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John Seiler
09-20-2007, 03:43 PM
To get or not to get? I've never gotten them in the past as I'm not a fan of unnecessary medication. It's also been at least five years since I've had the flu. So I wonder if a.) I've been lucky, b.) the shot isn't necessary for people who take reasonable care of themselves, or c.) I'm just so darn handsome the flu looks at me and says, "I couldn't". I'd like to believe it's the latter, but suspect it's one of the first two.

Any thoughts on the risks to benefit ratio of flu shots?

Garrett Smith
09-20-2007, 06:03 PM
I wouldn't touch them and I advise my patients to avoid them.

Read "The Sanctity of Human Blood", for a good education on the actual massive lack of data on vaccine effectiveness.

William Hunter
09-20-2007, 06:03 PM
John Seiler doesn't get the flu, the flu gets John Seiler.

Seriously, I'm in the option B category. No guarantee they've got the right strain anyway.

Tony Ferous
09-21-2007, 05:19 AM
I wouldnt go new a flu shot either, but i had a trip to Thailand recently, the doc loaded me up on Hepatitus, typhoid and malaria shots, the shots were are probably loaded with lead or mercury, but i dont fancy getting one of those diseases!

Scott Kustes
09-21-2007, 07:21 AM
Take care of yourself and you won't get it. Eat a solid Paleo diet and exercise intensely. The worst I've had in the past 3 or 4 years is waking up not feeling on top of my game, but far from sick enough to hold me back from doing things. Might've missed a day or two of exercise here and there from being a bit worn out. You'll know that how you take care of yourself matters when whatever is "going around" miraculously never comes to you.

Mike ODonnell
09-21-2007, 08:47 AM
never got one....haven't had the flu in over 4 years....

Derek Simonds
09-21-2007, 10:02 AM
It's a total crap shoot for me. I travel so much via plane that sometimes I think it is worth the risk.

Scott Kustes
09-22-2007, 10:25 AM
Of that 3-4 years that I haven't been sick, I spent 1.5 of them doing 100% travel, the majority of it via plane. Eat a solid diet with plenty of vegetables and meat and you'll be A-OK. Let the unhealthy get the shots.

John Seiler
09-22-2007, 10:09 PM
Thanks for the replies, gents.

Scott, your experiences pretty closely mirror mine. I usually get about 2 days per winter that I feel like I'm battling something. I knock off work early, get some extra sleep, and I've been good to go a few hours later.

Jared Buffie
09-24-2007, 10:38 AM
From the Canadian version of The Daily Show:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWfCnjnShnM

It's funny cause it's true.

Mike ODonnell
09-24-2007, 02:16 PM
From the Canadian version of The Daily Show:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWfCnjnShnM

It's funny cause it's true.

"Remember when your Mother lost her mind because you played with Mercury and it never leaves your body?...."

Funny.....and so scary....

Mike ODonnell
09-25-2007, 03:36 PM
never got one....haven't had the flu in over 4 years....

I need to shut my trap....as after a week of not good sleep, running around, and over exerting myself with hockey....Yep....got what looks to be strep? Not sure...but if my tonsils are inflammed with little white dots on them and the roof of my mouth is covered in red patchy shit....well this can not be good....giving the whole ACV/Cayenne Pepper/Honey thing a try (http://www.earthclinic.com/CURES/sore_throat.html) ....fasting and sleeping for a whole day while drinking it with hot water...it's kicking my ass but I hope that means I'll revoer quicker....damn me and my bragging....now for a long walk in 80deg temp with 3 layers to sweat out the poisons....

Garrett Smith
09-25-2007, 06:03 PM
Mike,
If you need any help, shoot me a PM.

Strep is easy with the stuff I've got now.

Allen Yeh
09-26-2007, 03:32 AM
damn me and my bragging....

Isn't that always the case? I recall one of my friends was bragging that he'd never puked on a birthday before....boy did he learn differently that night.

