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kevin mckay
06-18-2007, 08:58 PM
I found out I have it, was hoping it was gout but no such luck...
Not sure if it is rheumatoid or ostio but it recently moved from my hands and wrists to my elbows. If anybody has experience with this let me know. I am not sure if it is ok to workout with a joint when it is flaring up.

Dave Wilson
06-19-2007, 05:29 AM
How is the pain on a scale of 1 - 10 ?
Do you eat alot of Soy or Grain or Dairy ?
My family is loaded with Rheumatoid , My Grand Parents on both sides, My mother, I had my first sign of it in my early twenty's. I currently have very few signs of it at 35. Obvious things to avoid are refind foods. Fish oil and probiotics are a must, and stay hydrated. I dont have many flare ups any more. Maybe try some Mobility work if you are having a flare up,unless the pain is a 7 or better, in that case stay as active as you are able.
I just started doing static holds again, Planche, L-sit, handstands and all of there permutations, I always felt like this was helping as it is bringing blood to the area as well as strengthening the surrounding tissue.

Garrett Smith
06-19-2007, 06:03 AM
I'd first suggest the "Arthritis Diet" book from www.noarthritis.com. There's more in it than just the nightshades.

Also, get on plenty of magnesium. I suggest Natural Calm brand.

Elliot Royce
06-19-2007, 07:56 AM
You need to find out whether it's osteo or rheumatoid -- completely different diseases. I had bilateral hip arthritis, which is osteo. I can't advise you on rheumatoid.

Osteoarthritis is a question of wear and tear. You have worn down your cartilage sufficiently so that the bone is rubbing against bone. The body is designed so that this causes pain to prevent you from continuing to wear away bone. You should follow your body's guidance in avoiding activities that create strong pain or pain that does not go away within a short time.

On the other hand -- and this is quite important -- continuing with physical activity is very important. Even with severe hip arthritis, I still played hockey; however, I gave up running. You need to balance the tradeoffs, with the advice of a good doctor.

I think it is possible to slow the progression with a good diet and the right supplements. I found glucosamine/chondroitin/MSM to be very effective. Some studies have questioned its effectiveness but it worked wonders for me. Perhaps it was a placebo but the pain reduction was greater than any of the painkillers. And there was no change in the extent of my arthritis measured by xrays in 4 years.

You should start investigating medical interventions. It may be premature but at least knowing what is possible can help with your state of mind.

Do not allow your life to become too restricted due to arthritis. That is the path to depression. Some pain is perfectly normal and can be managed through the right medicines, exercise and a good state of mind. Just make sure you're not doing things that would increase the damage.

Happy to share other thoughts with you. Osteoarthritis is a difficult disease because there is often no simple cure, but it is possible to manage it.

Mike ODonnell
06-19-2007, 09:50 AM
Osteo - take some glucosamine-chrondotin (sp?), fish oil, cut out sugars....the regular anti-inflammatory stuff

RA - that's an immune system issue...many of my clients with it find relief once they get their gut health in check...probiotics, cutting out allergens like nightshades, gluten..., etc....look into leaky gut syndrome and fixes...

http://www.leakygut.co.uk/Treatments%20for%20leaky%20gut.htm

Dave Van Skike
06-19-2007, 10:12 AM
Osteo - take some glucosamine-chrondotin (sp?), fish oil, cut out sugars....the regular anti-inflammatory stuff

True.

I have osteo, both knees. Above advice is good. Also, keep moving, always. If I go a week without squatting my knees hurt. What Elliot is saying resonates. Find an activity that works pain free with the greatest range of motion, full depth squatting works for me, cycling hurts. XC skiing works, skating doesn't.

William Hunter
06-19-2007, 04:28 PM
I'm pretty sure you're already eating IF Paleo syle, so there will less of a dietary overhaul than you're average guy/gal. The fact that it's moving around sounds more like it's something in the blood vs osteo. BTW, why were you hoping it was gouty arthritis? That shit absolutely sucks. I agree with all of the above. Staying active is the only way to go. Don't let it beat you down.

Garrett Smith
06-19-2007, 04:54 PM
Joint mobility. Lots of it. Do some before every workout, however minimal.

kevin mckay
06-19-2007, 07:49 PM
Pain wakes me up in the morning but is really not that bad, maybe a 2-7 most of the time. It is in my hands wrists and fingers they are totally swollen and stiff in the morning and usually takes about an hour to get full range of motion although the wrist range of motion can be limited all day some times. I get these weird extremely tender lumps under the skin by the joints. It recently moved into my left elbow and I get really sharp pain when I fully extend it so I am not sure if it is ok to pull and push right now.

I do strict paleo
60-80 grams cho/day from fruit and veg (fruit mostly berries)
carlsons fish oil
jarrow glucosamine chrondotin msm
jarrow bone up

Not sure you can do much better than that, do have family members with arthritis I thought it was 90% hereditary not dietary... Will check out noarthritis and maybe the probiotic stuff never heard that. Any hard science on the gut stuff?

