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Brad Davis
12-17-2007, 07:30 AM
Hello all, I have a question that I'm hoping you guys will be able to help with.

I've been IFing for about 4 weeks (90%+ Paleo, 1-7pm feeding window) and it was going very well for 3 weeks and I'm having a bit of trouble now.

Starting about a week ago, I stepped up my number of workouts and I have to do these at fairly random times to fit around family and work. I workout at any time between 10am and 11pm-midnight or later. Yeah, crazy I know, but that's the way it goes. I do a CF-like program (actually Ross Enamait's Never Gymless 50 day program, more or less), so am doing strength work 2-3 days/week and metcon 2-3 days/week. I sit on my butt doing research for almost all other waking hours.

The problem is that probably over half of my workouts take place after my feeding window. I've tried going without a post-WO meal, but feel like TOTAL crud after that and until after I eat the next day. I've also noticed that my soreness and fatigue hangs around much longer if I do this. This isn't a good plan, so I've resorted to eating a medium sized post-WO meal, regardless of whether it's after my normal window. I feel ok when I do this and can make it to my next feeding window with no real problems.

Is it totally worthless to try to IF, but 3-4 days/week eat something that cuts the fast down to 12 hours or so?

Does one actually get used to not eating a post-WO meal?

So what's the best plan here? Forcing my workouts to be before or during any likely feeding window is not an option.

Advice would be greatly appreciated.

Mike ODonnell
12-17-2007, 08:33 AM
IF doesnt hasnt to be daily...hence the whole "intermittent" part of it.

Are you bonking after BOTH metcon and ME type workouts? Or just the metcons?...my guess would be that. Do you feel fine the next day after a night after a late metcon with no pwo feeding? Find out the optimal energy level and schedule....it may be metcons only at night....or during the day.....depending on how you schedule your eating.

You could also cycle IF to use only on ME days...and eat all day on metcons for better recovery....or the other way around depending on how you feel and recover.

Another thing is working out too much and not eating enough to recovery...if you feel your performance going down...try a week at 50% or take it off completely...use IF and see how great your performance will be the following week.

Lots of options...just need to change things up to see what works best for you.

Brad Davis
12-17-2007, 10:13 AM
Thanks Mike.

As you suspected, I'd say I feel much worse after a metcon workout without post-WO than after ME without post-WO meal. I think ME still causes problems, though, but I'm less sure.

I think I'm eating enough, but I am not sure. I logged it a few times lately and I was around 2200 calories, 20% carbs / 30% protein / 50% fat although I wasn't trying for any set macro ratios. (36.8 YO, 5'-8", 180 lb, 10-12% BF). Weight holding stable.

Do you anticipate that the following will provide most of the benefits of normal IF?

Try for 1-7pm feeding window every day. On the 3-4 days/week that I do a late night WO, go ahead and eat a 300-400 calorie post-WO meal. On most of those days, I'd probably fast about 13 hours assuming a post-WO meal at midnight. That puts me at fasting 18 hours and 13 hours about half & half.

Thanks again.
DBD

Garrett Smith
12-17-2007, 11:18 AM
Brad,
Is there *any* regularity to your workout times, ie. on Mondays does it usually occur at "x" time, while Tuesday is a different time, same goes for Wed., or is it *totally* random?

How long before a workout do you know when the workout will take place? 24 hours? 12 hours? 1 hour?

Is it totally worthless to try to IF, but 3-4 days/week eat something that cuts the fast down to 12 hours or so?

Does one actually get used to not eating a post-WO meal?

Any amount of IFing is beneficial, IMO. If you have some "short" fast days, you may try adding 1 or 2 "long" fast days (20+ hours).

As for not having an immediate PWO feed, I almost never have PWO nutrition unless I really notice my recovery tanking, then I'll either have some apples & almond butter or 1-2 Larabars (dried fruit and nuts). I've gotten to the point now where I don't really want to eat for several hours after I workout. I'm doing the CA WOD, so that included ME and metcon, often back-to-back.

Brad Davis
12-17-2007, 11:54 AM
...
Is there *any* regularity to your workout times, ie. on Mondays does it usually occur at "x" time, while Tuesday is a different time, same goes for Wed., or is it *totally* random?

How long before a workout do you know when the workout will take place? 24 hours? 12 hours? 1 hour?....

Thanks for the reply, Dr. G.

There's not really any regularity. I alternate strength and conditioning workouts and go approximately 4 on, 1 off, which is one of Ross' typical schemes. If I feel beat-up, I'll take a day off--that's how I judge it.

