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Brandon Enos
07-12-2007, 11:33 AM
Earlier this week I posted a thread asking about ME Black Box and metcons to keep my weight loss going and keep strength as well. With the responses there, and reading on the forums that someone said they had they're best fat loss success with a 5x5 program, I decided Id give it a go for a couple months.

Heres what I was thinking of starting on Monday:
MWF
A-1: (BB) Power Clean and Press – 5x5
A-2: (BW) Pull-up – 5x5
B-1: (BB) Back Squat – 5x5
B-2: (BB) Dead Lift – 5x5
C-1: Power Wheel Roll Out – 3x6
C-2: Hanging Knee Raise – 3x10

T,TH
A-1: (BW) Dip – 5x5
A-2: (BW) Chin-up – 5x5
B-1: (KB) Suitcase Style Squat – 5x5
B-2: (KB) Double Swing – 5x5
C-1: Side Bend – 3x8 l, r
C-2: Double Overhead Walk – 3 rounds

I have a couple of questions on it.

A) Should I divide up the Squats and Dead Lifts and do one of them on T,TH instead of the suitcase squat and swing? The main reason that I am doing the deadlifts is to hit the lower back and back of legs, but I know they hit the quads as well, so I am a little concerned.

B.) Given the amount of different exercises there, should I change the Power clean and press to just a regular overhead press? With squats and deadlifts, could the cleans be to much?

C.) Any other critiques on the program?

Dave Van Skike
07-12-2007, 11:52 AM
Earlier this week I posted a thread asking about ME Black Box and metcons to keep my weight loss going and keep strength as well. With the responses they're, and reading on the forums that someone said they had they're best fat loss success with a 5x5 program, I decided Id give it a go for a couple months.

Heres what I was thinking of starting on Monday:
MWF
A-1: (BB) Power Clean and Press – 5x5
A-2: (BW) Pull-up – 5x5
B-1: (BB) Back Squat – 5x5
B-2: (BB) Dead Lift – 5x5
C-1: Power Wheel Roll Out – 3x6
C-2: Hanging Knee Raise – 3x10

T,TH
A-1: (BW) Dip – 5x5
A-2: (BW) Chin-up – 5x5
B-1: (KB) Suitcase Style Squat – 5x5
B-2: (KB) Double Swing – 5x5
C-1: Side Bend – 3x8 l, r
C-2: Double Overhead Walk – 3 rounds

I have a couple of questions on it.

A) Should I divide up the Squats and Dead Lifts and do one of them on T,TH instead of the suitcase squat and swing? The main reason that I am doing the deadlifts is to hit the lower back and back of legs, but I know they hit the quads as well, so I am a little concerned.

B.) Any other critiques on the program?

Too much.

I'd stick to 3 maybe 4 days a week. or an every other day format. For fat loss, you are getting way more bang from lowering kcal than tweaking your workouts or adding more effort....

Last year I lost 30 pounds and gained some strength along the way doing a a PTTP progression of 2 sets of 5 every day on DL and press. switched to 3 days a week of "one lift a day (http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=483048)" ala Dan John and then switched back to a standard 5x5, 3 days a week. All of these work fine, the key is controlling your diet. With thsi much volume you are going to be a hungry mother....that won't help.

I'd say 5x5 three days a week, MWF, lot's of walking and other NEPA (non-excercise physical activity) and a clean diet will get you closer to you goal faster. the bonus is that this is a pretty "simple" program..not super stressful and you will get stronger.

Think Simple...nothing is easy but almost everyhting that works is simple.

alternatively, you can clean up your diet as best you can and hammer away at crossfit style work and get to the same place eventually. My feelign is that if you have a lot of weight to lose and want to gain strength, that is not the most effective way.....upshot is..

you can be strong, you can be skinny, or you can be a metabolic machine but you can't work on all three at once. maybe two at a time but not three.

Brandon Enos
07-12-2007, 12:10 PM
That was one thing I was concerned about, keeping calories low on high volume, so three days a week will probably be better.

As far as diet, Ive done a very good job. With the exception of the 4th of July bbq, Ive followed a Fast-5/Paleo diet for the last month and a half. I dont think my calories have gone over 1,000 a day at all in that time period as well. In that time period, Ive lost ~30 pounds and am at 250 (I dont think Ive weighed 250 since my Jr year in high school). The rest of this week I am visiting my Grandparents until Sunday. For this reason Im going off the Fast-5, but Im sticking to the Paleo diet very well (only a few minor faulters).

Dave Van Skike
07-12-2007, 03:39 PM
Congratulations on your progress.

Mike ODonnell
07-12-2007, 05:13 PM
I agree, WAYYYY too much...3x a week is prob most you want to do with that workload...otherwise you risk overtraining, muscle destruction, immune system depression, thyroid crashing, etc....all that fun stuff. Less is more sometimes....actually most of the time. Go for FAT loss....not just weight loss....get plenty of protein to save those muscles....1000 cal a day seems really low...you might be surprised to add a few more calories in and see your weight loss...I mean fat loss...increase. You could also add in a refeed day...otherwise that metabolism will just slow down with the calorie defecit. You will see alot of people on here taking in 2500 cal, working out 2-3x a week, and still losing fat and gaining muscle....all on IF too....it's a wonderful thing once you get it down right. Don't be afraid to change things up to see how your body reacts....people grow more when they work out less....people lose fat once they get enough calories in from Paleo sources....etc..etc...

