway, so I think I'll just adopt a routine of a 12 hr fast for two days and then an 18hr fast every third day. Breakfast is surely just a plot to make people eat more (breakfast cereal) than they otherwise would:rolleyes: .

Stuart.

Stuart Mather
11-01-2006, 10:03 PM
so the take home message I'm getting from all of this is that I don't need to worry about the acid/base balance of my diet (assuming I'm eating paleo), because my body is more than adequately equipped to expell any excess in either direction.

Well I would certainly like to a ask Cordain directly why everything he has ever said about pH homeostasis also seems to be in terms of it being a closed system (i.e H+ ions in must equal H+ ions out). I really get the impression that he decided this must be so, then went looking for evidence of elevated fracture frequency in Inuit populations. If you look at the statistical methods/study design he employed to substantiate this hypothesis, it gives you new respect for the traps lying in wait for well meaning researchers ( in which company Cordain no doubt belongs) who count their chickens before they're hatched;) .

In more direct response to your question, I would think so. But lets not also forget that there are considerable phytonutrient benefits to geen leafy vegetables, and including them as part of a paleo diet is a no brainer. The flipside of this is that the combined horticultural efforts of 10.000 yrs of selective breeding have transformed incalculably the carbohydrate content of almost every edible plant. The fact that the size of the human pancreas has changed little in that time should give us pause in deciding how much of them to include in a health maximizing diet.

Stuart.

Robb Wolf
11-02-2006, 02:09 PM
Stuart-

Phenomenal posts! It is interesting that there appears to be a mild anabolic action to IF, especially when (as you said) coupled with a low-ish carb diet. This was my hope when I put forward the 2 IF pieces in the Pmenu...that brief fasts, smart exercise and a low carb diet could work synergistically to enhance performance, health and longevity. Looking forward to your future posts!

Jeremy Jones
11-02-2006, 03:26 PM
umm. . .

I have been trying to follow the posts, but I just feel like an Inuit at a Punk concert - very confused and my brain hurts.


Can someone break it down for me in 3rd grader terms?


AND can we get back to talking about good meal replacement shakes?:D

Robb Wolf
11-03-2006, 05:49 PM
Jeremy-
I think the gist is :
1-Veggie still real good.
2-Acid load not as large an ogre an perhaps it appeared.
3-Me-very dense.
4-Stuart- Very patient

Yael Grauer
11-03-2006, 07:15 PM
AND can we get back to talking about good meal replacement shakes?:D

Kahlua and vodka. ;) And I really want to make Elvis smoothies sometime... you know, bananas and peanut butter.

In all seriousness, I'm actually looking for meal replacement shake ideas too. I work 11:30-10:30 and I'm in the process of trying to wean myself off of my 11 AM, 4 PM and 11 PM meals and into something that looks like 8 AM, 11 AM and 4 PM (with snacks around 2 and 8, or something.) And the best way to do that is to have a smoothie at 8 so I'll still be hungry by 11.

I was doing fine when I was drinking raw milk... I'd do one cup raw milk, 2 or 3 raw eggs and a half a bag of frozen cherries or blueberries (or strawberries and peaches for variety), sometimes half a banana, sometimes protein powder.

But now I'm trying to see how I do without raw milk for a week or two and water isn't cutting it! :mad: Coconut milk is good on special occasions but I don't want it every morning, and Robb says chocolate is better than orange juice. Oh, and speaking of chocolate--raw cacao powder, while ridiculously expensive, tastes yummy (the fruit will sweeten it up) and is loaded with nutrients.

This hippie I know uses half spinach and mango with raw honey, but I can't get myself to drink vegetables except in soups. Oh, speaking of which, that's the other way I trick myself into eating two breakfasts is by heating up hot water and adding miso soup paste to it. The tea kettle also serves as a secondary alarm clock. ;)

If anybody has other recipes, please share!

Steve Shafley
11-03-2006, 08:45 PM
Chocomine might be something you're interested in, Yael...maybe.

Yael Grauer
11-03-2006, 09:16 PM
Chocomine might be something you're interested in, Yael...maybe.

Tell me more.

Steve Shafley
11-04-2006, 10:48 AM
See the "supplements" section.

Upon reflection, I am not sure why I mentioned it, excep you mentioned cocoa somewhere in there.

Organic espresso + chocomine or cocoa extract + a bit of raw milk or heavy cream whatever you like to drink with your breakfast = mucho deliciousness

If I remember correctly, I tried a concoction of vanilla whey protein, chocomine, and peanut butter and thought it was most delicious.

I haven't had any for years now, but liked it back in 2000 or so....just something that I kind of forgot.

Yael Grauer
11-04-2006, 03:37 PM
Upon reflection, I am not sure why I mentioned it, excep you mentioned cocoa somewhere in there.

I am a total chocolate addict, you may have picked up on that. :) Magnesium has helped reduce my cravings, oh and B vitamins have helped too, and I try my hardest to stick to homemade chocolate with just cocoa powder, honey or agave nectar and coconut oil... and Larabars (Maya Chocolate Change flavor).

I know that both chocolate and orange juice are dopaminergic so that may have something to do with it.

Jeremy--what are you looking for exactly? I have a bunch of Zone-friendly 1-block shake recipes typed up if that would help.

Jeremy Jones
11-06-2006, 02:55 PM
I am looking for "not gross tasting" combos I can try in my blender. Bonus points if they:

A)don't need to be refrigerated
B)the ingredients can last a week in the fridge before I use them in the shake
C)have all the good stuff that a growing athlete such as myself needs

Robb Wolf
11-07-2006, 12:59 PM
Jeremy-
if you go the fat/protein route you can use protein powder, coconut milk, cocoa and s dash of stevia. It will be almost 800cals from thee coconut milk but no refrigeration with any of the ingredients.

Steve Shafley
11-07-2006, 01:37 PM
A note on coconut milk:

Tends to be way cheaper if you have a genuine asian market nearby. Check it out. A chain grocery store carries some Thai brand of coconut milk and sells it for a $1 more than my local asian market.

Jeremy Jones
11-08-2006, 04:49 PM
I appreciate the tip.

(there are a TON of asian markets in the Bay Area).

Steve Shafley
11-08-2006, 07:10 PM
In the middle of Michigan...

Not so many, except there are 2 right by me.

Carl Valle (owns that new athletic training facility in Boston with Cressey and a few others) likes to have his athletes drink micellar casein mixed in coconut milk.