PDA

View Full Version : How to develop all the muscles on the upper body/upper torso


Heidi Anschultz
09-23-2007, 08:12 AM
...

Garrett Smith
09-23-2007, 01:58 PM
Body rows. Pullups. Overhead pressing.

Steven Low
09-23-2007, 02:42 PM
Body rows. Pullups. Overhead pressing.

Seconded.

http://www.dragondoor.com/articler/mode3/229/

One of the best exercises is the front lever pullup progressions.. Start with the tuck isometric and work up to the tuck front lever pullup.

Mike ODonnell
09-23-2007, 03:18 PM
http://www.lifelineusa.com/products.cfm?categoryid=17

The jungle gym is cheap and easy to use for the rows, planks, dips, pushups, etc. Plus it hooks to any door.

Jay Cohen
09-23-2007, 03:56 PM
Heidi;

I'm sure if you posted some pic's, we all could be way more specific and helpful in suggesting exercises that would be effective and help you achieve your goals.
Honest!

Jay

David Aguasca
09-23-2007, 04:19 PM
no votes for deadlifts? they do involve a significant amount of lower body muscle, but you can't deny the impact they have on the upper back musculature.

Sam Cannons
09-23-2007, 04:37 PM
What about heavy Cleans & Presses, I notices significant upperbody development after a lot more cleans.

Garrett Smith
09-24-2007, 06:43 AM
My goal was to keep the initial suggestions simple enough that a novice weight trainer could do them well without coaching.

Deadlifts and clean & press done incorrectly can easily hurt more than help. That's not to discount their value and importance, however.

Mike ODonnell
09-24-2007, 07:59 AM
no votes for deadlifts? they do involve a significant amount of lower body muscle, but you can't deny the impact they have on the upper back musculature.

I know she doesn't have any weights and was gearing the suggestions to stuff she can do anywhere or in the dorm room. Of course the #1 mass building exercise would be the DL....but for this specific purpose I go with rows with straps/pullups depending on strength.

David Aguasca
09-24-2007, 01:34 PM
I know she doesn't have any weights and was gearing the suggestions to stuff she can do anywhere or in the dorm room. Of course the #1 mass building exercise would be the DL....but for this specific purpose I go with rows with straps/pullups depending on strength.

absolutely, mike. if she's in a dorm, though, she's at a college, which may or may not have a gym with barbells, but deadlifting would be hard, though, without training plates to start with.

also, garrett, point taken about the form.

i add another vote to body rows/front lever progression

Patrick Donnelly
09-25-2007, 11:19 AM
You can do plenty of things with rubber bands too. You could probably get a few lengths of rubber tubing for pretty cheap...

Push-ups, thrusters, pull-ups (assisted or resisted)... Lots of stuff.


Edit: Forgot to mention, just don't become one of those girls who won't let you use the squat rack because she has to tie her band to it and use it for leg swings to get a good strength workout on her "lifting day," ie. the entire girl's Cross Country/Track team.

Same goes for tying them to the GHD. The Smith machine is fine.

Jordan Glasser
09-25-2007, 12:24 PM
Same goes for tying them to the GHD. The Smith machine is fine.

I should have known the smith machine was good for something!

Steven Low
09-25-2007, 09:06 PM
What kind of resistance exercise must be done to gain muscle in the middle of the back and on the sides?

Any type of rowing motion.

And how can I gain muscle over my rib cage on the front and sides? I can still feel the rib bones on my sides and front, but definitely not on my back!

Uh, the front is pecs.. which can be built by overhead pressing, horizontal pressing and dips.

As for the side.. there's no muscle there (well, there's muscles somewhat inbetween the ribs like serratus anterior). But nothing that can get big enough to cover the ribs. Otherwise you'd see bodybuilding guys with muscles there and they don't have those, haha.

Allen Yeh
09-26-2007, 03:47 AM
So, do you get the ruber bands/tubing free from work or something? Because my mom works in a lab, so I could relate to getting free tubing and stuff.

That is a source, it's not as durable as some of the stuff you can buy but it's free so who cares right? Just look out for a snapped band in the face.


I had another question for everyone, actually make that two. What kind of resistance exercise must be done to gain muscle in the middle of the back and on the sides?

Pullups, and rows.


And how can I gain muscle over my rib cage on the front and sides? I can still feel the rib bones on my sides and front, but definitely not on my back!


You should be able to feel them but I think I know what you mean. Exercises like Serratus Crunch, push-up plus.

