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Shannon Clark
07-20-2007, 09:18 PM
So I was just wondering if I could get a few opinions on this.

I've been doing IF for a while now (had the other thread going) and am thinking I might start trying to reduce my carbs lower as I think I'll feel better this way.

My diet is modified though and I'm moving slightly away from pure IF in that I'm eating two large protein/carb meals in the morning (pre/post workout) and then again right before bed, then snacking on fat sources during the day.

What I'm wondering though is how low I could take my carbs, particularly post-workout without starting to see a decline in my workouts?

Right now I have a shake and a bowl of oatmeal before working out (20 grams carbs), then after the workout again I have protein shake, oatmeal and then cottage cheese, which is totalling about 54 grams of carbs (30 from oatmeal and 24 from cottage cheese).

Would it be alright to cut the oats out so then I was left with just 24 grams carbs from cottage cheese?

My daily intake of carbs then would be about 70 grams or so plus carbs from vegetables (which I eat quite a bit of so likely put me around the 100 gram mark).

My protein intake would be 175 grams and fats would come in at 75 grams.

Chris Forbis
07-21-2007, 08:26 AM
Obviously, trial and error will tell you the answer, but my personal history says averaging 100g of carbs a day should be sufficient for most training. It will largely be dependent on what type of training you are doing.

By my count, you will be at 675 calories from fat, 376 from carbs, 700 from protein, which seems a bit high on protein (relative to everything else). You may want to up the fat some. You might look at a Zone baseline with some carb blocks deleted and replaced with an equivalent amount (calorie wise) of fat blocks.

Shannon Clark
07-21-2007, 10:30 AM
Thanks for the replies. I'm hoping 100 grams wouldu be enough.

Normally my training is weights 3 days on, one day off, performing usually 5 exercises per session, 3-4 sets per exercise. Then I do about 20-25 minutes of walking afterwards and otherwise am mostly sedentary for the rest of the day.

When the time comes to add more calories though, i can defintely add more from fat.

I was wondering on the protein issue, I posted before (I was eating even more protein back then, less fat and more carbs) and it was raised I might start burning muscle for fuel since my protein was so high.

At which point would this be a risk? (say what % of energy coming from protein) - or would this only matter if I was in a deficit?

Obviously some of the protein I'm eating at this point will be turning to glucose anyway, so maybe that would also help with fatigue not been seen while taking in fewer carbs?

kevin mckay
07-21-2007, 10:35 AM
I usually stay between 40 and 160

John Vernon
07-21-2007, 11:51 AM
What I'm wondering though is how low I could take my carbs, particularly post-workout without starting to see a decline in my workouts?

I've been going low on the carbs throughout the day and then adding some (not all) of them back in for my PWO meal in the form of sweet potatos and other dense carb sources.

Shannon Clark
07-21-2007, 10:16 PM
I've been going low on the carbs throughout the day and then adding some (not all) of them back in for my PWO meal in the form of sweet potatos and other dense carb sources.


What % of carbs is your diet? Would it be okay to get most of my carbs from 'non-traditional' sources (primarily cottage cheese).

James Hall
07-22-2007, 01:59 AM
Similar to my questions...I've begun to clean up my diet (again) and notice that when I move to low, quality carbs + IF my body goes a bit nuts. I worked out 2x yesterday...strength AM, intervals + trunk work PM, quality protein (per Drs. Eades advice). Went to bed by 9:30, awoke at 3 AM starving. Nothing but good, quality carbs with the meals.
Am I missing something? Not complaining, as the fat is falling off.

Robb Wolf
07-23-2007, 03:32 PM
I've been doing most of my carbs post WO for quite some time. Usually in 60-140g...watermelon is the main source of late and I really like it. I never need more than this level and frequently I am below this level. That seems to fall right into Zone/Protein Power life-plan recommendations and I feel good on this.

Joyce Behrendt
07-23-2007, 09:22 PM
You guys are way more expert than I am, but just thought I'd mention the adaption period when going lower in carbs.

Dr. Stephen Phinney studied a ketogenic diet and performance. Here is one article about it by Dr. Jonny Bowden:

http://www.ppcchicago.com/articles/lowcarb.php

Phinney’s studies were pretty involved, but here’s the Cliff’s Notes version: After a period of adaptation (which took from one to two weeks), exercise performance was just fine, thank you. The only thing that was slightly depressed was sprint capability. Phinney did one study on untrained subjects and another on highly trained athletes. In both cases, there was no loss of VO2 max despite the virtual absence of dietary carbs for 4-6 weeks.

Here’s the bottom line, according to Phinney (and interpreted by me). Number one: If you’re looking at how an athlete performs in the first few days after going on a low carb routine, forget it. They’ll suck. There’s a period of adoption of at least one and maybe two weeks before performance gets back up to previous levels. (Many of the studies dissing low carb diets just didn’t go long enough to see that happen).

