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Coach Rutherford
10-27-2006, 11:14 AM
Super Moderator and others,

Are we on board with the ZMA B4 bed? As an aging athlete (47) I'm looking to enhanced recovery. I'm not sure I'm healing faster I'm still sore in the morning.
I'm experiencing the odd dream state I have heard mentioned by others.

Steve Shafley
10-27-2006, 11:33 AM
My problems with ZMA stem from the window of opportunity the nutrient combination seems to have. If I don't take it between 30-45 minutes of going to sleep, it seems to disturb my sleep, rather than enhance it. I have the same problem with melatonin.

One thing that might be nice to add to a bedtime/ZMA kind of stack is the amino acid L-Taurine.

Jeremy Jones
10-27-2006, 11:50 AM
I take it right before bed (which is usually about 1hr after eating or less). Occationally I take it during the day. I have not noticed any affects to my sleep, but I might start paying attention to it now.

Robb Wolf
10-27-2006, 03:07 PM
Rut-
I like it. The literature looks good. Not a panacea but I think it's worth tinkering with.

Allen Yeh
10-30-2006, 04:42 AM
When I took ZMA as a combined product I did notice I had very vivid dreams. When I took zince oxide and magnesium aspartate as seperate pills, I didn't notice any crazy dreams.

I didn't notice anything noticeble one way or the other when experimenting both ways, other than the dreams.

I've seen the dosing they recommend anyone else have any deviation from that they they personally like? Does everyone else just take the combined pill? Or does anyone else take it as seperate supplements, 2 zinc pills+3 magnesium pills?

Danny John
10-30-2006, 07:08 AM
Yes...the dreams. That is the part that convinced me that ZMA was worth it. I am still "Old School" enough to believe that the more I dream (or the clarity) is a factor in measuring the worth of a night's rest.

Steve is right. I swallow them right before I go to bed and you can take them earlier, but it seems to change the sleep pattern. So, you will get up to pee (drinking water with the pills), but the quality is better. And, if you use the bed for anything else but sleep when you first lay down...you are going to simply pass out after...and sleep great! This will help recovery, I tell Tiff...

Scott Kustes
10-30-2006, 12:42 PM
I used to take it, but find it superfluous since shifting to 95%+ Paleo. If I were to set a relative benchmark of pre-ZMA as being a 1 on a scale of 1 to 10 in terms of sleep, and "with ZMA" being a 10, my "post-ZMA, totally Paleo" sleep is like a 9.5. I have very vivid dreams, perhaps not as vivid as on ZMA, but as long as I'm eating well, I recover like a champ and sleep like a baby (which is an idiotic statement given that babies wake up every 2 hours....regardless you get the drift). I don't see the little benefit of ZMA over a Paleo diet as being worth the $10 per month (cheap in terms of supplements, but why spend for what isn't needed).

Craig Cooper
10-30-2006, 09:04 PM
If Zinc and Magnesium intake is adequate through dietary sources, how does ZMA produce any results? I would expect that Scott's experience would be pretty common place when switching from a diet that was likely deficient in both of these minerals to one that was rich in them. Also, wouldn't the extra magnesium compromise calcium absorbption?

I'd also like to note that in the primary study done on ZMA, which was performed at WWU (where I went to school), the athletes pre-trial levels of zinc and magnesium were close to deficient, which would explain how ZMA might have boosted their performance. Also, the study was funded by ZMA patent holders (SNAC Systems inc.), and one of the study's authors has significant equity in that company.

Danny John
10-31-2006, 07:13 AM
I don't want to get into a debate here, but Poliquin wrote this about ZMA:

"One of those things you can control is your low level of zinc. I have never seen normal levels of zinc and magnesium with my first time clients. Say what you will about Victor Conte, but when he came out with ZMA, he solved America's two greatest deficiencies: zinc and magnesium.

Restoring magnesium level is a bit more complicated than just using pure ZMA. Restoring zinc is fairly easy; it really doesn't take that long. Restoring magnesium levels can sometimes take four times longer. If you're deficient in magnesium then you can't sleep well. About 68% of the American population complains of some sort of sleep disorder, and that's due largely to magnesium levels. That's why people who start taking ZMA will sleep better.


Some studies will show that 58% of the population is zinc and magnesium deficient. Other studies show 75%. But I can tell you that with the athletic population or with anyone who exercises four or five times a week, it's 100%. Usually you can correct a zinc deficiency in a non-athlete at 30mg a day for eight weeks. With the athletic population, we sometimes need to bring the dose up to 180mg a day for two months and then start to taper.

How can you tell if you're deficient? Well, you most likely are! But there is a very cheap test you can do to be sure. You buy this stuff called Zinc Tally, which is basically liquid zinc. You put it in your mouth and if you're normal it tastes like a liquefied metal car bumper. But when we ask the athletes who come into my centers what it tastes like, they'll say it tastes like water. They're so deficient they can't perceive there's any zinc in the solution.


Once they rebuild their zinc level, they can barely keep the Zinc Tally in their mouth. If they have to practically spit it out after eight weeks, then we know their zinc levels are normal.

In short, although age 31 is when we see things start to "fall apart," many of these things can be prevented by maximizing androgen levels through the means discussed above."

I started doing ZMA simply because Shaf (Steve Shafley) recommended it. I found my dreams instantly became more vivid. I NEVER trust research as it usually just tells us what we know (Lifting weights will make you stronger), but I will try things that a friend recommends. In fact, I had a great lunch once time with a guy named Robb Wolf and he taught me that my chicken eating was good for me...

So, I take ZMA because of my experiences...

Yael Grauer
10-31-2006, 07:30 AM
Disclaimer: I don't take ZMA, I take magnesium and zinc separately...probably because I'm taking a ton of magnesium and just a little zinc. Also I have a definite pro-magnesium bias because when I started taking it, I saw noticeable symptoms of what I had suspected was magnesium depletion disappearing with sleep, energy, stress levels, and a bunch of other things.

I haven't ever read anything about too much magnesium decreasing calcium absorption. It's actually the other way around: calcium cannot enter the bones without adequate magnesium. If you get too much calcium it pulls magnesium out. Other things that deplete magnesium include diuretics, chronic pain, various diseases, alcohol, drugs, tobacco, caffeine, stress and crappy diets (too much calcium, carbs, sugar, sodium, etc.)

