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View Full Version : Experience with Ramadan-like IF?


Yvana van den Hork
06-27-2007, 12:57 PM
Anyone here who's doing IF by eating an early breakfast and a late night dinner with approx. 12 hrs of fasting in between?

Late 2006 I had good luck losing with 3 meals/day on a 10am/4pm/10pm schedule, but I wanted to try IF.
The Fast-till-5 was a disaster right away as I didn't feel hungry, as much as cold.
Unfortunately, I can't prove this with a decrease in body temperature, since I've only started measuring body temp after that trial.

This cold feeling went away when I decided to go for an approximately 12hr fast with breakfast at 10am and dinner at 10pm. When I was still eating 3 meals I would sometimes already spontaneously eat at 10am-8pm-10pm because appetite that would increase at 4pm would disappear spontaneously when I was too occupied to eat.

I'm still not 100% sure whether metabolism will not go down with 2 meals as opposed to 3 meals, as calorie intake also dropped for a bit on the 2 meals/day pattern.

BTW, I'm not doing IF on WO days, and have 5-6 meals on those days.

So:
- who eats breakfast+late night dinner as well?
- have you tracked body temperature (objectively and/or subjectively) and noticed a difference?

Chris Forbis
06-27-2007, 02:20 PM
During most of this past basketball season (when I was coaching) I was doing this schedule:
MWF: 1 meal early (6:30am), one meal late (7:00)
TuTh: Fasting day, one late meal (7:00)
SaSu: Meal out (noon), one later meal (6:00)


And I am definitely with you on the subjective drop in body temperature when working on a longish (15+ hours) fast. I've been fasting today and haven't had to turn on my A/C at all.

I can't really recall if I was experiencing the drop in BT on the days when I ate twice or not.

Robb Wolf
06-27-2007, 04:50 PM
Definitely notice the drop in body temp. It's hell in the winter when the gym was unheated and ~28*F. It's pretty nice now that Chico is heating up.

that approach is likely quite good...lots of ways to cook that stuff.

Yvana van den Hork
06-28-2007, 12:22 AM
I must add that I've got a history of disordered eating. Disordered as it wasn't a true eating disorder, since I just didn't eat poorly because of wanting to lose fat/weight desperately, no I just didn't care about the food.

Only decades later I've diagnosed part of the reason: becoming both gluten- and dairy intolerant without knowing it. Since my mid-teens I've had food-related joint pain as well as GI discomfort. But most of all , I just am never really hungry until food gets into my mouth (or the scent of it into my nose).

So, yes IF is second nature. Considering however, how fast my body temperature drops upon being stressed, I really don't feel it would be a good idea to go with the prolonged fast periods.
For the record, this was confirmed mid-April when a full blood panel was done, and despite normal TSH & T4 values, my T3 was subrange. I wasn't even dieting very strictly at the moment. But indeed had already embarked this 'eat 2 meals/day 3-4 days/week' experiment.

Perhaps some of you can switch from the Fast-till-5 method to this one and share experiences about how different it feels.

Bo Bolund
06-28-2007, 02:01 AM
Anyone here who's doing IF by eating an early breakfast and a late night dinner with approx. 12 hrs of fasting in between?

Late 2006 I had good luck losing with 3 meals/day on a 10am/4pm/10pm schedule, but I wanted to try IF.
The Fast-till-5 was a disaster right away as I didn't feel hungry, as much as cold.
Unfortunately, I can't prove this with a decrease in body temperature, since I've only started measuring body temp after that trial.

This cold feeling went away when I decided to go for an approximately 12hr fast with breakfast at 10am and dinner at 10pm. When I was still eating 3 meals I would sometimes already spontaneously eat at 10am-8pm-10pm because appetite that would increase at 4pm would disappear spontaneously when I was too occupied to eat.

I'm still not 100% sure whether metabolism will not go down with 2 meals as opposed to 3 meals, as calorie intake also dropped for a bit on the 2 meals/day pattern.

BTW, I'm not doing IF on WO days, and have 5-6 meals on those days.

So:
- who eats breakfast+late night dinner as well?
- have you tracked body temperature (objectively and/or subjectively) and noticed a difference?