Scott Kustes
09-26-2007, 08:08 AM
Guinness will cure what ails ya. If not, it'll at least make you feel better.

Nikki Young
10-06-2007, 11:52 PM
Garrett, i read an excert from the book you mentioned.
What about vaccines for when going overseas, such as for Malaria and yellow fever, etc?

Yael Grauer
10-07-2007, 09:59 AM
An interesting article on flu shots: http://www.lewrockwell.com/alston/alston33.html

More information:
http://www.homeopathy.com/flu.html

Garrett Smith
10-07-2007, 01:51 PM
I'm personally not concerned about much of that. I don't believe vaccines work anyway--or else people wouldn't have to "re-up" their doses (the immune system does NOT forget) and the people who are vaccinated wouldn't care if other people were vaccinated or not. This "herd immunity" BS does not make sense. If a vaccine works, it works. They don't work.

Why am I not concerned? Partially because I take good care of my health and do my best to maintain decent sanitary practices. Second, because I have a new tool against pathogens. This stuff is the real deal.

From the patent document (http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=7,135,195.PN.&OS=PN/7,135,195&RS=PN/7,135,195) on the new type of "supercharged silver solution" that I'm using in my practice:

Malaria. The method comprises the step of administering a silver composition, one to five times a day orally to the patient until there was a response. Eleven patients were treated with about ten ml (two teaspoons) each of a composition of the present invention three times per day. The patients showed a resolution of symptoms within five days.

Human Diseases Cured By and Pathogens Killed by the Inventive Silver Composition:

TABLE-US-00021 Disease Pathogen Effective Concentration Boils Staphylococcus aureus Killed @ 5 ppm Osteomyelitis Staphylococcus aureus Killed @ 5 ppm Bacillary Dysentery Shigella boydii Killed @ 2.5 ppm Burn Infections Pseudomonas aeruginosa Killed @ 5 ppm Dental Plaque Streptococcus mutans Killed @ 5 ppm Diarrhea (Bloody) Shigella boydii Killed @ 2.5 ppm Diarrhea Escherichia coli Killed @ 2.5 ppm Ear Infection Haemophilus influenzae Killed @ 1.25 ppm Ear Infection Streptococcus pneumonie Killed @ 2.5 ppm Enteric Fever Salmonella tyhimurium Killed @ 2.5 ppm Epiglottitis (In children) Haemophilus influenzae Killed @ 1.25 ppm Eye Infections Staphylococcus aureus Killed @ 5 ppm Corneal Ulcers-Keratitis Pseudomonas aeruginosa Killed @ 5 ppm Food Poisoning Salmonella arizona Killed @ 5 ppm Food Poisoning Salmonella tyhimurium Killed @ 2.5 ppm Food Poisoning Escherichia coli Killed @ 2.5 ppm Endocarditis Streptococcus faecalis Killed @ 2.5 ppm Endocarditis Streptococcus gordonii Killed @ 5 ppm Meningitis Haemophilus influenzae Killed @ 1.25 ppm Meningitis Enterobacter aerogenes Killed @ 2.5 ppm Meningitis Pseudomonas aeruginosa Killed @ 5 ppm Meningitis Streptococcus pneumonie Killed @ 2.5 ppm Nosocomial Infections Klebsiella pneumoniae Killed @ 2.5 ppm Nosocomial Infections Pseudomonas aeruginosa Killed @ 5 ppm Nosocomial Infections (From Streptococcus pyogenes Killed @ 1.25 ppm hospitals) Pneumonia Staphylococcus aureus Killed @ 5 ppm Pneumonia Haemophilus influenzae Killed @ 1.25 ppm Pneumonia Pseudomonas aeruginosa Killed @ 5 ppm Pneumonia Streptococcus pneumonie Killed @ 2.5 ppm Respiratory Tract Infections Streptococcus pyogenes Killed @ 1.25 ppm Respiratory Tract Infections E. coli Killed @ 2.5 ppm,, Respiratory Tract Infections Klebsiella pneumoniae Killed @ 2.5 ppm Scarlet Fever Streptococcus pyogenes Killed @ 1.25 ppm Septicemia Enterobacter aerpyogenes Killed @ 2.5 ppm Sinus Infections Haemophilus influenzae Killed @ 1.25 ppm Sinusitis Streptococcus pneumonie Killed @ 2.5 ppm Impetigo Staphylococcus aureus Killed @ 1.25 ppm Skin Infections Staphylococcus aureus Killed @ 5 ppm Skin Infections Streptococcus pyogenes Killed @ 1.25 ppm Strep Throat Streptococcus pyogenes Killed @ 1.25 ppm Suppurative Arthritis Haemophilus influenzae Killed @ 1.25 ppm Throat Infections Haemophilus influenzae Killed @ 1.25 ppm Tooth Decay Streptococcus mutans Killed @ 5 ppm Urethritis (Men) Trichomonas vaginalis Killed @ 10 ppm Urinary Tract Infections E. coli Killed @ 2.5 ppm Urinary Tract Infections Klebsiella pneumoniae Killed @ 2.5 ppm Urinary Tract Infections Pseudomonas aeruginosa Killed @ 5 ppm Urinary Tract Infections Streptococcus faecalis Killed @ 2.5 ppm Urinary Tract Infections Enterobacter aerpyogenes Killed @ 2.5 ppm Vaginitis (Women) Trichomonas vaginalis Killed @ 10 ppm Wound Infections Escherichia coli Killed @ 2.5 ppm Wound Infections Enterobacter aerpyogenes Killed @ 2.5 ppm Wound Infections Klebsiella pneumoniae Killed @ 2.5 ppm Wound Infections Pseudomonas aeruginosa Killed @ 5 ppm Wound Infections Streptococcus faecalis Killed @ 2.5 ppm Yeast Infections Candida albicans Killed @ 10 ppm

