PDA

View Full Version : Interesting quote


Ari Kestler
12-18-2007, 02:14 PM
The quote is taken out of context (learning about autism/adhd/drug abuse) but I thought it was pretty relevant to what we think about and discuss here in our efforts to improve our health and longevity...

"genetics loads the gun, but environment pulls the trigger"

I realize this is pretty random, I just thought someone out there might enjoy it.

Steven Low
12-18-2007, 06:26 PM
Good quote. Totally true.

Well, unless you just have really bad genetics.. like huntingtons. Then you're just screwed.

Steve Liberati
12-19-2007, 04:41 AM
I like it. Similar quote from an old Native American found in Lights Out, "Change the environment and the environment changes you."

Unforunately most people don't want to hear it. Tell that quote to a parent who has a child with autism and see their reaction. Sure it won't be very well-recieved. But as we know, sometimes the truth hurts and we can only duck it for so long.

Mike ODonnell
12-19-2007, 07:42 AM
sometimes the truth hurts and we can only duck it for so long.

True understanding can only come after enough pain for one want to see it....unfortunately that's how it usually is.....Last thing people want to hear is anything is their fault...so why not blame something we can not control like genetics. Or doctors who really have no answers on how to help anyone because they were taught just how to treat symptoms not find route causes. Sad. People need to Wake Up! But as we all know after a long night out partying....waking up is not easy!

Derek Simonds
12-19-2007, 09:05 AM
Totally random but totally valid. Like Mike said it is tough for people to deal with the possibility that their actions could have consequences.

Scott Kustes
12-19-2007, 09:52 AM
Similar to cancer, diabetes, and most other modern diseases. Few people are willing to hear or admit that their own actions caused their situation. Everyone blames their genes, not their body's expression of those genes (genotype vs phenotype).

I heard one guy at work, when discussing stem cells, say "It would be good for diabetics. Not Type 2s like me, we brought it on ourselves. But Type 1s need it." It was refreshing to hear someone own their problems.

Ari Kestler
12-19-2007, 01:58 PM
Or doctors who really have no answers on how to help anyone because they were taught just how to treat symptoms not find route causes. Sad.

Speaking from personal experience (I'm currently a 2nd year medical student), doctors do learn to treat both symptoms and causes. There is quite a bit of bashing and hate for the medical community between these boards and crossfit. Yes, there are problems in the medical system and care. No one has all of the solutions, but to think that doctors just blindly prescribe drugs to treat symptoms throwing all caution to the wind about underlying causes is ridiculous.

Mike ODonnell
12-19-2007, 02:15 PM
Speaking from personal experience (I'm currently a 2nd year medical student), doctors do learn to treat both symptoms and causes. There is quite a bit of bashing and hate for the medical community between these boards and crossfit. Yes, there are problems in the medical system and care. No one has all of the solutions, but to think that doctors just blindly prescribe drugs to treat symptoms throwing all caution to the wind about underlying causes is ridiculous.

No hate...as I know plenty of great doctors who use medications as a last resort and try to get people on a better lifestyle exercise and nutrition program. I feel for doctors as I know they want what is best for people....yet the medical system is more a business and most are overworked and only have a few minutes to treat someone so they just hope to calm the symptoms so the person feels better. Unfortunately I have no universal answer except for people to wake up and take personal responsibility for their own actions....because the general public is just too dependent on going to get some pill for a quick fix which will not in most cases do anything to solve their problem in the first place.

Same can be said for the whole fitness industry (specifically supplements). If a person who is overweight can believe there is a magic fat burning pill...then how the hell do you get them motivated enough to go do exercise and learn about what they should be eating? Instead they keep spending money on pills that do nothing and wonder why they do not look like the celebrity on the bottle as they are shoving cheesecake down their throat while watching 4 hours of TV a night.

Helping people long term to take responsibility is not a money maker....advertising and dishing out a supposed quick fix is a billion dollar industry.

Garrett Smith
12-20-2007, 06:10 AM
Ari,
Most doctors are, at the core, interested in "treating the cause". Med students are at the top of that list. By your presence on this board, you are more interested in it than most.