Steve Liberati
09-26-2007, 04:26 AM
To add more muscle to your back simply lift heavy things off the ground. That is what I would. Get creative. You can deadlift dumbells, kettebells, a punching bag, a sandbag, a BAR, oil cans filled with rocks, a car...just whatever. As your back gets stronger, more muscle and definition (actually this is more diet related) are sure to follow. I'd try to stick to low rep compound movements.

Allen Yeh
09-26-2007, 11:23 AM
Right. I'd love to row and do pull-ups, but I don't have a rowing machine and I'm not in a rowing team. And as for the pull-ups, I don't have anything to pull mylsef up to. I could probably go to a gym and find a rowing maching and a pull-up bar though. Even then, that's time out of my hands spent walking to the gym (not really all that far), finding the right machine or waiting for someone else to get off it, and I don't particularly like the gym setting.

Do you guys have any ideas on "practical" things I can use to do pull-ups and rows with without lots of traffic going by (because I appreciate seclusion when exercising).

And by the way, what are low rep compound movements?

I meant rows like this:
http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/BackGeneral/WTSupineRow.html

or this:

http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/BackGeneral/DBLyingRow.html

Chris Forbis
09-26-2007, 01:47 PM
Heidi-

Buy a Door Gym. It is a pullup bar that fits on your door (and is removable). You can hang some rings from it for dips or body rows.

http://www.amazon.com/Creative-Fitness-DG-Door-Chin-Up/dp/B00029A7C0/ref=sr_1_1/104-7133051-5394360?ie=UTF8&s=sporting-goods&qid=1190839626&sr=1-1

Patrick Donnelly
09-26-2007, 02:59 PM
Inner tubing, surgical tubing, anything rubbery and in a cord.

Trees are nature's pull-up bar. Don't be worried about exercising outside... Just by trying you're already ahead of half of America.

Steven Low
10-03-2007, 12:50 PM
Erm, if you're asking for an opinion.

I like looking at the a woman's physical form. To me you look more right than guys do. Those hips are good.. mmm..

Uhhh, anyway, our hips are naturally "slimmer" because your bodies are built for giving birth (no joke :)). Males tend to be "protectors" or aggressors for mates and therefore generally have a bigger body frame to carry more mass. More or less that's pretty much most of the animal kingdom species on the planet.

David Aguasca
10-03-2007, 08:21 PM
i'm going to have to disagree with you on that, heidi, a woman's body shape looks VERY right to me.

i think focusing on performance is the best way to go about it: with a good diet and a good combination of metcon and strength work, you'll be lean and muscular. every person will have a different shape, but lean and muscular will always look good.

Steven Low
10-04-2007, 06:25 PM
Well, women generally have a higher body fat percentage so being extremely lean isn't necessarily a good thing (unless you like to lose your menstrual cycle). Plus, women have lower testosterone levels so muscle growth is slower.

Eh, I personally like at least an athletic look on a woman.. not bulging muscles or anything but CF women/fitness models tend to have something near my ideal.

Steven Low
10-05-2007, 06:31 PM
lol, you're making gross exaggerations. And what differences do exist have to do with childbirthing and difference in hormones.

Logical, craving and rules.. are all arbitrary. I know a lot of guys who are addicted to different stuff or horribly illogical and who don't abide by rules. Those aren't traits that *only* women possess, haha.

Feminine form is definitely more perfect than a mans.

Daniel Myers
10-05-2007, 07:03 PM
This thread is weird.

That's all.

Kalen Meine
10-05-2007, 10:11 PM
I second this thread being a bit peculiar. Heidi, you seem to be hung up on the fact that men and woman are physically distinct for innate, genetic reasons. If this isn't something you haven't yet come to terms with, I'm afraid there's not much anyone around here can do to help you out. In other news, men are often taller and grow beards more easily. Steven might not be quite on the money with the warrior split, given studies of real forager groups, but that's splitting hairs. Men tend to find prototypical female forms attractive- there's hardly anything wrong about it. Most of the morphological differences really boil down to babymaking machinery- increased bodyfat fraction to sustain estrogen levels, lactation, and the like, differing hip structure, and most species of animal exhibit sexual dimorphism- though the direction (male larger vs. female larger) is pretty much a grab bag, and is actually much, much smaller in human beings than any other primate- the human sexes are more similar than those of just about any other animal. Women also happen to have physical primacy in a whole slew of other physical characteristics- thermal tolerance, for example. It's not something to get worked up about- it dictates next to nothing about capabilities (even in athletics, where women's track and field times keep creeping up on men's) and it does describe a sustainable situation encompassing six billion people.