Most people are deficient in magnesium. The lowest estimate I've read was 70% in the US and the highest was 90-95.

This article is pretty good and cites a ton of studies, and there's sections on athletes down near the bottom: http://www.mgwater.com/conseq.shtml

Yael Grauer
10-31-2006, 07:50 AM
Oops, I spent so long rereading that study that I didn't notice Dan John's post pop up. So, uh...the lowest estimate I've read is 58%. ;)

Craig Cooper
10-31-2006, 08:16 AM
So I guess the answer to my question is that ZMA has no effect if your zinc and magnesium levels are adequate, but it's not likely that your zinc and magnesium levels are adequate, especially if you exercise regularly. Also referencing my last post, is there any evidence to suggest that traditional hunter/gatherer societies had the levels of zinc/magnesium deficiency that America has today?

I've had trouble sleeping for a while, can't get more than 5-6 hours sleep, wake up at least once during the middle of the night. Zinc/Magnesium deficiency is something that I've never considered, so I'm going to give it a try, because I feel like I've tried everything else. I'll report back with my experiences.

Yael Grauer
10-31-2006, 02:17 PM
I don't know for sure, but since many of the causes depletion are relatively new inventions, like bread and Coke, I'd guess that most trad. h/gs had better zinc/magnesium than we did. There's a list of things that deplete magnesium if you scroll down here: http://www.krispin.com/magnes.html#Deficiency

I don't know much about zinc deficiency, except that it makes you really spacy, which some vegans mistake for spiritual enlightenment. I really want to try that stuff Dan John wrote about because I haven't noticed a difference from taking zinc this go around.

I know that higher amounts of zinc and vit. D mean you need less Mg.

As far as sleeping more, which you'll need to do if you want your endocrine, cardiovascular and immune systems to work properly, here's some suggestions that work for me when I follow them:

-go to bed at the same time each night, ideally no later than 11 (but definitely no later than 1 if at all possible)

-don't work out after 1 PM

-get outside around noon...this is supposed to supress melatonin

-use only candelight or soft, dimmed lights after sunset, or at least for the hour or so before bed. get vertical for about an hour before bed--I usually just do some light reading.

-if you have to stare at bright lights or computer screens late at night, you can wear rose glasses. i found this ridiculous looking pair at the hippie store (they're called "chakra glasses") but can't bring myself to wear them around other people.

-make sure your room is completely dark without any light at all, get heavy curtains and use electrical tape to cover bright blinky things.

-try to eat your last meal about three to six hours before bed, this is supposed to make sure you don't disrupt GH surges

-a slightly warm bath before bed can cool down the metabolism and relax the nervous system, let the water cool down a bit around the end

9+ hours of sleep in a completely dark room for three days in a row is supposed to cure sleep debt.

This is all stuff I've used, but most of my info is from this tabloid book Robb keeps raving about and from this tape: http://www.botanicalmedicine.org/Tapes/03sw/03sw17.htm

Magnesium right before bed helped me get to sleep a lot at first, but now I need to do all the other things too.

Chris Forbis
10-31-2006, 05:35 PM
I know ZMA is recommended to be taken on an empty stomach 30 minutes before bed. Does anyone have any experience with taking it on a non-empty stomach? During basketball season dinner comes pretty close to bed (1.5-2 hours) and I typically consider 3 hours post-meal to be "empty."

Scott Kustes
10-31-2006, 06:19 PM
Chris, I used to take it on occasion with a bedtime snack. Didn't decrease it's effectiveness in my experience. Although, once I did burp soon after taking it and likely before it reached my stomach (but after the capsules had dissolved)....I burped a white cloud that burned like the dickens in my throat. I highly recommend suppressing burps for about 10 minutes after taking ZMA.

Ken Urakawa
10-31-2006, 07:20 PM
...I burped a white cloud that burned like the dickens in my throat. I highly recommend suppressing burps for about 10 minutes after taking ZMA.

That would make a great parlor trick. I had a friend win a reasonably significant amount of money betting that he could make smoke come out of his, ummmm, nether regions. Little bit of baby powder and some mexican food...

Allen Yeh
11-01-2006, 03:33 AM
Other than Yael is everyone else taking ZMA as the combined pill rather than zinc and magnesium seperately (but still at the same time)?

I currently take them seperately but would be open to any ideas contrary. I take 30 mg's of zinc oxide and 400 mgs of magnesium oxide. It seems that most zma products are zinc aspartate as well as magnesium aspartate.

kevin mckay
11-01-2006, 12:43 PM
I am going to add zinc and magnesium to my diet after reading this but do not feel compelled to buy them combined as zma am I missing something? I read on wikopedia that zma is simply zinc, magnesium and vitamin B6. I would probably get them in asporate forms as I understand this is more easily absorbed.

Yael Grauer
11-01-2006, 01:07 PM
Can anybody look at their bottle and tell me exactly how much magnesium, zinc, B6, and whatever else is in their ZMA? And also what types? It would be nice to not have to pop so many pills and get them all at once, but I was under the impression that you needed to take B6 with B complexes in order for them to be utilized correctly. If I recall correctly, too much B6 can deplete other B vitamins...or some people t hink it's the deficiency of other B vitamins that cause problems.

To switch gears a bit, does anybody know for sure whether MSG is formed in the processing of liquid B vitamins? It says "natural flavors" on the bottle, but I wasn't sure. I'm a B vitamin junkie, and I tried Cataplex B+G and other capsules...but liquid B is so much more effective.

kevin mckay
11-01-2006, 01:17 PM
Yael, From wikopedia

The proportion of ingredients generally used in products is 20-30 mg Zinc, 400-500 mg Magnesium and ~10mg B6. This supplement should never be taken with calcium, as calcium blocks the absorption of zinc. Any ZMA supplement that has calcium in it should be avoided. ZMA should also be taken before bed on an empty stomach (2 hours after eating your last meal and at least 30 minutes prior to any other supplements).

Sceloporus occidentalis?

