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View Full Version : The truth of long-term WD-type fasting


Heidi Anschultz
11-03-2007, 03:28 PM
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Stuart Mather
11-03-2007, 04:03 PM
G'day Heidi, what I like most about IF is the improved body comp with slightly less resistance exercise than I was doing over a four year stretch with low carb only (which itself was a substantial improvement on mod/high 'healthy, complex/unprocessed carbs' previously). Warrior dieters who snack throughout the day are not really intermittently fasting anyway. And Ori himself doesn't seem to have a clue about the health/body comp benefits of carb restriction. I've no idea to what extent he personally snacks during the day. But the muscle growth gene expression/hgh boosting effect of going for longer without food is not going to be as high if you're 'soft plateauing' these mechanisms by not eliminating calorie intake altogether.

And as I think might have been mentioned to you in an earlier post, the tripartite approach to efficient muscle growth of IF/adequate protein and EFA's/ regular intense resistance exercise truly is an effective strategy. But you can't miss out one element and expect the others to take up the slack. You've mentioned that your study committments make resistance exercise difficult. Maybe so, Heidi, but even the busiest person in the world can manage a daily 10 minute body weight resistance program. You can do it anywhere/anytime/ wearing whatever you have on. But it will only work (in that short time frame) if you do it with an intensity that you may not have even imagined you were capable of. At the end of that 10 minutes, you really should feel as if you muscles are going to dissolve.

It's only ten minutes. Your muscle glycogen reserves won't even come close to being exhausted, even if you eat zero carbohydrate.

Muscles simply will not grow unless you work them, even if you do eat enough protein and intermittently fast. Give it a go. You'll be amazed. And FWIW it will also enhance cognitive function.

Stuart

Jordan Glasser
11-03-2007, 09:45 PM
So my question that I hope does not get me banned from this forum is this: does the warrior diet or intermittent fasting cause loss of muscle? Aside from the "health benefits" of intermittent fasting, why would it be a good thing to be wasting away neck muscle, organ muscle, etc. other muscles that you cannot in any way consciously train on a regular basis?

Maybe I am oversimplifying things here..... If you are wasting away, as per the question above, then there is something wrong, no matter what the diet is. The results that are sought after by IF or warrior diet are intended to increase lean muscle mass and or body composition, any other result would be indicative of a diet that simply isn't working.

The answer to your question, IMO, no it should not. Some muscle loss perhaps, but only to a point, wasting away, not at all a goal of any diet.

Derek Simonds
11-04-2007, 03:56 AM
I had lunch with Scotty Hagnas a couple of weeks ago and I can tell you in no uncertain terms there is no wasting away on him at all! Dude is ripped and he is one of the earliest adopters of the IF / Paleo protocol I know.

Steve Liberati
11-04-2007, 04:35 AM
Muslce loss? Sure, that is if you don't eat enough calories at the end of a fast or make up for it the on the following 'feed' day. I can certainly see this being an issue on the Warrior Diet. Too few calories.

However, with an IF schedule most follow here, enough calories are consumed after/before the 20 hour fast.

It really depends on your total calorie intake at the end of the day. Every other day I fast until 5 pm. 5 pm on, I'll have 2-3 meals giving me a total of around 19-20 blocks. If I fall short, I simply make up for it the next 'feed' day.
Not sure how you would make that work on the warrior diet? I would think 20 blocks in one GIANT meal would be nearly impossible (not like I was ever that brave to try it anyway).

Mike ODonnell
11-04-2007, 04:58 PM
Eat enough protein and don't overtrain...you will not lose muscle. If you want to look like a bodybuilder, it's about training more fast twitch IIb fibers for increased size and glycogen loading. Plenty of lean people have more strength and explosiveness and don't need to look like a BB to perform.

Heidi you have asked this question before, so my advice is see a local professional physician if you feel you are losing muscle tissue while still eating a ton of protein/calories. There may be other health issues going on. Don't continue using the IF approach if it is NOT working for you, that defeats the purpose. Unless you can monitor all variables routinely and find what works, don't just guess and make no changes and continue down a road of ill-health

Yvana van den Hork
11-06-2007, 07:38 AM
Heidi, I've personally tried to go back to my old ways of skipping breakfast & lunch and then only eat after 5pm.. but dropped the idea after just 2 days as my body just literally FROZE!
Then dabbled with 2 meals a day = breakfast @ 10am and dinner at 10pm for over a month, nah, maintenance dropped on it: added fruit which helped immensely.
But the actual diet that pleases me most of all and has sped up fat loss once again was
10am: breakfast 1-2hrs after rising
4 or 5-6pm: egg-based meal @ 4pm when I train, otherwise a protein-rich salad
6-8pm: a slowcarb drink when training, sometimes some extra carbs when I feel really tired upon returning home.
10-11pm : a heavier meal , with extra carbs the night before training (switched from eating more after training as this gives better performance)

So, there's 2 distinct non-eating windows. One at night that's nearly 12 hrs and another one that's somewhere between 6 and 10 hrs, depending on whether I'm rising early or not. I'm self-employed and mostly work at whatever time pleases me. Sometimes I wake up early, other times extremely late, like today since I've slept 11hrs (am ill).

