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Ale Dileo
07-17-2007, 07:12 PM
Hi everyone, i'm a new member on this forum, but i read it every day since i started with IF ( march)... thank you all for your good advices, .. really great forum.
I'm IFing everyday on a Fast-five style, my eating window is from 6 pm to 8 pm and at 9 pm i go to bed (i wake up at 4 am), in the fast period i have only water and coffee and usually train at 2 pm with no pre or post WO meal.
Next week i'll go to the hospital for blood analisys at 9 am. I'm asking if 12 hours from the evening feast are enough.

Mike ODonnell
07-17-2007, 07:34 PM
I'm IFing everyday on a Fast-five style, my eating window is from 6 pm to 8 pm and at 9 pm i go to bed (i wake up at 4 am), in the fast period i have only water and coffee and usually train at 2 pm with no pre or post WO meal.

Just curious...how do you do the fast 5 if your eating window is only 2 hours? (aka not 5 hours...like the name says?) Not that there are any set rules for all this...just make sure it doesnt turn into too low a calorie diet which may cause muscle loss, immune depression, excess cortisol, and all that fun stuff.....also depending on how long your workouts are (less than 45min or hours) Pre or post amino acid supplementation may give you enhanced muscle saving and recovery....just a thought....usually after a workout your cortisol will rise...and having some sort of food will always help to reverse the levels and damaging effects of it....

Greg Battaglia
07-17-2007, 07:52 PM
Ale, I think 12 hours should be fine, although 14-15 hours would probably be best just to be certain that the results are accurate. Also, to testify to what Mike said, definitely increase your eating window unless you have some serious amounts of weight to lose. Although you may feel fine on this 2 hour feeding regimen initially, it will eventually catch up to you and your health will be drastically hindered. Take it from me, I've been there before. I think the fast 5 approach is great as long as you stick with Paleo food choices with an emphasis on healthy fats, greens, and some clean protein supplemented in. keep a 5-6 hours window for eating. Good luck with your test results, I'm sure they will be favorable.

Ale Dileo
07-18-2007, 05:05 AM
Thanks for the replies ... For “fast five style “ i'm meaning that no foods are allowed in the fasting period. Unfortunately my eating window can't be longer, due to my job ... however i'm able to eat my 2200 kcal from healty foods in two hours ... i'll consider to take some bcaa after WO.
Excuse me for my english but i'm posting from Italy ...

P.S. Blood analisys are only a programmed check-up ... actually i'm feeling good like ever.

Robb Wolf
07-19-2007, 08:55 AM
Benvenuti! Nicki mi insegna Italiano. Ci dice come va!

Ale Dileo
07-19-2007, 09:07 AM
Benvenuti! Nicki mi insegna Italiano. Ci dice come va!

WOW! It' s better than my english, of course!

Robb Wolf
07-19-2007, 09:11 AM
Thanks! She is a damn good instructor. We want to get to Italy next year. Where do you live?

Ale Dileo
07-19-2007, 11:29 AM
i live in the center of Italy, towards the east coast near the Adriatic sea .. do you know Pescara ... or Ancona ? If you came here in Italy get ready to spend a vacation full of cheat meals (but healthy foods of course).. i'll give you some good advices.

Allen Yeh
07-19-2007, 11:55 AM
I'll take some advice, I'm supposed to be in Naples in August for work.

Stuart Mather
07-19-2007, 03:40 PM
[QUOTE=Ale Dileo;16519] Unfortunately my eating window can't be longer, due to my job ... however i'm able to eat my 2200 QUOTE]

G'day Ale. Just curious. What job do you do that only allows you two hours to eat? And just to confirm, you've been doing this IF approach every day since March?.

Stuart.

Stuart Mather
07-19-2007, 07:20 PM
Although you may feel fine on this 2 hour feeding regimen initially, it will eventually catch up to you and your health will be drastically hindered. Take it from me, I've been there before. ....keep a 5-6 hours window for eating. Good luck with your test results, I'm sure they will be favorable.


If you can consume sufficient healthy (unprocessed low carb) calories in 2 hrs (one hour... ten minutes...?) why will such an IF approach necessarily hinder your health (whatsoever, let alone drastically)?. I would have thought it would only enhance it. Emphasis of course on the sufficient healthy calories.

For instance I can easily eat the best part of half a roast chicken and big green salad washed down with a strawberry/ goat yog/ whey protein isolate/casein protein isolate/2 raw egg/cream/ginger/cinnamon smoothie, in three quarters of an hour without bolting it. And with some left over to wash down supps.

