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Mike Shaw
10-02-2007, 04:49 PM
Hi all,

Just so you know this is a crosspost that I also posted from Crossfit in search of some answers. I hope any response give me some answers and helps any others in the same position..... Many Thanks

I have been on a search for some time and whilst I have been through the archives I dont seem to be able to find the answer's needed.

Im wanting to build proper muscle whilst adding strength to MMA / BJJ type workouts, I have also just returned to doing early morning SS / Mass Gain Style workouts. In the past I have repeatedly overtrained / not eaten a proper diet and have paid the price, this was a result of either a particularly stressful ME, CF or personal situation resulting in a crash.

My average week consists of the following:

AM PM
M SS BJJ
T SS MMA
W REST REST
T SS "WOD / GIRLS"
F RINGS REST
S LIGHT SS REST
S REST REST

Average day would consist of the SS workout's AM for approx 1hr then MMA training for approx 2 hours PM , Thursday evening is for high intense CF.
Whilst my job is not extremly physical the average output is more than someone at a computer all day........ Resting usually Wed, Sat night and Sun and given the above schedule I'm fearful of overtraining and am starting to feel it.

I have searched through a lot of workout / nutrition logs but cant seem to find a daily breakdown of food and the approx cal of my consumption relative to my output.....

AVERAGE DAILY MEAL CONSISTS OF FOLLOWING:

Pre AM W/O
2 EGGS, APPLE, ALMONDS
POST AM W/O
SHAKE w 2 x SCOOPS WHEY, 2 x BANANA'S, FLAXSEED OIL, APPLE JUICE
11 AM SNACK
100g DELI ROAST BEEF / TURKEY, CUP ORANGE JUICE, 6 MACADAMIA'S
LUNCH
HALF CHICKEN, 2 CUPS STEAMED BROC, CUP ORANGE JUICE, MACADAMIA'S
5PM SNACK
100g DELI ROAST BEEF / TURKEY, CUP ORANGE JUICE, 6 MACADAMIA'S
DINNER
400g STEAK, SALAD, BROC, CHEESE
PRE BED
SHAKE w 2 x SCOOPS WHEY, FLAXSEED, APPLE JUICE, (6-10) FISH OIL TABS

Given the above I dont feel "Great" and have noticed that if I bump up the AM intensity it wrecks me by weeks end. MMA & BJJ & CF are all at ME so its all pretty taxing on my body.

Sorry for the indepth layout I just havent seen a well laid out daily activity plan plus an acurate meal intake plan in the same thread simlar to mine. (If you record one pleeeeeeease let me know)

SO/:

Do I need to up the intake of fats (or more food in general) to decrease the chances of overtraining? Average sleep 7-8 hrs per night.... I really like this schedule but am feeling lethargic at times an am not putting on any significant weight / muscle gains..... Whilst strength is slowly getting better I think it is my love of the sports that keep my intensity high even though I feel like crap.... And like I said previously if I have a particularly intense couple of days im wrecked by weeks end......

Surely a lot of people must do high intense CF, MMA, BJJ workouts and play sport.... How do you balance it all and whats your average meal intake for 1 day?????

Daniel Myers
10-02-2007, 08:36 PM
If you want to gain, I recommed you make it a priority and really attack it. Orient your training around gaining muscle.

First, pick an actual numerical target weight. This will give you an objective way to monitor your progress. If you're fighting competitively, this could be based on your target weight class. When you weigh yourself, do it first thing in the morning. This will keep the readings consistent.

My average week consists of the following:

AM PM
M SS BJJ
T SS MMA
W REST REST
T SS "WOD / GIRLS"
F RINGS REST
S LIGHT SS REST
S REST REST

This just looks like too much volume to me. Most of the classic old-time bulking programs have you lift hard two or three days per week. Since you'll want to keep fighting, I'd recommend something more like this:

M: BJJ
T: MMA
W: LIFT
R: OFF
F: LIGHT or OFF
S: LIFT
S: OFF

If you can change the days you train martial arts, maybe try something like this. I kind of like this better:

M: LIFT
T: BJJ
W: LIGHT
R: MMA
F: LIFT
S: OFF
S: OFF

I don't think there's any reason to train two times per day. Also, you can drop the metcon while you're focusing on gaining. You'll get plenty from fighting. If you want to do ring stuff, work it into one of your lifting days.

For the two harder lifting days, you can use the Starting Strength template or any other good full-body routine. Squats and back work are mandatory. Make sure the light day is actually light.

Everyone will tell you that you need to eat. I don't disagree. Some people say that you HAVE TO EAT SO MUCH THAT MOTHERS HIDE THEIR CHILDREN FROM YOU. Eh, not really. Just get plenty of good calories from good foods. Don't be overly restrictive with your food choices.