And on the biological front, the lack of "logic" should better be categorized as a neurological emphasis on forming social networks attuned to emotional conditions, just as crucial (if not more) of a survival skill relative to the increased spatial processing speed of male brains- an affect which appears to have been overstated.

As for the perfect bodies...Men have, with the tricky mix of training and genetics of course considered, have the possibility to create the perfect male body- one that, from the aesthetic perspective (and this does seem to be your focus- you might be catching that this board is a bit more oriented towards sports performance and health- not unrelated, of course, but different) indicates health and fertility to potential mates. Woman can create perfect women's bodies- one that indicate health and fertility to potential male mates, or female companions, depending on how homosexuality ends up fitting into the whole map of evolutionary psychology. Neither one is closer to some Platonic idea of perfection than the other- they are separate and complementary.

And to address the whole mess, do your pushups and pullups on a handy tree or playground, climb some rocks, pick up heavy things off the floor, and I promise you will look just fine. You'll also make more rapid progress than you will in trying to spot-treat a variety of spots I suspect look just fine and are suffering more from confirmation bias than a real physical deficiency.

Derek Simonds
10-06-2007, 03:40 AM
Kalen, all I have to say is wow. What a great post. I just bookmarked it so I can refer people to it.

Mark Gebhard
10-07-2007, 11:34 AM
Heidi,
Have you looked into evolutionary psychology? I haven't done a lot of reading in it, but I know there are tons of books with different takes on this stuff. One I'm reading right now is The Red Queen by Matt Ridley. It's pretty fascinating stuff that tries to explain from an evolutionary perspective why men and women think and behave the way they do. Obviously gender roles are significantly influenced by society but often there are underlying biological reasons shaping them. It helps to understand that by breaking out of these roles, you're fighting your genes, and while that might be a liberating or self-actualizing goal, it's going to be hard.

Troy Archie
10-07-2007, 07:57 PM
I can tell you right now that most, if not all the guys on here will tell you males are the butt ugly ones and that the female body is a work of art that we go to war, workout, enroll in pointless classes, lose sleep, whine about in drunken stoopers, create empires, and murder for.

chris hill
10-08-2007, 03:23 AM
Why must women become ugly so that babies can be born? This must be one of the most rediculous questions i have ever read.


Furthermore, what good is it being female if one doesn't fit in the "categorized roles" of being dependent, submissive, and only looking out for the good of others? What if you're driven, not submissive, and independent? seriously you need to understand there are a LOAD of dependant, driven women out there who are in control of every aspect of their lives.......also there are numerous couples and partnership where the female is the driven career orientated partner and the male is the home maker. It seems that you have issues with antiquated and incorrect stereotypes.


Every single day, while at university, I encounter girls who look down on each other. I think the key point here is University......these girls will grow up and mature.

Most girls/women are butt ugly.?!?!?!

Steven Low
10-08-2007, 10:35 AM
Most of those "94%" of girls who hate their body probably do so illogically just looking at society's standards especially if they're on a college campus.

And if you let yourself go (e.g. get fat) that's just unattractive to everyone concerned for both sexes. Heck, I bet most of obese America hates their bodies... but they're too lazy to do anything to change it.

If you work out and are disiciplined you will almost 100% have a slim low-fat body.. somewhat muscular if you want. You may not have the shape or "look" you want because of genetics, but that's what all of us have to deal with. There's a bunch of physical deficiencies in my body like missing a lower muscle band for one of my pecs, but that's just life and it's unfair.

As for emotions and stuff.. not gonna touch that with a 10 foot pole. :)

BTW are you a college student?

John Alston
10-08-2007, 01:23 PM
Sounds like someone needs some serious squat therapy.

Troy Archie
10-10-2007, 09:58 AM
However, guys are lean and girls are not. It's impossible to have a 'hard' body being a female. Our hormones prevent us from having lean muscle and lower body fats.


Genetics, genetics, genetics. Not all men are created equal. I'll never be lean and have a 'hard' body no matter how low my body fat or how strong I am. Oh and I also had moobs (man boobs/bitch tits) at one time and had to get surgery for it. Now there's unfair.
We're constantly bombarrded with how men and women are suppose to look via TV, magazines and other forms of media but those people are the EXTREME minority and are pretty much non-existent. I think my entire life I've seen like maybe 6 guys and 2 women with six-packs...