I've only done this maybe ten times in 8 months of IF'ing. I like eating too much :D . But what's the metabolic catch?

Stuart.

Ale Dileo
07-19-2007, 07:40 PM
Allen :

if you come in naples save some time for Costiera Amalfitana (Capri,Sorrento,..) , .. really beautiful

Stuart :

yes, i confirm i'm IFing everyday since march. Regarding my job .. how can explain? i go all day 'round with my van charging drink dispensers (water,cola,coffee,...)

Greg Battaglia
07-19-2007, 10:11 PM
Stuart, I was implying that it may become difficult to eat enough calories in a 2 hour window, especially if you're on a Paleo diet. This is just my experience. If it works for you, then more power to ya. The main reasons it didn't work for me were insufficient calorie intake and eating too fast, thus packing in a lot of calories (although not enough to sustain me through the under eating phase) in a short time frame, causing all shorts of strange side effects like indigestion, heart burn, rapid or irregular heart beat, dizziness, dehydration, etc. Recently I've given up IF altogether (other than an occasional full day fast after a few days of hearty eating) and have seen a complete amelioration of all of these symptoms. Not to get off topic, but MY personal goal is to live as long as possible and in as good health as possible. No centenarian has ever been shown to eat one meal a day. They just eat natural food in moderation, enjoy a good social/family life, have low levels of stress, and work their butts off in jobs that they enjoy. As for your question pertaining to the possible reason why a small eating window may be bad: I feel as though loading the stomach up with tons of food in a short time period is an overload to the system in every possible way. Digestion, heart health, blood sugar and insulin levels all go haywire when you stuff yourself. That's why I say go with a longer eating window, so you can eat more moderate meals spread evenly throughout the window while still consuming all the calories you need without stuffing yourself. I think a lot of people were going to the extreme when eating every 2 hours was fashionable. They would carry around containers of food everywhere they went, like loonies. I think a lot of people are doing the same with If, absolutely gorging on large quantities of food expecting to live to be 100. The take-home message that I've gotten from IF, and really just all the research on dietary restriction in genera, is to not eat too much, and to not worry if food is not available. It shouldn't be a chronic stressor. Basically, I like what Art D. has to say. Just my 2 cents. If you get great results with what you're doing I'm jealous, because a small feeding window would do wonders for my social and school life.

Allen Yeh
07-20-2007, 02:59 AM
Allen :

if you come in naples save some time for Costiera Amalfitana (Capri,Sorrento,..) , .. really beautiful



Um sure! so...is that a place nearby?

Mike ODonnell
07-20-2007, 07:39 AM
Interesting thought....if you can put down 2100 calories in 2 hours....is there a point of diminishing returns when it comes to the IF window? For example if your goal is to lose fat and you are planning on taking in 1500 cal a day....does a 5 hour window of digestion better utilize the food for fuel vs a 2 hour window which may in fact have less impact on your fat burning efforts? Does a smaller window have more negative effects on your T4-T3 output/conversion ratio? Etc...etc....all answers that I do not know but you would have to experiment for yourself.....

Eating 2100 cal in 2 hours would be like me eating a large pizza every day and nothing else....sounds like a great idea but I just don't think it would be good for fat loss and muscle gain...or maybe I need to try it...Hmmmm...Guinness and Beer diet.....TM coming!

Stuart Mather
07-20-2007, 07:57 AM
As for your question pertaining to the possible reason why a small eating window may be bad: I feel as though loading the stomach up with tons of food in a short time period is an overload to the system in every possible way. Digestion, heart health, blood sugar and insulin levels all go haywire when you stuff yourself. That's why I say go with a longer eating window, so you can eat more moderate meals spread evenly throughout the window while still consuming all the calories you need without stuffing yourself. .

Yes I see your point Greg. Which may be why the 'eating window' approach to IF'ing is really not such a good idea after all compared to the 24/ 24 split where the eating 24 is moderate food intake all day (or the way I was doing it for most of the 8 months I've been IF'ing - dinner on the fast day and then normal meals the following day until dinner at the 23'rd hr leading into another 24 hr fast. My body got really used to the 24 hr fast. I was doing it on alternate days for nearly five months. I changed a couple of weeks ago to an eating window every day approach. Maybe the intermittency of alternating a day of normal eating with a longer fast day is the better approach, in terms of never having to eat large meals. I mean regular fasting obviously has health (and perhaps longevity) benefits. And large meals probably do have considerable metabolic drawbacks.