Your second question is astute and really gets to the issue. I'd say I have an idea when I'll exercise 2-3 hours max before the workout. If it doesn't happen during the day, then it'll happen after everybody goes to sleep--this is at least half the time.

Like a lot of folks, I have a weird and crazy schedule. I've tried forcing workouts into specific parts of the day, but I end up missing a lot of them.

I might try harder to avoid post-WO meals, starting with ME days. Perhaps this is something else to make my body adapt to.

Mike ODonnell
12-17-2007, 12:35 PM
Do you anticipate that the following will provide most of the benefits of normal IF?

If I ever find a definition what a normal IF is I will let you know! Everyone has their own methods...different hours....it really is so individualistic to your workout/performance needs and more importantly recovery. Don't focus on the need to IF every day in order to get any benefit, as many on here probably get results on just a couple times a week. Obviously the more you workout....the more you will need to eat to recover.

Brad Davis
12-17-2007, 12:50 PM
Thanks Mike and Dr. G.

I think I'll shoot for 1-7pm each day, knowing that I'll probably bust that at times, especially after metcon workouts. I'll try to turn some of those 1-7pm into 3-7pm and try harder to skip the post-WO meal after ME workouts to see if that really causes a problem.

Garrett Smith
12-17-2007, 01:59 PM
For your schedule, being fairly irregular, I'd say try to make a 12-hour fast the norm (that's pretty easy as it's just dinner-to-breakfast). When you see that your schedule allows it, or it just works out that way, push it to a longer fast.

As for the PWO nutrition, I'd suggest moving it away gradually, rather than all at once. Like over a week or two.

Also, I'm assuming you're on a relatively low-carb Paleo scheme. If you're not, that could be the whole issue. Too many carbs at the wrong time make IF of any sort, or a lack of PWO nutrition, really tough.

Eva Claire Synkowski
12-17-2007, 05:08 PM
i also often dont have pwo nutition, but i don't start the fast so far ahead of sleeping either. i guess my only question is, are you able to sleep post late night workout, when the fast began at say, 7 pm?

so another suggestion i would have is possibly just shift your feed window on late wo days. is that any option? for example, eat 4 pm - 12 midnight, with minimal cals pwo. the only reason i suggest that is because if i start my fast too many hours ahead of sleeping (not to mention also working out after beginning the fast), im up all night in that "alert" IF state... which is miserable.

days when you work out earlier, you can start the fast earlier than midnight to get some longer than 16 hr fasts in.

Brad Davis
12-18-2007, 10:45 PM
Thanks Eva.

i also often dont have pwo nutition, but i don't start the fast so far ahead of sleeping either. i guess my only question is, are you able to sleep post late night workout, when the fast began at say, 7 pm?

Yeah, no problem. I'm usually out in no time. The other night, I did 100 burpees and was asleep probably within 15 min. I almost never get more than 6 hours of sleep, so am usually pretty sleepy.


so another suggestion i would have is possibly just shift your feed window on late wo days. is that any option? ....
I don't know because I often don't know I'm going to workout late until late in the evening when I see that my workout isn't going to happen any other way. Tonight's a great example, BTW. Did strength + a conditioning finisher from 12:30-1:30. No time during the day.

Brad Davis
01-01-2008, 06:39 PM
Thanks again for the replies.

Since the thread ran its course, I've been trying to simply avoid post-WO food if the workout is outside my feeding window. I have only been doing strength workouts at those times and don't seem to be having any problems.

Being a (former, perhaps) believer in post-WO nutrition, I think I was probably feeling weak and hungry because I was *expecting* to feel weak and hungry.

Everything seems fine now--cranking right along with my 1-7pm window 5-6 days/week.

Allen Yeh
01-02-2008, 03:33 AM
Being a (former, perhaps) believer in post-WO nutrition, I think I was probably feeling weak and hungry because I was *expecting* to feel weak and hungry.

Being in that boat I've been trying to get myself out of that habit the last few weeks. It's hard to break years and years of doing the PWO thing though.

Garrett Smith
01-02-2008, 08:54 AM
Ah, the good old placebo effect. Expect it and get it!

Brad Davis
01-11-2008, 09:52 PM
A quick follow-up question:

I've read that it's good to eat post-WO to decrease cortisol levels.

Why should we not be concerned about this if we IF, workout outside the feeding window, and wait many hours before eating? For example, several of my workouts lately have been at 11-12 at night and I didn't eat until 1-2pm the next day.

Actually, why should we IFers not be concerned about cortisol in general (as compared to folks who eat normally)? My limited understanding is that cortisol levels are kept under control partly by regular eating.