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Mike ODonnell
01-10-2008, 10:00 AM
Intersting discussion on BCAAs that isn't biased to promote selling specific products...(tnation anyone?).

http://www.mindandmuscle.net/articles/jamie-hale/BCAA-roundtable

I still like the idea of some BCAA pre workout and maybe during for longer sustained activites (over 1 hour)....when I can afford to get some. Of course money is best spend on good whole protein sources first...this I would say is probably one of the few supplements I would consider spending any money on. It may only give you that extra 5% of results, but for some it may be the performance and recovery edge they need in serious competition. Again...if you have the extra money to spare.

Derek Simonds
01-10-2008, 03:23 PM
A friend of mine asked what kind of supplements I was taking and I told him I have narrowed it down to fish oil from Dr. G and BCAA's.

I still have the occasional protein shake when I can't get a good meal in but they are not part of my plan anymore. I stopped taking creatine when I ran out a couple of months ago and haven't really noticed a difference.

Garrett Smith
01-10-2008, 04:46 PM
I'm currently resuming some BCAA and creatine supplementation myself. Nothing crazy, 4g creatine and 6g BCAAs a day.

Eric Jones
01-11-2008, 12:01 AM
Out of curiosity, on what kind of schedule? Post workout, before bed...

Garrett Smith
01-11-2008, 05:31 AM
I'm playing with the IF concept a bit. Normally I don't eat in the AM, having only a late lunch and dinner on the weekdays (now throwing in a 24-hour fast one day a week). I think the crux of IF benefits lies in the intermittent *calorie* intake, not necessarily on a lack of micronutrient supplementation during the fasting time.

I'm taking the creatine and BCAAs on a very empty stomach in the morning in my herbal tea, with various other minerals, some lipoic acid, and the asparagus extract (5g powder extracted from 1/2 pound of organic asparagus), after my coffee. So, tons of nutrition with only a *tiny* handful of calories. The exact opposite of what most SAD people are getting.

I understand IF purists may not like it, but it's what I'm testing out. Someone posted a study link a while back about rats and adding leucine+phenylalanine to their IF protocol and noting improved body comp and mass gain. So I'm trying something "similar" with creatine and BCAAs.

All of my other supplements (including fish oil and CLO) are taken with my big dinner.

Dave Paton
01-14-2008, 12:30 PM
Dr. G,

What fish oil do you recommend?

Garrett Smith
01-14-2008, 01:50 PM
Dave,
I use a physician-only brand of fish oil, Eicosamax by ProThera (http://protherainc.com/prod/proddetail.asp?id=EMX120).

Super high quality and potency. PM me or call my office if you want to get some.

sarena kopciel
01-14-2008, 06:30 PM
Dr. G,

What fish oil do you recommend?

Its great I have been using it for months now. Liquid and all and no fishy taste or fish burbs either!!

Arden Cogar Jr.
01-15-2008, 03:25 PM
I take about 10g of BCAA's both before and after my training sessions.

I find that since I've started doing it, I feel better longer. If that makes any sense?

I also use Bodyquick pre workout as well.

And as soon as I take the 10g of BCAA's pwo, I hammer back a shake with app 30 grams of protein and 30 grams of simple carbs. That shake also includes about 5 to 10 gram of glutamine and a little bit of creatine.

Then 30 minutes later, I take another shake with about 40gram of protein and 10 more grams of glutamine. No carbs.

Then about an hour later, I have a whole meal heavy on the protein (about 25 to 30 grams).

I've found this regimen has really helped me a lot over the past two years. Doing this and making some overall life changes (size of meals mainly) has resulted in me getting leaner (losing 20 pounds) without losing much muscle mass at all.

All the best,
Arden

Derek Simonds
01-15-2008, 04:57 PM
Arden that is some serious PWO regimentation.

BTW welcome to the PM forums.

Arden Cogar Jr.
01-15-2008, 05:24 PM
Thanks Derek,
I'm coming from a old bodybuilding background. Believe it or not, I'm taking a lot less supplements these days than I did 5 years ago. My staples are fishoil, flaxseed oil, cla, and joint stuff. I'm not a young man anymore.

Thanks for the invite. After reading Greg's posts on xfit, I had to get over here and learn. I'm very very interested in Oly lifting even though I doubt I'll ever compete. I just to make myself a better athlete for my sport.

All the best,
Arden

Kevin Perry
01-15-2008, 08:20 PM
Are the BCAA's you guys are taking dissolve easily in the drinks you put them in? The kind I have does not dissolve well and gives the drinks a very (for lack of a better word) nutty taste.