You'll get a little bit of fat. It's part of the game, so don't worry about it. When you're done gaining, you'll tighten up your diet, add metcon back in, and be lean and mean in a few weeks.

If you can digest it, I recommend you drink a glass of milk with each meal, and one or two more during the day. Milk is liquid muscle.

Personal Story:

At the start of 2006, I was under 160 and about 20% bodyfat. I'm currently almost 185 and under 15%. Not Truly Huge, but I gained at about 25 pounds of muscle, just eating regular foods, drinking 2% milk, and killing the weights three times per week. For my frame, I'm at a good athletic size. I already had some experience lifting, including doing real leg and back work, so these were not just n00b gains. Now I look like I lift weights, even with my shirt on.

Long post. I hope that was helpful.

Sam Cannons
10-03-2007, 02:37 PM
Hey mike,

I should have that block estamation worked out for you today. You and i have almost the same schedule why dont you follow a similar WOD plan

Monday
Back Squat 3x3
Press 3x3
Power Clean 3x3
BJJ

Tuesday
MMA

Wednesday
Front Squat 3X3
Dumbell Snatch
Weighted Chin ups 5x5

Thursday
MMA/Conditioning

Friday
OHS Squat 3x3
Weighted Ring Dips 5x5
Dead Lift 1X5

Saturday
Assistance exercises / play with your rings or dumbells / work on form / go up the arrow

With what you want i wouldn't be to fust' with the met cons. Plus we do some conditioning on tues/thurs. See you this arvo

Sam Cannons
10-03-2007, 02:40 PM
Oh yeah add more FAT to your diet and swap the juice for fresh fruits, we get heaps of good fruit up here... us it. And learn to love cocconut !!!

Mark Joseph Limbaga
10-30-2007, 12:56 AM
You also need to give yourself a day of rest to allow yourself to recover and repair. You grow when you rest not while you train

Mike ODonnell
10-30-2007, 10:21 AM
You grow when you rest not while you train

Binggggggooooooo

Muscle Gain = Muscle Repair (food and rest) > Muscle damage (working out)

Remember the 2 simple rules if you are looking to gain
1) Workout less (still need to workout out of course...2-3x/week max)
2) Eat more (protein at least 1gram/lb of bodyweight)

If you are not gaining after a month....go back and re-read #1 and #2...really that simple. Unless you are on a cortisol suppressent or testosterone replacement....then forget everything else but the 2 rules above...

Mike Shaw
12-07-2007, 05:29 PM
Hey Guys, many thanks for the replies and many apologies for the delayed response......

SO.... I have recently seperated from a long term unhappy relationship which was seriously affecting my drive and determination for physical workouts. Not to harp on about it but my passion for physical fitness was not supported and we were forever arguing which made ... life.... that... much harder..... And i wonder how much of my gains were in some way inhibited by the constant anger, frustration and arguments experienced resulting in lack of quality sleep and mental "clogging"......

Now I am returning back to this subject with a renewed vigour..... in hindsight I made some nice gains with the training schedule in the morning adding 4kg in 3 weeks..... (78kg - 82kg) and maintaining that weight

Since going back to a PM (night time) only workout schedule I have dropped those 4kg and seem to be in limbo - I cant gain any more muscle
(weight) or cut down my body fat - resulting in more frustration......

My food intake is pretty much the same as listed before except I have cut the juice out to 1 glass a day with lunch and mix coconut milk with the protein shake instead of the juice...... I also add a considerable splash of olive oil to my lunch for extra calories..... I am getting more rest now than before, am lifting more with more rest in between but am still not getting "results" ...... It's really hard as I dont want to lose the athletic side of things for BJJ by only lifting heavy and losing the power endurance type stuff.

I have been doing the following schedule and am not achieving much......

M BJJ
T Oly LIFT -IE snatches - power cleans, weighted pulls etc
W Stretching - Gymnastics
T Oly Lifting - IE Deadlifts, Snatch Complex, Dips etc (maybe small metcon)
F Rest
S Rings Workout
S Rest

Im wondering if to return back to the "AM & PM" lifting schedule and hopefully achieve the same if not more results than before what would need to be added to make it work - I have adjusted my work schedule to start 1HR later the days i would be doing a morning workout thus getting up at the same time every day but doing a workout 3 mornings..... Also if more calories are required what is the best way... more olive oil????

The schedule would now look like this
MORNING ONLY
M - Snatches work to heavy double & mall rings circuit
W - Clean & Jerk work to heay double & small rings circuit
F - Front Squat work to heavy double & small rings circuit

EVENING ONLY
M - BJJ
T - Oly LIFT -IE snatches - power cleans, weighted pulls etc
W - stretching - Adult Gymnastics Class
T - Metcon / Complexes
F - REST
S - REST
S - REST

Sorry for the long winded message but hopefully this will provide a little more insight into me and help the answers come..... Also as you can see im trying to keep myself busy to help deal with the "void" from my relationship split.....