This solution is made by http://www.americanbiotechlabs.com/. This is the company that holds the above patents. Other companies are plagiarizing this info regularly. Want some? PM me.

Nikki Young
10-08-2007, 03:04 AM
Whats ppm stand for?

Allen Yeh
10-08-2007, 05:26 AM
I'm personally not concerned about much of that. I don't believe vaccines work anyway--or else people wouldn't have to "re-up" their doses (the immune system does NOT forget) and the people who are vaccinated wouldn't care if other people were vaccinated or not. This "herd immunity" BS does not make sense. If a vaccine works, it works. They don't work.


Tell that to some military doctors......I think I may be immune to just about everything nowadays....

On a serious note, a vaccination horror story:

A NCO I serve with was given the anthrax vaccine too many times apparently 2 is the limit, I think he received 4? Needless to say that screwed him up badly, now he has headaches that can become migraines for 5 years now.

They also don't inject people with that vaccine anymore.

Scott Kustes
10-08-2007, 07:36 AM
Whats ppm stand for?
Parts per million

John Vernon
10-09-2007, 07:20 AM
Isn't that always the case? I recall one of my friends was bragging that he'd never puked on a birthday before....boy did he learn differently that night.

that's funny...i had a friend who once made an almost identical statement (i think his drunken, third-person, response to our question of if he was oaky or not was "Todd don't puke"). man, the back seat of my other friends mitsubishi colt hatchback was never the same after Todd redecorated it.

oh yeah, flu shots...never got one. my company is offering them as part of a "Heatlh & Wellness Fair" we're having, I'm going to pass.

TomFurman
10-14-2007, 10:35 AM
My wife and I get a flu shot every year and a pneumonia shot every 5. I don't get the flu. Immunizations work. Apparently many of you did not have relatives who had polio. I'll take American medicine any day of the week. I live in SoFlo and the illegals come here with diseases we eliminated in the 50's. I really don't want to hear the nonsense about Vaccines causing Autism. I'm 50 and when I was young it was simply classified as 'retarded'. Now they redefine parameters and presto,...more autistic kids. Maybe we can blame their yuppy parents who have kids in their forties after sucking up a bucket of blow in their twenties.