My figuring is that most will benefit from lowered blood sugar levels and hence somewhat better body recomposition during the fasting period. And indeed, so do I. But the fact that you're fasting for 16-20 hours or longer makes you run more on adrenalin and less on food as fuel . I've been diagnosed as slightly hypothyroid and this explains most of the puzzle.
And this also seems to make me especially vulnerable to LBM loss. Despite high body fat levels, I lose excessive amounts of LBM once things don't go like they should go (overtraining, undereating by more than 15% etc.). This shouldn't happen, but it DOES.

So.. how about a sensible 3 meals a day, but just take out the energy-sapping lunch. Fasting DOES make me feel more alert, which I love.. and clearly is the reason why I used to do it all the time. But if all it does is lower your metabolism and you end up losing LBM instead of fat.. then it's not for YOU!

Greg Battaglia
11-07-2007, 11:28 AM
Heidi, every single time I find myself not feeling well I know that all I have to do is consider the 4 pillars of health, and fix the one that's falling short. They are :
Exercise
Sleep/Recovery
Stress/Enjoyment of life
Nutrition

If any one of these is out of wack or being neglected, you're going to feel like crap. Don't try to compare yourself to the innumerable bums around you (ESPECIALLY in college) that eat cafeteria food, get 3 hours of sleep a night, stress out about every little thing there is, and think that walking to their second floor class is a workout. These people DO feel like shit, all the time. They aren't healthy, and unfortunately, probably never will be. Try not to compare your self to people that are worse off than you are. Compare yourself to people who are better off than you are. This is the only way to progress and motivate yourself. So many people have that habit of saying "Well, atleast I'm better off than that person".

Greg Battaglia
11-09-2007, 08:19 AM
I'm not in accelerated classes, as I focus more on my health than I do academics, admittedly. However, I do maintain a 3.8 GPA, WHILE also maintaining my health and fitness. It goes hand in hand. Hard work in one area of life leads to hard work in another. Honestly, I disagree with your contention that college is more important. The reason people want a "good" job is so that they can make lots of money, so that they can get lots of material things. I believe firmly in a life of simplicity, that is, to quote the author of the book titled Voluntary Simplicity "Outwardly simple, but inwardly rich." Once people achieve these high paying job they feel as though their dreams have come true, when in reality all these jobs do is create an enormous amount of stress, neglect of family and friends, and poor eating, sleeping, and exercise habits. The result is poor health, a dysfunctional family life, and a really miserable person overall. But hey, at least you get to watch football on your big screen TV that cost you 2 grand! Oh, and don't forget about bragging rights. You can tell all your friends how much better than them you are based on the size of your bank account. This will make up for all of the insecurities you have acquired due to an unusually (or is it usually, nowadays?) large waistline and little case of diabetes, heart disease, and maybe some insomnia to go along. This isn't a personal attack on you, but more of a vent for myself as I'm amazed at people's order of priorities these days. People believe that material objects can make them happy. This is not, and never will be true. Health, love, and passion are the keys to happiness. Not money.

Greg Battaglia
11-10-2007, 12:59 PM
I couldn't agree with you more. This is stuff I've been thinking about for a long time. It really amazes me. I think the reason people chase materialism is because they've never truly experienced vibrant health. They were unhealthy from day one when their mothers fed them baby formula and cheerios. The only hope that they thought they had for happiness was materialism. I saw a documentary last week in a diversity class I'm taking on contemporary Chinese culture. They were comparing the lifestyles of industrial China to those who lived in rural area. It was amazing how much happier the rural community was than the industrial. The farmers had nothing but their small shacks and rice fields in terms of possessions, but were incredibly happy, as they had a close-knit family and a slow paced lifestyle. The grandparents of the farmers, who stilled lived of the land were in there 90's and still seemed upbeat and hopeful. The city dwellers were plagued with depression and anger despite having all sorts of material objects and money. They "enjoyed" plenty of fast food, fast cars, video games, guitars, etc yet openly admitted to being miserable. Sadly, it's only a few of us who are realizing this obvious problem. (sighing) what to do, what to do.

Jay Cohen
11-10-2007, 04:56 PM
I don't know what to do.


Zen Buddhist would suggest Zazen.

Chris Forbis
11-10-2007, 08:49 PM
in college, grades are the most important thing.

I highly disagree with this idea. The social maturation of college is at least as important as the intellectual development. Further, intellectual development shouldn't be dependent upon grades. The most important thing about college is to enjoy the experience (in total). Second is to emphasize the enjoyment of the learning process. Good grades should be a byproduct of the learning process, not the primary goal.

Greg Battaglia
11-11-2007, 05:43 PM
I think that's a great plan. I've considered a similar plan myself, actually. Just follow your heart. Don;'t do something just to impress your parents or other people. Live your passion.

David Aguasca
11-11-2007, 06:33 PM
i couldn't agree with you more, heidi and greg.

when i first applied to college, i chose big names-Yale, Columbia, Cornell. not much later, i was at Cornell, studying engineering, because it was a field that paid well, and i figured my love of math would make it bearable. i soon found out i didn't like engineering, and i hated the academic pressure. i spent only three semesters there, and then withdrew.

after a hiatus from school, i've returned, this time to a small school in New Hampshire. i'm studying adventure education. average salary for an adventure educator? $17k-23k a year. does that matter to me? no. instead of sitting in an office all day, i'll be teaching on a mountain, or in a forest. my students will become climbers, backpackers, adventurers. that's all that matters to me now. i love it.

