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chris hill
07-12-2007, 05:57 AM
can anyone advise on the immediate treatment for this? It seems to have crept in with an increase of training frequency and intensity after a lay off. Any hints or tips for treating it?

Mike ODonnell
07-12-2007, 06:24 AM
anything thing with "itis" is inflammation...so treat it like that...which of course would require Rest, Ice, Compression, Fish Oil, Less Omega 6s etc..etc. Time off usually is required but also look at your diet and make sure it is anti-inflammatory. (If you do a search for that I am sure you will find lots of threads on here with info....sorry too tired to type more as was up till 4am..)

Dr Mike has a thing on inflammation recently too
http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/?p=804
Numerous studies have shown that while carbohydrates in general cause more of an inflammatory response than other macronutrients, fructose specifically causes the most rapid and intense inflammatory response of all. Polyunsaturated vegetable oils of the omega-6 variety (the majority) are inflammatory, trans fats (all of which start out as vegetable oils) are the worst, and most of the fat of animal, fish and dairy origin are actually anti-inflammatory.

Ron Nelson
07-12-2007, 09:00 AM
I'm going out on a limb here (damn my use of unnecessary puns) and suggest some soft tissue work. Foam roll, use a tennis ball, deep tissue massage, ART, are all good ways to work the area above and below the knee.

The above methods got my elbow tendonitis (actually tendonosis as it was much more chronic than "itis") under control.

Not sure about those knee bands they sell. I used one on my elbow for a while and it didn't really help all that much.

Jesse Woody
07-22-2007, 07:33 AM
There's a good amount of evidence that jumper's knee, which is often called patellar tendonitis, is actually a condition called tendonosis which isn't as much a factor of inflammation as it's a gradual breakdown of callogen (sp?) in the tissue. Rest and a gradual return to exercise that focuses on eccentrics seems to be the ticket. Ice, ibuprofen, stretching and soft-tissue work can do something in the interim. I've been struggling with this for a number of months and it's a HUGE nuisance. Rest when you can, try to sleep a LOT and put ice on it every time you turn around. That will make it bearable.

A test you can do to find if it's an itis or osis is to rest ice and take ibuprofen consitently. If it's inflammation-related it should clear up in a week or so. For me, that hasn't happened, so I know there's a problem with actual necrosis of the tendonous tissue...ice and pain-killers dull it enough to continue training, which is a necessity at the moment. Good luck!

Here's a couple of links from various forums, etc. that I've found in my search for answers to this:

http://www.kneeguru.co.uk/kneegeeks/3680667701.html
http://www.kneeguru.co.uk/html/steps/step_05_patella/tendinitis.html
http://www.physsportsmed.com/issues/2004/0504/depalma.htm
http://www.physsportsmed.com/issues/2000/06_00/khan.htm

Greg Everett
07-22-2007, 03:09 PM
All good advice so far. I will add:

I would check out your rectus femoris - i'd be willing to bet it's super tight. kelly starrett in all his PT wisdom called that on me and as soon as I got those things loosened up, my knee pain disappeared.

So tons o' stretching of those quads/hip flexors, tons o' ice, and really take a lot of time warming up your legs before training.

Mike ODonnell
07-23-2007, 06:57 AM
I would check out your rectus femoris - i'd be willing to bet it's super tight. kelly starrett in all his PT wisdom called that on me and as soon as I got those things loosened up, my knee pain disappeared.

So tons o' stretching of those quads/hip flexors, tons o' ice, and really take a lot of time warming up your legs before training.

Otherwise known as the "I've been spending too much time on the leg extension machine" muscle.....Hmmmmmm.....Now we know where Greg has been working out....must be the new Cuts around the corner....

Oh yeah...take a foam roller, tennis ball and roll over that....if you love pain, you will certainly enjoy that...but it works.

Dave Van Skike
07-23-2007, 11:16 AM
Ice it. stretch, ice...

work the hell out of the joints above and below the knee, hip and ankles. the addice above is good re: staying active, working back in slowly. to avoid reflex atrophy in the VMO and patellar maltracking you need to stay active without aggravating the inflammation. a great excercise with F'ed up knees is KB or DB swings, RDL and straight leg DL. quads work in a stabilizing role

focus on loading the posterior chain, if you keep the weight on your heels you should be able to minimize tension on the knee joint...
work up very slowly.

chris hill
07-23-2007, 11:55 AM
thanks for all the advice, i'm soaking it all up and trying to implement as much as possible.

its coming up to two weeks of no squatting and minimal (once a week at rugby training) running. knee now feels fine and i plan to slowly start squatting and sprinting in another weeks time.