Yael Grauer
11-01-2006, 04:12 PM
Thanks. 5mg of B6 is not nearly enough to cause any problems without other B's. Is there like a woman's version of it or something? I could've sworn that several women who told me they were taking ZMA said they were only getting 300mg of magnesium.

Right now I take 35-50mg zinc, 25-35 B6 and about 650 mg magnesium. 400-800 is a good maintenance dose though. I'll look into switching to it when I run out of my current stash.

Sceloporus occidentalis?

Urosaurus ornatus. Close though!! I've got some beautiful Coleonyx variegatus (subspecies bogerti) that come visit me sometimes. I love them. :D

Chris Forbis
11-01-2006, 05:10 PM
I take Now Sports ZMA.

The prescribed dosage for men is 3 pills and has 15mg B6, 450mg Mg, and 30mg Zn.

It prescribes 2 pills to women, thus 10mg B6, 300mg Mg, and 20mg Zn.

Yael Grauer
11-01-2006, 08:34 PM
Wow, I'm surprised that they think women need less than men do. Zinc and B6 and magnesium are awesome for women since they affect hypothalamic dopamine, which regulates progresterone/prolactin and promotes liver clearance of elevated estrogen (most women are estrogen-dominant due to a bunch of reasons including the estrogenic effects of our toxic environment--xenoestrogens). But I guess if women learned they could use vitamins to do all that, then the medical system would have to stop peddling progesterone cream (and alternative health practitioners would have to stop peddling vitex and Shatavari)... all those things are really harmful and vitamins are harmless. Also women are more likely to get all kinds of diseases that are supposed to be due to low calcium but are actually due to low magnesium (the body needing Mg to properly utilize calcium). Okay, so I'd be interested in why they think men need more than women. Anyone know? The only thing I can think of is that some people say magnesium gets used up according to protein intake, and since ZMA is marketed to athletes men are more likely to be drinking bucketfuls of protein powder than women are.

Jeremy Jones
11-02-2006, 03:45 PM
Now that we are all ranting and raving about ZMA (or generic)


Where do YOU get the stuff? (I am about to run out and I want to get some cheap).

kevin mckay
11-02-2006, 05:19 PM
so what is the consensus is it better to buy zma or is it the same thing to buy the separate components?

Allen Yeh
11-03-2006, 03:07 AM
Now that we are all ranting and raving about ZMA (or generic)


Where do YOU get the stuff? (I am about to run out and I want to get some cheap).

I like buying my stuff from here:

http://www.dpsnutrition.net

Steve Shafley
11-03-2006, 05:24 AM
The cheapest ZMA I've found is the Biotest brand from the Biotest store...$9 for 90 caps, and they did, and might still do, use the same source that Victor Conte came up with at Balco Labs or got from SNAC.

Ben Kaminski
11-03-2006, 09:08 AM
For what it's worth, I've found my dreams to be enhanced by eating 2-3 cups of mixed greens in the afternoons. I used to take ZMA, got off it when I went paleo and tried cutting out most pills. The dreams I get from mixed greens aren't nearly as strong as those from ZMA, but still along those lines.

I'll probably try ZMA again after reading all of this, heh.

Scott Kustes
11-06-2006, 01:12 PM
I was thinking about that too Ben, maybe on a lower dosage. Instead of 3 caps nightly, I may do 1 cap nightly, then a $10 bottle is a 3 month supply.

Chris Forbis
11-12-2006, 08:00 AM
At the beginning of this thread, Shaf mentioned that if he misses the window of opportunity with ZMA (30-60 pre-sleep) that it seems to disrupt his sleep.

Does anyone else have experience with taking ZMA outside of this window?

What little anecdotal evidence I have accrued via the web seems to indicate the empty stomach part is more important than the pre-bedtime part...

Robb Wolf
11-12-2006, 08:33 AM
I've actually been using a Zinc/Mg ascorbate. The vit-c is nice for decreasing cortisol levels for bed time. No idea if its better.worse or the same as standard ZMA.

Tony Ferous
11-21-2006, 01:51 AM
Id taken ZMA before but usually with food, after all if its highly absorbable zinc/mag form, why not.

Last night though I took 2 caps 45 mins before bed, away from food, and I bizaarly dreamed that I was hanggliding! I dont ususally dream(or else remember), and ive never hangglided!

3 caps tonight, in the hope that girls will be involved!

Jeremy Jones
11-21-2006, 10:40 AM
3 caps tonight, in the hope that girls will be involved!



best.idea.ever.

Chris Forbis
11-21-2006, 04:53 PM
After a layoff from ZMA for awhile, I started back up this week with some from Biotest. Most days I had to take it during the day as dinner is too close to bedtime to do it then.

I would get real tired about an hour after taking it. Nighttime sleep featured more vivid dreams (or me remembering more of them) and the sleep seems deeper. Could be placebo, but it feels good...

Jeremy Jones
11-22-2006, 11:01 AM
I got a generic CA and MAG supplement from 'Rite Aid' and It says I am supposed to take 4 as one dose. . . wow.


Anyways, it seems like whenever I don't take it my jaw hurts in the morning from grinding my teeth. I wonder if I get better sleep because I am not trying to shatter my molars if I take the supp.

Billy_Brummel
11-29-2006, 08:58 PM
So if I take a dosage of Zinc along with a dosage of Magnesium right before bed, will that have the same effect as taking ZMA? Or is there some synergistic action that only ZMA will provide?
(This was my first post :D )

Robb Wolf
12-01-2006, 01:25 PM
Hey Billy!
Welcome!

The thing about the ZMA is both the zinc and magnesium are chelated...they are bound to ...I think mono-methionine aspartate. This makess both highly absorbable. Magnesium frequently comest as oxide and that will simply work like a laxative.

Billy_Brummel
12-01-2006, 04:23 PM
Thanks for the info Robb.

I think I'll be tracking down some ZMA soon. Sounds like a solid addition to my fish oil and multi...

Scotty Hagnas
12-02-2006, 11:33 AM
Hey Robb-

Where did you get the Zn/Mg ascorbate?

Scotty Hagnas
CrossFit Portland

Robb Wolf
12-03-2006, 12:28 PM
I had the local hippy-co-op order 1lb of each from Frontier Herbs. I think you can do it directly online. You know...I just looked at the frontier site and can not find K/Mg ascorbate there...thye must have ordered it from someone else, but there are loads of online sources. Jarrow formulas hass a good ZMA with copper.