I only eat once a day and have no problem with coldness.
I've only experienced coldness when I've tried low carb diet or fasting for more than 44 hours.

Chris Forbis
06-28-2007, 05:51 AM
I only eat once a day and have no problem with coldness.
I've only experienced coldness when I've tried low carb diet or fasting for more than 44 hours.

Hmm. I wonder if the coldness is not just a product of fasting but the combination of fasting and low carbohydrate...

Yvana van den Hork
06-28-2007, 06:04 AM
Depends on what you consider to be low-carb. And then , fasting = zero carb/protein/fats.

Interestingly, I've noticed when I took fish oil caps on their own during the fast that it warmed me up in a similar extent as protein can heat me up.

Excess carbs pre workout can either make my heart race and my head spin, or just very sleepy and have me forget the simplest things.

Avg carb intake is around 150-200g a day (mostly 35% of total calories) with 50-125g on IF-days and 150- sometimes over 400g on workout days.

After reading up on Michael Eades POV on leptin resistance and how lowcarbing can increase leptin sensitivity I'm going to try upping fats instead of mostly carbs on lifting days.

But I digress. It's a pity I never tracked body temperature during the Fast-til-5 experiment, since I've noticed that feeling hot not always equates to 'being' hot.

Garrett Smith
06-28-2007, 06:22 AM
I haven't noticed any feeling of coldness, even when on the 24 hour EOD fasting (I'm now doing an 18/6 pattern due to work, I also really missed dinners).

I've also been supplementing fish oil at about 2200mg EPA+DHA total and 12.5 mg iodine, so that may definitely play a part.

I took my body temp several days while on the EOD fasting protocol, never saw it below 97.3, and sometimes it would be 98.4.

Yvana van den Hork
06-28-2007, 07:23 AM
What then *is* a normal body temp? I'm taking it in order to find out when I ovulate and observe whether appetite really coincides with higher body temperature. Which indeed, is nearly always true.

Lowest sofar was when I camped out and barely slept: 36,2C (97.2F). But it's probably not as low as it used to be, as I'm nearly always fairly warm.
Hottest is at or slightly over 37,0C (98.65F).

AFAIK, you're hypothyroid with temp below 36C? Even more surprising then that T3 is still subrange despite high body temp. OTOH, I know someone on thyroid meds, whose highest temp is 36,2C, my lower limit.

Garrett Smith
06-28-2007, 10:32 AM
"Normal" body temp is an interesting question. Lower can be good or not so good, depending on the cause.

I believe it's much like a low HR...a generally good sign in athletes, not so good in unhealthy sedentary folks.

Bo Bolund
07-02-2007, 03:06 AM
Hmm. I wonder if the coldness is not just a product of fasting but the combination of fasting and low carbohydrate...

Good question! I think I would definitely be warm longer fasting on regular diet since carb stores will be larger, supporting metabolism.

I think I will try and see when body temp shuts down fasting on regular diet...

Yvana van den Hork
07-02-2007, 07:12 AM
Made a really interesting observation yesterday. I had my old favourite breakfast of veggie soup with egg & pollock plus coconut as well as the usual coffee. I was just fine throughout the day but started craving carbs later on, probably because of driving, which seems to burn through more carbs than one realizes because of the higher brain activity (constantly paying attention to traffic and sudden incidents).

I was noticing that I probably needed some extra carbs because my thinking slowed down for a bit and I got a bit of foggy eye vision. Something that would frequently happen late 2006 when I was dieting and then doing morning HIIT sessions with relatively few carbs. Nearly always woke up with tingling fingers. Which apparently was carpal tunnel syndrome, but symptoms were gone once I upped the carbs.

In the last few days the tingling reappeared when I'd lowered them for a bit after pigging out too much..

Around 6pm when I was visiting people, I had a kaki/sharonfruit and then this little piece of fruit satisfied me so much I only had dinner close to midnight which actually had quite a bit of carbs from basmati rice.

And guess what happened? I woke up twice at 4 am and 5am totally thirsty from not drinking enough and too much salt and craved carbs so badly I had OJ and when that was gone even 2 big glasses of lemonade. I can't even recall ever having pigged out in the midst the night in over 5 years.