Yael Grauer
11-11-2007, 07:01 PM
I highly disagree with this idea. The social maturation of college is at least as important as the intellectual development.

And all this time I thought college was about drinking... or, as our college cheer went, "Sex, drugs and Socrates...we kick ass on GREs!"

Yael Grauer
11-11-2007, 07:03 PM
David, get your WFR cert if you haven't already. I have friends that have gotten and not gotten jobs depending on whether they were certified.

Of course, I got my WMA WFR cert and never worked in outdoor ed at all, but it certainly has come in handy when checking for spinal injuries out in the middle of nowhere.

Garrett Smith
11-12-2007, 07:54 AM
Heidi,
No one that I know of cares or asks about someone's grades in college once they are finished and have the degree.

It's possible that some employers may go against those applicants who actually put their GPA on their CV/resume, as it would possibly appear arrogant.

FYI, many of my medical school classmates with the highest GPAs also failed their medical boards the first time through. I think the stress of always having to perform to super-high standards finally came due after four years of straining.

Greg Battaglia
11-12-2007, 08:53 AM
Dr. G, I agree. I personally have experienced this. I used to try SO hard in school. I was a straight A student. NEVER got a B. Then I realized that it's just not worth the stress. There's more to life than work. Ironically, I'm still pumping out mostly A's without all the stress.

Mike ODonnell
11-12-2007, 09:38 AM
The grades and degree get you your first job.....from there people only care about your accomplishments, skills and experience.

David Aguasca
11-12-2007, 11:24 AM
yael,

yeah, it's super important. WFR is actually part of the core curriculum for my major....lucky me : )

for me, grades are important to stay in school. when it comes to outdoor education, networking and past experience will get you your first job...and probably every job after that. that, and a good interview.

Jay Cohen
11-12-2007, 11:35 AM
yael,

yeah, it's super important. WFR is actually part of the core curriculum for my major....lucky me : )



David, last December I spent a week in Red Rock with Matt Erpelding, a professional guide with American Alpine Institute out of Washington.

When he's not guiding, he teaches the WFR courses around the country.

Since you're a climber and at some point taking the WFR, his email is:

materp@experientialadventures.com

Very cool guy, great climber.

Just thought this might interest you.

Jane Michel
11-12-2007, 02:47 PM
This thread reminds me of a post (http://www.davedraper.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/13563/tp/2/) I saw on in an IF thread on Dave Draper's forum:

I was once in a village deep inside India where there was no electricity or running water, no telephone lines, and not much transport options. The life was simple – get up with the sun, eat a simple break fast, tend to the fields, tend the cattle, shower, lunch, do nothing much till the end of the day, dinner and sleep a little after sunset. All this food would be about two meals of what I would eat in a day here, and the work is about same effort as I put for my training and other sundries, but the body and mental load is 1/10 of what I have usually.

The first two days, I was frigging lost, finicky, worried and fidgeting – just because I didn’t have anything to keep myself busy than meet people; no work, no mental garbage, no phones, no emails. By day three I was relieved, relaxed and became calm. I tasted a little serenity and internal calm. I noticed the people unhurried, unworried, unbothered. Those guys are hearty and healthy, I lost five pounds in a week. This brings me to the effects of our modern living; its plate full.

This also looks the effect of mental tranquility in effecting the important blood serum factors. Have anyone noticed the medical bills of the explosive personalities? I have seen some, they are mainly blood pressure, diabetes, elevated heart rate, high lipids, immune problems, etc.

Have anyone thought about the effects of the rock, jazz and pop in everything? Am I going off tangent here?

Not exactly, as these things have also been studied, and the internal responses aren’t very tranquil.

Health may be effected by taking care of the basics first and getting down to the nitty gritty later, but good health is cellular in nature.

Live life to the fullest – physically, mentally, spiritually…

Luv ‘n light
Subeer

Yael Grauer
11-12-2007, 03:08 PM
I
I think I'll change my major to something with the environment, that doesn't require much to pass my classes, so I can enjoy life a little more.

Try Prescott. ;)

Jay Cohen
11-12-2007, 05:02 PM
Am I missing something here or do I need to increase my Soy intake. Obviously my Estrogen levels must be way low....................

Jane Michel
11-12-2007, 05:22 PM
Well here I have my mom having me talking to strangers about how I'll make it through. And I have you guys telling me to take the "easy" or at least, more fun, way.

Alicia, I remember reading an article, though I can't remember the author or the title of the article, but it was a college graduate journalist writing about how he went to visit a Swiss village for a week or a month and how he observed how they lived a simple life. They woke up at sunrise and went to bed at sunset, and they didn't do much. He concluded just that, that they did not accomplish much. They just existed.

...

Should I trust you guys or trust my mom, whom I've known my whole life? Mostly everyone around me appreciates material items and money. They eat junk and have poor health. They stress out and handle it by "partying." I don't get drunk or smoke or do drugs, and it suits me. Whatever suits you I guess. I would like to do things that I cannot because it is not viewed as good, and I guess if you care what others think, then do what they want you to do.