Again many thanks for your responses....

Kind Regards
Mike

Derek Weaver
12-09-2007, 09:29 PM
Keep an honest food log (fit day and calorie king are good resources) and calculate your maintenance level for caloric intake.

Figure out how much you gotta eat, and use your BJJ/metcon/complex days as your base and then eat 500 or so calories more per day. If you're not leaning out, reduce your carbs and make them come from fibrous sources.

Try this out and report back. There are a bunch of people that have contributed to your threads that are far more knowledgeable than I, but everyone can pitch in a bit and help you with your goal.

Steven Low
12-10-2007, 10:23 AM
Well, I don't think you're lacking any growth stimulus. What exactly are you doing though?

If no weight gain it's always food.. add more. (fat blocks if you're on Zone).

Mark Joseph Limbaga
12-20-2007, 07:14 AM
You probably need to eat more, which is what I see is lacking.

Try eating more nuts and eggs... also, remember to eat every 3-4 hours. Countless times I have found out that the problem with many people who could not put on weight is that the gaps between meals is too big.

Now, your program could use a little tweaking.

I'd sugest you do a 5x5 or Starting stregnth with probably this modification

mon: Squats, pullups BJJ
TU:rest
wed:c&j
thu:BJJ
fri: deads, dips or ring work
sat-sun: rest and be a lazy couch potato

Mike Shaw
01-10-2008, 12:32 AM
So coming back from holidays I noticed that whilst my activity levels dropped(significantly) along with my food my energy levels went up whilst my weight kinda hovered....... I attribute the energy due to the extra sleep from the few days granted off from work.....

However,

Is there a point where eating some much food puts you past the point of diminishing returns?? Surely the energy expended to consume and digest such a large quantity of food takes it's toll..... Should you feel tired after eating? or tired in general? I thought we do these things to feel great with an abundance of energy!!!

and

Do "bigger / more muscle mass" people consume the same quantity as me or do their (un) / fortunate genetics breakdown whatever fuel they put in there mouth and distribute with knife sharp precision? (I've never looked at an item of food knowing if I eat "that" it will benefit / deter me IE: Mississppi Mud Cake going straight to my ass!)

And lastly...

From a zone perspective it specifies that the maximum amount of protein to be consumed is 5 blocks - so what happens when you eat half a chicken and back it up with approx 3 block's carbs?? and a shot of olive oil??? for lunch.... if it's mass gain it aint happenin!

Whilst it's not great my training log is honest and I have honestly had a few more cheat's in the last few weeks than the over these last few months but it gives an accurate portrayal of the intake and output... So check out Controlling the Chaos thread in the Training logs section......

Mike ODonnell
01-10-2008, 08:07 AM
Don't worry about what people with more muscle do....as it is easier to MAINTAIN muscle mass once you get there vs trying to ADD on muscle.

If you feel you are not getting enough protein, try adding in a Whey Shake with every meal (I only use powders for gaining, not maintaining). Add coconut oil or someother healthy fat to get the calories up there.

Lastly, get rid of all the crap in your diet. Building muscle is as much about nutrient utilization than it is calories. Eat crap, you will feel like crap and look like crap. Eat healthy and your body will respond in kind. The healthier you are and eat, the less you will need to actually maintain and grow. Hence why you see people putting on mass with the zone when they stick to all Paleo foods.

Mike Shaw
01-11-2008, 12:02 AM
Cheers Mike for the fast response,
In that same vein of thinking what is happening when im eating half a chicken everyday? and for that matter a 220gram steak everynight which by the ZONE breakdown the zone blocks FOR THE STEAK is equivilent to 10 blocks protein (twice that advocated) what are these excess blocks / protein amounts doing for me? And what would happen if I ate half of what im eating now?

It seems the nutrient breakdown in the zone doesnt go past these "5" blocks and also stating the maximum protein consumed should be the size of your palm..... I know this is becoming an excursion into the zone and most probably away from the Mass Gain theme but i just thought heaps of food with appropriate output should see some visable gains..... Not half the food, same output = more results.....

Mike ODonnell
01-11-2008, 08:39 AM
I don't count calories or do zone...as it is too neurotic and totally messes with my zen life....but eat enough protein and you will do fine. After a while you just "know" what works and what doesn't...plus having low and high days of protein/carbs will always improve utilization. Still...get quality over crap for protein choices. A good steak will do more to building muscle than a whole day of eating lower quality foods.