Perhaps the ideal may be moderate meals on the eat days, with plenty of small snacks in between , then a long fast day.

Just a point about DeVany's randomization imperative. He's not applying it to sleep is he? One night a good long sleep and the next burning the midnight oil?

Stuart

Jeff Bearden
07-20-2007, 10:31 AM
Greg,

I read the article you wrote on HumanaNatura.org on "Feast-Fast Eating For Superior Health". So, are you saying you don't believe that concept to be healthy anymore?

Greg Battaglia
07-20-2007, 12:05 PM
Stuart-
I think you're right on the money. Not only intuitively, but based on all of the documentaries that I've seen on contemporary H/G's, it appears that after they fast they don't go absolutely crazy with their first meal. They seem to eat a moderate quantity when breaking the fast, and then continue to eat plentifully for the next day or so until their food supply runs short. This makes sense too, because in the studies done on rodents, they similarly would have had plenty of time to relax and reload on calories in a moderate and enjoyable fashion. Coming from my own experience, I find that any time I eat heartily for a good 24-48 hours I actually feel ready for a fast, I'm sort of excited about it, I feel ambitious for the "hunt". When I eat one meal a day I feel drained and weak during the under eating phase and bloated and lethargic after the over eating phase. It's a lose-lose situation, your performance sucks, and you feel like shit after eating. I think the much longer feeding windows are more appropriate for folks like us that chase performance and well-being once we're already lean. Which brings me to the next topic.......

Jeff-
Good question, and I'm glad you ask so I can clarify. I still believe that the method I discuss in my article is valid, assuming several circumstances:
1) The dieter is eating a lower calorie diet (say, anything below 2000 calories/day) so that the method prevents the deleterious effects of gorging while still getting the benefits of IF and CR.

2) The dieter is overweight and needs to slim down before concentrating on performance and sustained well-being (thus, adhering to the above statement in #1.

3) The dieter, after losing all necessary weight, still feels good on this method. In this case it can be continued. It's all dependent on how the individual responds to this method long-term. If it works, then certainly stick with it.

4) The dieter doesn't care about bodyweight or gaining muscle mass (or any mass for that matter)

I try to liken this method, in the If world, to the initial stages of the Zone diet . A Zone dieter first starts out with a low level of fat intake (and a low calorie intake, consequentially) which helps the individual to lean out and get to a healthy weight. However, once optimal leanness is met, if the low calorie, low-fat Zone diet is continued performance begins to suffer. To combat this, the dieter will begin the "Athletes Zone" which consists of basically increasing fat blocks until performance begins to increase again. The same applies to IF, in my opinion. I think we can start to use the one meal a day plan for beginners that want to lean down until performance begins to suffer. Then, increase the feeding window in such a manner that will allow 1) adequate calories for performance and 2) Prevent the deleterious effects of gorging by allowing more moderate meals spread throughout the window.

On a final note, Mark Lundegrun, the creator of Humana Natura, has contacted me in praise of the method I've outlined on his website. He claims to have increased his energy and well-being significantly by eating one meal a day. He said he usually eats only about 1500 calories a day total. He's healthy and content with looking and feeling great, despite the fact that he's not an elite athlete. This method obviously works for him, just as the beginners Zone works for some people, when others need to convert to the athletes Zone for increased performance, etc. I think some will find that one meal a day works great for them long-term, but most (myself included) will need to eventually increase the feeding window until we can get enough calories, and in proper doses, until things improve again.

PS
This conversation has inspired me to give IF one last try before I throw it in the scrap heap. I've tried the EOD method and found it too intense. I'm going to give Art D's Every Third Day (ETD) method a try starting tomorrow and I'll keep you posted on how it goes. So basically, my breakdown is gonna look like this:

Day 1: Eat Ad Lib
Day 2: Eat Ad Lib
Day 3: Eat nothing

Start over

Mike ODonnell
07-20-2007, 01:14 PM
This conversation has inspired me to give IF one last try before I throw it in the scrap heap. I've tried the EOD method and found it too intense. I'm going to give Art D's Every Third Day (ETD) method a try starting tomorrow and I'll keep you posted on how it goes. So basically, my breakdown is gonna look like this:

Day 1: Eat Ad Lib
Day 2: Eat Ad Lib
Day 3: Eat nothing

Start over

Greg any particular reason you don't try an intermittent small daily fasting window (aka the fast five or whatever approach....6 hours...8 hours...). Anything would of course give benefit while still giving plenty of time for small meals. I could NOT go a day without food....I would eat off my hand personally....so yes I agree a 24 fast is too intense but I can manage a daily window and every day can be different for me depending on my schedule and exercise...2-7pm...5-10pm....1-9pm.....etc...