The rheumatologist thinks it's rheumatoid because it came on over night is symmetrical and is moving around allot.

Thanks for the info

Garrett Smith
06-20-2007, 06:34 AM
Kevin,
If you want to avoid the rheumatologist's drug cocktail spiral, I'd suggest you contact me about the testing we discussed.

There are many other options than what they have to offer.

Since your diet is relatively clean, a food allergy test is in order. While you may be eating Paleo, you could very well still be reacting to something you eat a lot of.

Basically, I'd suggest we talk. I do lots of work with chronic pain and autoimmune stuff.

Mike ODonnell
06-20-2007, 06:58 AM
Try ditching the sugars in the fruits....even those could be aggravating the issues. Add some other cho from other sources that are not sugar or gluten.

The ACV could help too...cleans up the gut and can also help with any calcium deposits...take it on an empty stomach first thing AM and right before bed....otherwise if you take it with food it will be used for digestive purposes.

Don't get sold on the whole "it's all in your genetics" crap.....my bro in law had "arthritis"/tendoitis/carpal tunnel in his wrist they wanted to operate on....he gave up wheat and it all went away....funny.....and yes, beer is wheat....

kevin mckay
06-20-2007, 07:07 AM
I read the wiki on rheumatoid and freaked http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheumatoid_arthritis

This was encouraging
http://gluten-free.org/hoggan/ra.txt

Dr G yeah some type of comprehensive allergen panel and the toxic metal testing sound like a good idea I will contact you.

Thanks

Robb Wolf
06-21-2007, 05:32 PM
RA- Flares from dairy and of course, wheat. Asymptomatic if the diet is 100%.

Mike ODonnell
06-21-2007, 10:12 PM
Get plenty of sleep....get your immune system back on track....that and gut health....

I recommend Lights Out and anything on Leaky Gut Syndrome to read.....

kevin mckay
06-22-2007, 04:24 PM
Ok,

Other than the bi weekly cheat days I have been grain dairy legume free for almost a year. I do tend to go ape shit on the cheat days so maybe that has been enough. I have cut all cheat days, and will see what happens.

Thanks for all the feedback.

Mike ODonnell
06-22-2007, 07:21 PM
how about probiotics? Need some good bacteria in that gut too.....

kevin mckay
06-23-2007, 07:33 AM
Yeah, Dr G is gona hook me up with some stuff.

Scotty Hagnas
06-23-2007, 10:01 AM
Kevin-

I'd suspect that bi-weekly cheat days are easily enough to bring on issues if you are sensitive. Those foods are still a regular part of your diet, albeit perhaps a smaller part than previously.

I've seen numerous issues not clear up in folks until the cheats are almost nil....unfortunately.

Scotty Hagnas
CrossFit Portland

kevin mckay
06-23-2007, 07:34 PM
Thanks Scotty,

I have eliminated them altogether.

Thanks

kevin mckay
06-26-2007, 12:07 PM
RA- Flares from dairy and of course, wheat. Asymptomatic if the diet is 100%.

That is extreemly encouraging as getting to 100% is a piece of cake.
(Pun intended)
Do you have any articles in regard to this?

kevin mckay
06-27-2007, 11:50 AM
I am guessing all alcohol is out to right?

Robb Wolf
06-27-2007, 04:46 PM
A little beer (wheat free), wine or tequila over ice with lime juice (precious...) never seens to bother me. Get asymptomatic, then add that stuff and see how it goes.

Garrett Smith
06-27-2007, 06:10 PM
As Robb says, symptom-free, then take your cheats (and pay close attention to how they affect you).

My drink of choice, much like Robb's, is a double Patron on the rocks with two limes...not too often though!

kevin mckay
07-06-2007, 01:47 PM
ok I have been 100% off all grain and dairy since 6/22 had green beans Sunday but other than that 100% no cheats.

Dr G has me on some
high potency omega 3
potassium
probiots

Carb intake is at <= 40-60/day grean leafy veg and some berries

Currently pushing and pulling are out :(
I will post any changes in symptoms

I am sleeping 8-9 hr a day

Reumatologist wants me to take anti malaria medicine?
going to wait on that

Garrett Smith
07-06-2007, 05:09 PM
Kevin,
It's not potassium, it's magnesium...

As for the anti-malaria medicine, I'd do some labs before punishing your liver with that one...

Has the rheumatologist run any labs to confirm/deny an autoimmune component to your situation?

Yael Grauer
07-06-2007, 06:18 PM
Kevin, have you ever tried Wobenzym?

kevin mckay
07-06-2007, 09:35 PM
Kevin,
It's not potassium, it's magnesium...

As for the anti-malaria medicine, I'd do some labs before punishing your liver with that one...

Has the rheumatologist run any labs to confirm/deny an autoimmune component to your situation?


Yeah 2 times my rheumatoid factor is 37 and I guess baseline range is 7-14

kevin mckay
07-06-2007, 09:36 PM
Kevin, have you ever tried Wobenzym?