John Alston
10-10-2007, 10:03 AM
John, do you tell everyone to do squat therapy, or are you just recommending this for me?

Squat therapy = the only therapy you need (for the mind).

1. Eff all the whiny sophomoric girls complaining about what society says about this and that, social construction of reality, media expectations, and whatever post-modern cultural relativist crap people are into in the moment, and get in the squat rack.
2. Put on some weight. Work up to Heavy (heavy for you).
3. Squat. Hard.
4. Repeat.

See how problems of the world go away and the world gets fuzzy at the edges of your periphreal vision on hard reps.

Ultimate result: prove all those whiners wrong by building an awesome body that you love even more for the work you put into it, because nothing is rewarding without hard work.

John Alston
10-10-2007, 10:06 AM
Genetics, genetics, genetics. Not all men are created equal. I'll never be lean and have a 'hard' body no matter how low my body fat or how strong I am. Oh and I also had moobs (man boobs/bitch tits) at one time and had to get surgery for it. Now there's unfair.
We're constantly bombarrded with how men and women are suppose to look via TV, magazines and other forms of media but those people are the EXTREME minority and are pretty much non-existent. I think my entire life I've seen like maybe 6 guys and 2 women with six-packs...

Try some squat therapy, too, man.

Troy Archie
10-10-2007, 12:45 PM
Try some squat therapy, too, man.

In progress...

Steven Low
10-10-2007, 01:52 PM
Heidi.. a bit off topic but you seem like an interesting person to talk with.. at least from a fitness standpoint. haha

Eva Claire Synkowski
10-10-2007, 04:42 PM
heidi - i think it's important to (re)state - you're going to need to move some weight... which will likely mean going to the gym, regardless of the "scene" there, once you feel comfortable with the movements (especially considering one is relatively convenient at your university!). i don't think the rubber tubing on the door and/or heavy backpack routines will get the musculature you want (again, once the movements with that resistance is not challenging).

it may be worth it to point out that many women don't have the physique you want... b/c they don't want that physique. a perfect example is many women in the gym using the 5 or 10 lb dumbbells.... forever.

i have a pretty broad back... not sure if it's muscular enough for your goals... but in my pre-xf days, rows, pullups, shrugs, dominated my "upper body" days, and deadlifts a main part of "lower body" days.... with heavy (for me) progressive loading and lower rep schemes (5-8). obviously this wasn't an overnight process.

David Aguasca
10-12-2007, 03:52 PM
oh...well...as far as how girls look when they sit down...a lot of girls our age tend to wear pants that are WAY too small on them.

Steven Low
10-13-2007, 10:01 AM
Little too defined for my tastes. Probably has lost most of her boobage by losing fat (e.g she might have implants too can't really tell). To tell you the truth, I like something a little less defined (a bit more BF%) like CF girls or something similar to Jamie Eason if you want to go google image her now. :P

Core training without leg and upper body training is pretty dumb. There's no real point because the large compounds are how you're going to stimulate the GH and testosterone effect you're looking for to build muscle. Squat, DL, oly lift, row, pullup, dip, bench and overhead press and you'll look pretty good if you have a good diet.

Also, at low enough percentage of body fat the menstrual cycle shuts down. Not that that's a good or bad thing depending on your preference. It happens to many elite womens athletes.

Kalen Meine
10-13-2007, 10:36 PM
Umm, yikes. That's leaner than I have seen on any male, much less female, engaged in legitimate athletic endeavors- and sorry, competitive body building is a beauty contest, not a sport. I certainly do not in the least subscribe to the "muscles look bad on women" fallacy- I think the six packs on the CF central women are quite fetching. But honestly- that looks like roids and unhealthy caloric restriction, and she is probably depressed, sleepless, and slow, and I fail to see the feminine bits. Put about 4% more body fat on that so she actually has a waist to hip ratio and isn't trying to eat the brains and livers of her coworkers for the fats, and we might be in business.

Steven Low
10-14-2007, 03:10 PM
I think it depends on the person. If the body thinks it cannot support itself to bear a child then it won't menstruate. I don't know all the factors behind that though but there are elite athletes that lose their cycle even though they aren't uberly caloric restricted so that's what I'd contest that to a point.

Too low body fat isn't healthy. Women have to have more to support themselves that's just a fact between the two sexes. If a guy was constantly at like 3-4% BF it's just really unhealthy because he'd probably be constantly be dehydrated and muscularly probably be glycogen depleted (from lack of cals) as well as whatever other health problems like in the kidneys.