DVS, i've been doing just that, every training session i've been alternating between rack pulls, RDLs and single leg DB dl's.

Robb Wolf
07-23-2007, 03:22 PM
Chris-
Not to dog pile, but if you are doing any type of high rep squat'n ala-crossfit (squats, thrusters D-bal etc). It's imperative that you experience NO anterior knee translations during your movements. Again from the gaping maw of Kelly Starrett, this appears to wickedly tighten the R. Femoris and can contribute to significant knee dysfunction.

John Seiler
07-24-2007, 03:36 PM
Chris-
Not to dog pile, but if you are doing any type of high rep squat'n ala-crossfit (squats, thrusters D-bal etc). It's imperative that you experience NO anterior knee translations during your movements. Again from the gaping maw of Kelly Starrett, this appears to wickedly tighten the R. Femoris and can contribute to significant knee dysfunction.

Robb,

Would you please elaborate on that? Are you referring to Anterior Tibial translation? Also, what sort of form malfunction would we be looking for?

Thanks!!!

Robb Wolf
07-24-2007, 05:06 PM
John-
If you watch the person squat from the side the knee should not move forward AT ALL. It will not tighten the hip flexors in this way and shifts more loading to the hammies and adductors, especially if you keep the knees pushed out.

This will be tough to do in an olympic style squat.

Yael Grauer
07-24-2007, 05:26 PM
Pictures or videos please!

John Seiler
07-24-2007, 08:56 PM
Thanks, Robb! That's very interesting as I've been having some problems with my knees and have been doing high reps squats Oly style.

Greg Everett
07-24-2007, 09:21 PM
John-
If you watch the person squat from the side the knee should not move forward AT ALL. It will not tighten the hip flexors in this way and shifts more loading to the hammies and adductors, especially if you keep the knees pushed out.

This will be tough to do in an olympic style squat.

yeah... that's pretty much no longer a squat. it's a good morning.

i'm dubious about the not tightening the hip flexors part. if the knees stay back, the hips must stay back and the torso must come forward closing the hip angle more so than would occur in an upright torso, knees-forward oly squat. the knee angle will be larger, but i'm not convinced the RF would be shortened any less--it would just be shortened from the hip end instead of the knee end.

you'd have to really externally rotate the feet to get the knees wide enough to sit into a squat like that, and then it's jacking up the hips instead of the knees. and if you squat deep, it's going to put some serious torque on the knees, so there goes that.

i think the only solution really is to do all your training on one of these:
http://www.bean.com/?UID=G_TR_EXACT_the-bean&gclid=COixraHtwY0CFRMRQQodQEUHGw

John Vernon
07-24-2007, 09:38 PM
death stretch...legit.

Greg Everett
07-25-2007, 07:50 AM
death stretch...legit.

http://www.performancemenu.com/daily/index.php?show=daily&dailyID=23

Allen Yeh
07-25-2007, 09:12 AM
http://www.performancemenu.com/backend/daily/index.php?show=daily&dailyID=23

it asks for a username and password?

Greg Everett
07-25-2007, 09:16 AM
try this one:

http://www.performancemenu.com/daily/index.php?show=daily&dailyID=23

John Seiler
07-25-2007, 09:45 AM
I am SO down with something called "The Death Stretch". I'm not so sure about the Bean, though. Will it turn me from "wimp to pimp"?

On a side note, I've realized I've gotten away from single-leg movements: split squats, step-ups, etc, and been stuck in various forms of squats, cleans, and deads. I probably need to mix it up a little.

John Vernon
07-25-2007, 12:42 PM
thanks for the rebound Greg, I was trying to find that photo but couldn't.

Matthieu Hertilus
06-14-2009, 09:57 AM
Just noticed this thread and I'm pretty sure I may be suffering from this condition. I know I have to lay off load-bearing squats, full deadlifts, lunges, and o'lifts; however, I was wondering if it would still be safe to do only bodyweight squats and lunges? Even for a high number of reps?

Tom Rawls
06-14-2009, 10:09 AM
check out this thread.

http://www.performancemenu.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4163

lose the spartan avatar if you want to be taken seriously.