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kevin mckay
11-08-2006, 08:36 PM
Does anybody have any links that document the negative impacts of lsd training? Looking for hard science.

Motion MacIvor
11-08-2006, 10:26 PM
I only have good things to say about LSD training but my focus has almost always been cycling so I dont really care if I stay skinny. I think the biggest issue for most people would be RSI and potetialy lower bone density. A friend of mine was training for a race when he fell on his hip. His bones were so fragile he punched the head of his femur though his pelvis. Not a good thing for a twenty seven year old.

Greg Everett
11-09-2006, 08:38 AM
I don't have links off hand, but what I can say is this:

1. Lots of individual variation in terms of how/how much LSD affects body comp, performance, etc. But typically the people who can maintain and/or build lean body mass well while doing high volume LSD are genetic anomolies and maintain good body comp regardless of training.

2. Consider adaptation--your body of course adapts to the stimuli to which it's exposed. LSD training is telling your body it needs to be able to fuel LSD efforts. The way to get better at this is functional conversion of type II muscle to type I (i.e. increasing mitochondrial density, increasing oxidative ezyme activity, reducing power capacity), eventually atrophy of type II muscle to reduce body mass and have less to carry and support metabolically (since type II despite some degree of conversion will never match type I's oxidation and fatigue-resistance capacities), and ultimately some atrophy of type I muscle to further reduce body mass and increase capillary density.

Go look at a track team--line up the sprinters next to the distance runners. Nearly invariably the sprinters are lean, muscular and powerful; the distance runners are skinny, have higher body fat %, and have little power capacity.

As far as excessive oxidative stress from LSD goes, there are arguments that claim the body can bump up its inherent anti-oxidant capacity, but nothing stunning. It's not argued by any sources I know of that LSD suppresses immune system function. Repetitive use injuries. Hypotension. Unnaturally regular heart beat.

I think Art DeVany has written quite a bit on the subject. Here's one link:
http://www.arthurdevany.com/archives/endurance_training_death_injury_and_risk/index.html

Russell Greene
11-09-2006, 10:18 AM
It's not hard science, but I've only run faster since I stopped doing LSD, at all distances, while gaining lean mass and a lot of strength and power. My mile the season I did LSD was 5:35, the season I didn't do LSD it was 5:12, and I was 20 lbs. heavier with a 50 lb. higher power clean, and was training for swimming and the shot put at the same time. Look at Dean Karnazes, he's considered muscular by distance runners, and weighs only 154 lbs. I consider myself fairly thin and I'm 173 lbs.

When I want to go slow and long, I go for a long walk. You get the same mental benefits of relaxation and spending time outside, without the joint trauma and loss of strength and power.

Jeremy Jones
11-09-2006, 11:28 AM
I don't know any hard evidence off hand, but this would be the first place I would look:

http://www.powerrunning.com/

Greg Everett
11-09-2006, 03:24 PM
And don't forget to consider the long-term effects of LSD:

John Vernon
11-09-2006, 04:50 PM
Thanks Greg, that has got to be the MOST convincing argument not to partake in LSD.

Jeremy Jones
11-10-2006, 03:50 PM
How'd you get a picture of my Mom?!

Brad Hirakawa
11-10-2006, 08:32 PM
Your mom? In fact, that is a picture of me!!!!!!

Son... I've missed you so...

Mamma,
Brad

Robb Wolf
11-11-2006, 07:03 AM
Mama Brad...classic!

Jeremy Jones
11-13-2006, 10:34 AM
Yes, I have missed you soooo much.



Send money.




now.

Neal Winkler
12-04-2006, 03:48 PM
From http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=527120:

"Runner's Diarrhea" Mike Pleacher, MD

Yes, they really devoted a full 45 minutes to this. It's hard to believe that people really give a shit (pun!), huh? Apparently, this is a bigger pain in the ass (pun!) than we could even imagine.

About 20-33% of endurance runners complain of lower abdominal cramping and/or a feeling of urgency and frequency during and after long duration races. Moreover, one study found that 20% of runners had occult blood in their stool after they completed a marathon. That kind of data collection must have been a crappy (pun!) job.

Butt (pun!) anyway, it's important to differentiate between upper and lower gastrointestinal symptoms. Upper GI problems relate to gastro-esophageal reflux disorder, nausea/vomiting and belching. They generally occur because of low esophageal sphincter pressure, increased gastric acid secretion, and reduced gastric emptying during exercise.