Skipping immunizations (polio, etc) is like third world medicine. Yes, I will rattle bones over your child while he dies from a disease that Jonah Salk cured years ago.

Scott Kustes
10-15-2007, 06:26 AM
I don't get the flu and I don't get a flu shot. Oh, never had a pneumonia shot either and never had pneumonia. Polio and the flu...not really apples to apples there.

Mike ODonnell
10-15-2007, 09:31 AM
I once heard of a guy that was bitten by rattlesnakes over 12 times....little by little his body built up an immunity and sure enough, he can get bit now and doesnt even flinch.

Getting flu shots is telling your immune system "hey take the year off....you don't need to learn how to fight off anything....go play Halo 3...". Sure enough whoaaaaa flu strains that are now immune to flu shots and a large population of people who now can die if they catch the flu.

Unless you are 75 and no immune system....skip the shot, go get sick once in a while and help your body become stronger.

Jared Buffie
10-19-2007, 10:54 AM
Tom,

Are you sure you know what you're talking about?

Polio rates were on the decline long before the vaccine was introduced. As were rates for all other major diseases in North america:

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y62/Jbuff/poliorates.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y62/Jbuff/US-Deaths-1900-1965.gif

As for the Autism....

Watch the video and tell me mercury in Thimersol doesn't cause brain damage:

http://commons.ucalgary.ca/mercury/

As for the flu shot, there are 3 out of 100+ strains of the virus in there. Last study performed by the CDC places effectiveness at preventing the flu at 0-14%. You say you havn't got the flu because you have gotten the flu shot? Then explain why I haven't gotten it with NO flu shot.

Garrett Smith
10-22-2007, 01:27 PM
Excellent post, Jared.

Brad Hirakawa
11-06-2007, 04:16 PM
I finally had some free time to hop on the forum again. Loads of great advice here as usual.

I'll risk the troll ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll ) label and mention there are data suggesting some vaccinations had marked positive results. Alas, I was educated at a state school and skipped class often (cute girls) so I can’t recall exactly.

I work with nasty live viruses at the lab sometimes, so the risk-benefit decision was a little easier for me.

Regarding the flu shot… I hate needles and even if the flu shot worked 100% and was 100% safe, I would still opt for a week long flu over a 5 second injection.


Brad

Brad Hirakawa
11-06-2007, 08:02 PM
Okay.. okay... so the cute girls did not necessarily spend time with me, but it took a lot of my time staring at them. :)

edit below:

Jared,

I thumbed through an old text book this morning, pounded away at google.. had some caffeine...

I noticed your graphs represent death rates. Do you happen to have graphs that represent disease (incidence, prevalence, cases and such) rates? I understand how behaviorial changes, medical treatment (not including vaccines) of symptoms and such can decrease death rates over time, but I am curious as to how they actually affected disease rates. Also, it would be interesting to see graphs that monitor "health complication" rates and not only death rates. I suspect the anti-vaccination folks are interpreting the statistics differently than I am. Not saying my way is right, just different than theirs.

You know... I can manipulate just about any statistic, play with words a bit and end up with a convincing story in either direction for just about any arguement. And again.. just a state school kid, with an embarassing GPA.

Brad

Mike ODonnell
11-16-2007, 02:57 PM
on a related topic, I heard that Jenny McCarthy is now the spokes-person coming out against the CDC for kids with Autism and their vaccines. She blames the vaccines for ruining her kid...but apparently her kid is now getting all better with dietary changes (no gluten, dairy), supplements (bacteria/gut health) and other stuff. She was on Oprah so you know every women now knows about it.....good for her.

