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Brad Hirakawa
10-26-2006, 09:44 AM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15387493/


Anyone want to start a supplement company with me?

:)

Yael Grauer
10-26-2006, 11:44 AM
http://www.medherb.com/hypericum-jama.htm

Robb Wolf
10-26-2006, 11:57 AM
Can't we just sell people capsules of sand? High fiber and no calories!!

Brad Hirakawa
10-26-2006, 01:51 PM
Yael,

Are you aware of how that particular herb affects P450 enzymes in humans.

It is useful information to know.

Brad

Brad Hirakawa
10-26-2006, 01:52 PM
.... it would have to be colloidal sand. :)

Brad

Yael Grauer
10-26-2006, 02:08 PM
Are you aware of how that particular herb affects P450 enzymes in humans.

http://www.medherb.com/hypericum-drug-herb.html

Are you aware of the way hypericum (topically) affects "permanent" nerve damage? It is useful information to know.

Brad Hirakawa
10-26-2006, 02:30 PM
Yael,

Calm down my friend, I did not mean to start a fight. I am sorry if my post sounded sassy. In fact, I was just having fun. My job deals with ultra-serious diseases and not-so-pleasent experimental procedures. So, I come online during breaks (not many of those now a days) to chill out.

I am aware of many of the properties of that particular herb (and a few others), as I did a lengthy research project on the topic in graduate school. I'm talking biochem, mol. bio, analytical chem.. the works. I was interested in herbal products back then, but have since lost interest. The marketing and general bull-shit associated with many of those companies (herb, supplements, etc.) is right up there with the marketing and bull-shit associated with big pharma. Anyone who says otherwise is selling something. :)

I was not aware of the medherb journal, but it looks interesting. I would have to check up on the advisory board, the editor(s) and read a few articles before I made my own decision about it's content.

I am certain many herbs have pharmacological effects, but I am not as certain about the safety or efficacy research behind them. Many, in my opinion, are poorly run or poorly documented with substandard scientific practices. They do seem to be getting much better though, but still not yielding any magic results I’m waiting for (like the Spice Mélange).

I am also certain that some herbalists, supplement peddlers and the like walk that felonious line that divides humble suggestion and practicing medicine without a license.

Brad

Brad Hirakawa
10-26-2006, 02:42 PM
In the spirit of learning.. I'll bite.. how is it used to help with nerve damage? A link to the clinical studies would be great. Thanks!

Brad

Yael Grauer
10-26-2006, 03:14 PM
Calm down?!! :eek: Them's fightin' words!!

I am just playing. I agree with you-- most products in stores are formulated by marketers. Herbs, supplements, etc. are not a baseline strategy for dealing with daily life--good sleep, exercise, diet, etc. are. Most herbal formulas you buy in store, IF they have an effect at all, are only good for masking deeper underlying problems that people aren't taking care of (and letting them go unabated.) I also think allopathic medicine often treats symptoms instead of the root cause of conditions and docs prescribe medicines that are harmful in the long term when there are other alternatives.

I think you'd like the journal. Paul Bergner is amazing and ranks up there with people like Robb, in my opinion. He had an "Herban legends" lecture I attended which was amazing. He had a critical thinking question format at the end that he has his students use where they find three MEDLINE articles and determine whether the studies are based on humans, account for all confounding factors, use appropriate form, dose and duration of intervention, measure real results instead of indicators, are interpreted properly, fit in context of the larger body of research, do not have deliberate bias, have significant results, which show what the title and abstract claim they do, etc. It would be nice if people who dismiss plants like SJW offhand would know how to read the scientific studies--if they did they would know there were a lot of problems with the hypericum studies.

I've seen plants do some really amazing things that allopathic medicine couldn't touch (like SJW basically curing radial mononeuropathy, for one) and I've seen a lot of prevented surgeries... and I think many allopathic meds are suspect, not to mention the fact that iatrogenic deaths are at least the third leading cause of death in North America, and possibly the leading cause.

Yael Grauer
10-26-2006, 03:31 PM
In the spirit of learning.. I'll bite.. how is it used to help with nerve damage? A link to the clinical studies would be great.

I'm at work too and sadly my SJW research is at home--but I will dig the studies up sometime tomorrow or this weekend. You have to use the freshly infused oil--if it's not red, it won't work.

Jeremy Jones
10-26-2006, 03:33 PM
I want to sell a "proprietery blend" suppliment that displaces the fat on women's midsection and legs and transfers it to their breasts, and since there legs have no more cellulite the hair won't stick and they will never have to use a razor again.

Of course the same suppliment would do similar things to men. . . you know. . .displace fat to a more. . .desirable location:rolleyes:


I would only need one infomercial, and I already have the idea for the little animated diagram that every infomercial needs. . . who's with me?

Brad Hirakawa
10-26-2006, 08:07 PM
Yael,

I think you and I would agree on many things, and disagree on many others.... pretty typical with we folk (humans).