Steve Shafley
12-03-2006, 01:10 PM
I read somewhere recently that copper and zinc don't go together really well, though that could be mitigated by the chelation, eh?

Robb Wolf
12-03-2006, 05:59 PM
Zinc increases the excreation rate of copper. I think Dr. Eades had a piece on this a few weeks ago. Jarrow knew aobut this issue years ago and cooked up thier version of ZMA, with a smidge of added copper to offset any loss. I really like that company and thier products.

Taha Mohamedali
12-04-2006, 12:51 AM
I remember looking into this a long time ago since it is indeed cheaper to buy the Zinc and Magnesium separately. In my reasearch and in talking to people however I was informed that the a zinc molecule and a magnesium molecule is not the same as a ZMA molecule. The pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics of the more complex ZMA molecule are different and so it isn't an apples to apples comparision. There's something special about the way ZMA behaves and i haven't quite understood all the intricate details yet.

Robb Wolf
12-04-2006, 03:56 PM
The metal ions are attached to a monomethionine aspartate moity...must be some kind of transport mechanism triggered by this. The fundamental issue however is Zinc and magnesium deficiency. Addressing that, by whatever means, should fix the problem. Unless its the monomethionine aspartate that is doing something!

Brad Hirakawa
12-04-2006, 04:08 PM
"Magnesium frequently comest as oxide and that will simply work like a laxative."

Sweet... I've become tolerant to Secrets of the Psyllium.

Brad

Allison Barns
12-04-2006, 10:20 PM
Perhaps it's my unfamiliarity with the search function (I tried, really!).... but what is ZMA?

Hey Taha, who is that stunning soon to be really stunning and totally buff lady in the background of your photo?? :D (it's me!)

Taha Mohamedali
12-04-2006, 11:54 PM
Robb, it's one of those black box things mate... dunno what's in the box, only know what comes out the other end :)

Allison, I don't know who that buff lady is... i think she was working in sets with me or something :)

Allen Yeh
12-05-2006, 05:19 AM
Perhaps it's my unfamiliarity with the search function (I tried, really!).... but what is ZMA?

Hey Taha, who is that stunning soon to be really stunning and totally buff lady in the background of your photo?? :D (it's me!)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZMA_(supplement)

Allison Barns
12-06-2006, 05:26 PM
Allen - Thanks for the link.

Pierre Auge
12-07-2006, 07:11 PM
Robb,
you're too smart for your own good...

Robb Wolf
12-09-2006, 07:40 AM
Robb,
you're too smart for your own good...

I keep trying to convince Nicki of that fact...she pee's herself laughing at me. It hurts.

Pierre Auge
12-10-2006, 09:24 PM
In that case its probably Nicky who is actually the smart one!

Chris Forbis
12-14-2006, 04:34 PM
I saw Poliquin (I think) mention that a test for zinc deficiency is to put some liquefied zinc compound in your mouth. If it tastes like a car bumper, then your zinc levels are ok. If you are deficient, you won't taste a thing.

After taking ZMA last night, I had a distinctly metallic taste in the back of my mouth this morning. I took some this afternoon (as my evening meal is too late to get it in before bed on an empty stomach) and got it again a while after.

Am I just taking crazy pills or is there something to this?

Mike ODonnell
12-14-2006, 06:48 PM
I took ZMA on Tuesday.....just woke up...

Scott Kustes
12-15-2006, 09:29 AM
I took ZMA on Tuesday.....just woke up...
That's some high quality stuff.

Jeremy Jones
12-15-2006, 04:32 PM
No, that's called Opium.


aka Vitamin O.


It is an ancient Chinese herbal remedy for conciousness.

Frank Needham
01-01-2007, 07:55 AM
Super Moderator and others,

Are we on board with the ZMA B4 bed? As an aging athlete (47) I'm looking to enhanced recovery. I'm not sure I'm healing faster I'm still sore in the morning.
I'm experiencing the odd dream state I have heard mentioned by others.

I am so glad to have seen this thread. After starting ZMA a couple days ago I can see a dramatic, probably 2 hours, difference in the time I sleep. Fantastic! Dreams or not, this stuff is great, no hype.

Bobby Spencer
01-01-2007, 02:54 PM
ZMA is a foundational supplement as far as I am concerned. When considering noticable results and effectiveness, I personally rank it above creatine, whey, aminos, etc . If my budget was extremely tight, I would only take ZMA and a good multi.....and some multis even include a ZMA blend. If I could afford to eat strictly organic, I wouldn't even take a multi.

Mike ODonnell
01-03-2007, 09:31 AM
Here's another thought into how ZMA is so effective:

ZMA shuttles out circulating blood glucose
Low blood glucose gives you that tired feeling (aka going to sleep after taking it)
Low glucose = low insulin
low insulin = high GH
GH is maximally released during the first 2-3 hours of REM sleep
so ZMA maximizes GH release and body repair at night

kevin mckay
01-03-2007, 11:30 AM
I do not understand what the difference is between this and just getting zinc and magnesium aspartate and b12 separately?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZMA_%28supplement%29

Frank Needham
01-03-2007, 05:19 PM
I do not understand what the difference is between this and just getting zinc and magnesium aspartate and b12 separately?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZMA_%28supplement%29

I'm sure not a chemist with a good explanation of what makes the combo work but ZMA will do as described below whereas its elements taken seperately will not. I'm still in shock over how I feel from using this stuff in just a matter of days.

Brilla further explained, "The muscle strength increases may have been mediated by the anabolic hormone increases in the ZMA group. The ZMA group had 30% increases in free and total testosterone levels compared to 10 percent decreases in the placebo group... The ZMA group also had a slight increase in insulin-like growth factor-1 (IGF-1) levels compared to a 20 percent decrease in the placebo group. This study shows that anabolic hormone and muscle strength increases can be induced in already strength-trained athletes by using a novel zinc-magnesium preparation.

kevin mckay
01-03-2007, 07:44 PM
what study is that from?

the A 1999 study on NCAA Football players

"It is important to note that this study was funded by SNAC Systems Inc. (the patent holders) and that one of the study's authors (Victor Conte) has equity in this company"

Steve Shafley
01-03-2007, 07:57 PM
After reading "Game of Shadows", which is about the Barry Bonds/Victor Conte/Balco/Tim Montgomery etc steroid scandal with the cream and the clear and all that, if I would have never tried ZMA, I probably wouldn't now. Having tried it, I seen it's effectiveness firsthand, given that I went to sleep in the correct timeframe after taking it, I can't discount it.

kevin mckay
01-03-2007, 08:28 PM
ok, I guess I will give it a shot.