Leo Soubbotine
07-20-2007, 01:21 PM
Mike - I found it a lot easier to go 24/24 than Fast 5 or even Fast 9. May be because I was doing the morning till afternoon hours.

8am to 5 pm or 10 am to 3pm - I was pretty hungry every day.
With 24 hours - it's much easier for me.

Greg Battaglia
07-20-2007, 01:46 PM
Mike, I've found in the past that a six hour window does help a lot, however, the main problem with that is that it began to interfere with my social life. I generally go out at night and hang out with friends, etc. If I'm eating for 6 hours at night, and sticking with Paleo foods, that would mean that I must stay home every night until 10:00 or 11:00 just eating and preparing foods. Most people say IF is more convenient, for me it has been less convenient to be honest with you. As sad as it is, in our modern world of high demand and high stress setting aside 6 hours to do nothing but eat and cook is just not feasible. Keep in mind that I'm only 21 years old though, I'm sure when I'm married and settled down eating all night long will be a good method because I'll probably just hang in with the wife. For now, my friends call me every night to hang, which directly interferes with my eating window. Social life, in my opinion, is just as important to health as diet, so I found that eating at night is a problem. I'm going to try the ETD approach, but my gut feeling is that I'm going to end up switching it a more frequent eating pattern during the day with mild CR and low carb, and probably cut my eating time at say 6 PM, so I'll atleast get a mild IF. I don't know, lol, modern life sucks.

Stuart Mather
07-20-2007, 03:54 PM
Greg, Art DeVany's fast lengths are usually about 15 hrs, aren't they, in random pattern, which probably works out to about 2 days a week.

Stuart.

Greg Battaglia
07-20-2007, 04:17 PM
Stuart-
Art actually does both methods. On most days he eats 2-3 meals up until 6:00pm and then fasts overnight until 9:00am. Additionally, he "tries" to do a 24 hour fast every third day in addition to his 15 hour overnight fasts. I don't know how consistent he is with it, but he does mention that he likes to keep it random, as you noted. I think he just uses the ETD method as a loose template.

Stuart Mather
07-20-2007, 10:14 PM
Thanks for the clarification Greg. Yes that daily 'normal' overnight 15 hr fast combined with a 'random occasionally regular' much longer fast does sound ideal in terms of reaping the hormonal/metabolic/gene expression benefits of fasting without the downside of huge meals or calorie shortfalls.

When I was doing the 24/24 approach I found the only difficulty was with the fast breaking meal not turning into an evening of eating. If I could have made that evening meal moderate, and stopped eating by say 7.30pm and broke the overnight fast the following morning at 8am and ate at lib until finishing dinner by 7pm that evening, I'd probably still be doing IF this way now. But I always seemed to go to bed with a full stomach, which everyone advises against.

But perhaps the physiological benefits of breaking the 24 hr fast with moderate eating from say 7pm to about 10.30 (as opposed to gorging quickly and then not eating again that evening) far outweigh the negatives of sleeping soon after eating.

I'm curious also about your mention of the HG evidence that fast breaking eating was never gorging. Is that really true? Most wild animals (particularly meat eaters will really feast after a long awaited kill. I do however take your point that the centenerian evidence is clearly in favour of moderate food intake. But then they had no reason to fast. We IF'ers are simply choosing to do it because the experimental evidence is compelling that it confers health/ longevity benefits.

So the take home message surely is that moderate food intake (in terms of calorie intake/time is paramount. And then however long a fasting period can be endured (less than the 48 hr free amino acid pool available window of course) without the breaking of it being a pig out, so much the better.
Does that sound right?

Stuart.

Ale Dileo
07-20-2007, 10:26 PM
Um sure! so...is that a place nearby?

100 km or so, ... you "must" go there!

about my way of IFing : I love this aproach because it separate the working time from the eating and relaxing time,.. this produce in me much less stress and improve the quality of life. In any case i'll try to stretch my eating window ..

Mike ODonnell
07-21-2007, 07:05 AM
If I'm eating for 6 hours at night, and sticking with Paleo foods, that would mean that I must stay home every night until 10:00 or 11:00 just eating and preparing foods.