Whatever though. A guy having that much definition is generally pretty scary. I don't even really want to comment on a women like that. I don't understand why women want to drop BF percentage that low either. I'd be willing to bet 99% of guys hate that. Heck, a lot of guys don't like women that have as much muscle as CF ladies. Not that conforming to "attractive" norms in society (especially the anorexic look) is good but yeah.

John Alston
10-15-2007, 08:15 AM
How difficult would it be to look like this?

I don't think that looks feminine, attractive, or healthy.

It would take a lot of work to get to that. A lot. It's muscle and super low fat.

Honestly, if you're looking for training for appearance information, you should hunt around T-Nation.

Greg Everett
10-18-2007, 02:38 PM
OK, I've tried to avoid getting involved in this thread, but recent conversations about this topic have kept me thinking about it.

Heidi -

Whether or not that woman looks feminine is a very subjective matter. Personally, no amount of alcohol would make that work for me. That said, what you like is your call and I won't try to change your mind.

However - I WILL try to convince you that 1) that is not healthy, 2) that is not natural, and 3) you will never achieve that.

As has been said, the number one determinant of how muscular and lean an individual can be is genetics. There's no way around it. The woman pictured possesses a genetic predisposition to muscularity and leanness - probably unsually high levels of testosterone primarily.

Also, it's very unlikely she actually maintains that level of leanness year-round. Just like competitive bodybuilders, physique models train/diet/prepare specifically for events/photo shoots. I'd be willing to bet that photo was taken near the culmination of one of these prep cycles.

In addition to the above, it wouldn't surprise me a bit if said woman is using exogenous testosterone, gH and/or other anabolics, diuretics, etc. Drug use is way more prevalent than people seem to think or want to believe.

Finally, I'd also bet those are implants. Check out the nicely defined edge around the top of the left side.

Bottom line, make goals for yourself, but make them reasonable or you're going to drive yourself crazy never achieving them.

Kevin Perry
10-18-2007, 10:45 PM
OK, I've tried to avoid getting involved in this thread, but recent conversations about this topic have kept me thinking about it.

Heidi -

Whether or not that woman looks feminine is a very subjective matter. Personally, no amount of alcohol would make that work for me. That said, what you like is your call and I won't try to change your mind.

However - I WILL try to convince you that 1) that is not healthy, 2) that is not natural, and 3) you will never achieve that.

As has been said, the number one determinant of how muscular and lean an individual can be is genetics. There's no way around it. The woman pictured possesses a genetic predisposition to muscularity and leanness - probably unsually high levels of testosterone primarily.

Also, it's very unlikely she actually maintains that level of leanness year-round. Just like competitive bodybuilders, physique models train/diet/prepare specifically for events/photo shoots. I'd be willing to bet that photo was taken near the culmination of one of these prep cycles.

In addition to the above, it wouldn't surprise me a bit if said woman is using exogenous testosterone, gH and/or other anabolics, diuretics, etc. Drug use is way more prevalent than people seem to think or want to believe.

Finally, I'd also bet those are implants. Check out the nicely defined edge around the top of the left side.

Bottom line, make goals for yourself, but make them reasonable or you're going to drive yourself crazy never achieving them.


+1

...just train naturally and eat well. Focus on weaknesses and work to improve areas your strong in and in the long run everything will work out.

...sorry, but that image just plain hinders my sight.

Yael Grauer
10-19-2007, 06:42 AM
This chick, on the other hand....http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/fe/Atalanta.jpg

John Alston
10-19-2007, 10:36 AM
And I thought this was a family forum.

Steven Low
10-26-2007, 04:48 PM
Speaking of "scary" how about one of the recent t-nation pictures:

http://www.t-nation.com/forum_images/430fd-noex.jpg

Although she is sucking in her stomach.. yeah, that might be more scary than the above picture although the above has more total definition.

lol, couldn't resist. John.. definitely not a family forum. ;)

David Aguasca
10-27-2007, 12:05 PM
as for lower body mass (and strength), john's advice is the best: squat therapy.

squat heavy, squat often (2-3 times a week). and of course, eat plenty of good food...

deadlifts also work...just be careful, Rippetoe says it's easy to encounter CNS burnout on DLs.

Steven Low
10-27-2007, 03:00 PM
http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Quadriceps/BBFullSquat.html

Go to your school gym and do them.