I'm trying to listen to my mom when she tells me to hang in there and get my civil engineering degree. But she is biased. Perhaps you guys are biased, because you care more about your health than job positions. Maybe even most of you guys did not go to college. Who knows. Generally, I don't care what she thinks, because fortunately, I have a life, and I can chose what I do with it.

I don't know who to trust, honestly. If I drop out of college, which I don't plan on doing, I would lose the 32 hours I have earned so far that would probably count towards any major. And if I stay, I will probably either continue with civil engineering or switch to environmental studies. Either way, my mom said any major is going to entail a lot of stress and that is what college is about.

Hang in there and finish your degree.

A degree is pretty common now and your mom probably wants you to be able to take care of yourself and to support yourself in future. If you want to have an easier life, you can do that after graduating, knowing that you have at least something to use if you suddenly need more money.

Almost every pathway in life involves some stress. The question whether you are able to manage the stress or not.

Having a simple life doesn't mean you have to drop everything and move to a mountainside to become a hermit (extreme example). It can mean going to college and socialising, but choosing your friends wisely and cutting out all the useless stuff like partying out late and getting drunk.

What are your priorities in life?

Greg Battaglia
11-12-2007, 05:39 PM
Heidi, I don't think you should listen to us. What we are expressing is purely our own opinions on life, and what we would personally prefer. Don't drop out of school because of this. On the other hand, don't listen to your mom, or anyone else either. Be an individual, use your own mind and follow your heart. You have to ask yourself "What do I want out of life?" because you only live it once. A lot of people spend so much time planning and looking forward to what they are going to do with life that they never end up doing anything at all. I may be wrong, I've never met your mom, but the chances are she wants you to get a prestigious degree because it reflects well on her. It shows, in our society at least, that you're hard working, sophisticated, and intelligent. No parent wants their child to drop out of school, because they fear how that decision will reflect on them negatively. It's all social. A lot of that occurs with materialism as well. People want money and objects simply to show others how "good" they are. You're mom also wants to see you happy. Unfortunately, she has a twisted perspective on what happiness is, and like most people in our society, believes that it lies in materialism. I'm not personally criticizing your mom, my parents are the same way. Our culture has been trained this way, essentially brain washed. Television, Radio, billboards, ads in stores, etc combined with social ideals perpetuate this line of thought. It's important to decide what YOU want. You must follow your heart. This is key. If following your heart means working your ass off and getting a Ph D in a field that you're absolutely passionate about, then by all means, you should do this. If it means just getting a degree in environmental science or ecology and making what you wish of that, then do that. You need to prioritize. But whatever you do, do not follow a certain path just because other people want you to. It's your life, remember that. It may be that you really do like engineering, and your contemplating dropping out because they going is getting tough and you're feeling discouraged. If that's the case, then do not drop out. Work hard and get the degree you want. Based on your post, it seems quite clear that you don't care at all about engineering. If you really love the environment, and you would like a career in that field, then choose that path. You seem passionate about it. I feel the same way. It kills me to know that the environment is being destroyed because of a bunch of jackasses. I heard about this guy the other day that had a mansion with all sorts of fountains and fancy BS on his lawn. His house used 400,000 gallons of water/ month! The average household uses only 100,00 gallon/ YEAR. What a waste. Completely unnecessary. All because this bozo wanted to make up for his insecurities by showing every one "great" he is that he can afford such "luxuries". Follow your heart, honestly. Block out everyone else's opinions and truly ask yourself what you desire from life. Then make a decision.

Jordan Glasser
11-12-2007, 06:37 PM
I thought I checked this site regularly, but, this thread is growing fast and furious.

I am not too sure what's attracted me to express myself here, because the information has been put forth very articulately in numerous places.

Here goes:
Wake up every day and decide to enjoy life.
Surround yourself with people who do the same.
No one knows for sure how it is they will achieve the goals they are after....but make sure those goals exist, and you KNOW you will get there.
Yes, like it or not, people will influence you in life; friends, family, strangers, events. Make them influence you in a positive way. This sounds funny, but, it's all in perception...... Your mom, she is influencing you to finish school and get said degree. You can look at that and say, it's stressful to live up to her standards. Or, you can say, my mom knows I can do this, I should know I can do it too.

Stress is such a funny one. But it's everything. Only you create it, only you can influence it.

What was mentioned earlier about grades, the importance of them, and how some people can study less and get a better GPA is all related to stress. Staying up, studying too much, will leave the brain tired and inefficient. One that studied ahead of time, didn't lose sleep leading up to a test, and didn't cram all the information near the end in hopes of a good grade, is more likely to get a better result.

I think there is good value of expressing your thoughts when it comes to making decisions. So many people don't have the networks to stimulate and challenge themselves to achieve what they are capable of.

Lastly....school and what it is IMO. It's about "learning" how to deal with stress. Life, is full of it, and learning how to overcome stressful situations, without "killing" yourself is the real value in school. The tools you develop to successfully complete what you started by going to college, are the tools that can make for a happy and fulfilling existence.

Oops, one more lastly, I don't think I read anywhere in this thread someone expressing their opinion that you should drop out of school.