Frank Needham
01-04-2007, 06:06 AM
what study is that from?

the A 1999 study on NCAA Football players

"It is important to note that this study was funded by SNAC Systems Inc. (the patent holders) and that one of the study's authors (Victor Conte) has equity in this company"

Each to their own but I for one do not talk of things that do not work, at least for me, in regard to most everything. I've had a lot crap blown by me in my years. All I can say is that I'm sleeping better, this is an absolute, and my lifting is going very well as a result. My state of mind is such that I've got to hold myself back some, the next workout looks very inviting.

kevin mckay
01-04-2007, 11:23 AM
Zinc increases the excreation rate of copper. I think Dr. Eades had a piece on this a few weeks ago. Jarrow knew aobut this issue years ago and cooked up thier version of ZMA, with a smidge of added copper to offset any loss. I really like that company and thier products.

I could not find zma on the Jarrow site do you know if they still offer it?

Mike ODonnell
01-04-2007, 11:54 AM
can't beat this price
http://www.nutricraze.com/ZMA-800mg-p-NF-113.html

Bobby Spencer
01-04-2007, 01:14 PM
NOW is a good company. I've tried different brands of ZMA and they have all had similar, good results. It should be cheap regardless of which company you choose and be sure it matches the original Conte/SNAC blend as some companies like to throw in extra stuff like tribulus I use Primaforce ZMA and I get a 2 month supply for about 18 dollars. I am sure NOW is just as good though.

Frank Needham
01-05-2007, 04:22 PM
NOW is the one that I happened to choose, mainly coz it was a good deal on iherb.com...Nothing but good things to say about it!

Mike ODonnell
01-06-2007, 08:39 PM
somehow stumbled across Victor's site.....some interesting articles as it'a all about ZMA

http://www.snac.com/research.htm

somehow I'm not sure that they are still shipping orders....

Steve Shafley
01-07-2007, 08:41 AM
I found this product interesting:

http://atlargenutrition.com/nutrition_detail.php?products_id=5

Basically it's a ZMA coupled with MicroLactin.

There are a few guys on the P&B who mentioned that this product does what it says it does, and were quite impressed with both the sleep effect, the effect it had on their lingering joint aches, and DOMS.

I'm probably going to give this combo a run in one form or another.

They hype it pretty good. The At Large company is a small one, and run by lifters themselves, and seems to put out only products they feel are effective.

Ronnie Ashlock
01-14-2007, 10:03 AM
Two days in taking ZMA and I have had the craziest vivid dreams (usually 3 or four different dreams each night). My first night's best ZMA dream had me watching a commercial jet airplane crash after being tossed around in extreme hurricane-like windy conditions. Last night's episode was a mental re-mix of scenes from "Apocalypto."

Can't say if ZMA is helping me with recovery and better sleep just yet, but the dreams are killer. It's better than watching television.

Scott Kustes
01-14-2007, 11:30 AM
Can't say if ZMA is helping me with recovery and better sleep just yet, but the dreams are killer. It's better than watching television.
I concur. I just finished reading The Bourne Supremacy. I had a dream that I was in a small plane with Jason Bourne on some mission. Hanging out with Matt Damon was cool.

Yael Grauer
01-14-2007, 11:51 AM
I concur. I just finished reading The Bourne Supremacy. I had a dream that I was in a small plane with Jason Bourne on some mission. Hanging out with Matt Damon was cool.

OMG, so if I take ZMA I can hang out with Mr. Bourne in my dreams?? I'm there. :)

Mike ODonnell
01-14-2007, 01:37 PM
Note to self....no movies with guys before ZMA and bed....only the playmate pillow fight channel.

Frank Needham
01-14-2007, 03:00 PM
Vivid dreams are an indicator of sleep quality!

Someone once asked what the correct ratios of ingredients were in ZMA. I ran across this the other day:
"b. The dosage should consist of: Magnesium: 450mg, Zinc: 30mg"
From http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/zman.php

Allen Yeh
01-15-2007, 05:08 AM
2 nights ago at about half time of the Colts and Ravens game I felt pretty crappy...most likely from eating a ton of the dip my wife had made. went to sleep around 6:30 pm woke up at 12:45 am brushed my teeth took my ZMA and then slept until about 9:30 am....with crazy dreams of hot women fighting over me. That was a lot of sleep.

Ronnie Ashlock
01-15-2007, 09:36 AM
Third night of wild dreams. The highlight of last night's lunacy was me speeding down the most ridiculously steep hill imagineable on a unicycle. I don't know where that came from.

This stuff is awesome.

kevin mckay
01-15-2007, 01:45 PM
zma + lucid dreaming might be cool to enhance performance like visualization does. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucid_dreaming

R. Alan Hester
01-22-2007, 10:48 AM
I have read others post that they have had trouble sleeping if they miss their "window". I have had the same issue for the last 9 days (the entire duration of my ZMA career). If I don't get to sleep within 30 minutes of taking it, I will not be able to get to sleep until 4-5 am, which screws with my day. It is an odd sensations that feels as if I have some "rebound" effect (from drowsy to wide awake with my mind going 100mph) post 30 minutes of feeling it take effect. Therefore, as the title suggests, I am jumping ship for awhile (forever), so I can get some sleep and get back on a schedule.

Jeremy Jones
01-22-2007, 11:31 AM
I wonder if there is still a good benefit to taking this during the day (not necessarily before bed).

