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Greg Davis
09-17-2007, 02:17 PM
I was going to reply in another thread after reading Jordan say this:
IF is difficult without proper diet. Eating too much of the wrong foods, in small windows will magnify your dietary mistakes.

But thought this might derail Heidi's thread. I think this is an important point that if you have a smaller eating window it can be difficult to make the right choices. There are times when I string together a few days of undereating because I delay my first meal and then mess up by jamming in the wrong foods.

A conclusion I've come to recently that I'd be interested to see if others feel the same way:

If you're going to eat a big serving of nut flour/butter, leave it to your last meal or times when you won't be eating for a while after. How many times have you broken a fast like a starving POW and gorged on nut butter at your first meal... then your appetite is effectively over for the rest of the day. For me I like to have a variation of those pmenu "paleo pancakes" but they are so filling that I'll find myself having to eat when not hungry if not careful with those. Same with the chocolate balls recipe..

I know nuts/seeds shouldn't really be a staple of the diet but I do rely on them for calories quite a bit..

Jordan Glasser
09-17-2007, 03:02 PM
It's funny that you mention nut butters, because that's where I personally think caused the most trouble for me. I was using nut butters to fill me up after a fasting. It was the only thing that really helped me feel full. But, they were difficult on digestion, and left me tired and lethargic. My conclusion was a little different, it was more digestion related, but the results from my study of one would have been the same. Staying away from high volume nut butters/seeds.

I fell into this trap repeatedly because I was eating 1 or 2 big meals a day. So, if I chose a food, I ate alot of it. which brought out my point of magnifying improper diet. Small amounts of nuts or seeds I can get away with, large amounts proved to be a different story. I have since cut out many of the foods I was using to get my fats, and feel much better. They were, avocados, almond butters, whole almonds, macadamia nuts, and walnut oil. It's now olive oil and coconut oil only.

I guess it comes down to really cleaning up your diet before you IF. I know it's stressed on this site, but, most of us don't eat as well as we think. IF, in my opinion has helped me make these discoveries, and am grateful for every mistake I have made along the way!

Greg Davis
09-17-2007, 06:54 PM
Interesting... yeah its a work in progress for me in terms of figuring out what makes me feel lethargic. I know that ideally I would just eat meat/veggies/oil but the thing I find is I don't have a lot of time to spend on preparing meals with proper spices etc. so its hard to make such strict meals really appetizing. So I find myself yearning for things like nuts/seeds, fruit, cheese occasionaly etc. And also unless I just down copious amounts of olive oil I'm gonna have a hard time keeping much weight on being extremely strict- unless I can find a paleo chef whos willing to work for me pro bono (Scott?). Pmenu is a great help and when I come across a recipe that works well I try to store it away so that eventually I accumulate my favorite ways to prepare meat&veggies.

I think an aspect of diet that is often overlooked is that it is probably very important (literally in terms of how your body reacts) for meals to be appetizing (looks, smell, flavor). I'm no scientist but I know that I can feel my body preparing for a meal when it gets all hyped up on the smell of a properly cooked meal versus jamming down a serving of meat & veggies to quickly get in what I know are ideal foods nutritionally. For example, ever been on a camping trip where something about the outdoors etc. got you so stoked on the meal you were about to eat you were drooling at every bite even though you could be eating this same food in daily life and think nothing of it? It feels like there has to be some enzyme secretion (or something scientific sounding) that your body is doing that makes for improved digestion.

That being said, one can also take great satisfaction in applying the accumulated knowledge of paleo/IF/etc. and get stoked on their foods based on the knowledge/perception that it is the ideal food to be eating from a health standpoint.

Bit of a tangent there but basically I'm currently trying to keep nuts/seeds and fruit to moderate amounts and especially stay away from nuts if I know I need/want to eat again in just a few hours.

Troy Archie
09-17-2007, 08:29 PM
Yeah I'm in the same boat as you guys with the nut butters plus I find them addictive and could eat the entire jar.