Kalen Meine
10-27-2007, 06:45 PM
Not to newbie thump, but did we just get a question on how to perform squats? ;-)

Your two best resources:

Mark Rippetoe's Starting Strength: www.startingstrength.com

Dan John's The Book: http://danjohn.org/bp.pdf

Read them. Do not skip, shirk, decide you are more advanced than you are, get impatient.... and yes, a barbell will be required equipment.

I also offer these by way of encouraging a paradigm shift. Both of these guys are strength coaches, amongst other things. They are not personal trainers or bodybuilders. They are not shapers, toners, or the rest. Their job has been to take thousands of beginners- college, high school, themselves- and make them bigger, faster, and much much stronger for fields- sports like football, Olympic weightlifting, powerlifting, track, the throwing events, etc, where difference in performance, not appearance, produce real, quantifiable distinctions in your success. Now, I know that that isn't your game- and that's alright- I'd say the great majority of the folks around this and similar sites list looking good naked as an important factor. I'd just advise that, for most people, that aim is much more easily achieved, with much greater satisfaction along the way, and with much greater increases in your real-world abilities (and the resulting confidence) by setting long-term strength (not appearance) goals and pursuing bigger weights and faster times . You could worry about your legs, which amongst most concerned people, in my experience, are just fine, or you could pursue a big squat and deadlift, and start learning the O lifts, and a) scare the other people in the gym, which is fun b)leap on the roof of your car for fun, which is immensely gratifying and scares you friends, c) oh, yeah, your legs are in vastly superior shape to when you trained individual body parts, chased the pump, or checked the mirror after you worked out, and d) you won't care as much- looking good will be just one part of an overall gratifying physical experience built more around testing your mettle than navel-gazing.

Frank Needham
10-27-2007, 07:52 PM
Go to:
http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/table_of_contents_thread.htm
Stephen Low once posted this link in a reply to me on another site and I think it is still probably the best source of info for beginning lifters that I've seen on the net. I believe the author, Madcow, is actually a well known strength coach. You'll find every question answered there a beginner could have, and then some. It will require some time to absorb but it is well worth the effort. There have many great suggestions posted in this thread, such as the one above to check out Rippetoe and Dan John.

Patrick Donnelly
10-27-2007, 08:02 PM
I hadn't looked at this thread in a while, then I saw it grew to a monster size; had to take a look. Firstly...

Re: Susanna Kellner photo
Uhhhhh... No. Not feminine, not attractive.
Why would you want to look like that? You talk about girls being insecure about themselves, and then you want to look like that? It'd be terrible to go through the hell to do it. Then afterwards, you'd just get hit on all the time by really creepy, shallow, bicep-curling men, and why would you want that?

I saw the following (paraphrased) on a message board a few months ago... I found it hilarious. (Though, not family-friendly. Scroll-over warning.)


Guy1: Does anyone know a way to make your penis larger? I want to impress my girlfriend.
Guy2: You want a bigger cock so you can impress girls who like big cocks? Have you noticed that the only girls who like big cocks are the girls who like big cocks?


Why must women become ugly so that babies can be born?

http://media.crossfit.com/cf-video/CrossFit_MashupAnnieMU-CJ.mov
Watch until the end.

Chris Forbis
10-27-2007, 08:29 PM
as for lower body mass (and strength), john's advice is the best: squat therapy.

squat heavy, squat often (2-3 times a week). and of course, eat plenty of good food...

deadlifts also work...just be careful, Rippetoe says it's easy to encounter CNS burnout on DLs.

Word.

Squat heavy 2-3 times a weak. Deadlift heavy once a week. Listen to Rippetoe and keep it to one heavy set of five per week (deadlifting). Eat a shitload of good, clean food. I was almost bursting the seams of my dress pants with that program...

Yael Grauer
10-28-2007, 10:27 AM
Why would you want to look like that? You talk about girls being insecure about themselves, and then you want to look like that? It'd be terrible to go through the hell to do it. Then afterwards, you'd just get hit on all the time by really creepy, shallow, bicep-curling men, and why would you want that?


I wanna look like Hilary Swank in Million Dollar Baby. I can't explain it. Unfortunately, the only thing I can find on her training regimen is 2.5 hours of boxing and 1.5 hours of weightlifting six days a week, flaxseed oil and egg white shakes, 210 g of protein a day, 9 hours of sleep a night, for 90 days. 14 hours a day, think I can pull it off? ;)

Jason Lopez-Ota
11-04-2007, 07:17 PM
The thing is, I think one of the main reasons women are so b*tchy to each other is because they are insecure about their bodies. That and hormones. Why is it that the majority of men do not have it this miserable? Mens bodies do not change much during their life (unless they decide to massively gorge on junk their whole life).