Derek Simonds
01-16-2008, 03:35 AM
Kevin,

Here is what Greg reccomends. http://www.performancemenu.com/daily/index.php?show=daily&dailyID=54

I run out and forget to order and end up picking up whatever the GNC has up the street from my house. I really need to order 2 at a time so I am always ahead. Good stuff.

Allen Yeh
01-16-2008, 08:59 AM
Arden that is some serious PWO regimentation.

BTW welcome to the PM forums.

Man someone must have left the backdoor open again!

More likely Arden chopped his way through. Derek, this guy outdoes every single Oly PR I have when he's just "practicing" and learning the lifts.

Oh yeah and welcome to the PM forums.

Arden Cogar Jr.
01-16-2008, 11:07 AM
Man someone must have left the backdoor open again!

More likely Arden chopped his way through. Derek, this guy outdoes every single Oly PR I have when he's just "practicing" and learning the lifts.

Oh yeah and welcome to the PM forums.

c'mon Allen, :D In reality, I must outweigh you by a good 80 pounds. I do have to admit that I'm tired of "reverse power curling" and "straight legged straight armed front raises overhead." The form will come. I hope. Another reason I'm here. Looks awesome. I just hope I can contribute.

Thanks so much for the kind words.

All the best,
Arden

Derek Simonds
01-17-2008, 07:57 AM
Man someone must have left the backdoor open again!

More likely Arden chopped his way through. Derek, this guy outdoes every single Oly PR I have when he's just "practicing" and learning the lifts.

Oh yeah and welcome to the PM forums.

I am with you Allen. I have followed Arden not only on the xFit boards but in his sport as well for many years.

I was coaching a buddy of mine (who happens to be silly strong) on the C&J and I had 95 LB's on the bar and that is exactly what he did he bent over stood up, reverse curled and pressed. He looked at me and said that really isn't too complicated. Oh well I tried.

Mike ODonnell
01-17-2008, 08:08 AM
he bent over stood up, reverse curled and pressed. He looked at me and said that really isn't too complicated. Oh well I tried.

Wait...wait....wait....hold on....let me get this straight.....how do I put it....ummmmm.....there's another way to do that? Damn......my world has just been turned upside down.

Ari Kestler
05-18-2008, 11:51 AM
I'm playing with the IF concept a bit. Normally I don't eat in the AM, having only a late lunch and dinner on the weekdays (now throwing in a 24-hour fast one day a week). I think the crux of IF benefits lies in the intermittent *calorie* intake, not necessarily on a lack of micronutrient supplementation during the fasting time.

I'm taking the creatine and BCAAs on a very empty stomach in the morning in my herbal tea, with various other minerals, some lipoic acid, and the asparagus extract (5g powder extracted from 1/2 pound of organic asparagus), after my coffee. So, tons of nutrition with only a *tiny* handful of calories. The exact opposite of what most SAD people are getting.

I understand IF purists may not like it, but it's what I'm testing out. Someone posted a study link a while back about rats and adding leucine+phenylalanine to their IF protocol and noting improved body comp and mass gain. So I'm trying something "similar" with creatine and BCAAs.

All of my other supplements (including fish oil and CLO) are taken with my big dinner.

Any update on how this is working out?

Garrett Smith
05-18-2008, 05:24 PM
Ari,
It's working fine. No complaints! I have stopped the BCAAs simply due to $$ reasons, as well as only taking my other supplements every other day (a nod to both saving $$ and supplementing "IF-style"). Any specific questions?

If you've seen my training log here, I'm definitely progressing strength-wise and I have no injuries to complain about.

John Alston
05-19-2008, 07:18 AM
I've been enjoying Scivation's Xtend (no it's not a male enhancement supp, it's BCAAs with Citrulina Malate) and it's mixable and palatable. Some before, some added to my pwo shake as well.
I had some ON unflavored B, well, I still do b/c they're undrinkably gross.
But I chime in with saying the Xtend seems to do me well. Look for it on sale, it's more than I usually like to pay.

Ari Kestler
05-19-2008, 10:21 AM
Ari,
It's working fine. No complaints! I have stopped the BCAAs simply due to $$ reasons, as well as only taking my other supplements every other day (a nod to both saving $$ and supplementing "IF-style"). Any specific questions?

If you've seen my training log here, I'm definitely progressing strength-wise and I have no injuries to complain about.