I totally recommend Scotty's olive-oil mayo recipe in PM issue 28. I make up a 2 cup batch every couple days and go at it; its freaking good. Throw it on a big pile of greens, throw in a couple cans of tuna and you got a great meal. My nick name at work is Big Salad.

Nathan Stanley
09-18-2007, 10:19 AM
My nick name at work is Big Salad.
Nice Seinfeld reference.

Garrett Smith
09-18-2007, 10:25 AM
Nut butters are great before bed to get rid of the hungries without having any carbs...

Troy Archie
09-18-2007, 11:00 AM
Nut butters are great before bed to get rid of the hungries without having any carbs...

That's not entirely true is it? There is a little...more in cashew butter than any other...

Nathan Stanley
09-18-2007, 12:15 PM
I don't think cashews and peanuts are considered paleo.

Garrett Smith
09-18-2007, 12:48 PM
Technically, there are a couple grams of carbs, yes.

I must guess that the insulin effect of almond butter's several carbs sure isn't anything to concern oneself about at all...

Scott Kustes
09-18-2007, 05:45 PM
Cashews aren't due to the processing required to get past the poisonous layers protecting it. Or something like that. Peanuts aren't because they are legumes.

Scotty Hagnas
09-18-2007, 07:47 PM
I find the nut butters to be pretty addictive, also. How many times have I filed myself up with nut butter, then had to stuff down more food when full.... I really need to make the mayo more often.

Troy: Big Salad is the best nickname I've heard in a while.

Troy Archie
09-18-2007, 08:17 PM
I must guess that the insulin effect of almond butter's several carbs sure isn't anything to concern oneself about at all...

Why is that? Is it because there's so much fat and it slows the digestion process down?

Jane Michel
09-18-2007, 09:59 PM
i agree about being careful with nuts, seeds and peanut butters. for me peanut butter makes me the most lethargic. my workouts are terrible even 12 hours after a HUGE helping.

why do large servings of nuts and seeds especially peanut butter do this?

Steve Liberati
09-19-2007, 04:27 AM
Been fasting every other day now for the last several months. A fast will typically end around 5 PM. I'll usually break the fast with a "Loaded Salad" that is loaded with your typical paleo fare. Somedays the salad will keep me filled for the rest of the night with a small snack a few hours later leading up to bed (ex. small serving of scrappled eggs, handful of pistacios/mixed nuts, or whatever paleo I'm in the mood for at the time). Other days, for whatever reason, the salad doesn't fill me up for squat and I'll follow with a nice hearty, balanced meal 2-3 hrs later.

I think that is what ultimately makes a fasting day so special (and effective). "Anything goes." AS long as you stay paleo eat you can eat how much your stomach desires. Listening to our bodies is KEY and there is no better time to be attentive than after breaking a fast.

On feed days...I'll eat my regular amount of calories which consist of paleo only foods using zone numbers.

So far this has worked great for keeping my performance up, body fat down, energy levels stable throughout the day and the rest of the guages we use to track our progress.

If we really are taking our IF model from our muscle bound, primitive ancestors who were free of the diseases that plague modern man today, I think the better we try to imitate there patterns, the better off we'll be. Think about - I highly doubt they ever worried about counting calories or concerned about the quantity of their serving, especially after running around all day on empty looking for food to bring back to their camp.

Garrett Smith
09-19-2007, 05:40 AM
Peanut butter is a bean (hard to digest) and is covered in aflatoxin (a mycotoxin that is a strain for the liver to process). That's why you feel like crap after peanut butter.

Or you could just say the Black Box told you not to eat it.

Edward Friedman
09-19-2007, 07:30 AM
Nut butters are great before bed to get rid of the hungries without having any carbs...