Steve Liberati
11-12-2007, 06:54 PM
Heidi,
Get the degree, You won't regret. It will open up a world of possibilities that will afford you the luxury and flexiblity to pursue other passions in life and most importantly your true calling in life. It is the balance between the starving artist (who loves what they do but struggles to make ends meet) and the wealthy investment banker (who makes tons of money but has a miserable personal life). What I mean is the degree will likely afford you a certain standard of living while you discover what it is that you really want to for the rest of your life (very few people really know what that is either especially majority of college students).

But above all - make sure to get your money's worth and not just labor over grades. Network like crazy (might be worth more than the degree later down the road), study abroad, take classes outside your major, socialize as much as possible and just ENJOY your time there as much as you can (of course that doesn't have to mean alcohol and partying!). As the saying goes, experience is the true spice of life.

Allison Barns
11-12-2007, 07:10 PM
I thought I checked this site regularly, but, this thread is growing fast and furious.

I am not too sure what's attracted me to express myself here, because the information has been put forth very articulately in numerous places.

Here goes:
Wake up every day and decide to enjoy life.
Surround yourself with people who do the same.
No one knows for sure how it is they will achieve the goals they are after....but make sure those goals exist, and you KNOW you will get there.
Yes, like it or not, people will influence you in life; friends, family, strangers, events. Make them influence you in a positive way. This sounds funny, but, it's all in perception...... Your mom, she is influencing you to finish school and get said degree. You can look at that and say, it's stressful to live up to her standards. Or, you can say, my mom knows I can do this, I should know I can do it too.

Stress is such a funny one. But it's everything. Only you create it, only you can influence it.

What was mentioned earlier about grades, the importance of them, and how some people can study less and get a better GPA is all related to stress. Staying up, studying too much, will leave the brain tired and inefficient. One that studied ahead of time, didn't lose sleep leading up to a test, and didn't cram all the information near the end in hopes of a good grade, is more likely to get a better result.

Like I said, I'm drawn to this thread like looking at debris leftover from an accident on the side of a highway. I think the reason is the value of expressing your thoughts when it comes to making decisions. So many people don't have the networks to stimulate and challenge themselves to achieve what they are capable of.

Lastly....school and what it is IMO. It's about "learning" how to deal with stress. Life, is full of it, and learning how to overcome stressful situations, without "killing" yourself is the real value in school. The tools you develop to successfully complete what you started by going to college, are the tools that can make for a happy and fulfilling existence.

Oops, one more lastly, I don't think I read anywhere in this thread someone expressing their opinion that you should drop out of school.

Jordan - Very,very well said!

I will especially second what Jordan says about school teaching you how to deal with the life that comes after school. My degrees (B.S. and M.S.) are invaluable not so much that I use what I learned in classes every day, but I DO use the perseverance and pride that I learned through completing my degrees.

Jordan Glasser
11-13-2007, 09:43 PM
Jordan - Very,very well said!

I will especially second what Jordan says about school teaching you how to deal with the life that comes after school. My degrees (B.S. and M.S.) are invaluable not so much that I use what I learned in classes every day, but I DO use the perseverance and pride that I learned through completing my degrees.

Thank you allison!

One last thing about stress, influences and perception.
Today I was driving to a client's house for a training session, and during the trip a car merges into my lane at a snails pace. The result is I will now be stuck behind this slow moving vehicle for the next 10 kms. So here it is. How did I perceive this event. First thought was aggresive.....I think what an idiot, now I'll be crawling along for the next 10 minutes. Stressful outcome, because now I am up this cars arse, hoping that he/she will at least go the speed limit for the next 10 minutes. Second reaction, relieved, ahh, now I don't have to worry about getting a speeding ticket, I'll drive nice and slow, and save the environment a little by not flooring my vehicle up every hill.

There is no difference in the event, only how I perceived it. Sure, it was a very trivial part of my day, as is waiting in line at the grocery store......or the bank, or the library.....but it could have been a more concerning issue, like 2 last minute client cancellations in a row, or finding out that the space I am hoping to lease for my business didn't accept my offer.
In all of the events that happened to me today, (which are all true BTW) none of it stressed me out, or drained me mentally. I am proud to say this, I am happy that I know how to perceive things positively and not negatively. To see the challenge and opportunity behind the dips and valleys in life. I learned these skills in school, in growing up, and not by grades and what my GPA is. But, being in school was a great forum for me to develop these skills, make mistakes, and be able to pick up the pieces and learn from them.

I am posting this because there was a lot of concern toward how school and life can be very stressful. And yes, they sure are. But, so much of it is one's own perception. How you react to them is how you will carve your path in life. Sure, school can seem like a path to nowhere, or the wrong path, but it truly is a journey. Making mistakes in school are a lot easier to overcome then the mistakes made in the real world. Embrace what school has to offer, don't dwell on it's imperfections.

there, that's my 4 cents!

Susie Rosenberg
11-14-2007, 12:09 PM
I've been lurking here, trying to learn a few things about strength training and nutrition, but I can't help jumping in here because I think what I tell my own two high school kids might be helpful:

You don't have to figure out what you are going to do for the rest of your life at this stage. You only have to figure out what to do first.

I, myself, have had two career iterations, and am heading into a third: I started with a college degree in nursing, worked as an OB nurse for a while, then went back to college to fulfill premedical requirements. I've been a practicing physician for almost 25 years now, and I'm working on my third shift into teaching and coaching health and wellness instead of treating people with illnesses.