I was thinking about adding in some BCAAs maybe in the morning on an empty stomach and right before my workouts in the later afternoon. I might try the creatine again now that I have everything else under control (It used to make me feel excessively bloated but I wasn't syncing it right with my IF window). I'm thinking about just throwing the BCAAs and the creatine in with the Calm after it's fully dissolved and I've added water...thoughts?

As for your every other day vitamin use....is this everything across the board? Even fish oil?

Garrett Smith
05-19-2008, 11:28 AM
I do take the creatine and Nat. Calm together, when I took the BCAA caps I took them at the same time as well.

Pretty much EOD on supplementary things except liver tabs (I consider these food though, they are part of my "break fast" and are taken for protein purposes), adrenal powder, Natural Calm, creatine, and iodine/selenium/zinc drops. The last three things are all mixed into some herbal tea. Sometimes I do take my CLO daily.

Greg Davis
05-20-2008, 02:25 PM
Garrett do you take a probiotic with your supplements/meals/seperately?

Garrett Smith
05-20-2008, 03:37 PM
Greg,
After doing the Body Ecology Diet and probiotics/cultured foods for so long, I do single pills of the Essential Formulas maybe 1-2 times a month (it can really help with overeating symptoms), other than that I do a swig of TJ's kefir a couple times a week with/after dinner, typically with my CLO since they are both in the fridge.

Basically sporadic "refreshers" of the bacteria down there. I'm sure the occasional raw lamb steaks help in their own way...

I'm going to make a big batch of cultured veggies this holiday weekend, so I'll have those around for a while too.

Since Cori is pregnant, I still have her on the maintenance 2 pills a day of the Essential Formulas plus some kefir...now she's the one telling me she needs me to make the cultured veggies since she heard they were good for the baby (she used to piss and moan when I'd ask her to eat them before).

Oh well. Chalk it up to "proximity bias".

Tony Ferous
06-11-2008, 05:10 AM
All these questions on BCAAs and creatine, and no one asked Garrett what on earth asparagus extract does! I assume it make your pee smell, but there must be some other benefits...

Garrett Smith
06-11-2008, 07:38 AM
Well, besides the fun party trick of smelly pee...

http://chi-health.com/Products/ASPARAGUS.htm

http://leviticus11.com/asparagus.htm

While I don't have this issue, it would be very helpful for those trying to gain weight and having trouble getting enough veggies in their diet due to their bulk. It's a 1/2 pound of organic veggies concentrated into 5 grams of powder (in the tea version). The tea hardly tastes of asparagus at all.

Scott Kustes
06-12-2008, 03:10 PM
"It smells like Satan's urine after a hefty dose of asparagus."

John Alston
07-02-2008, 11:03 AM
Kevin,

Here is what Greg reccomends. http://www.performancemenu.com/daily/index.php?show=daily&dailyID=54

I run out and forget to order and end up picking up whatever the GNC has up the street from my house. I really need to order 2 at a time so I am always ahead. Good stuff.
Anyone try this? Is it drinkable? Xtend is too pricey for me. The ON version I had/have is kind of gross.

Dave Van Skike
07-02-2008, 12:56 PM
Anyone try this? Is it drinkable? Xtend is too pricey for me. The ON version I had/have is kind of gross.

Curious as well. BCAA's do zippo for me but maybe I'm not getting enough?

Garrett Smith
07-02-2008, 01:32 PM
I really want to try the simple leucine and phenylalanine combo that they used on the fasting rats...I'll look up the study unless someone else wants to post the link to the abstract?

John Alston
07-02-2008, 02:24 PM
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/84/3/623
Here's something... leucine seems to have a decent rep.

John Alston
07-02-2008, 02:29 PM
Intersting discussion on BCAAs that isn't biased to promote selling specific products...(tnation anyone?).

http://www.mindandmuscle.net/articles/jamie-hale/BCAA-roundtable

.

Then again, maybe I save my money... they ain't that cheap and some good general shakes have some decent BCAA amounts in them.
M. Berkhan: No, you get plenty off BCAAs from food protein sources, especially whey protein. There’s nothing showing any benefit of excessive dosing. Because BCAAs are very glucogenic, they will most likely end up in your bloodstream as glucose. Bodybuilders who eat piles of protein and consume BCAAs on the side are throwing money down the drain.

Dave Van Skike
07-02-2008, 03:30 PM
Then again, maybe I save my money... they ain't that cheap and some good general shakes have some decent BCAA amounts in them.

Damnit. Where's my magic bullet?

