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Patrick Donnelly
11-30-2007, 03:37 PM
Today I did a 275x3x5 round of jump squats, and I managed (just barely leaving the ground) but I have some questions about them...

1. How should you land? On the forefoot? Should you fall back to the heel as you descend? Should your foot position change at all?
2. Is it normal to feel a bit of discomfort in the knees while doing this? This is the most weight I've ever loaded on my back (more than I can backsquat, by far).
3. Is it better to go heavy and just barely leave the ground, or to go a bit lighter and higher?
4. Does anyone else love how PVC pipe reps between sets feel like you're flying? http://img362.imageshack.us/img362/1091/iconwackobz7.gif

Patrick Donnelly
12-05-2007, 07:32 PM
Doodeedoodeedoo...

Anyone?

Jordan Glasser
12-05-2007, 08:38 PM
I started to reply to this message when you posted, but was unsure of your background...... I was confused as to why you would be jump squatting more then you are squatting. Then I saw the video demo that you were emulating and didn't post. But, having said all that, I would have said the following:

Nothing should hurt you. Period.
Start light, and work your way up. That will help you determine just how to land. Yes, the forefront of your foot should hit first, followed by the entire foot. The lowering should be like you are squatting, and should be a natural, and ingrained motion. I can only imagine the knee pain of squatting on your toes, if that's what you were eluding to asking if your heel should hit the ground.
The question of leaving the ground, or flying, it depends on what YOU need to work on, and why YOU are doing this exercise. Meaning, in your quest of increasing power (the purpose of jump squats?), you may need more focus on either speed, or strength. A jump squat that is heavy, is probably not going to help you in the speed department. Neither will speed be helped if the jump squat is heavy and slow.
http://www.performancemenu.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=22936
That's the video you are working from. That is a world class lifter, doing something specific to help their lifts. It's hard to say how you fit into that equation. I often do jump squats and use them with my clients, we use much lighter weights, and use a full ROM. Nothing at all what Aimee is doing in the video. And nothing that hurts the knees. Small note here, I don't do these with the majority of my clients, because a perfect squat is needed before I would have them jump and have weight on their back:eek:

Hope this gets you started......


Jordan

Allen Yeh
12-06-2007, 04:01 AM
Today I did a 275x3x5 round of jump squats, and I managed (just barely leaving the ground) but I have some questions about them...

1. How should you land? On the forefoot? Should you fall back to the heel as you descend? Should your foot position change at all?
2. Is it normal to feel a bit of discomfort in the knees while doing this? This is the most weight I've ever loaded on my back (more than I can backsquat, by far).
3. Is it better to go heavy and just barely leave the ground, or to go a bit lighter and higher?
4. Does anyone else love how PVC pipe reps between sets feel like you're flying? http://img362.imageshack.us/img362/1091/iconwackobz7.gif

1. Try to do an air jump squat and land on your heel. Not very comfortable is it? Don't do this with a load on your back either. You should land in the same position you jumped from.

2. No it's not normal.

3. The intent is to move the bar fast, even if the reality is that the bar doesn't move fast. The load is something that is dictated by what you are doing them for.

4. Um doesn't pvc sets of squats always feel like your flying? heh.

Garrett Smith
12-06-2007, 06:44 AM
If there's one exercise I think is designed to cause spinal problems, one you'll never catch me doing, it's weighted jump squats.

If my choice means I'll never be an Olympic athlete with a post-sport future of joint pain, so be it.

Patrick Donnelly
12-06-2007, 01:42 PM
Re: Jordan
I'm doing them to try to build speed, but doing them heavy with "the intent is to move the bar fast, even if the reality is that the bar doesn't move fast," as Allen said.

I land on my forefoot, then come back to the heel, and squat with my weight over the midfoot. I wouldn't ever imagine squatting with my heels off the ground. The "discomfort" really isn't pain, and it doesn't last after the workout, but it does feel a bit weird. I can't explain it.

Re: Allen
Well, the PVC pipe feels even lighter than normal. Hahah.

Re: Garrett
They are dangerous even when doing them correctly?



I was thinking of doing jumping pistols instead (unweighted, of course), but they are much harder to note progress with. Hm. Maybe they'd be a better choice anyway.

Garrett Smith
12-06-2007, 03:27 PM
Patrick,
As I'm not trying to set any world records nor do excessively high-risk activities in the pursuit of fitness, I think they are unnecessary.

I'm personally in pursuit of high-return, lower-risk exercises. I do think there is such a thing as "enough" strength for the things I want to do and the things I will unlikely encounter.

If someone can do jumping pistols, especially even moving further along Coach Sommers' progressions (pistol jumps to a box, pistol jumps for forward distance), I'd absolutely say that was enough strength.

Mainly I don't like the relatively large load spread over a relatively small area in jump squats, only to be combined with ballistic, gravity-fed movements.

Sure I think it works well in the short run to build explosiveness. I'm not in it for the short run, neither is my advice to others, so I would avoid it.

That being said, I think jumping squats or jumping pistols with weight added in the form of a well-fitting vest is much safer and smarter. Heck, just do Tabata squats with added weight, only going up in weight once 20 reps every round is reached. The X-Vest has a vest that goes up to 80#. That seems like enough to me.

Jordan Glasser
12-06-2007, 04:25 PM
I can't help but agree with Garrett's perspective on this one. Sound advice, and survive to train another day!

Patrick Donnelly
12-06-2007, 07:34 PM
That being said, I think jumping squats or jumping pistols with weight added in the form of a well-fitting vest is much safer and smarter. Heck, just do Tabata squats with added weight, only going up in weight once 20 reps every round is reached. The X-Vest has a vest that goes up to 80#. That seems like enough to me.