Conversely, lower GI problems "hit you much lower," and may be due to a number of factors:

1) Altered Intestinal Transit Time (also known as "Gum to Bum" time): This time period increases from 35 to 24 hours in sedentary people when they undertake endurance training. Strenuous activity, on the other hand, actually slows down transit time.

2) Changes in GI Tract Blood Flow: Around 80% less blood is delivered to the GI tract during intense exercise. This problem is further exacerbated by dehydration (80% of athletes experience lower GI symptoms when dehydrated by 4% or more).

3) Fluid and Electrolyte Shifts: Beyond just water shifts, there may be implications in terms of electrolyte effects on smooth muscle contraction in the GI tract.

4) Autonomic Nervous System Stimulation: Parasympathetic tone increases during low-intensity exercise; this increase corresponds to decreased transit time. In contrast, high-intensity work decreases parasympathetic tone and has the opposite effect.

5) GI Hormone Secretion: Gastrin, motilin and VIP secretion increase with exercise.

6) Mechanical Causes: I had to throw this one in there, as I was really surprised to hear it. An overly hypertrophied hip flexor, as is commonly seen in runners, can mechanically compress the colon and lead to lower GI distress.

7) Diet and Medications: Lactose intolerance is a differential diagnosis, and the high fiber diet followed by most aerobic training enthusiasts can potentially be excessive. Sorbitol and aspartame have been known to cause osmotic diarrhea, too. Antibiotics may lead to altered bacterial growth, and H2 blockers and magnesium-containing antacids (taken for upper GI relief) can lead to problems in the lower GI region.

All in all, the important point to take away from this presentation is that "aerobic training = diarrhea." Consider yourselves forewarned, cardio bunnies.

Robb Wolf
12-06-2006, 11:26 AM
I had a dream that "we" cultivated a warm, accepting environment in which cardio and strength athletes could play a frolic, side by side! I've a sneaking suspicion that may be a long shot!

Greg Everett
12-06-2006, 11:34 AM
perhaps, but what is a man without a dream?

Mike ODonnell
12-06-2006, 01:03 PM
All depends on how far away the flag is in Capture the Flag.....100 meters...or 12 miles....

Motion MacIvor
12-06-2006, 10:59 PM
Rob,
you are not alone. In my mind the the most amazingly fit athletes in the world are road racers (just dont ask them to do a push up;) ) A good road racer can sprint for 10 seconds grind for hours or chase down a break as long as it takes. the power to weight these guys develop is mind blowing (lance armstrong has posted the highest power to weight ratio on a ever recorded on a concept 2 rower at 4.1). The problem is that they dont have any upper body strength and they have a very limited skill set. When I did my first crossfit workout at crossfit vancouver I immediatly recognized that the CF protocol has the potential to give an athlete roadracer fitness for his/her whole body with a huge skill set that would transfer to any sport (I also play hockey, snowboard, and DH MTB). The reason I started doing crossfit was to become a complete athlete, and to achieve that complete fitness.
So starting last january I focused on crossfit alone. I gained weight, strength and skill but when I went to go ride my bike in march I sucked. It wasnt the end of the world. A couple weeks of hill repeats had me back in the swing of things (actually I was suprised how quickly i adapted to the intervals) but I never really thrived on the epic rides like I used to.
Based on my experience I have I decided that everyone who says that crossfit improved their cycling or running or triathalon was never really that good in the first place. Dont get me wrong I think crossfit is awesome for what it is, but to fully buy into the crossfit program you have to fully buy into Glassmans (and crawley's) definition of fitness. That does'nt really work for me because any time I do something fun I do it for a long time (heh heh) so endurance is more important to me than the rest of the crossfit crew.

It's funny I kind of feel like renne zelwiger in jerry mcguire when tom cruise waves his spirit fingers and says "all i wanna know... is whos coming with me"
I will Rob. I will come with you

Neal Winkler
12-08-2006, 01:35 PM
Robb, sorry, but I can't be friends with people that love doing things that make them poop in their pants! :-)

Motion, what was the time period that Lance's power to weight ratio was taken over?

Motion MacIvor
12-08-2006, 06:14 PM
The Lady who gave the presentation at the CF cert was using 500 m to measure power to weight for the CF athletes. When somebody asked what the highest recorded ratio was she said lance and 4.1. I assume it was over a 500 m distance that probably did'nt take very long at all. But then you know what they say about assumptions.

BTW Neal you're free to hang out with whomever you choose I just know that if I had such high standards I would'nt have any friends at all.