Jared Buffie
11-16-2007, 04:35 PM
Brad,

The point of the graphs is that vaccine advocates say things like "you need to get your shots because vaccines are miracle drugs that eradicated all diseases", when it's plain to see they have not. I do not have the incidence numbers, but that is tying into another point that hasn't been covered here:

Since when is it so bad to get the chicken pox or the measles? What used to happen is that as children were exposed to these benign diseases, their immune systems got a "workout" so to speak, and it was part of it's natural maturing process. Now there are over 70 immunizations given by age six - and look what we've traded measles, mups, and chicken pox for:

1 in 150 kids is autistic
1/2 of all 6 months old have eczema
1 in 15 kids have a severe peanut allergy
1/2 of kids have either asthma or hay fever

Every year they add a new shot, childhood cancer rises 3%. What do these conditions have in common? They are all immune system related. There was an interesting article in Newsweek last week about peanut allergies - basically they are blaming it on the fact that our kids are no longer able to handle germs because of the sterile environment we live in and the vaccines (of course their answer, though is a peanut vaccine!).

On top of that, most outbreaks occur in vaccinated populations.

Didn't really answer you question, but anyways....

Scott Clark
11-18-2007, 06:28 PM
Great stuff Jared.

Yael Grauer
11-18-2007, 08:00 PM
some interesting articles:

http://canadianpress.google.com/article/ALeqM5j_NRr3M8e3
http://www.lewrockwell.com/alston/alston33.htmlGiVbRD3B98xoTIGEJA

and this:

* * * PRESS RELEASE * * *


October 1, 2007

Ojai, CA -- On January 29, 2001, Jock Doubleday offered
$20,000 to the first U.S.-licensed medical doctor or pharmaceutical
company CEO to publicly drink a mixture of standard vaccine
additive ingredients:

http://www.mercola.com/2001/feb/10/vaccine_offer.htm

The offer had no takers.

On August 1, 2006, Doubleday increased the $20,000 offer to
$75,000:

http://www.vaclib.org/links/jockslinks.htm#press

The new $75,000 offer had no takers.

THEREFORE . . .

On June 1, 2007, the offer was increased to $80,000.
On July 1, 2007, the offer was increased to $85,000.
On August 1, 2007, the offer was increased to $90,000.
On September 1, 2007, the offer was increased to $95,000.
On October 1, 2007, the offer was increased to $100,000.

The offer will increase $5,000 per month, in perpetuity, until an
M.D. or pharmaceutical company CEO, or any of the 14 relevant
members of the ACIP (see below), agree to drink a body-weight
calibrated dose of the poisonous vaccine additives that M.D.s
routinely inject into children in the name of health.

As of November 1, 2007, the offer will increase to $105,000.
As of December 1, 2007, the offer will increase to $110,000.
As of January 1, 2008, the offer will increase to $115,000. . . . etc.

This offer has no expiration date unless superceded by a similar
offer of higher remuneration.

In health,

Jock Doubleday
Director
Natural Woman, Natural Man, Inc.
A California 501(c)3 Nonprofit Corporation
http://gentlebirth.org/nwnm.org/nwnm_org.html


----------

[Letter sent out August 1, 2006]

To Whom it May Concern:

As of August 1, 2006, I have increased the reward from $20,000 to
$75,000 for the public drinking of the vaccine additives mixture.

Please see the full text of the offer below ("PRESS RELEASE").

The original $20,000 Vaccine Offer was made January 29, 2001.
Since that time, 14 doctors, or persons claiming to be doctors, have
contacted me about publicly drinking the vaccine additives mixture.

None has followed through.

Regarding the new $75,000 Vaccine Offer, please note that I have
added to the list of potential candidates the 14 relevant members of
the CDC's 2006 Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices
(ACIP), as follows:

Jon S. Abramson, M.D. (Chair)
Ban Mishu Allos, M.D.
Carol Baker, M.D.
Janet R. Gilsdorf, M.D.
Harry Hull, M.D.
Susan Lett, M.D.
Tracy Lieu, M.D.
Dale L. Morse, M.D.
Julia Morita, M.D.
Kathleen Neuzil, M.D.
Patricia Stinchfield, N.P.
Ciro Valent Sumaya, M.D.
John J. Treanor, M.D.
Robin J. Womeodu, M.D.