Luckily, I do have a well-fitting vest (MiR brand, 2-52#, cost $120 on e-Bay; gets my recommendations). Thanks for the advice.


Does anyone have a link to an article on Coach Sommers' pistol progressions?

Derek Simonds
12-07-2007, 03:27 AM
I have been playing with the vertical pistol jumps and they are a riot. I haven't read Coach Sommers reccomendations just kind of got into because of the benefit for Allen. Some of the guys were talking about a KB guy and how he could do jumping pistols onto a box with 2 KB's and I thought well that is pretty cool.

I think if you start doing them you will find it is pretty easy to tell how you are progressing. I started jumping unto a box about 12 inches and now I am up to a 20 inch box.

Allen Yeh
12-07-2007, 05:32 AM
Some of the guys were talking about a KB guy and how he could do jumping pistols onto a box with 2 KB's and I thought well that is pretty cool.


Steve Cotter

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcvHaRaqJNo

Garrett Smith
12-07-2007, 08:38 AM
Nice, Derek!

Now that I'm up to 15 alternating pistols per leg, maybe I'll start trying some box jump pistols in my gymnastics "moves" workout...

I decided today to change the kipping pullups in that workout to L-pullups...

Not exactly a detailed progression, but a couple of posts down Coach Sommers talks about his gymnastics pistol work... http://www.scribd.com/doc/123270/Gymnastic-Pistol-Progression

Patrick Donnelly
12-07-2007, 01:51 PM
The issue with jumping pistols for height is that instead of getting stronger and jumping higher, you may just be tucking your legs up higher. Plenty of people can do a 36" box jump, but few have a 36" vertical jump. I guess it's one of those things you have to measure by the "feel."

An even more important thing that occurred to me just now... I only have 12" of clearance above my head! Hahah. I guess these will have to be done outside.

Steven Low
12-07-2007, 06:42 PM
Why do you do jump shrugs instead?

Basically the same thing.. except you can help your oly lifts with this too. Easier to land cause if you land "bad" you can just drop the bar in front of you and move back.

I started working jumping pistols... was quite interesting actually. Those are real burners if you're doing max effort. Instead of burpee broad jumps how about burpee pistol jumps, eh? ;)

Garrett Smith
12-08-2007, 06:57 AM
Good suggestion on the jump shrugs, Steven.

I knew there had to be more of a reason I liked clean and snatch pulls so much...not quite jump shrugs, but close enough.

Jump shrugs with KBs are pretty brutal, with no worry about the bar/crotch interaction.

Mohamed F. El-Hewie
12-30-2007, 06:32 PM
Why do you do jump shrugs instead?

Basically the same thing.. except you can help your oly lifts with this too.
Jump shrugs are not the same as jump squat.

In jump shrugs, the lower surface of the articulating cartilage of the femur takes most of the shock during landing on extended knees.

That is not the case in jump squat, where the rear surface of the articulating cartilage of the femur absorbs the shock upon landing.

Jump shrugs could be more traumatic due to the heavier load and the constant use of extended knees in everyday life as well as in most of the phases of OL.

http://www.lift-4-life.com/phpbb/userpix/2_squat_2_1.jpg

Steven Low
12-30-2007, 08:34 PM
Um, no. The only difference between jump shrugs and jump squats landing (with a barbell) is that one has the mass centered above the shoulders (jumps squats) while the other has it centered below in the hands (jump shrugs) with good landing mechanics to absorb said force of course. By the time you hit the deep squat (if you're even going to deep squat), there should already be significant deceleration where the loading on the rear surface is minimal! It's not like with a jump squat were going to accelerate down to the bottom and stop to absorb all the force at the bottom, heh.

Heavier load is a valid point, but you can easily negatve that by dropping the loaded weight from the jump shrug while you can't with the jump squat. Plus, again you get the feel of actually doing oly lifts in the first place.

John Seiler
12-31-2007, 12:29 PM
Jumping up onto a box or platform to reduce your landing forces is an option with the weighted vest.

Steven Low
12-31-2007, 12:47 PM
Jumping up onto a box or platform to reduce your landing forces is an option with the weighted vest.

That's actually a better one.. but it helps if you're jumping up onto something relatively soft like a mat so you can't skin your shins..

Patrick Donnelly
12-31-2007, 04:36 PM
I'm just working the jumping pistols. I was amazed how poor my jump was when I first did it. I could only feel the acceleration really building up in the last 2-3 inches of the extension. Now I'm getting the power from a bit deeper, though I don't know how my height is improving.

James Evans
02-28-2008, 03:12 PM
Having re-read this earlier I tried some variations tonight. Thought they were fun as much as anything.

Doesn't the King of Careful Lifting, Mike Boyle, advocate jump squats as a safe and easy to coach alternative to the Olympic lifts? Or was that before he fell for the clean grip powersnatch?

I like Boyle by the way but I know his approach is always evolving.

Allen Yeh
02-29-2008, 02:44 AM
clean grip powersnatch?


I've tried that a few times and I just didn't care for it much. It felt really awkward especially since I was fighting to do it as a snatch instead of instinctively cleaning it with that grip.

Jump squats I've done with heavy, mid-weight and unweighted. I don't know how much I like them programmed in there for heavy weight. I prefer doing it unweighted as part of a circuit or something.

Ever do Alwyn Cosgroves leg finisher? That's always fun. I think it's like 20 seconds jump squats, 20 seconds squats, 20 seconds squat with a pause at the bottom, and then 20 second hold...rest 30 seconds? and then repeat. Fun stuff.

James Evans
02-29-2008, 02:50 AM
I actually prefer them with the clean grip. Absolutely no way I could OHS deeply like that though without some serious work.

Read about the leg finisher but never actually done them. Imagine that's quite a burn.