Mike ODonnell
07-02-2008, 04:27 PM
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/84/3/623
Here's something... leucine seems to have a decent rep.

Leucine seems the be the one I hear get the most promo as being beneficiary....and here's some interesting findings....

"In studying exercise and how muscle develops, we found that leucine has a particularly unique effect in that it spares muscle proteins during weight loss, so you only lose the fat and not the muscle," Layman, at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, tells WebMD. "While most dietary plans talk about protein as percent of total calories, we look at protein needs based on a person's individual body weight and projected leucine intake to lose weight without losing lean muscle."

Leucine, which isn't produced by the human body, is found in protein-rich animal foods such as beef, chicken, fish, dairy, and eggs.
http://www.webmd.com/diet/news/20030207/protein-diet-may-prompt-weight-loss

Effects of leucine and phenylalanine supplementation during intermittent periods of food restriction and refeeding in adult rats.

Although many studies have shown that amino acid ingestion acutely stimulates protein anabolism, only few studies have investigated whether long-term supplementation promotes changes in body composition. We therefore tested the hypothesis that l-leucine (LEU) and l-phenylalanine (PHE) supplementation might have a positive impact on the body composition of rats submitted to intermittent periods of food restriction and refeeding (weight cycling or WC).

Neither fasting insulin nor glucose concentration nor postprandial insulin secretion was significantly affected by the supplemented diet. In conclusion, supplementation with LEU+PHE improved the body composition profile of rats submitted to WC, mainly by increasing lean body mass and body protein content.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17512018?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_RVDocSum


Essential amino acid and carbohydrate ingestion prior to resistance exercise does not enhance post-exercise muscle protein synthesis.

We conclude that EAA+CHO ingestion prior to resistance exercise does not enhance post-exercise FSR as compared to exercise without nutrients.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18535123?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

Liam Dougherty Springer
07-02-2008, 06:33 PM
Essential amino acid and carbohydrate ingestion prior to resistance exercise does not enhance post-exercise muscle protein synthesis.

We conclude that EAA+CHO ingestion prior to resistance exercise does not enhance post-exercise FSR as compared to exercise without nutrients. [/url]



Okay I think I get it but I am wondering....... this study is saying that it dosen't effect the protein synthesis post work out......

Does it not make sense however that BCAA suplementation and or PROTEIN CARB meal (like a protein shake) pre work out would aid in protein spareing during the work out.

I could see a practicle application for protein spareing during a workout. Not that it is always a big deal at all because from what I understand the bodies first priority with any nutrition coming into the body after strenuouse or exhastive activity is to replinish whatever storage was used for energy whether it be Amino Acid Glycogen or unfortunatley Adipose tissue storage.

It seems to me for this reason post workout nutrition is extremely important however some people seem to start their fasts a few hours before a workout and continue after. In these circumstances especially it seems as though you would reduce muscle loss by ensureing the abundant presence of BCAA and gutamine during the work out through supplementation.

Any thoughts on this wanted as I have been pondering playing with this Idea in my randomized in and out black box experiment staring yours truely.

Steven Low
07-02-2008, 07:49 PM
There's different things that occur if you don't do certain things or do certain things. It's complex and I don't pretend to understand everything but let's just say that some people do better with food after and some don't. Just like with nutrition... with training. As I've said before I don't really notice any significant differences regardless so it doesn't matter with me. It might with you.

Figure out what works for you. (yes, I've said this in like 5+ posts in the past week but it's true, heh).

The more I learn about nutrition, training, sleep, etc. the simpler everything becomes. And it's funny cause the body actually becomes more complex the more you know.

Paul McKirdy
07-03-2008, 06:35 AM
reality is a state of energy
thought is within the encapsulation of energy state -> delta -> energy state
thought determines reality

Soon we'll just figure out how to tell our DNA to construct carbon nano-tube based muscle cell walls then it's just going to be really cool deadlifting a locomotive ;). I think there's just a certain why to say please that they like haha! I'll let everyone know as soon as I figure it out I promise!

At a higher level boil down point I think it's just that the body really does know exactly how to implement exactly what you want to achieve; you have to persistently think about it and act on it.

I definitely agree, find what works for You and exploit test exploit rinse repeat. Keep learning and thinking.

Garrett Smith
07-03-2008, 06:58 AM
MOD, that's the study I was talking about.

As far as the other one you posted that showed no effect on protein synthesis, it may or may not be as relevant based on the nutrition and training plans the subjects were on...

Mike ODonnell
07-03-2008, 08:15 AM
The more I learn about nutrition, training, sleep, etc. the simpler everything becomes.