In health,

Jock Doubleday
Director
Natural Woman, Natural Man, Inc.
A California 501(c)3 Nonprofit Corporation
http://gentlebirth.org/nwnm.org/nwnm_org.html

Jock Doubleday is the author of
"Spontaneous Creation:
101 Reasons Not to Have Your Baby in a Hospital, Vol 1:
A Book about Natural Childbirth and the Birth of Wisdom and
Power in Childbearing Women"

---------


* * * PRESS RELEASE * * *

August 1, 2006

$75,000 VACCINE OFFER

THE FOLLOWING OFFER is made to U.S.-licensed medical doctors
who routinely administer childhood vaccines and to pharmaceutical
company CEOs worldwide:

Jock Doubleday, director of the California 501(c)3 nonprofit
corporation Natural Woman, Natural Man, Inc., hereby offers
$75,000.00 to the first medical doctor or pharmaceutical company
CEO who publicly drinks a mixture of standard vaccine additives
ingredients in the same amount as a six-year-old child is recommended
to receive under the year-2005 guidelines of the U.S. Centers for
Disease Control and Prevention. (In the event that thimerosal has
recently been removed from a particular vaccine, the thimerosal-
containing version of that vaccine will be used.)

The mixture will not contain viruses or bacteria dead or alive, but
will contain standard vaccine additive ingredients in their usual
forms and proportions. The mixture will include, but will not be
limited to, the following ingredients: thimerosal (a mercury
derivative), ethylene glycol (antifreeze), phenol (a disinfectant
dye), benzethonium chloride (a disinfectant), formaldehyde (a
preservative and disinfectant), and aluminum.

The mixture will be prepared by Jock Doubleday, three medical
professionals that he names, and three medical professionals that
the participant names.

The mixture will be body weight calibrated.

Because the participant is either a professional caregiver who
routinely administers childhood vaccines, or a pharmaceutical
company CEO whose business is, in part, the sale of childhood
vaccines, it is understood by all parties that the participant
considers all vaccine additive ingredients to be safe and that the
participant considers any mixture containing these ingredients to be safe.

The participant agrees, and any and all agents and associates of the
participant agree, to indemnify and hold harmless in perpetuity any
and all persons, organizations, and/or entities associated with the
event for any harm caused, or alleged to be caused, directly or
indirectly, to the participant or indirectly to the participant's
heirs, relations, employers, employees, colleagues, associates, or
other persons, organizations, or entities claiming association with,
or representation of, the participant, by the participant's
participation in the event.

The event will be held within six months of the participant's written
agreement to the above and further elaborated terms.

To the list of potential candidates for the $75,000 Vaccine Offer, 14
members of the CDC's 2006 Advisory Committee on Immunization
Practices (ACIP) have been added, as follows:

Jon S. Abramson, M.D.
Ban Mishu Allos, M.D.
Carol Baker, M.D.
Janet R. Gilsdorf, M.D.
Harry Hull, M.D.
Susan Lett, M.D.
Tracy Lieu, M.D.
Dale L. Morse, M.D.
Julia Morita, M.D.
Kathleen Neuzil, M.D.
Patricia Stinchfield, N.P.
Ciro Valent Sumaya, M.D.
John J. Treanor, M.D.
Robin J. Womeodu, M.D.

In the event that any of the above ACIP members' terms expire and
they are replaced by new members, the new members will be added
automatically to the list of potential candidates for the Vaccine Offer.

This offer, dated August 1, 2006, has no expiration date unless
superceded by a similar offer of higher remuneration.