It takes a lot of pressure off if you understand that your first choices are not your last. Everything in young adulthood is about learning. Who you are, what fits, what doesn't. Some people know what they are meant to do, they have a calling. That's not true for most people in their teens. For most of us, there's trial and error and fine tuning.

I'm 52 years old, and if there's one thing I would like to have told my young self it is, "Don't be afraid. Be bold."

Susie

David Aguasca
11-14-2007, 12:58 PM
Heidi,

i dropped out of cornell for personal reasons, so don't make them your own. i was unhappy studying engineering, i didn't make any close friends in 3 semesters, and hated the academic pressure.

i'm now at plymouth state university, getting my degree in adventure education. my classes are much easier (and more enjoyable), i've already started making close friends, and i have time to climb and be outside instead of stressing out at the library in front of a book.

i REALLY agree with susie on this one. for now, my plans involve being a rock climbing guide and instructor. what i do after that depends on what happens between now and then. your first choice is not your last! (thanks, susie)

it IS possible to make it in this society WITHOUT a degree. i think it's much more difficult. it requires either that you lower your standard of living and accept working at a place like McDonalds, or you have to be an amazing entrepreneur. either one is difficult.

-Ross Hunt
11-14-2007, 03:38 PM
It's good that you two (Greg and Heidi) are devoting so much passionate interest to living a happy life and not being jumping straight into the way people are living theirs all around you.

Nevertheless, I think that you paint far too bleak a view of higher education and human society. Society is not so depraved that the only way to live a happy life is to try to get back to nature as much possible, and education is not everywhere so bent towards avarice that it doesn't exist for the sake of something higher.

You might consider looking into an undergraduate program at a small liberal arts college with a strong core program. I went to St. John's College (a small school in Maryland) primarily because when I visited it seemed like people there were all interested in reading books and talking about with the aim of finding out what the right way to live is, and carrying what they learned from those old books into practice. I went to other, more presitigious colleges (like Swarthmore), but I was turned off by exactly the phenomenon you're describing: Everyone already thought they knew exactly what they were going to do with their lives, and they weren't interested in questioning whether that was really conducive to their happiness. Lots of other small colleges have the same spirit as St. Johns; they are communities of people devoted to actively considering what the good life is.




As to the original question: The Warrior Diet sounds great in theory, but I like not disappearing when I turn sideways too much to follow it.

Garrett Smith
11-14-2007, 04:29 PM
David,
Your experience at Cornell sounds very much like mine at Northern Arizona U. I was in mechanical engineering, didn't make any new friends other than the ones I already knew from Tucson, and after I learned of engineer hours I decided it wasn't for me (also, there were absolutely NO women in my classes I was interested in meeting and I am definitely not the "bar pickup" type). I even tried pledging a fraternity--that didn't end up so well.

I came back down to the UA. I saw a book cover that was titled, "Do What You Love and the Money Will Follow". Didn't need to read the book, I got everything I needed off the title. So I asked myself what I loved to do. The only answer I found was weight training and nutrition (and reading about training and nutrition). I figured that was as good an answer as I needed. Looked in the school catalog to find a major that would facilitate this "love". Found exercise physiology as a major, ended up minoring in nutrition and chemistry. Needless to say, I didn't find the studying that hard (except in organic chem and biochem, those just don't make sense to me).

Took me a couple of years after graduating to find naturopathic medicine (or I should say it found me). I was working in a supplement store when my manager put a recruiting poster for my school (www.scnm.edu) on the side of the refrigerator. I was enrolled in a month.

Now I'm treating patients with nutrition, exercise, and lasers. Works for me (at least for now!).

A little ramble-y, but maybe someone will get something out of it.

Yael Grauer
11-15-2007, 05:58 AM
Ross, you went to St. John's? I went to Shimer! Love those Great Books schools. :D

Here's a recent NY Times article about us: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/04/education/edlife/shimer.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

-Ross Hunt
11-15-2007, 08:14 AM
Yael,

That school sounds awesome!

Sounds small, though... 450 students at St. John's felt claustrophobic; I can't imagine dealing with a campus of less than 100!

Yael Grauer
11-15-2007, 07:03 PM
Sounds small, though... 450 students at St. John's felt claustrophobic; I can't imagine dealing with a campus of less than 100!

Well, it was about 120 and VERY claustrophobic; that's why I escaped to Chicago every weekend. $5 Metra! I also hung out in little nearby towns. Now they're at IIT so that's not as much of a problem...

-Ross Hunt
11-15-2007, 07:15 PM
That would actually be much less claustrophobic than SJC, then; we were basically stuck in Annapolis with no one around except Johnnies, townies, and the occasional Midshipman from the Naval Academy down the street, and no public transportation to DC.

Greg Battaglia
11-15-2007, 07:26 PM
Roos, I could walk to Swarthmore College from my house. Also recently discovered that Steve Liberati and I aren't too far from one another. What a small world.

Yael Grauer
11-15-2007, 08:05 PM
That would actually be much less claustrophobic than SJC, then; we were basically stuck in Annapolis with no one around except Johnnies, townies, and the occasional Midshipman from the Naval Academy down the street, and no public transportation to DC.