Why must estrogen require body fat to function? Why must women become ugly so that babies can be born?

I think physical appearance impacts our relationships, lives, and perspectives and outtakes on life way more than is paid to attention to at all. Women in western society today repel because they are insecure, making them cling to men and relationships for "happiness," and it seems as if naturally women look to men for comfort and solace. But why should it be this way?

Furthermore, what good is it being female if one doesn't fit in the "categorized roles" of being dependent, submissive, and only looking out for the good of others? What if you're driven, not submissive, and independent? Then you don't fit into the nice little category that defines what being a woman is. If you don't look the part, people won't give you credit for the role regardless of whether you actually have a role.

And this must be confusing and abstract if you're a guy reading this.

But I just don't see the purpose to life if you can't eventually get what you want or work for. It shouldn't be this hard to maintain a nice body that puts of an image of "I'm cool, look at me/hire me/date me/etc." Why should it be so whacked for women to be "cool?" They have to be "reserved, patient, slow, unadventurous, 'stable', and motherly."

Unfortunately, many women have issues with themselves and how they look (94% of women hate their bodies..statistic from a news article..I know, it's not all that reliable but I wouldn't disagree with it), and that's over 50% of the population. Why shouldn't it be more attainable for women to easily control how they look so that they don't shy away from any job, activity, accomplishment entailing them to have physical involvement in it and which they are incapable of doing/too self-conscious to try it out.

The other day I saw a middle-aged woman who had a huge brimmed hat on and a gardening outfit on, and she looked as if she did not belong in this 'costume' but that she was wearing it to fit in/ to fill the role to be accepted/admired.

Every single day, while at university, I encounter girls who look down on each other (because they are insecure of their bodies..94% remember) and then see a guy with a rock hard body, flat stomach, narrow hips, and big wide shoulders, and coo. There's nothing wrong with admiring a guy's physique, but why shouldn't a girl's physique be as admirable? Why must men automatically have one foot in the door because they look hot and women have one foot out of the door because they don't?

I don't have anything against gay guys for not liking a woman's body, because it just isn't attractive in most cases (eating disorders and dieting aside). Most girls/women are butt ugly.

Obviously, I have some degree of 'hung-up-ness' on being a girl, but I speak for most (94% remember) of women who cannot find solace in their own appearances and will likely look to a guy with a nice body for comfort and stability (something I/we don't have).
long post :o

I'm a little late on this but my ex gf went skydiving with me. That was adventurous. I also have no problem understanding what you wrote because it's abstract. Your views are a little extreme. The female physique is VERY admirable. I don't find broad man shoulders admirable. Most women are NOT butt-ugly. Who says women are the only ones that cannot find solice in their appearances also. There's fat and ugly men too. I also read in an article that even gay men like breasts.

Jason Lopez-Ota
11-04-2007, 07:20 PM
No, but I think it would be really interesting to read. I have so many questions of why things are the way they are. In a stand-offish perspective, when one is not caught up in one's own hormones and can view the game of life, I don't understand why nature is the way it is. The end result to every single scenario is due to a superior drive to increase the population. In mentally incapable organisms, ants for example, they reproduce just to reproduce and serve no higher purpose than that. Their point in life is to exist and further their existence. This just seems so dumb. Why should an ant exist if it has no power in its own destiny? It's just there to affect everything else but itself. It's life was predetermined before it was created.

It seems as if that is all we are here for. To reproduce. Not to understand why we are here or to affect other things so that we are here to understand how we help things, but we're here to affect the world. I don't like not being able to choose how I affect the world, or that my main genetic objective is to reproduce. :(

You're right that breaking out of one's predetermined mold is hard, if not impossible, but we are human. We are different from all the other stupid animals, right?

Women do not become ugly when they are pregnant. It's your choice in whether or not you will get pregnant and have a child. Also ants have their purpose just like everything else in this world.

Jason Lopez-Ota
11-04-2007, 07:28 PM
Good luck with your goal.

Jason Lopez-Ota
11-04-2007, 07:30 PM
Wow. Too much attention.

Sorry to be such a downer on the female sex; I'm really not a self-loather. Humor and confidence in myself keeps me from being one.