Somewhere in the backwoods of Canada is someone who never read a fitness magazine....eats lots of red meat/bacon/eggs....goes to sleep every night...and lifts heavy stuff....drinks beer....and he is big, strong and healthy. Or on a caribean island a guy works daily with his hands, eats lots of jerk meat and celebrates with rum on a nightly basis...and has a ripped muscular body that people in Hollywood pay $400/hr to some celebrity trainer to get them looking like. Ask either men what their secret is and they will look at you and say..."Ummmm...no idea".

Here in America we spend millions on research and development for artificial supplements, everyone trying to find the perfect diet, analyzing everything down to a single nutrient in isolation as the answer, have the ultimate workout progressions and have to schedule randomization training (which seems ironic), have 24 hour media networks and 1000s of magazines and books to give us all the information we will ever need....and most everyone is weak, sick and fat.

Funny how simple is always better....and ignorance can be bliss.

Steven Low
07-03-2008, 09:12 AM
Yep. No need to get fancy.

Lift heavy, eat clean, sleep well, and do your occasional metcon or two. Add in more clean food if you want to gain mass, subtract a bit if you want to lose weight. IF if it makes you feel better. Supplement if you have the money, *and* if it actually works for you.

Simple stuff works.

Liam Dougherty Springer
07-03-2008, 10:12 AM
Somewhere in the backwoods of Canada is someone who never read a fitness magazine....eats lots of red meat/bacon/eggs....goes to sleep every night...and lifts heavy stuff....drinks beer....and he is big, strong and healthy. Or on a caribean island a guy works daily with his hands, eats lots of jerk meat and celebrates with rum on a nightly basis...and has a ripped muscular body that people in Hollywood pay $400/hr to some celebrity trainer to get them looking like. Ask either men what their secret is and they will look at you and say..."Ummmm...no idea".

Here in America we spend millions on research and development for artificial supplements, everyone trying to find the perfect diet, analyzing everything down to a single nutrient in isolation as the answer, have the ultimate workout progressions and have to schedule randomization training (which seems ironic), have 24 hour media networks and 1000s of magazines and books to give us all the information we will ever need....and most everyone is weak, sick and fat.

Funny how simple is always better....and ignorance can be bliss.

WORDS TO LIVE BY!

I always complicate things. The truth is I know better I just cant stop it sometimes. Also it can be fun to just theorise and explore but it rarely actualizes as much as simple action. Thanks for the reality check guys.

joe waguespack
07-10-2008, 07:48 AM
OK, I've read every BCAA thread I can find on here and I still have not found a yes or no answer ( maybe there isn't one is what I'm thinking). Do BCAA's effect the nature of the fasted state if taken before a workout? If I am IF'ing and plan to train in a fasted state , but take BCAA's pre workout, does it effect the benefits of fasted training (GH response, fat loss.....)? I found one thread on another forum about BCAA"s causing an insulin response, but no one could back up those statements with any studies. Can anyone clear this up for me? I am new to IF and want to make sure I stay strict for a while before I start experimenting. THanks

Mike ODonnell
07-10-2008, 07:53 AM
Do BCAA's effect the nature of the fasted state if taken before a workout? If I am IF'ing and plan to train in a fasted state , but take BCAA's pre workout, does it effect the benefits of fasted training (GH response, fat loss.....)?

No it shouldn't as you won't get an insulin or digestive response from it. Unless it's a BCAA with some sort of sugar/sweetener added. Pure BCAAs are what you want (powdered form best....since capsules have other things in them as well). Also you don't need much, small doses like 5-10g would do it.

Experiment away......

joe waguespack
07-10-2008, 08:13 AM
Thank you very much Mike.

Garrett Smith
07-10-2008, 08:50 AM
Joe,
If you notice increased hunger while "fasting" after adding BCAAs to your regimen, then your insulin response has been triggered and you'll want to take that into consideration.

joe waguespack
07-10-2008, 11:01 AM
Joe,
If you notice increased hunger while "fasting" after adding BCAAs to your regimen, then your insulin response has been triggered and you'll want to take that into consideration.


Thanks Garrett, I pretty much will just be adding them in immediately before training , and then eating my first meal about 30 minutes after training, so I may not have a chance to notice the hunger. I have only been IF'ing for two weeks and while I feel more alert and less tired during the fast my workouts have been dragging. Is there an adjustment period to the fast? Do you think the BCAA's will help at all? I am also no stranger to good black coffee, so I know thats not the problem.