However, by the failure of conventional medicine to teach MDs even basic nutrition (last I heard, 1 semester was typically offered, and that was usually as an elective) and exercise, they are not going anywhere near treating the cause of diseases today. I will say that even naturopathic schools are underemphasizing diet and don't really understand what proper exercise is.

If you hold onto the philosophy and approach you appear to have by being here all the way through your schooling and residency, you will be one of the rare MDs who is really making a difference, and I applaud that.

Ari Kestler
12-20-2007, 10:08 AM
Thanks Dr. G. You are absolutely right about the abysmal nutrition education we receive. To the best of my knowledge I've only had a handful of lectures, each one involved me raising my hand questioning the "food pyramid" . Most just ignored my questions, others just said a paleo like diet would have too few carbs and be potentially harmful. I smirked at that one. It's ironic that we don't get that education considering it is the root of most medical problems faced in an industrialized nation, but after coming off a pretty intense semester, I can understand how nutrition easily gets lost among micro, bacterio., viro. path, etc... It's impressive enough that they managed to condense medical school to only 4 years as is...

Both of you are right and as much as we try and help, I think it will ultimately come down to people taking responsibility for their own health. Unfortunately, it isn't a top priority in many people's lives, I find it incredibly ironic. I'm just happy that I woke up one day and decided today would be the day that I get my health in order, I can't understand how more people haven't had this realization. Especially the incredibly smart ones with the necessary resources.

Paul Findley
12-20-2007, 03:26 PM
No doubt. I think we should start looking for doctors based on the health and wellness of the doctor. Think of other professions: Would you want a plumber that could not fix his own toilet? I suspect there are not enough to go around, healthy doctors I mean, I don't mean to bash on plumbers.

I just made myself go in for a checkup. Turns out I am 1 year older than my Dr. He was like, "what do you do? Man, I got to start working out", then he started talking about good genetics etc. I spared him the lecture, I wanted to get out of there.

Jared Buffie
12-20-2007, 05:15 PM
The problem isn't as much with the MDs as it is with the drug companies. They are the ones that are teaching us (and MDs though CE courses) that health comes from drugs, rather than the truth that health and healing come from within. They also fund the research being done at most med schools, and Ari, I bet they've already bought you lunch more than once or twice.

The underlying reason why people don't take responsibility for their health is when they watch TV and read magazines, they are led to believe they can ignore their health forever and a little pill will bail them out in the long run. People literally think that there is a cure for cancer or heart disease on the horizon, and choose to put their eggs in that basket instead of avoiding those diseases in the fist place.

Ari, you will be in a position to be a beacon to those people. It's a noble cause, and one I've dedicated my life to (as have others on this board).

Paul Findley
12-20-2007, 09:52 PM
Yea, I don't mean to be too harsh on my M.D. Fact is, he is people just like the rest of us. I am not sure we can simply blame the drug companies. They are in business to give us what we want, but by no means blameless due to their efforts to modify what we want, Dr and patient alike.

I need to find a divergent doc. Our Ped. is like this, she will write is a script with a discussion like, "See if you can keep the fever down, but if you get worried, then you will be able to quickly fill this".

Garrett Smith
12-21-2007, 05:38 AM
Paul,
The funniest thing about a fever is that the body WANTS the temperature higher. Then we go and suppress it and wonder why we have the chronic latent/occult infections, when we could have just let the body burn it off in the first place!

I do know that my efforts to keep myself healthy and fit have now made it relatively easy for me to convert medical patients into exercise clients!

Jared Buffie
12-21-2007, 01:12 PM
Paul.. try this:

Don't go to an MD for anything for a year - nobody in your family.

You will find that your body relearns how to fend for itself. I have not been to an MD for 10 years (then it was for re constructive shoulder surgery).

My kids (4 and 2) have never been to a pediatrician. Neither one have ever had an ear infection. They've each had diarrhea/vomit once, and they both had roseola.

Imagine that.. kids without vaccines or antibiotics, and they're the healthiest ones we know!