Steve Shafley
01-23-2007, 05:18 AM
I'm running into the same problems with it right now, it's not enhancing my sleep at all, but I am getting bizarro dreams from it.

kevin mckay
01-23-2007, 12:08 PM
I think I am gonna get some just to experience the dreams

Allen Yeh
01-23-2007, 12:56 PM
I'm a little past month #2 on ZMA and I've found it to be great for dreams and I feel much more rested nowadays. I haven't experience the window thing in which people can't sleep. Hm..

Steve Shafley
01-23-2007, 01:50 PM
Here's an example of a dream.

This was in full color and very vivid.

I was on vacation in Eleuthera, one of the out-islands in the Bahamas. I was staying at a duplex villa. The person staying in the other side was Tony Budding. The scenery was brilliant and vibrant. The water was a deep, deep blue and extremely clear. The beach was white sugar sand and the waves were pretty big.

1. I've never met Tony Budding.
2. I have been to Eleuthera though.

I was looking in the storage shed at the sea kayaks and Tony walked out. He challenged me to a sea kayak race out in big surf (~6-8') out to this small, barely visible island.

We started racing, and Mike Mahler (the kettlebell vegetarian guy) pulled up next to us in a boat. This wasn't a normal boat, this was like some kind of African Queen steamer. He told us that there were giant sea crocodiles in the water and that we needed to come aboard immediately. We stopped racing and jumped onto the boat, and almost immediately afterwards a giant sea crocododile ate my kayak. Tony immediately insisted that he'd won due to the loss of my kayak, and we almost got into a fist fight over the subject, while Mike was desperately trying to coax more speed out of the boat.

1. I've never me Mike.
2. One crocodile was wearing a beret.


Then we were eating at a restaurant. Mike was explaining to me that eating fish wasn't breaking the rules of being a vegetarian. Tony pulled out a book, Charles Darwin's "Origin of Species" and showed me a passage that read something like:

"...due to the anomalous structures of the piscean anatomy, fish are not considered an animal, and can be eaten by Vegans..."

I conceded defeat on the topic, and ate some chicken noodle soup.

Then I woke up.

Frank Needham
01-23-2007, 04:15 PM
So, uh, how was that chicken soup anyways?

Mike ODonnell
01-23-2007, 04:39 PM
I was driving a convertible while standing on the roof because a black momba snake was in the car and it kept trying to bite my foot...I woke up in a panik looking for snakes under my bed.....so I am still waiting on the pillow fight dream.....haven't even come close...

If I dream of snakes that riverdance.....I'm flushing all the pills down the toilet....my worst 2 fears come together....

Ron Nelson
01-23-2007, 08:50 PM
I was driving a convertible while standing on the roof because a black momba snake was in the car and it kept trying to bite my foot...I woke up in a panik looking for snakes under my bed.....so I am still waiting on the pillow fight dream.....haven't even come close...

If I dream of snakes that riverdance.....I'm flushing all the pills down the toilet....my worst 2 fears come together....

I am sick and tired of these motherf&%^ing snakes in my motherf&^%$ing dreams.

I'm loving the fact that the ZMA is helping me kick the shit out of potential colds.

Allison Barns
01-23-2007, 09:46 PM
ZMA helps with colds?! Okay the recovery and wicked dreams were inticing but does it really help with colds?

Cool dream Steve! Nice touch with the "Origin of the Species." I thought only geek biologists like me had Darwin in their dreams. Did the crocodile speak French?

Chris Forbis
01-24-2007, 04:08 AM
Took the last of my ZMA on Monday... replacement ZMA gets shipped in today. Sleep is just boring without ZMA!

Steve Shafley
01-24-2007, 11:22 AM
I am, by training, a biologist, Allison.

The Crocodile didn't speak, but he looked damned natty in his beret as he devoured my kayak.

Ron Nelson
01-24-2007, 01:45 PM
I know there has been a ton of write ups on zinc and its effect on the cold virus. To summarize, it can shorten the lifespan of the cold by a couple of days, affects the symptoms, and can help prevent recurrence. All I know is my son does his best to pass along his colds to me and they don't take, or if they do, it lasts about 5 days and it's gone. What I do get ain't much, just some sniffles; not much congestion, coughing, sneezing and all that crap.

I loves me some ZMA.

Allison Barns
01-24-2007, 05:26 PM
Steve - To me you all are studs, and therefore you would be a "stud biologist" not a "geek biologist" like me.

Thanks for the reply Ron - I need all the help with colds I can get.

Sincerely,
The Snotty Nosed Geek Biologist:D

Steve Shafley
01-24-2007, 07:59 PM
I am the biologist who's never worked in the biology field.

I knew I should have gone for my PhD in either Ethnobotany or Microbiology, which were my two areas of strong interest. I was seriously gung ho for both at one point.

Instead I wound up in Latex and Plastics, following the path of least resistance to a decent paying job in the lean times after I graduated.

As a consolation prize, I saw a position for Field Biologist for the Michigan DNR, now DEQ, starting out at $17-19K yearly, and topping out around $35K.

Allison Barns
01-24-2007, 10:56 PM
Steve, you probably made a wise choice $$ wise. Biology + government work do not add up to big bucks. But Latex and Plastics! I'm allergic to latex... getting itchy at the thought of being "in" it! Pass the Benadryl please....

Ron Nelson
01-25-2007, 12:38 PM
Instead I wound up in Latex. . . .

I have no comment.

Ken Urakawa
01-25-2007, 07:17 PM
From a purely Freudian point of view, I find it interesting to hear talk of all the giant snake dreams...

Ronnie Ashlock
01-28-2007, 09:00 PM
Shaf wins the bizarro dream competition hands down.

josh everett
01-31-2007, 06:29 AM
I tired ZMA last night and as with every other supplement I've ever tried...nothing. In fact I probably woke up more times during the night than usual. I saw in the poliquen article that he says your HCL levels need to be up...do you guys recommend I start taking some of that or some other digestive aid?
Thanks, Josh

Robert Allison
01-31-2007, 08:24 AM
HCL seems to help some people, but you might start with digestive enzymes and probiotics if you don't already take them.

Allen Yeh
01-31-2007, 08:33 AM
I tired ZMA last night and as with every other supplement I've ever tried...nothing. In fact I probably woke up more times during the night than usual. I saw in the poliquen article that he says your HCL levels need to be up...do you guys recommend I start taking some of that or some other digestive aid?
Thanks, Josh

Curious on your protocol? From some of the posts here it seems like other people have sleep disturbance if they don't go to sleep within a 30-60 minute window of taking the ZMA.