Number two: Phinney optimized mineral intake. In a lot of the “low carb” diets studied, folks just didn’t take in enough potassium (and sodium.) Phinney made sure that they did. It makes a huge difference in the cardiovascular reserve and in the preservation of lean body mass.

Finally, number three, all “low carb” diets are not created equal. Phinney found that the protein dose was critical. Effective preservation of lean body mass and physical performance happened when protein was in the range of 1.2 to 1.7 grams per kilogram of body weight (pay attention- it’s 1.2- 1.7 kilograms of body weight, not per pound!) The best results came when there was plenty of dietary fat. The headache and fatigue sometimes felt by people who take on a “low carb high protein diet” frequently happens when people are eating way too much protein and not enough fat.

Shannon Clark
07-23-2007, 10:08 PM
You guys are way more expert than I am, but just thought I'd mention the adaption period when going lower in carbs.

Dr. Stephen Phinney studied a ketogenic diet and performance. Here is one article about it by Dr. Jonny Bowden:

http://www.ppcchicago.com/articles/lowcarb.php

Thanks for posting all that, it's definitely an interesting read.

So now I'm wondering, you go through the 2 week period of low carbs, feeling not so great and then adapt and performance improves again.

This is assuming you are in ketosis? What would happen if you had low carbs but not under 100, say 150 grams or so. (in order to get to ketosis you need under 100 correct)?

Would you then be stuck waving in the zone of not performing well at all, basically like you are in a long term adaptation period?

Robb Wolf
07-24-2007, 05:11 PM
Shannon-
It's tough to tell...we have seen people all over the place on this. No doubt there is an adaptation period, some seem to fare better than others at very low carb levels even with high intensity activity.

Shannon Clark
07-24-2007, 10:10 PM
Yah, it would make sense for individual variances.

Another thing I was wondering on, so it takes being below 100 grams of carbs to go into ketosis correct?

Now, lets say you eat 120 grams of carbs, but are burning off 40 gram through cardio, would that still enable you to enter ketosis since you are only 'netting' 80 then?

And also, lets say you are eating 80 grams of carbs per day, but your protein intake is higher than 1 gram/lb so some is being converted via gluconeogensis (for examples sake, lets say 50 grams of protein are being converted).

So would that then net you at 130 total carbs and bring out of fat adaptation and ketosis?

Bo Bolund
07-25-2007, 08:30 AM
I try to eat at least 100 gram of carbs... too low carb count will induce ketosis and increase cortisol levels.

Robb Wolf
07-25-2007, 03:01 PM
Shannon-
It's not a clear cut thing with ketosis. Some of the research into intermittent fasting indicates ketosis can be maintained even during high (60% of carbs) intake. I'd actually say that the main determinants are 1-insulin sensitivity and 2-hepatic glycogen status.

so maintain insulin sensitivity, and minimize fructose consumption. If you REALLY want to evaluate whether you are in ketosis buy some keto strips and monitor pre/post WO ketone levels at various carb intake levels.

Honestly I'd wait for fall and winter to mess with the ketosis thing...that is more the time of year for that anyway.

Shannon Clark
07-25-2007, 10:19 PM
Shannon-
It's not a clear cut thing with ketosis. Some of the research into intermittent fasting indicates ketosis can be maintained even during high (60% of carbs) intake. I'd actually say that the main determinants are 1-insulin sensitivity and 2-hepatic glycogen status.

so maintain insulin sensitivity, and minimize fructose consumption. If you REALLY want to evaluate whether you are in ketosis buy some keto strips and monitor pre/post WO ketone levels at various carb intake levels.

Honestly I'd wait for fall and winter to mess with the ketosis thing...that is more the time of year for that anyway.

Thanks for the ongoing help. I think I might look into the keto strips, just out of curiosity it would be interesting. The only reason I would go so low carb to get to ketosis I think is if it had some type of strong hunger supressing benefits.

It's interesting, these last few days I've been playing around, eating more fat calories during the day while reducing carbs slightly (though still not below 100 grams) and I notice when eating the small amount of fats outside my two big meals, I'm okay at first after eating them, but then I do feel hungry about an hour or two later. Then I eat more and the cycle repeats itself (these are small servings...50-75 cals). The hunger is a fairly sharp kind of hunger and something I feel like I do want to satisfy.

When I was going without the eating, I'd reach a point where I definitely felt strong hunger but if I pushed through then normally it would die down in an hour or so or else would become a much more dull sort of hunger that was more tolerable.

Just kind of interesting to see how the body responds to different things. I would like to see though if in ketosis what it would be like.