Garrett Smith
12-21-2007, 03:02 PM
Jared,
Your recommendation may seem pretty far out there to some, however, check this out, from http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/320/7249/1561:

Doctors' strike in Israel may be good for health

Judy Siegel-Itzkovich , Jerusalem

Industrial action by doctors in Israel seems to be good for their patients' health. Death rates have dropped considerably in most of the country since physicians in public hospitals implemented a programme of sanctions three months ago, according to a survey of burial societies.

The Israel Medical Association began the action on 9 March to protest against the treasury's proposed imposition of a new four year wage contract for doctors. Since then, hundreds of thousands of visits to outpatient clinics have been cancelled or postponed along with tens of thousands of elective operations. Public hospitals, which provide the vast majority of secondary and tertiary medical care, have kept their emergency rooms, dialysis units, oncology departments, obstetric and neonatal departments, and other vital facilities working normally during the industrial action.

In the absence of official figures, the Jerusalem Post surveyed non-profit making Jewish burial societies, which perform funerals for the vast majority of Israelis, to find out whether the industrial action was affecting deaths in the country.

"The number of funerals we have performed has fallen drastically," said Hananya Shahor, the veteran director of Jerusalem's Kehilat Yerushalayim burial society. "This month, there were only 93 funerals compared with 153 in May 1999, 133 in the same month in 1998, and 139 in May 1997," he said. The society handles 55% of all deaths in the Jerusalem metropolitan area. Last April, there were only 130 deaths compared with 150 or more in previous Aprils. "I can't explain why," said Mr Shahor.

Meir Adler, manager of the Shamgar Funeral Parlour, which buries most other residents of Jerusalem, declared with much more certainty: "There definitely is a connection between the doctors' sanctions and fewer deaths. We saw the same thing in 1983 [when the Israel Medical Association applied sanctions for four and a half months]."

Ouch.

Ari Kestler
12-22-2007, 06:57 AM
Paul.. try this:

Don't go to an MD for anything for a year - nobody in your family.

You will find that your body relearns how to fend for itself. I have not been to an MD for 10 years (then it was for re constructive shoulder surgery).

My kids (4 and 2) have never been to a pediatrician. Neither one have ever had an ear infection. They've each had diarrhea/vomit once, and they both had roseola.

Imagine that.. kids without vaccines or antibiotics, and they're the healthiest ones we know!


Can't really condone not taking your kids to the pediatrician and getting them vaccinated for all kinds of lovely bugs. I suppose everyone has their braking point. I'll buy into paleo being good, usda food pyramid bad, but the MMR vaccine? Hep vaccines? Tetanus shots? Come on guys... You do not want your kids to get any of these bugs... I understand letting the body fight an infection and I'll be the last one to take medications but this is just stupid...

Mike ODonnell
12-22-2007, 07:17 AM
I have no kids....so of course this is probably not the same as a parent would feel...but I would rather condone people who feed their kids crap and sugar all day long...than a person feeding their kid good food and not getting them vaccines. Which is the greater harm?

PS I haven't seen a doctor since 1989 when I needed a physical for college. (other than a couple ER visits for stitches and concusions). That includes no visits for antibiotics if I am sick and no flu shots. But then again....can't really prove I am doing the right thing until I figure out when I am supposed to kick the bucket...and that I will only know at the last second. But so far....so good. Maybe it's the stress free life of not having someone telling me I am going to die of something that has kept me going this long!

Jared Buffie
12-22-2007, 08:26 AM
like I said, look at the results...

Hep B: I don't think my 2 and 4 year olds will sharing needles and having unprotected sex for a while.

Tetanus: Ask any doc when the last time they saw a case of tetanus

Measles/mumps: completely benign childhood diseases that actually STRENGTHEN the immune system

I think there was another thread that was out there about vaccines... so I won't get into it, except to say that I guarantee you I have done WAY more research on the topic and am 100% positive I did the best thing for my kids. I've heard all the reasons to do it, and still chose not to.