Also I'm pretty sure they recommend taking ZMA on an empty stomach.

josh everett
01-31-2007, 08:52 AM
I'll look at trying probiotics... taking ZMA on an empty stomach will be tough. I get off of work at 6pm, usually finish dinner about 7:15 then most nights I'm in bed at 9 unless 24 is on.

Allen Yeh
01-31-2007, 09:07 AM
I'll look at trying probiotics... taking ZMA on an empty stomach will be tough. I get off of work at 6pm, usually finish dinner about 7:15 then most nights I'm in bed at 9 unless 24 is on.

Most nights I usually take it 1.5-2.5 hours after my last meal before I hit the sack.

Yael Grauer
01-31-2007, 09:54 AM
Make sure you're getting some kind of fermented food in your diet, not just probiotic pills. Rejuvenative Food is good...they are totally weird but their cultured veggies have a ton of lactobacilli and are pretty tasty too.

Robert Allison
01-31-2007, 10:29 AM
Good call on the fermented vegetables, but I have found that not everyone cares for the taste (I personally love them). In addition to Rejuvenative Foods, there are some smaller, regional producers that might be available in your health food store. You just want to make sure they are raw and unpasteurized (heat kills the enzymes and beneficial bacteria).

Also, if you don't have issues with dairy, kefir made from raw milk and some raw cheeses are a nice source of good bacteria.

Yael Grauer
01-31-2007, 10:45 AM
If money's no issue, Berry Green is this green powder you can add to a smoothie. It's got freeze-dried cultured fruits and veggies (1 billion probiotics per serving). It does have some cultured oats and brown rice in it, however. (2g active carbs.)

http://www.new-chapter.com/product/product.lasso?-Search=Action&-Table=P_Web&-Database=NewChapter&-KeyValue=173

Jordan Glasser
06-15-2007, 11:53 PM
After reading this thread numerous times, I had to try ZMA. (Heck, after reading this message board front to back, I am a paleo IF'er, who can't stop put down the book Lights Out!)

ZMA affected me, but not so positively, and perhaps it's indicative of something else. So I thought I would post just in case the experts could help.

Here's my story. Sleep, well, I usually sleep through the night. With ZMA, I would wake up in the middle of the night, and have no trouble going back to bed. But waking up 2-3 times a night is weird for me. I also felt groggy in the mornings, not the refreshed feeling people were reporting. here's the strange part, it effected my vision, to the point I was nauseous, and felt like a seizure was immenent. (Since I've never had a seizure, I have no idea why I would feel this way.) The sun was doing it to me, as was artificial light. Especially flashing lights. I obviously haven't taken ZMA since.

I don't take any supplements other then a probiotic and fish oils.

Frank Needham
07-09-2009, 08:20 PM
Because I was doing some review on the topic of recovery I went back and read this thread over again. Some pretty strange stuff in here LOL!

After a long break from ZMA I'm starting to take it again (dreams started immediately!)

Anybody got any comments who might have taken ZMA for the long haul without a break?

George Mounce
07-10-2009, 04:02 AM
Because I was doing some review on the topic of recovery I went back and read this thread over again. Some pretty strange stuff in here LOL!

After a long break from ZMA I'm starting to take it again (dreams started immediately!)

Anybody got any comments who might have taken ZMA for the long haul without a break?

Been taking it for 4 months now, and I missed one day. Otherwise 4 months straight. Have enjoyed my 8-9 hours of sleep per night and feel always ready to go. I take it 30-60 min before bed, and I usually haven't eaten since dinner about 2 hours.

Has worked wonders for me.

Garrett Smith
07-10-2009, 06:19 AM
George's results are pretty typical.

ZMA isn't magic. It's zinc + mag + B6. People (particularly athletes) are almost always deficient in at least the zinc and mag, so they feel better when they take it.

I tend to use citrates (not aspartates like in ZMA) with my folks, including Josh Everett, and I use "activated" or "methylated" B-vitamins typically (this would mean pyridoxal-5-phospate and not pyridoxine like in ZMA). Since they all come from separate sources, they can all be titrated much better than ZMA, IMO.

Joe Hart
07-11-2009, 12:45 PM
I have also been taking ZMA for about 4 months straight. Just lately I have been having vivid dreams again. Then again I finish eating at 530 and hit the rack at 1030 after taking ZMA between 10 - 1030. Not sure if that is why. My stomach didn't get upset from being empty and taking ZMA.

Brandon Oto
07-11-2009, 04:46 PM
Worth it for the dreams. Like legal, safe hallucinogens.

I also sometimes toss down a bunch as zinc supplementation if I'm coming down with a cold, which may or may not help but sure seems to.

Adolfo Riveron
07-12-2009, 09:58 PM
Been taking it for 4 months now, and I missed one day. Otherwise 4 months straight. Have enjoyed my 8-9 hours of sleep per night and feel always ready to go. I take it 30-60 min before bed, and I usually haven't eaten since dinner about 2 hours.

Has worked wonders for me.

George, were you a good sleeper before taking zma or has it made a noticeable difference? I struggle sleeping periodically and lately i have been waking up after 5-6 hours even after taking melatonin.

Also any recommendations on what zma you take?

Frank Needham
07-13-2009, 07:21 AM
I'm finding that any disturbances to falling asleep in the 30-60 minute window make my sleep.....disturbed.

For example, just moved into our new place and have pretty much gotten settled in except my boy hasn't quite gotten it that he'll be sleeping in his bed now. Raised a big stink and needless to say sleep was a problem that night.

On the other hand, if I'm really tired like last night, I sleep deeply even if I gotta get up to pee. Today I feel very sharp whereas after the night described above I was groggy, even punchy, all day long.

After a night of disturbed sleep I'm thinking that NOT taking ZMA the next night might work better for me.

Donald Lee
09-16-2009, 09:49 PM
Hey, I thought I'd let you guys all know what Lyle said about ZMA:

Zinc and magnesium are often deficient in athletes. There is NO reason to spend cash on their overpriced versions. Get generic zinc from anywhere and magnesium citrate from vitaglo.com And the b-6 keeps a lot of people awake.