But you know how heavy the reading load is! It was hard to escape. I am lucky to be able to read on a moving train, however, and my typing speed is ridiculous. I was one of the lucky few. I also had friends in Chicago who'd let me sleep on their floors.

I miss college. :( :mad:

Chris Lampe
11-16-2007, 07:30 AM
David,

I came back down to the UA. I saw a book cover that was titled, "Do What You Love and the Money Will Follow". Didn't need to read the book, I got everything I needed off the title.

What a great book! It's been a source of inspiration and comfort to me during many periods of career indecision in my life.

-Ross Hunt
11-16-2007, 08:16 AM
But you know how heavy the reading load is! It was hard to escape. I am lucky to be able to read on a moving train, however, and my typing speed is ridiculous. I was one of the lucky few. I also had friends in Chicago who'd let me sleep on their floors.

I miss college. :( :mad:

The reading load is almost as heavy for me now; I'm still in school... :rolleyes: I do miss certain aspects of college, to be sure.

Roos, I could walk to Swarthmore College from my house. Also recently discovered that Steve Liberati and I aren't too far from one another. What a small world.

Greg,

is Swarthmore where you're going? What do you think of it? I visited there when I was checking out colleges. I was extremely impressed with the professionalism and ambition of everyone there--everybody was really sure that they were going to make a difference in whatever field they had selected--but it seemed like nobody was interested in stopping and having conversations with each other.

Greg Battaglia
11-16-2007, 08:30 AM
No, I don't go there, it is just close to my house. I go to Neumann College.

Yael Grauer
11-16-2007, 11:59 AM
The reading load is almost as heavy for me now; I'm still in school... :rolleyes: I do miss certain aspects of college, to be sure.

I just miss primary sources. Everything I read these days it seems is a secondary source.

Yael Grauer
11-16-2007, 06:13 PM
As an educator, I really love Bloom's taxonomy (http://www.corrosion-doctors.org/Training/Bloom.htm). You want to get to the higher level Blooms so you can synthesize and evaluate information instead of just repeating or understanding it. This is higher order thinking that goes beyond learning how to complete a task and completing it but extends to the whys and hows.

Yael Grauer
11-16-2007, 06:14 PM
Oops, I meant this link: http://www.nwlink.com/~donclark/hrd/bloom.html

Chris Forbis
11-16-2007, 07:34 PM
Ross, you make a point that there is a higher purpose for college. And that purpose is to be trained to complete a task that helps society function. When you get trained and then fill this job, you help the society function. I guess it's everybody's job to be busy doing something to help the society. My role could range from cleaning up the pollution put off by greedy corporate-run factories, automobile exhaust, etc. to building bridges/constructing dams/laying out plans for buildings, etc. But the question is not am I able to do this, it is why would I want to do this with my life?

What is the point of cleaning up the mess of society? It doesn't help oneself. It only fixes or reduces a problem I didn't create and will only be remade as corporations become greedier.

I just don't see the point. I also am inspired most by nature. A simple life would be great for me. Maybe it isn't for others, but as long as I get my degree and mature from college, I can do what I want after college. My life can go pretty much anywhere.

Big secret... do something that you can be happy doing. Me, I teach. The job itself is fairly satisfying. I work 45 hour weeks, but take nothing home. I get 3 months off in the summer.

Find what works.

Yael Grauer
11-16-2007, 08:28 PM
The reason I mention Bloom's taxonomy is because I think the purpose of education goes beyond learning something so you can perform a task, or repeat a set of ideas, but getting to the point where you can actually synthesize and apply the knowledge towards new things, or actively analyze what you are being taught instead of just regurgitating useless information in a vacuum.

As far as wilderness skills, I really like some of the Wilderness Awareness School offerings. It's far from comprehensive but can be a really good start.

Yael Grauer
11-16-2007, 08:30 PM
Big secret... do something that you can be happy doing. Me, I teach. The job itself is fairly satisfying. I work 45 hour weeks, but take nothing home. I get 3 months off in the summer.

I'm working 60 to 80 hour weeks (contracted for 37.5) and only get 2 months off in the summer. :p

Chris Forbis
11-17-2007, 05:13 AM
I'm working 60 to 80 hour weeks (contracted for 37.5) and only get 2 months off in the summer. :p

You must like teaching more than I do. :) That sounds close to what my first year was like, actually. Not sure if I would still be doing it if I still had to invest that kind of time.

Yael Grauer
11-17-2007, 09:42 AM
You must like teaching more than I do. :) That sounds close to what my first year was like, actually. Not sure if I would still be doing it if I still had to invest that kind of time.

Yeah, I hear it gets better... Of course, I want to switch from middle to high which means I'll have to do the whole fun joy of curriculum mapping aligned with the standards and benchmarks at a high Bloom's level using 21st century skills all over again...not to mention gathering necessary material to teach when our textbooks only cover one of the three strands and the school rations out paper... :rolleyes:

Don't get me started!! I'm gonna have smoke coming out of my ears! At least there is UFC tonight.

-Ross Hunt
11-17-2007, 11:11 AM
Ross, you make a point that there is a higher purpose for college. And that purpose is to be trained to complete a task that helps society function. When you get trained and then fill this job, you help the society function. I guess it's everybody's job to be busy doing something to help the society. My role could range from cleaning up the pollution put off by greedy corporate-run factories, automobile exhaust, etc. to building bridges/constructing dams/laying out plans for buildings, etc. But the question is not am I able to do this, it is why would I want to do this with my life?