In health,

Jock Doubleday
Director
Natural Woman, Natural Man, Inc.
A California 501(c)3 Nonprofit Corporation
http://gentlebirth.org/nwnm.org/nwnm_org.html

Scott Hanson
11-19-2007, 03:04 PM
Brad,

The point of the graphs is that vaccine advocates say things like "you need to get your shots because vaccines are miracle drugs that eradicated all diseases", when it's plain to see they have not. I do not have the incidence numbers, but that is tying into another point that hasn't been covered here:

Since when is it so bad to get the chicken pox or the measles? What used to happen is that as children were exposed to these benign diseases, their immune systems got a "workout" so to speak, and it was part of it's natural maturing process. Now there are over 70 immunizations given by age six - and look what we've traded measles, mups, and chicken pox for:

1 in 150 kids is autistic
1/2 of all 6 months old have eczema
1 in 15 kids have a severe peanut allergy
1/2 of kids have either asthma or hay fever

Every year they add a new shot, childhood cancer rises 3%. What do these conditions have in common? They are all immune system related. There was an interesting article in Newsweek last week about peanut allergies - basically they are blaming it on the fact that our kids are no longer able to handle germs because of the sterile environment we live in and the vaccines (of course their answer, though is a peanut vaccine!).

On top of that, most outbreaks occur in vaccinated populations.

Didn't really answer you question, but anyways....


Measles is hardly a "benign" disease. According to both CDC and WHO, hundreds of thousands of children die due to measles each year (estimated at345,000 in 2005). I don't argue that correlation = causation, but statistically, measles deaths decreased by 65% globally from 1999 to 2005 during which time 360,000,000 children were vaccinated. To me, this is significantly more convincing than "I did/didn't get vaccinated and I did/didn't get the (insert disease here)". You can reference this data here: http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs286/en/ .

As far as the flu vaccine's efficacy, any data I've found imply a significantly greater protection than "0% to 14%". Here's one study showing that elderly people are 27% less likely to be hospitalized and 48% less likely to die if vaccinated: http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/357/14/1373.

I admit that I'm just beginning to research this topic, but thought I should present a somewhat opposing view. I don't believe that vaccines are completely safe and effective, however, I'm quite confident that they are effective, to varying degrees, in preventing many terrible diseases.

Brad Hirakawa
11-20-2007, 06:47 AM
Jared and others,

Thanks for your replies. I do see your point and understand what you are getting at.

I’ll post my closing thoughts then leave this alone. My epidemiology text book is ancient, so I admit to using google for some help…

Tracking death rates is not the best way to understand vaccine efficacy. Regarding the graphs you posted… death rates go down over time in part because doctors get better at treating symptoms and stopping the disease from killing people. Patients still suffer and retain the damage from the disease. I agree with the contention that traditional doctors aren't the best at preventative medicine, but in keeping people alive (emergency medicine), they do okay. If you graph disease incidence over time and look at long-term complications (polio for example: permanent nerve, muscle, spinal chord damage, meningitis, paralysis, muscle weakness...), you will note a marked plummet in a very pleasant direction shortly after vaccines are introduced. While your graphs show the death rate steadily decreasing regardless of vaccinations, overlaid data of incidence and disease related problems remain unchanged. Those graphs depict death rates going down, but they are only a small part of the data. I wonder if the folks who disseminate those graphs are purposefully omitting the rest of the data. You have to look at the whole package, data from many trials, across countries, oceans, populations, across long periods of time, etc.

Regarding the statistics you posted. Goldfish also cause cancer. 98% of people with cancer have seen a goldfish at sometime in their lives. I’m just messing with you of course, but that is what ran through my mind with those stats.

Vaccines are not 100% effective, not 100% safe, but pretty darn good in my book(s).

I probably didn’t answer your questions either Jared, but we both had a chance to express our views, so I think we were successful in that regard. :)

Yael… that was an interesting post. Were I debating vs. me, I would have posted the dollar figures being paid out to folks who have suffered from the potential side effects of some vaccines. But I’m not me in this case. Or am I? Why must you label my essence? (from the immortal words of Tenacious D).

Brad "steadies the boat" Hirakawa

Brad Hirakawa
11-20-2007, 06:52 AM
That square symbol was supposed to be a smiley face...