I forget why they did it in the first place (something about being a cofactor I think) but it causes problems in a lot of people. An even better reason to buy zinc/mag separately and screw the commercial products.

Greg Davis
09-21-2009, 04:26 AM
anyone have an opinion on whether the natural calm brand of magnesium is worth the price versus say the mag citrate from now foods (such as is found on that vitaglo.com site)?

Brandon Oto
09-21-2009, 04:43 AM
Any thoughts on the possibility that the effect on dreams is solely the B6?

Garrett Smith
09-21-2009, 06:56 AM
Hey, I thought I'd let you guys all know what Lyle said about ZMA:

I agree with Lyle, although I do find the Natural Calm to be worth the extra price.

My patients would agree. Some come in on magnesium already, only to find they finally get the "results" they were looking for with magnesium supplements once they start the Calm.

I take them separately.

Aaron Gainer
10-05-2009, 09:47 AM
I tend to cycle my potassium and magnesium supplement every couple days(few days on, 1-2 days off). Seems to work well and my body doesn't always depend on it for sleep or relaxation!!

Jonathan Limbird
10-25-2009, 07:56 AM
Any thoughts on the possibility that the effect on dreams is solely the B6?

Take a vitamin B complex before bed, and I think you will have your answer.

Andy Robinson
12-01-2009, 08:27 AM
I had trouble sleeping thru the night on ZMA. I attibuted this to the B vitamins. I ran out of ZMA about 2 weeks ago and had no trouble sleeping without taking it. Got Zinc and Mag separately yesterday and woke up after about two hours, had trouble falling back to sleep.
What about taking these during the day? Any reason not to? Would they still be as effective for recovery, or is this combo something that is bedtime specific?

Garrett Smith
12-01-2009, 12:36 PM
I take mine during the day (at least the mag). I'd take the zinc in the morning if I could, but zinc on an empty stomach is no good.

I see no magic to taking it in the night-time. Just get the levels up, everything will be the same.

Blair Lowe
12-01-2009, 07:53 PM
How much better is ZMA than Cal-Mag-Zinc, Dr. G? I probably researched this a few years ago when I tried ZMA but I can't honestly remember.

Garrett Smith
12-01-2009, 08:18 PM
Most athletes don't need much more calcium, they nearly always need more magnesium.

The calcium issue IMO, is typically one of vitamin D deficiency (which is the signal for calcium to be absorbed by the intestines).

Jay Ashman
12-04-2009, 07:44 AM
I take ZMA nightly, have for a very long time and let me tell you how much I love it and the fact that I have gotten some insanely out of control dreams from it... I mean like whoa.

The science behind it is sound, and its one of those supplements that will only help and not hurt.

Garrett Smith
12-04-2009, 08:21 AM
Jay,
I don't believe there is any magic to the ZMA combo in particular.

Put simply, most athletes are deficient in zinc and magnesium. Correct that deficiency, the body functions more like it is supposed to. Nothing magic really.

The science is pretty sound that health and performance will improve with nearly any mineral deficiency that is corrected. Zinc and mag are simply HUGE players in that game.

Jay Ashman
12-04-2009, 12:56 PM
Garrett, magic or not... it works. So why mess with a good thing

Donald Lee
12-04-2009, 01:38 PM
Garrett, magic or not... it works. So why mess with a good thing

B/c it's overpriced. B/c believing in marketing hype is a bad mindset to have.

Jay Ashman
12-04-2009, 01:40 PM
Donald, I get mine pretty cheap... less than 10 bucks a month... and it works fine for me. Its extra zinc and mag..

Steven Low
12-04-2009, 02:04 PM
ZMA is pretty expensive actually, compared to cal/mag/zinc supplements. ZMA is like ~$10 per month and cal/mag/zn is like $3 per month.

Albeit there's some competitive inhibition with ca/zn IIRC. Albeit probably not big enough to be that detrimental.

Jay Ashman
12-04-2009, 03:48 PM
calcium and zinc kind of cancel each other out with absorption...

plus 10 bucks really isn't that much money for a month of something that works to get the basic needs down and really does help with the deep sleep.

Steven Low
12-04-2009, 04:03 PM
calcium and zinc kind of cancel each other out with absorption...

plus 10 bucks really isn't that much money for a month of something that works to get the basic needs down and really does help with the deep sleep.
They don't cancel each other out... they competitively inhibit.

e.g. the same transporters that move both of them into the body are probably both 2+ ion transporters.

Cheaper is much more worth it even if you have to take 1 extra tab/pill to cancel out the competitive inhibition.


edit: yep,
Calcium competes with magnesium, copper, zinc and manganese for intestinal absorption (Somer, 1995).

2+ ion transporters.

Taking one is not going to block the other except for 'some'. And it's probably not significant if you spread out the pill taking at different meals.

Donald Lee
12-04-2009, 07:13 PM
You can take zinc and magnesium separately, instead of in one pill with calcium, zinc, and magnesium.

Steven Low
12-04-2009, 11:40 PM
You can take zinc and magnesium separately, instead of in one pill with calcium, zinc, and magnesium.
True.

Well, I am speaking of convenience. I don't like swallowing lots of stuff so...

Jay Ashman
12-05-2009, 08:16 AM
Steven, I appreciate the clarification of that, that's kind of what I meant, albiet in very simple terms :D

I'll stick to the ZMA, I have no issues with spending 10 bucks a month for something that works, if I have to worry about a few dollars for spending, then I will cut out a few cups of coffee a month.

liz neufeldt
04-27-2010, 11:43 AM
I go with a cal-mag-zinc supplement. This gets all three components for me, and I make sure the supplement also includes vitamin D to help with absorption. Many people are deficient in vitamin D without realizing it anyway. I also find it helpful to go with a liquid cal-mag-zinc (http://www.seacoastvitamins.com/supplement/trace-mineral-research-liquimins-cal-mag-zinc-32-oz-6108)supplement, as this also helps with quick absorption. And the magnesium will definitely give you very vivid and lucid dreams, and it keeps many people awake, so I tend to take it earlier in the day (always with food since zinc shouldn't be taken on an empty stomach).