Ari, eat up the dogma... love it.. let it become a part of you. Do without questioning, become the status quo. That way you'll have all the respect and prestige of your peers, which is why (at least in part) that you have chosen the profession you have. Put on that white coat, feel the ego rise, and call someone's ideas stupid, just because they don't conform to what you've bought into. Your arrogance, even as a second year med student, is astonishing. Can't wait to see you after a couple of years in practice.

There is more than one opinion on how go be healthy. I see the medical model, and every day I see the consequences people have brought on themselves by living in it.

Garrett Smith
12-22-2007, 11:22 AM
As far as vaccines and science go, they're not on the same page at all.

There has never, ever, to anyone's knowledge, been a long-term study done comparing disease rates of vaccinated children versus unvaccinated children. Until there is definitive research showing first that vaccines are SAFE (first do no harm), which they are absolutely NOT until all thimerosal (seriously, why is mercury regarded everywhere as toxic except in a needle?) is removed, then proving that they are actually EFFECTIVE (the gold standard studies have NEVER been done), I'll be one of the "stupid" ones that passes on them, for me and my children.

That should say enough from my end. Ari and Jared, let's not go where this is going, or I'm sure Greg will kill the thread. I will add this--every medical student is idealistic and passionate (which can be interpreted as arrogance to some), one has to be to go into the field. Geez, you should see naturopathic students...

Jared Buffie
12-22-2007, 11:34 AM
Hey, I'm done on this one. Said my piece.

Garrett, you're like me. People end up in your practice because the medical field has failed them, and you get them well. I see it hundreds of times a week. So excuse me for not taking sh*t from a second year med student.

Passionate and idealistic mean nothing to me. Nazis were passionate and idealistic.

Ari Kestler
01-04-2008, 07:42 AM
Jared,

I suppose I just don't see the downside of vaccinating your kids? Is their one?

It seems like a lot of you think doctors and the field of medicine have put us in our current state of health and living (increasing incidence of CAD, high BP, diabetes, cancer, etc...), I think we have no one to blame but ourselves. I find it hilarious that you view doctors as the enemy. It makes no logical sense. To each his own.

Mike ODonnell
01-04-2008, 08:58 AM
True, you can blame that no one takes the personal responsibility to learn everything about their own health and make their own choices on what they do with their life. I don't blame doctors per say, but people's blind faith in them being the answer and will do anything without questioning what is going on. Much like any profession, I am sure there are great doctors and ones paid off by pharma reps. Doctors are not the enemy, people's blind faith in them is. Question everything, the only truth is the one you decide on...not what is told, as that is just someone else's opinion from some point and time.

I could blame more people's blind faith in the FDA and food pyramid and any processed food that some company calls "healthy"...as that has lead us down a road of skyrocketing disease and obesity.

John Alston
01-04-2008, 09:10 AM
As far as vaccines and science go, they're not on the same page at all.
...
There has never, ever, to anyone's knowledge, been a long-term study done comparing disease rates of vaccinated children versus unvaccinated children.

Can I just say... polio?
My 2 cents.

John Alston
01-11-2008, 10:08 AM
Vaccine-Autism Panic Debunked Yet Again by New Study
For years, the scientific evidence has been accumulating. The latest, published this week, once again showed that thimerosal, a mercury-based preservative long used in childhood vaccines, does not cause the neurological disorders associated with the U.S. autism epidemic.

In fact, scientists at the California Department of Public Health demonstrated that in the years since nearly all thimerosal was removed from vaccines in 2001, the rate of autism has continued to rise there. Had thimerosal been the culprit, those numbers should have decreased.

More... http://reason.com/blog/show/124346.html

Scott Kustes
01-11-2008, 12:13 PM
Just a thought...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autism
Underdiagnosis and overdiagnosis are problems in marginal cases, and much of the recent increase in the number of reported ASD cases is likely due to changes in diagnostic practices.

Another thought is that perhaps the diagnoses that are currently happening are pre-2001 vaccinations...not sure how long it takes for the illness to actually be diagnosed.

Don't know one way or the other...just throwing out some possibilities.

John Alston
01-16-2008, 11:19 AM
http://www.apologia.com/vaccines/vac_effective.html

More evidence arguing in favor of the effectiveness of vaccination.