Neal Winkler
12-08-2006, 08:09 PM
Mr. Poopy pants (Motion),

I would of guessed that a non-rowing athlete like a 400-800 meter sprinter would be able to put out a way better power ratio than someone like Lance Armstrong in a 500 row. Also, Lance is a better rower than actual rowers? Are we surmising that Lance's long distance training is better for power over a couple minutes than short-term, high-intensity training?

Mike ODonnell
12-08-2006, 08:39 PM
DeVanny and others have done the whole cancer to long term training link (aka marathon runners and distance bicyclists). Just looking at it from the health of the body point of view, long distance training certainly increases the level or cortisol, thereby decreasing glucagon (muscle saving), and also has high oxidative damage. Now all that stress to the body certainly can not be healthy long term. (I am referring to people who do LSD on a consistent basis and not someone who does it for fun on the weekend). If you look at most LSD trainees you will most likely find a higher % of BF, less lean muscle, increase in illnesses, cold, etc, depressed immune system, more joint damage, high levels on inflammation, increased risk of skin and other cancers, and also just a general aging to them (they look older). I think fitness should be concerned with overall health and balance too....otherwise why do we do it? I run/bike distances here and there...but it is certainly not a staple to my training program.

I usually say sprinters can have decent edurance over longer distances, but joggers usually are not good sprinters. Of course you train for your needs.

Motion MacIvor
12-09-2006, 12:38 AM
Neal
First off Lance is a freak
Second Lance does TONS of intervals all road racers do. It's the tri geeks, some XC mountainbike racers, and tons of "fitness enthusiasts" that try to get away with LSD only.
Third the big sprinters are only faster when the going is flat this is true for any sport. If sprints were raced uphill you'd find a lot of skinny guys with huge legs winning the races. Gravity is the confounding factor, or in the case of rowing water displacement.
I think the power ratio that the concept people use is flawed though because it asumes that drag on the hull of the boat has a 1:1 relationship to water displacement. If this was true heavyweight crews would be slower than the light weight crews, or there would be no real difference because the light weight crews would make up for the lack of power with greater eficiency.
I dont think Lance would actualy row faster than a big elite rower but he does have a higher power to weight ratio.
Funny I was just thinking that female gymnasts probably have some of the best power to weight ratios going for short bursts

Coach Rutherford
12-09-2006, 03:51 AM
I don't know any hard evidence off hand, but this would be the first place I would look:

http://www.powerrunning.com/



A couple of random thoughts.

1 The only species I know of that does LSD are migratory birds and humans who wear NIKE. Every thing else does intervals.

2. Back in the 80's (stop laughing) I had a solid business coaching triathletes. This was BI (before internet) and BS (before software) I coached over 50 athletes with a spreadsheet I cooked up and a fax machine. I guided 8 athletes through the IRONMAN in Hawaii.

The big difference at the time was my programming approach. My template included lower volume and intervals. My athletes did a session of intervals a session of AT training and a session of mixed mode work. IE- Swim/Bike, Bike/Run...

Most were healthy, at least physcially.

Mike ODonnell
12-09-2006, 06:29 AM
1 The only species I know of that does LSD are migratory birds and humans who wear NIKE. Every thing else does intervals.


I agree that LSD aka "jogging" training is more an industry nowadays. Promoted by running companies. How much do the organizers/cities make at every marathon, half, 5ks, 10ks...etc every weekend? And we wouldn't need all those $200 spring loaded heeled shoes if we were sprinting. First thing I tell people when they come in is ditch the spring loaded shoes, as it only serves to screw up their proper squatting form and eventually their knees.

As for the early 80s comment coach....snicker....sorry I digress, I imagine trying to do a spreadsheet on the likes of a Comodore 64....How much fun that was I can not imagine. All I used mine for was "Pitfall" and "Pole Position".

Not sure how many people would show up for a weekend interval hill run! I'm in though.

Robb Wolf
12-09-2006, 04:31 PM
Hmmm...we had a kid that placed 3rd in California in Mtn. Biking (down hill) last year. He trained with us for 6 months and to my knowledge has won everything he has entered (I'll shoot him an email and see if he will wander over here and comment on performance). Now...these are shorter races so it may not carry much weight with what Motion was saying.

We have had several riders who are only recreational but have commented that the CrossFit training has improved their games. Typically they train with us during the week and ride the weekends.

I think this is an opportunity that was missed by CF at large, namely how does one take mixed modal activities to improve "YOUR" sport. Not how big of a CrossFit stud can you be...how can we apply this technology to improve your chosen endeavor? About a year or two ago a template was put forward by the Calhoon High Powerlifting coach. They were using some smart met cons to drive GPP and dial in body comp amidst some very good PL'ing prep.