I've read many of your notes here and on Crossfit, and it's clear that you are intelligent, motivated and all that good stuff. I wish we had more like you in the laboratory.

Ah herbs.... in college, I had some rather nice experiences with various "herbs." ;)

No harm intended, have a good weekend!

Brad

Brad Hirakawa
10-26-2006, 08:10 PM
Jeremy,

You sexist, pig headed, typical male, shallow, disgusting........

Brad

ps. Call me tomorrow morning, I would like to discuss a business proposition.


:)

Yael Grauer
10-26-2006, 08:27 PM
No worries, Brad...and I don't know about all that. :o but I'd be happy to send you some free hypericum oil. ;)

Ah yes, college "herbs." That's the example I always use when people say herbs "don't work." :D

Hope you have a good weekend too!

Yael Grauer
10-27-2006, 08:46 AM
All right, I'm actually a fan of Samuel Hahnemann and Dr. Jacque Benveniste, but this is my peace offering to Brad. This is an e-mail a really cute mathemetician I met in Oxford sent me debunking the use of homeopathic remedies... This is an e-mail from 2001-I guess that means I've been having the same argument for five years! :eek: He definitely won this one...even though you don't dilute homeopathics in water. IIRC he was thinking of flower essences.

======

EVERY SINGLE drop of water on the planet already contains a HIGHER
concentration of all these things than in a homeopathic remedy so you CAN'T
dilute it down to 30C because you're diluting with water which is already more
concentrated than this.

On examining the numbers I realized that a mixture of say 30C is so diluted
that all I have to do is put a 1 litre of the original mixture in the sea and
then 10^60 litres of the earths water are at the correct concentration.

Enough to accidentally heal everyone... or is it?

Well, unfortunately we don't know the volume of the sea, but we do know the
radius of the earth though, it's roughly 6,400km. so, the surface area of the
earth is pi*r(squared)= 3.14*6400*6400 this is in kilometres squared though. for metres squared it's 3.14 * 6400 * 6400 * 1000 * 1000= 128614400000000 = 1.28 *10^14.

3/4 of the earths surface is covered in water it's roughly, on average say, around 2 kilometres deep. You will see that the exact depth is utterly irrelevant.

suppose it's 2km then we have a volume of 1.28*10^14 * 2 *1000
(converting to metres again)= 2.56*10^17. This is cubic metres of
water, there are 1,000 litres of water in a cubic metre so, in fact,
the total volume of the sea's water is only 2.56*10^40.

That means that if after I drop this litre of water into the sea we still need
to do a dilution of 20C to get it to homeopathic dilution!1 litre in all of the
worlds water is only 10C.

SO how can we expect to every STOP taking homepathic remedies that are too strong? Every time we dilute the remedy it's in water which has got a HIGHER concentration of the level of solution we are aiming at.

Scott Kustes
10-27-2006, 10:24 AM
I'm trying to develop a beer that goes straight to the biceps instead of the belly. "Hey dude, check out my beer biceps!" Anybody have a formulation idea? I can work on the marketing.

Robb Wolf
10-27-2006, 03:12 PM
Scott-
That is a freaking winner. Maybe we need to substitute Tribulis for hops....hmmmmm

Brad Hirakawa
10-29-2006, 04:32 PM
LMAO you guys and gals are killing me!!! :)

Speaking of homeopathic... the last cold I had was nasty. I bought some Zicam nasal spray at the drug store after reading a few studies on Medline about the brew.

I opened the bottle, primed the pump and test fired a stream onto the bathroom mirror. It reminded me of popping a large Doritos cultivated zit back in my high school yesteryears (no Cordain books back then). Next I rammed the 1 inch Zicam nozzle up my left nostril, gave it the strongest muscle-up fueled squeeze pump I could muster and snorted deeply like it was the last line of Columbian llello on the planet. Before the sting kicked in I launched a volley of the slime up my right nostril similarly. I refer you please to the word sting in that last sentence. To be more accurate, I should have replaced the word “sting” with the phrase “sting the likes of which one dozen Africanized killer wasps could only hope to rival.” My already inflamed mucus membranes responded in a manner that reminded me of my Thailand-traveled friend as he recounted his first herpetic outbreak, which he attempted to treat with dilute bleach as described one of the local head shrinkers.

The next day, after my antihistamine induced stupor had cleared, I read the instructions clearly explaining one should not snort Zicam, rather just squirt it gently in the bottom portion of your nostrils.

After that occasion, I swore that subsequent experiences with homeopathic treatments would be limited to diluting Scotch in water. :)

Scott Kustes
10-30-2006, 12:09 PM
You know what they say Brad....when all else fails, RTFM.

Jeremy Jones
10-31-2006, 11:58 AM
I totally get it Brad,


Why is it that we Engineers and Scientists hardly ever read the directions when we are off the clock?

(and I swear it isn't a "Male" thing).

kevin mckay
11-01-2006, 12:45 PM
Can't we just sell people capsules of sand? High fiber and no calories!!

Fantastic I will run that buy marketing!