Brandon Enos
07-12-2007, 05:19 PM
Yeah, I always just say weight loss even though thats not what I mean, I need to work on that. I dont care what I weigh so long as I get my body fat low (perferably under 10%).

Quick question though. What counts as non-exercise physical activity? Should it be constrained to walking, or can you do more active things like play basketball, KB juggling, etc?

Mike ODonnell
07-12-2007, 07:53 PM
Quick question though. What counts as non-exercise physical activity? Should it be constrained to walking, or can you do more active things like play basketball, KB juggling, etc?

Whatever you like...one day could be basketball...one day hiking...etc....as long as your nutrition is right for your recovery and metabolism, then you can just do whatever you like....but wouldn't expect to do lots of high intensity work over and over and over....your body needs a break with more lower intensity esp if you are calorie defecit...

Here's a good article in general on training and types...
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/case-against-cardio/

Mark Joseph Limbaga
07-13-2007, 03:50 AM
here's a good read on the 5x5

http://www.eclipsegym.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=57

just change some of the exercises to suit your needs

Chris Forbis
07-13-2007, 04:17 AM
Sweet blog article MOD. I'm going to have to keep that one in my links to pass along to cardio freaks that want to argue...

Brandon Enos
07-13-2007, 08:05 AM
I agree with Chris Mike, nice find. Now if we could only get more people to realize it.

Thanks for the article Mark. I had a good idea of how to do the 5x5 from what I read on mikemahler.com, but its good to see information on a program at its source. And I definatly will have to change a few exercises. The bench aggravates my shoulders more than anything else (plus I never have spotters, so Im always scared that Im gonna drop it on myself). And as far as dynamic rows, not even 100% sure what they are, so I think Ill just stick to my pullups and chinups.

Brandon Enos
07-13-2007, 01:56 PM
I have another question too. Over the next few weeks, until fall semester starts, Im going to have a sem-hectic work schedule (any four days during the week for ten hour shifts) so I might have to do a workout at 7 AM one day, anytime I want on the next, and then at eight at night another, etc., I know that Ill have to see how I feel and go from there mainly, but anyone have any ideas how this might create changes in my Fast-5/Paleo diet?

Allen Yeh
07-13-2007, 06:12 PM
I have another question too. Over the next few weeks, until fall semester starts, Im going to have a sem-hectic work schedule (any four days during the week for ten hour shifts) so I might have to do a workout at 7 AM one day, anytime I want on the next, and then at eight at night another, etc., I know that Ill have to see how I feel and go from there mainly, but anyone have any ideas how this might create changes in my Fast-5/Paleo diet?

Do you get to know your work schedule the first day of the week or is it handed to you on a day by day basis?

It seems like that might be good for a light feeding/feasting template, for example:

Monday (workday)- workout at 7 AM, work at 9 AM - 7 PM, light feed 3-5 hours, sleep
Tuesday (non workday) - wake up 9 AM, workout 10AM, Heavy feed day 5+ hours), sleep
Wed. (workday) - wake up at 9 AM, workout 10 AM, Heavy feed day 5+ hours, work 8PM - 6 AM, sleep

Brandon Enos
07-13-2007, 07:40 PM
Its both begining of the week and day-by-day. Since Im not full time, it can change up to 7 o'clock the night before. Annoying, but it does pay good, (compared to my last jobs at least). And the overnight ones wont be a problem, everyone wants them because of the pay bonus, so no one ever gives them up...

Ill give that template a try, worst case scenario, I drop IF for a couple weeks and focus just on Paleo.

Allen Yeh
07-14-2007, 06:41 AM
Its both begining of the week and day-by-day. Since Im not full time, it can change up to 7 o'clock the night before. Annoying, but it does pay good, (compared to my last jobs at least). And the overnight ones wont be a problem, everyone wants them because of the pay bonus, so no one ever gives them up...

Ill give that template a try, worst case scenario, I drop IF for a couple weeks and focus just on Paleo.

For some reason I feel like keeping the IF would be easier to do than doing this type of crazy schedule without it. That way you don't start doing the grazing thing due to hunger for a missed meal or something.

Mark Joseph Limbaga
07-14-2007, 12:09 PM
I agree with Chris Mike, nice find. Now if we could only get more people to realize it.

Thanks for the article Mark. I had a good idea of how to do the 5x5 from what I read on mikemahler.com, but its good to see information on a program at its source. And I definatly will have to change a few exercises. The bench aggravates my shoulders more than anything else (plus I never have spotters, so Im always scared that Im gonna drop it on myself). And as far as dynamic rows, not even 100% sure what they are, so I think Ill just stick to my pullups and chinups.

You can do dips in place of bench.

For dynamic rows, you can do a youtube search on them

Dave Van Skike
07-14-2007, 12:14 PM
For some reason I feel like keeping the IF would be easier to do than doing this type of crazy schedule without it. That way you don't start doing the grazing thing due to hunger for a missed meal or something.