I'm old at 35 and still don't let IF run my social life, in fact it really doesnt interfere....you can always pick from foods at any restraunt....I hate to cook so I find places I know will have stacks of meat, healthy fats and been known to do Guinness on occasion too....I may not be eating Grass fed beef in my fajitas....but my body needs some toxins every now and then to keep the immune system finely tuned and in practice. At least that is what I am sticking with.....of course who knows how it all plays out in the end..as I could live to be 99 or die at 40 from a freak drink coaster accident....

Greg Battaglia
07-21-2007, 11:50 AM
Stuart-
I think your right on. All of the studies done on rodents had a much longer eating window than 2 or even 6 hours. The norm was 24 hours fast/24 hours eat. As for the H/G's, that is simply just a observation that I've made on my own. I've seen quite a few documentaries on different H/G groups and the main message that I got from their eating patterns was that they were 1) highly random and 2) didn't fast on a daily basis, but actually ate quite randomly and plentifully when food was available. When food was short the fast usually lasted a day or so. I'd say H/G's would have to fast a couple times a week, but certainly not everyday. Also keep in mind that humans are omnivores, not carnivores. Observing carnivorous behavior can tell you nothing about human eating patterns. Additionally, I think it's also important to consider what your "feast" consists of. I find if I'm feasting and eat lots of fruits, vegetables, and nuts relative to meat I seem to have the most problems. When I eat mostly just meat and fat I can eat a hell of a lot more without any adverse effects. This makes sense as I highly doubt that H/G's would feast on much plant foods if they have a freshly caught animal carcass to feast on. Plants were probably more of back-up foods. Anyway, I think we need to start focusing on centenarian lifestyles versus H/G lifestyles if our goal is to live as long as possible and in as best shape possible. We've no doubt obtained priceless info from studying primitive man, but the truth is that we're probably batting a thousand by hoping to live to 100 by emulating people who to their 30's on average. I'm not saying that living Paleo won't produce centenarians, I'm just saying that we're better off studying people who actually reach 100 if that's our goal. Not surprisingly, there are a lot of similarities between the Paleo lifestyle and the centenarian lifestyle. The most obvious are nutrient dense foods in moderation, strong family/social ties, low stress, and a physically active lifestyle. Anyway, a bit of topic, so I'll just end saying that I'm very confident that a much longer (say 24 hour, as in the studies) eating window is the way to go with IF. The method you describe in your post seems really similar to Dr. Mike Eades description of what worked well for he and his wife. Check it out here if you haven't already http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/?p=278

Ale Dileo
08-17-2007, 02:50 AM
I'm resuming this thread to put under your attention the results of my blood test. It' s all ok except the cholesterol levels

Total 278 mg\dl
Hdl 113 mg\dl
Ldl 147 mg\dl
Triglycerides 61 mg\dl

well , I know that high cholesterol isn't an issue and high hdl level is good .. just curious to know if there could be a “too much” issue even with the hdl. However I'll keep on track with my low-carb hi-fat paleo eating and repeat the test in 3 months.

Robb Wolf
08-17-2007, 06:20 AM
Ale-
it looks pretty damn good...the ldl/hdl ratio is 1.3...anything less than 4 is considered "good". Triglycerides look pretty good...they will likely improve wiht time.

Are you supplementing with fish oil? What is your exercise like?

Chiao!

Ale Dileo
08-17-2007, 07:16 AM
Ale-
it looks pretty damn good...the ldl/hdl ratio is 1.3...anything less than 4 is considered "good". Triglycerides look pretty good...they will likely improve wiht time.

Are you supplementing with fish oil? What is your exercise like?

Chiao!

Ciao Robb (without the "h", .. if your teacher could see...;) )

Yes, i'm supplementing with fish oil, some day 10 gr, other days 5 gr .. depends on what kind of fats are included in my meal.

Regarding the exercise, .. mostly short (20 min) and intense weightlifting sessions (abandoned cardio long time ago, I'm doing enough cardio during my working time), .. sometimes HIIT sessions.

Robb Wolf
08-18-2007, 07:23 AM
Ciao Robb (without the "h", .. if your teacher could see...;) )

Yes, i'm supplementing with fish oil, some day 10 gr, other days 5 gr .. depends on what kind of fats are included in my meal.

Regarding the exercise, .. mostly short (20 min) and intense weightlifting sessions (abandoned cardio long time ago, I'm doing enough cardio during my working time), .. sometimes HIIT sessions.

Sorry on the H!:) I'm still unlearning portuguese.

Looks good on the suplements and exercise.