No but that sounds pretty fun! What is it?

Yael Grauer
07-06-2007, 09:51 PM
It's just systemic enzymes from papaya and pineapple, iirc. I've had really good luck with it for inflammation, and have heard (favorable) anecdotal stories about its use in arthritis. Check out the website: http://www.wobenzym.com/

kevin mckay
07-06-2007, 11:10 PM
Thanks Yael, I will check it out.

Yael Grauer
07-07-2007, 11:14 AM
Keep us posted!!

kevin mckay
07-11-2007, 07:43 AM
Well things may be improving but not 100% sure because it usually cycles.

I have been 100% grain/dairy free since 06-21-2007 I did eat green beans and hummus once each but thats it, not sure if legumes are an issue here as well.
I have cut my multi vitamins that had trace amounts of
soy lecithin
alfalfa
yeast
is that overkill?

I have been using what Dr G prescribed.

Question, can I eat real butter?

If things stay the same or improve I will try working out with my arms again next week!

Cheers!

Robb Wolf
07-11-2007, 09:41 AM
Keven-
legumess can be a problem...I don't notice any issue with green beans or snap peas, but I don't eat them super often.

I definitely notice problems using cream in my coffee...I rarely use butter so not sure there. It is a source of a small amount of dairy proteins...I'd try to keep that stuff as clean as possible and then reintroduce and monitor results. No idea on the multi.

Scott Kustes
07-11-2007, 09:45 AM
Didn't Dr. Cordain say that green beans (aka string beans) were the only acceptable legumes?

kevin mckay
07-12-2007, 08:37 PM
is goat cheese out?

kevin mckay
07-23-2007, 02:25 PM
Bummer, shit came back and I have been 100% grain and dairy free since 06-21-2007 maybe it takes longer? Maybe I should cut eggs and nuts?

Robb Wolf
07-23-2007, 03:25 PM
Any change in sleep or stress?

kevin mckay
07-23-2007, 06:18 PM
I read light's out finally so have been getting allot more sleep (great book), my job is stressful but always has been.

kevin mckay
07-23-2007, 07:43 PM
Maybe it just takes a while to get all the stuff out of my system? I plan to stay 100% clean moving forward because it is actually easier that having the cheat days and I feel beter.

Yael Grauer
07-23-2007, 09:43 PM
Did you try the Wobenzym yet?

kevin mckay
07-25-2007, 08:15 AM
No, but I will give it a shot.

Greg Battaglia
07-25-2007, 01:59 PM
Kevin, I find that cutting everything except meat and veggies is the best way to find out what is really causing the problem. However, i would only do this if you can get all grass-fed and organic foods. Try going meat and veggies with plenty of fat (preferably of non-dairy animal origin, hence the grass-fed rec.). I'm willing to bet this will get you where you need to be. I find that nuts and fruit can both have milder, but similar effects as grains and legumes if consumed in too great of quantities.

kevin mckay
11-06-2007, 02:06 PM
Well great news it is going away and the Dr says he is 90% sure it is viral!

Garrett Smith
11-06-2007, 02:34 PM
Kevin,
If it is viral and you don't want to be on conventional antivirals, shoot me a PM and we'll talk about your other options.

Michael Miller
03-18-2008, 02:42 AM
Anyone hear about studies that suggest glucosamine may promote insulin resistance over time?

For about a year my right knee has been crackling when i do squats or go up stairs. There is no pain while doing those things but i did notice a bit of pain while down on my knee when i was looking for something under the bed. I remember banging my knee really hard about 2 years ago but didnt notice much until i started hearing the crackling and noticed it was tender when down on my knee this past year.

I was thinking of trying some G+C+MSM...how long would a person need to stay on that?

Garrett Smith
03-18-2008, 05:47 AM
Michael,
If you try that combo, give it two months before really assessing the results. It would be smart to record a pain scale over several days before beginning and then do the same at the end of two months. If you don't notice improvement, then those aren't your answer.

If the G+C+MSM help, you'd likely want to be on them for good. You might be able to reduce your dose over time to get the minimal amount that does the maximal good, but it's pretty much a long-term thing.

With a lot of joint cracking, the first thing I always suggest is to get off the nightshades, if you aren't already.

Michael Miller
03-18-2008, 03:13 PM
Dr. G, do you feel that prolonged use could possibly cause some insulin resistance or side effects?

Garrett Smith
03-18-2008, 04:03 PM
I have no idea. I do prefer MSM to the gluc/chond combos though.

Tony Ferous
03-19-2008, 03:48 AM
Kevin, how old are you?
Perhaps try a herbal anti inflamatory, i like new chapter zylamend.

Mike ODonnell
03-19-2008, 07:55 AM
Speaking of nightshades and arthritis...I just did something on Leaky Gut Syndrome...as that is where it all starts for the most part.

http://projectfit.org/iflifeblog/2008/03/19/is-your-gut-leaking-what-to-do-about-it/