Makes me wonder how carb craved you get from driving? I've had this insane craving for carbs when driving happening more often now. On my latest long drive (6-8 hrs total, I forgot) I ate my 2 meals (breakfast & dinner) but had about 50-60g of carbs just from hard candy. Then I was just fine. No cravings later on. I've started to treat driving as 'slow cardio' and hence readjusted carb requirements for it. Apparently i was spot on here, considering the nightly carb 'binge'

There are 2 possible reasons for why it is so draining to drive:
- traffic where I live is really intense and you have to watch your 'back' literally all the freaking time! On the motorway because of really extremely agressive driving and inside cities because of complex roads and lots of slow traffic
- having problems with eyes, viz. squinting = getting 2 different signals in, which requires more effort to focus and judge distances than for most.

Troy Archie
07-06-2007, 01:36 PM
Hmm. I wonder if the coldness is not just a product of fasting but the combination of fasting and low carbohydrate...

I've been thinking about this question quite a bit the last couple days. I think it's low carbs and fasting just enhances it. It's pretty warm out right now (by Canadian standards) and I feel a bit cool at times whereas others are complaining about the heat...

Robb Wolf
07-07-2007, 09:52 AM
I think the stress of driving can certainly make one a little carb-munchie.

Regarding the temperature issue I'm going to tinker with Zone food levels so I know the bare minimum food I need to get by and try to get that down in an IF format. Chico is looking just a scad cooler than hell.

Yvana van den Hork
07-07-2007, 01:02 PM
This week is a rest week from both lifting and cardio but I'm continueing with the same the low/high food pattern as before, except that I eat slightly more on the low days and less on the high days.
Temp has dropped too but as I'm a gurl, this could also be just the time of month. Yet I can see that it drops lower than in the 3 cycles before without a real rest week.

As of next week I'll be training in an easier (for the body, not for the agenda) every-other-day pattern and I'm hoping to see an increase of maintenance. If this doesn't happen in 2 weeks, I'll think to ditch the real 12hr fast pattern and go back to eating 3x/day but skip lunch (breakfast- early & late dinner).

I'm figuring that the mild stress from fasting is good for people that are stress-resistant, but for someone that's easily stressed, it's a bit much.
If it's not from going back from training EOD to 3x/wk then the only possible reason for a drop in mtn can be the IF.
I didn't just start it because it's very convenient to do, and supposedly healthy, but also to drop body fat. Sofar though, I've seen huge fluctuations in water weight (both an immense drop and gain) and not so much fat loss.

Yvana van den Hork
07-10-2007, 01:59 AM
It's not truly scientific to be changing a lot of factors at once, but I've decided to stop the true fasting over 12 hrs and re-introduce some foods, viz. fruit. I just feel that a true fast over the day doesn't work well for me re fat loss and LBM-maintenance. OTOH, the LBM-loss might be simply water loss which may indicate that I'm having less inflammation problems.

By only adding fruit I'll go in-between a true fast and eating. At least that's how I'm justifying this move.

I'm simply not happy with the drop in maintenance, even though apparently this is a maintenance that is normal for women my age and height (I'm 43 y.o. and 1,59m tall/short) working out every other day but otherwise having a sedentary job with only some walking.

Yvana van den Hork
09-19-2007, 02:21 PM
Just an update. I've gradually given up on the two meals/day approach in a 12 hrs on/off fashion.
First came the snacks in between and then finally I've re-introduced a 3rd meal. I'm still sometimes just making that one into 1-2 snacks , depending on how low I want to have the calories.
The upside:
- maintenance has gone up to at least 2200 kcal again and when I was gone for the holidays (2 weeks) and ate just whenever it pleased me, I averaged close to 2600 kcal/day in 2 weeks. Without any formal exercise, except (which is funny considering my posts above), 400K driving a day (don't ask :p ). When I came back there was ZERO weight gain!

The downside:
- I'm missing the ease at which I could cut calories to really low levels, but then again, I no longer need to go as low to have a similar large deficit.