Yup..Allen's right on here. Focus on simple simple methods..., reduce the number of variables that could screw you up. metcon and density work are going to make you hungry, sprints won't but the temptation to push it into longer session of intervals is def. there. until you are below 20%BF, I wouldn't worry about the strong medicine of stuff like afterburn, timed sets and the CF girls.. etc. just focus on the easy, steady approach....

Paleo diet, IF if you want to......

and strength based progression at least three sessions a week with a squat, a pull and a push.

5x5 has worked for a huge number of people, I thrive on lower reps with higher percentages so I'm partial to lots of singles or sets of 3 or ladders of 1,2,3...all have worked for me while calorie restricted.

if you have to have extra workouts keep them un-programmed and spontaneous....do active stretching, ab work and pullups or skill practice with pet lifts that are fun like bent press or dumbell snatches or whatever floats your boat. do not add in heaps of metcon or "cardio" leave before you get remotely tired and just warmed up. stay fresh for your main workouts.

Steven Low
07-14-2007, 01:45 PM
Here's some other stuff to read if you're interested:

http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/table_of_contents_thread.htm

Part II specifically.

Brandon Enos
07-14-2007, 05:15 PM
I guess this info brings forth a couple more questions.

I noticed that whenever the 5x5 on a three day schedule is described, Wednesday (or the second day) is always different exercises than the 1st and 3rd days. Is there a specific reason for this?

Also, could and should squats and deadlifts be done on the same day?

Basically, heres what I have now:

Monday, Wednesday, Friday
A-1: (BB) Military Press 5x5
A-2: (BW) Pull-up 5x5
B-1: (BB) Back Squat 5x5
B-2: (BB) Dead Lift 5x5
C-1: Power Wheel Roll Out 3x6
C-2: Hanging Knee Raise 3x10

But depending on the reasoning as to why the different exercises and as to whether or not squats and deads can be done on the same day, I may have to change this.

-Ross Hunt
07-14-2007, 05:50 PM
JMO, but that still looks like an awful lot.

The traditional set-up seems to be something like this:

Monday + Friday
Back Squat 5x5
Overhead Press 5x5 alternated w/ pull-up 5x5
Power Wheel abs

Wednesday
Deadlift 5x5 or 5x3
Bench Press 5x5 or 5x3 alternated w/ some sort of row 5x5
Hanging knee abs.

-Ross Hunt
07-14-2007, 05:55 PM
Or everything Rippetoe says. (work up to a set of 5 on a regular basis, just keep adding weight...)


I've put two guys on his basic plan: Like the 5x5, except you're just working up to a set of 5. It worked fine for one guy while he stuck with it... not so much after he stopped lifting. It's working well for the other guy.

I'd do something like that myself if I didn't have oly stuff to figure into the equation... simple, quick, progressive workouts that don't leave you beat up.

Brandon Enos
07-14-2007, 05:57 PM
Well Im going off of the kettlebell 5x5 that I used to do, which where generally press, bent-over row, front squat, snatch, abs. But Im willing to bet the template you posted will be better given Ill be lifting much more than I ever would be lifting double kettlebells.

All I have to do is replace the bench with dips and I think that that will be pretty good.

Allen Yeh
07-14-2007, 06:15 PM
I guess this info brings forth a couple more questions.

I noticed that whenever the 5x5 on a three day schedule is described, Wednesday (or the second day) is always different exercises than the 1st and 3rd days. Is there a specific reason for this?

Also, could and should squats and deadlifts be done on the same day?

Basically, heres what I have now:

Monday, Wednesday, Friday
A-1: (BB) Military Press 5x5
A-2: (BW) Pull-up 5x5
B-1: (BB) Back Squat 5x5
B-2: (BB) Dead Lift 5x5
C-1: Power Wheel Roll Out 3x6
C-2: Hanging Knee Raise 3x10

But depending on the reasoning as to why the different exercises and as to whether or not squats and deads can be done on the same day, I may have to change this.

A true 5 x 5 alternating squats and deadlifts will not be pleasant. I would definitely NOT recommend doing that.

I know it's very hard and I do it too, but try not to get too hung up on the programming/designing part and lose sight of the actual program i.e. paralysis by analysis. Pick something, start doing it for a few weeks, tweak as necessary.

Pick a squat or deadlift variation
Pick a vertical or horizontal press
pick a vertical or horizontal pull
pick an accessory exercise i.e. good mornings, romanian deadlifts, pull throughs....etc

Example: true 5x5
Monday:
A: Squat
B1: standing DB overhead press
B2: weighted chinups
C: cable pull through 3 x 10

Wednesday:
A: rack deadlifts
B1: Barbell rows
B2: weighted dips
C: bulgarian split squat - 3 x 10

Friday
A: squat
B1: military press
B2: weighted pullups
C: romanian deadlift - 3 x 10

Monday
A: Deadlift...etc




What seems easy on paper is usually not so easy. Dan Johns OLAD seemed like cake to me at first glance....yeah ok 1 month later....ouch. Especially if you add the jump squats and clapping pushups.