Can a paleo adherent say, Amen ! :) I recently made the same discovery independently. A few times I've sabotaged my otherwise clean eating window with a starchy and/or sweet carb binge. While I can feel driven to munch and of course rationalize it as I march zombie-like to the fridge or pantry, I usually feel bad about it afterward. ( Swollen ring finger the morning after is an interesting-inflammation?- and undesirable personal post starchy/sweet carb binge symptom for me.)

Anyway, a few nights ago I "discovered" Cascadia Farms frozen organic blueberries with Organic almond butter, late in my window. Munchy fire extinguished ! Hooray ! The town rejoices ! The "experiment" was repeated successfully on subsequent nights. It will now be a staple when the Carb-Craving Demons attack.

Scott Kustes
09-19-2007, 08:38 AM
I made a Paleo "cereal" that will fill up anyone. Unfortunately I had it before breakfast one morning and had a tough time eating my eggs and sardines.

Handful of almonds covered in almond butter with cinnamon. Then I poured half a can of coconut milk over them and ate it with a spoon. That amount of fat will put a stop to any craving. Or any desire to eat for the next 6 hours for that matter.

Troy Archie
09-19-2007, 12:44 PM
On feed days...I'll eat my regular amount of calories which consist of paleo only foods using zone numbers.


Do you make up for missed out calories from your fast day?

Steve Liberati
09-19-2007, 03:49 PM
Do you make up for missed out calories from your fast day?

Not really. I eat at least 5 solid meals on feed days which if you were to break it down probably comes out to around 20-22 blocks or so. Each meal I try to take in at least 40 grams of protein, 30 grams of carbs (usually a piece of fruit and some raw veggies) and aro 30-35 grams of fat. Of course this is never exact and no two feed days in a week are ever the same.

The numbers don't mean a thing to me, as long as I:
1.) stay strictly paleo.
2.) balance out my macros
3.) eat 4-5 meals
4.) focus on quality, appetizing meals
5.) eat lean protein sources and healthy fats

Hitting those targets, everything else pertaining to my diet usually tends to fall in place. Between work, life and training who has time to cook, prepare and weigh out food anyway?

Between eating "No limits" paleo meals on feed days and IF on other days life has become sooo much more convenient...not to mention all the positive effects I've noticed outside the kitchen.

Troy Archie
09-20-2007, 08:32 PM
I've been thinking about digestion and fasting lately. I've been taking probiotics during my fast window. My mind set is that since I'm giving my digestive style a rest, why not proliferate it with benificial bacteria to help out my immune system and help clean out my digestive tract...

Jane Michel
09-20-2007, 08:46 PM
Peanut butter is a bean (hard to digest) and is covered in aflatoxin (a mycotoxin that is a strain for the liver to process). That's why you feel like crap after peanut butter.

Or you could just say the Black Box told you not to eat it.

thanks for explaining PB garrett. does that mean that all beans (or legumes??) are also hard for the body to digest and if eaten in big amounts would make us feel like crap?

Garrett Smith
09-21-2007, 06:29 AM
That would be correct.

The only bean that makes a semi-regular appearance in my diet is fermented soybeans (the fermentation process destroys the isoflavones/antinutrients and pre-digests them): miso, wheat-free tamari, tempeh, and (very rarely) natto.

Well, okay, I'll admit I ate some edamame at the AYCE sushi place last week, when they took way too long to get the order out...

Heidi Anschultz
09-21-2007, 04:31 PM
I thought soy contained estrogen-mimicking hormones that promote hormonal imbalance in the body. That's what Ori Hofmekler says anyway, and I've read up on many Weston Price articles that unfermented soy is really bad.

Maybe you should check up on the soy and maybe even limit your consumption of it, because even the Japanese don't make it a main staple of their diet. I would think eating it does more harm than good too.

Garrett Smith
09-21-2007, 05:08 PM
Heidi,
You're absolutely right about unfermented soy. I eat only fermented soy, except on a very rare occasion.

Regular soy and soy products are likely not good for anyone, however, there are many positive studies on fermented soy products (and no one even bothers an argument in that area that I've seen).