A possible explanation: it is said that catecholamine output goes up during the fasting times. It seems that this is offset by a drop in metabolism from thyroid slowdown. I've just started a regime of Cytomel (T3) last week since my T3-levels were chronically low. I'm just at a small dose of 12.5 mcg now and will build up towards 25mcg (1 tab). Had planned to stay at 6.25 mcg for 1-2 weeks but I tanked too badly in the afternoon = got really cold hands and felt tired.

So, perhaps IF is bad news for people with slow thyroids and not a problem for anyone with a 'normal' thyroid? Or would everyone's metabolism be affected negatively?

Allen Yeh
09-20-2007, 04:01 AM
A possible explanation: it is said that catecholamine output goes up during the fasting times. It seems that this is offset by a drop in metabolism from thyroid slowdown. I've just started a regime of Cytomel (T3) last week since my T3-levels were chronically low. I'm just at a small dose of 12.5 mcg now and will build up towards 25mcg (1 tab). Had planned to stay at 6.25 mcg for 1-2 weeks but I tanked too badly in the afternoon = got really cold hands and felt tired.

So, perhaps IF is bad news for people with slow thyroids and not a problem for anyone with a 'normal' thyroid? Or would everyone's metabolism be affected negatively?

I've been wondering about how metabolism is affected by IF...hm. Keep us posted?

chris hill
09-20-2007, 06:26 AM
It's not truly scientific to be changing a lot of factors at once, but I've decided to stop the true fasting over 12 hrs and re-introduce some foods, viz. fruit. I just feel that a true fast over the day doesn't work well for me re fat loss and LBM-maintenance. OTOH, the LBM-loss might be simply water loss which may indicate that I'm having less inflammation problems.

By only adding fruit I'll go in-between a true fast and eating. At least that's how I'm justifying this move.

I'm simply not happy with the drop in maintenance, even though apparently this is a maintenance that is normal for women my age and height (I'm 43 y.o. and 1,59m tall/short) working out every other day but otherwise having a sedentary job with only some walking.

Yvana,

How did you get on with fruit as the middle meal? I only ask as my father in law for years (probably 2 or 3 decades) has consistantly eaten porridge (organic/local) for breakfast, fruit for lunch and a home cooked evening meal. He cycles, kayaks, surfs, goes for LONG walks and is generally the fittest/healthiest 50something year old i know

Ethan Pack
09-20-2007, 06:49 AM
I haven't noticed any feeling of coldness, even when on the 24 hour EOD fasting (I'm now doing an 18/6 pattern due to work, I also really missed dinners).

I've also been supplementing fish oil at about 2200mg EPA+DHA total and 12.5 mg iodine, so that may definitely play a part.

I took my body temp several days while on the EOD fasting protocol, never saw it below 97.3, and sometimes it would be 98.4.

I certainly agree here. I'm only about 11 days into a regular ADF protocol and my body temp and response to external temperature seems to be about the same as before.

Yvana van den Hork
09-20-2007, 07:24 AM
Oh boy. Conversion from Fahrenheit to Celsius (Kelvin is OK too, but that's a bit too scientific): (97.3-32)/9 x 5 = 36.3. I've only started tracking morning temp since April and have only once seen it drop lower, which was when I was out for a weekend and felt as if I was freezing to death.

I'm not sure if subjective feelings of being cold = being really cold and vice versa. I'm not about to go and stick in a thermometer every time I feel cold.

Though I did see interesting things :
- feeling extremely cold a few hours after the 100g glucose tolerance test I did past Thursday
- feeling hot the night after overfeeding following a heavy workout
- not feeling as hot when I was eating at or below maintenance after a heavy workout
- not craving anything or feel cold a day after overfeeding versus craving carbs and cold when I wouldn't overfeed.

So, even while a strict IF isn't working as well for me , viz. extending the fast to over 15hrs doesn't seem to have a positive effect, some form of underfeeding on rest days versus overfeeding on workout days works miracles.

If we loosen the interpretation of IF and say that my 12hrs fast /10am breakfast / 6-8hrs fast / 4-6pm dinner / 10pm supper is also IF, then I'm golden.

Fruit is such an odd food item. Some people just get completely ravenous after eating fruit and even get hyperglycemic and cold (that's another explanation for the coldness), but I feel OK on it. Might be good to combine it with a bit of fat though.

Chris , I would wager to say that your FIL has ver stable blood sugar levels!