In the case of a triathalete or marathoner, they could certainly benefit from some mixed modal activities, but not on the format of the Calhoon PL'ers.

I think Coach Glassman's definition of fitness is genius. I think it provides a theoretical framework for pursuing optimized health and a very broad performance base...but as one migrates further and further from the glycolytic pathway, with either a power or aerobic bias, programming must reflect this shift if one desires to be among the "elite" of that group and by his (coach Glassman’s) definition one may become a “fringe” athlete. I guess my point is that as coaches and trainers it’s important to put the needs and desires of our clients ahead of our personal biases. The reality is if folks aspire to the highest levels of performance they may not be particularly well rounded OR healthy.

Greg Everett
12-09-2006, 04:44 PM
yes, but said kid was a downhill racer--completely different sport, more akin to motorcross in terms of physical demands (e.g. moving large, heavy machine around at high speeds), so the strength and power he gained training with us was definitely beneficial, whereas it has much less transferability for other cycling such as road or XC even.

Motion MacIvor
12-09-2006, 07:14 PM
Rob we are on exactly the same wave length.
BTW another reason I liked crossfit form the start is that it is perfect for DH no modifacations needed. I actualy I think it the most perfectly designed training program for dh racing ever. My Downhilling was fine this year it was just the long rides that did'nt go so hot.

Motion MacIvor
12-09-2006, 07:15 PM
who is that kid your training?

Robb Wolf
12-10-2006, 09:06 AM
who is that kid your training?

Erik Erickson. Catchy name!

Scott Kustes
12-10-2006, 10:15 AM
Very Scandinavian

Jeremy Jones
12-11-2006, 03:39 PM
Very Scandinavian

Being of Norwegian decent. . . I concur.

Yael Grauer
12-11-2006, 04:26 PM
Being of Norwegian decent. . . I concur.

Norwegian decent? What happened to all the scantily clad Norwegians?

I guess telemarksbunad are even better...

Jeremy Jones
12-12-2006, 02:18 PM
They all came to the US. But we still wear our telemarksbunad to scare the locals.


oh, and some went to Denmark.

http://www.speedbandits.dk/

Yael Grauer
12-12-2006, 02:43 PM
http://www.speedbandits.dk/

OMG. :eek:

Mike ODonnell
12-12-2006, 06:12 PM
Speeding down.....head on collisions...Up...

I know where I need to move to.

Jeremy Jones
12-14-2006, 11:30 AM
It is more proof of my theory that breasts can solve everything.

Robb Wolf
12-15-2006, 05:42 PM
Proof that Scandinavia is THE most civilized place on earth.

Pierre Auge
12-16-2006, 05:26 PM
lol, what a wonderful world we live in...

Robb,
I only just noticed that you are the "Super Moderator" does that make that you can moderate the moderators? And if that is the case than who moderates the Super Moderator? The Superlative Moderator? The Extreme Moderator? No don't like that one.. How about the Moderisimo? Outstanding Moderator, Moderator in Excellence, Fantastic Moderator? I think I'm getting closer, the Magnificent Moderator, WAIT I've got it the Divine Moderator!!!

Only the Divine need not be moderated!!!!

Greg Everett
12-16-2006, 05:50 PM
I do...

Jonas Lind
12-16-2006, 06:03 PM
Robb, -and more specifically Sweden!

btw we have good coffee too...

Scott Kustes
12-18-2006, 09:58 AM
Yes, the question is "Is the Administrator higher than the Super Moderator?" Could we witness a Robb/Greg power struggle? Will the PM forum be torn asunder into a Performance forum and a Menu forum? Who shall emerge victorious?

Greg, watch it...I bet Robb knows all kinds of biochemical tricks to trip you up.

Greg Everett
12-18-2006, 11:07 AM
Yes, the question is "Is the Administrator higher than the Super Moderator?"

of course. i didn't spend all these years ruining my eyesight in front of a computer to just give up the power.


Greg, watch it...I bet Robb knows all kinds of biochemical tricks to trip you up.

probably... but as a result of my misguided youth, my body is capable of tolerating obscene doses of foreign chemicals with little or no effect. I'm not concerned.

Robb Wolf
12-18-2006, 04:03 PM
Jonas-
I spent 2 weeks in Marstrand a couple of years ago. I LOVE Sweden! My family is from Sweden on my father’s side. Apparently we had a castle there once. After arriving in America my family developed a penchant for trailer parks instead of castles. Go figure.

As to the whole "Super Moderator" question...it’s really an existentialist question...with no satisfying answer...

Robb, -and more specifically Sweden!

btw we have good coffee too...