John, do you tell everyone to do squat therapy, or are you just recommending this for me?

David, :rolleyes:

Steven, I'm a freshman majoring in civil engineering. You're partly right in that society wants women to have no curves/shape whatsoever. Society must have a lot of self-loathing role-models for women (ie grown women in power who can't at least make themselves appear happy with their natural bodies to make the rest of the western world women feel confident in the way they were born. Just last night, I performed in a concert and wore something that flattered my curves, and was honestly grateful I looked so good with curves and all the other girls seemed to instantly feel better about themselves when I put off a vibe that I was happy with my body.

Troy, it's nice of you to promote the female figure. However, guys are lean and girls are not. It's impossible to have a 'hard' body being a female. Our hormones prevent us from having lean muscle and lower body fats.

Chris, you're probably right that the girls at my university will grow up and mature. Most of them anyway. You can only be self-loathing for so long before you just learn to accept the way you are. I feel this is the case for women. I never wanted to be 'soft' and dependent on someone else for protection. But that is the way my body has developed.

Mark, I'll find some time this fall break to read some evolutionary psychology literature. Is there a specific area of evol. psych. that focuses on body image?

Look at Gina Carano. She's a pro-mma fighter that can beat up most men. My own Mom is pretty well muscled. Her Dad was a pro-wrestler.

Mike ODonnell
11-05-2007, 07:59 AM
Happiness is not related to self image unless we make it so. Forget what the TV and media try and promote as healthy, it is not. It's lies, photoshopping images and picture, unrealistic expectations, not healthy, etc. Be happy with where you are right now and take joy in finding a lifestyle to promote your health (and your body will be shaped accordingly). The ability to be happy right now is inside us all....if we choose it. If a cancer patient can look out the window and see joy in everyday...then how little does what one look like in a mirror really matter. Get the right perspective and don't care about others expectations...happiness is everywhere.

This thread is going down a dangerous path of negative self image without finding the solution...and the solution comes from within.

Just my $0.02.

Jason Lopez-Ota
11-05-2007, 02:48 PM
Happiness is not related to self image unless we make it so. Forget what the TV and media try and promote as healthy, it is not. It's lies, photoshopping images and picture, unrealistic expectations, not healthy, etc. Be happy with where you are right now and take joy in finding a lifestyle to promote your health (and your body will be shaped accordingly). The ability to be happy right now is inside us all....if we choose it. If a cancer patient can look out the window and see joy in everyday...then how little does what one look like in a mirror really matter. Get the right perspective and don't care about others expectations...happiness is everywhere.

This thread is going down a dangerous path of negative self image without finding the solution...and the solution comes from within.

Just my $0.02.

True and even if you meet your goals, will you TRULY be happy then? Or will you find another way to bring yourself down. Who says you do not have the perfect body right now. You probably look great.

Greg Everett
11-05-2007, 03:11 PM
Heidi -

I don't want to close the thread, or stop people from responding to something that's obviously holding their interest, but I think you're going to continue to be disappointed by the responses you receive here. Generally this audience is not particularly concerned with chasing aesthetics as the first priority, particularly at the clear expense of health and performance. You will likely find advice and support more in line with your goals on a bodybuilding forum.

John Alston
11-06-2007, 07:02 AM
I'll second Greg .
I'll repeat - if your goals are more appearance based, then try t-nation. They have a woman's section. They do a lot of stuff that's about weights and appearance, and even a little performance, and lots in between. But they're self declared all about "looking good nekkid."
"Society wants this..." insercurity, bitchiness, what some book says we're being told, the sophomoric obsessions of appearance self-obession... evidence for the need for squat therapy.
Go find a barbell, get under it, and lift it. Then make it heavier. The barbell doesn't care about any of that bullshit you might be thinking about, about what you think society makes you think, about how you can be empowered or subvert the dominant paradigm, or any other bullshit notion.
One bar, one person. Lift.

If you've never read this... http://www.naturalstrength.com/weightroom/detail.asp?ArticleID=168

Troy Archie
11-06-2007, 10:47 AM
Wow John, as I read your post I was reminded of Rollins and some of this great quotes in regards to strength and iron. Thanks for the article.

Ben Reynolds
07-14-2009, 04:35 PM
With bodyweight, ring dips and L-sit pullups work the entire upper body and core like no other. Front levers are also good. For full body conditioning, do burpees for 5 minutes.

With weight, clean and press covers every base.