What is the point of cleaning up the mess of society? It doesn't help oneself. It only fixes or reduces a problem I didn't create and will only be remade as corporations become greedier.

I just don't see the point. I also am inspired most by nature. A simple life would be great for me. Maybe it isn't for others, but as long as I get my degree and mature from college, I can do what I want after college. My life can go pretty much anywhere.

It seems like you're splitting your options into 'education for responsible citizenship' on the one hand and 'simple life that has little to do with education' on the other. I don't think it's that simple. You're right to ask of the first option, 'What's in it for me?' But there is something in it for you in good education; good education can help you figure out how to live a better life. Old books have a lot of things to teach about happiness and the good life that are very hard to figure out on your own by trial, error, and nature. Take up Aristotle's Ethics, for instance; it starts with the question, 'What will make you happy?' and tries to answer it.

Yael Grauer
11-18-2007, 09:18 AM
I don't hold authors in high esteem just because they are famous, but I recognize that work that has stood the test of time has grappled with the types of important questions that people have been wrestling with for eternity. I like looking at different perspectives.

Have you read Your Money Or Your Life? Great book.

Anyone who says that money is not necessary, though, has never had to live without it.

I disagree that any paying job will give people decent, healthful food. I've been to a lot of houses where the only food available is prepackaged. There is ramen and junk like that, but no meat, no fruit or vegetables. I had to get a food box once during hard times and what I received was Tang and rice and beans.

It is true that muscles must be stressed to grow, but too much stress can be their downfall and the same goes with mental stress.

I think that happiness depends on serving others; that is the only thing that has made me truly happy.

-Ross Hunt
11-18-2007, 04:40 PM
I'm currently reading some of Aristotle's Ethics from a site provided by Stanford University. http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/aristotle-ethics/

I disagree with the statement: "[Aristotle] says, not that happiness is virtue, but that it is virtuous activity. Living well consists in doing something, not just being in a certain state or condition. It consists in those lifelong activities that actualize the virtues of the rational part of the soul."

But then the author of the article says that Aristotle wrote that virtue is to take on material accomplishments. I disagree. Looks, money, and fame do NOT give you happiness. They make life easier for you, but having an easy life is worse than having a hard life. It makes you weak. It makes you depend on your material accomplishments for support. You are, then, not a strong person. You are weakened because your life is easy.

Aristotle is just as biased as any other philosopher. You can't hold him in esteem because his name is famous. I think he coveted money and fame and that made him happy; he also lived in the greco-roman era where education and social status affected whether you ate stale bread and water or drank wine and ate many meals for your evening meal. He lived in the city. And in such an institution as he was in, one needed money and fame to survive or live happily, to merely be able to afford decent food.

Today, food is easily accessed. Just work at any paying job, and you can afford to eat decent, healthful food. Work out and eat healthy, copious amounts of food and you'll become healthy physically. Mentally, you must stress yourself to grow, just like you must stress your muscles for them to grow. And Emotionally, you must be stressed to advance emotionally. College provides much of this stress. But, unfortunately, after college, you get stuck in the rut of life unless you make the effort to constantly teach yourself new things, constantly work out, constantly make every experience a learning experience. A lot of people get this, but not all.

Happiness depends on your health/advancement physically, emotionally, mentally, and socially. Not on wealth, good looks, or status.

I don't think Aristotle disagrees with you about that. He implies that a certain amount of money is a prerequisite to happiness; I don't think anyone would disagree with this. The reason I bring him up is not because he's famous, but because he advances what I think may be missing from your account of happiness. It seems like you're understanding happiness as something that a person possesses in private, by themselves, outside of the context of society; and it seems like you're understanding it as a kind of perpetual increase of strength. Aristotle points out the way in which happiness is on the one hand inextricably bound up with all sorts of involvements--not just property, but more significantly family and friends--and that the kind of satisfaction that one seeks from honor or private moral self-perfection can ultimately prove unsatisfying in comparison to a more contemplative life.

Just another possibility to chew over; the Ethics is a good read.

-Ross Hunt
11-19-2007, 08:03 AM
Ross and Yael, I don't want to argue about philosophy really. I mean, we all have our set ideas and something like this cannot be resolved, due to our own experiences and differing opinions.

I do think, though, that it is better to experience life for yourself than depend on being told how to live it; though the Chinese proverbs are usually helpful in advancing your wisdom as well, don't get me wrong. ;)
...
I do agree with Greg though, that a simple life brings the least stress and most potential for happiness; I guess how you are made happy though depends on your personality. I'm very calm and nonchalant. To me, everything happens the way it should.

There is a third alternative to experience and doing as you're told though; you can try to think through how to live your life in a way that gets away from your own experience.

Obviously, the ultimate goal of this is to acquire some sort of knowledge that you can apply to your own experiences; but philosophy (as the attempt to better know your own particular experience by means of better knowing universals) is a good way to step back and get perspective sometimes.

You make a good point when you say that what you're happy with depends on your personality; there definitely seem to be irreducible natural differences between what will make one person or another happy.

-Ross Hunt
11-27-2007, 08:42 PM
That sounds very reasonable.