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Greg Battaglia
02-15-2008, 03:10 PM
Ok, not exactly the most tasteful post, but here it goes. I have hemorrhoids, I've know that for years. They really don't bother me at all except for the fact that recently I've began to notice dripping blood in my stool. There is no blood actually in the stool, but bright red blood drips out during a BM. I also noticed that my stool is well-formed when it first comes out but then breaks up like diarrhea as it sits in the bowl. I used to get blood in my stools occasionally in the past, but now it's almost every time, and the blood just drips out like a drippy fosset and appears on the TP when wiping. It's bright red and completely fresh blood, so I'm not too worried about upper GI problems. I'm guessing it's either an anal fissure or an internal hemorrhoid. Anyway, in the past few months I have incorporated more raw vegetables into my diet and have made an effort to reduce nut consumption. I notice when I do add in nuts there is more bleeding, but this also occurs with an increase in raw veggies. Occasionally I'll get a bit of a sharp pain in my lower GI tract with passing a BM, but most of the time things flow easily.

Sorry to gross anyone out, but does anyone know how I can eliminate this completely or atleast stop the bleeding? Any ideas of the primary cause?

I take probiotics daily, 3-4 grams of fish oil, B-complex, and 800mg of magnesium citrate (which has only loosened my stools). I also put a touch of turmeric and ginger in my morning tea. I'm thinking the blood thinning effects of the FO combined with turmeric and ginger might be increasing the susceptibility of my roids to bleed? Anyway, thanks in advance.

Steve Liberati
02-15-2008, 03:59 PM
Greg, same problem and coincidentally our eating patterns and supplement intake is oddly alike. The one thing I noticed is this when I cut back on my fat intake (and closely monitor the amount of fat I ingest), the problem drastically diminishes. As soon as I go 3x 4x times fat, the problem mounts (and as you can probably attest, the condition can be quite a nuisance at times...especially around others in public).
I've also found Preparation H to work very well, at least short-term. Try cutting back on the fat a little and see what happens though. AS you already know rotating/removing/reintrouducing foods is the best approach at this point to see what may be causing it.

Garrett Smith
02-15-2008, 04:25 PM
Greg,
First thing, you have to stop using Paleo toilet paper, aka tree bark. It's a bit scratchy. Har har.

On to more serious topics. Do you have any of these signs of liver congestion? (http://www.holysmoke.org/wb/wb0178.htm)

Signs and symptoms.
There are many signs or symptoms that indicate the liver or
gallbladder are congested. Insomnia and waking between 1 and 3
a.m., or sleeping all night and waking up feeling that you
haven't slept at all along with weakness, sluggishness and
tiredness. When there is no bile in the stomach there can be
nervousness and migraine headaches and digestion is seriously
impaired.

Emotional upsets such as sudden anger and depression
are sure signs. No bile can also cause gas in the stomach
producing pain around the heart and sternum area and water may
develop around the heart and in the lungs. Visual problems may
develop, neck and shoulder pain, low back pain or pain in the
joints especially the knees, weakness and pain in upper front leg
muscles and calves, pain in the arms and top of the right hand.
There is likely to be dry or oily skin, itchy ears, muscle pain
after working, heartburn, diarrhoea, constipation, frequent
urination, pain between the shoulder blades, colitis, ulcers,
hiatus hernia and digestive problems, (especially after eating),
too much sleep, nausea, vomiting, certain foods repeating, (such
as radish, green peppers, cucumber and onions), pain in the right
side radiating to the back, colic, mental problems, pain in the
liver or gallbladder area, headaches and a bitter taste in the
mouth.

External signs.
Reddish blue colouring under the eyes and over the forehead and
other areas of the body. Two vertical lines between the eyebrows,
yellow eyes or skin, a red nose etc. Other problems caused
directly by liver congestion are spastic colon, worms,
infections, chills, anal itching, anaemia, diabetes, obesity,
underweight, appendicitis and heart palpitations. Liver
congestion can also lead to ear problems, swollen legs (edema),
skin diseases, rheumatism, arthritis, glandular imbalances,
menstrual problems, nervous disorders, muscle weakness,
bronchitis, sclerosis, T.B., cancer, sterility, impotence,
thyroid conditions, etc. etc.

If you'd rather say yes to any of the above over PM to me, go for it. Being as you are relatively healthy (at least it appears so), the minor signs above are the ones I'm most interested in.

Greg Battaglia
02-15-2008, 06:38 PM
Steve,
good thoughts. Now that I think about it my fat intake has been quite high, Lots of olive oil and grass-fed butter. Not to mention the fat I'm getting from the meat I eat (fatty grass-fed varieties have increased, as I've been cutting out conventional meats of all kinds lately). I also notice that some (half, I guess) of the chunks in my stool float on the top as the rest sinks. I'll cut back and see what's up.

Garret,
Some of those symptoms are there (pain between shoulder blades, nausea after eating/upon waking, mood swings (this is a big one)) however, most of those symptoms don't sound familiar for my body. Plus, my mom is a lab tech and takes my blood quite regularly. My liver enzymes are fine, but ALT is sometimes mildly elevated. I'll have her take my blood the next time she has work (next Tuesday I believe) and I'll let you know how it goes. In the mean time I'll try to cut the fat a bit.

Thanks guys.

Garrett Smith
02-16-2008, 03:44 PM
Greg,
If a person who is doing as many things for your health as you are is having any high liver enzymes, something is up with the liver. That's what you'll want to address for the hemorrhoids long-term.

I go by black-box symptoms over lab tests, and you've got them (plus showing tendencies in labs). That would be all I would need.

Greg Battaglia
02-16-2008, 04:58 PM
It gotcha, but what would cause liver congestion? Maybe I need to supplement with some ox-bile to help metabolize all this fat I'm consuming? I initially attributed the pain between shoulder blades to my shoulder injuries. I think the nausea might have something to do with digestion, hence the ox-bile thought. When I first went low-carb a long time ago these symptoms were quite pronounced at first, but eventually dialed down as I became fat adapted and remained at this low level up until now. Some of the symptoms I blamed on my MVP, but it seems as though you could be onto something. When I exercise a lot the symptoms dwindle, so I'm not sure if it's merely a side effect of my recent sedentary tendencies due to my injuries.

The ironic thing is that today I had no blood in my stool, lol. Murphy's Law I guess, but I don't expect it to be gone for good.

Matt Lawson
02-17-2008, 10:51 AM
Hey,

I thought i would give my 2 cents here. I have had the same problem but i have attributed it to Crohn's disease. I do not form stool at all, and have not sense my first bowel re segment (had my ilium removed) in 2001. Occasionally i have a good grumper but more often than not it sounds like im drowning Donald Duck in the bowl. I, like you, have had the blood dripping issue. Maybe this is exclusive to patients that have Crohn's but if you tell the doc that they are gonna do some exploring. prepare yourself.

One thing that has helped me in the past has been to double check my fiber intake. If i am upping my fat i tend to get full and not down as much fiber.

Another idea: aloe enriched TP by cottonell. Its an o-ring saver. Also, the wet wipes are a definite go.

I would listen to the doc when it comes to the liver. One of the meds i am on, and have been on for years, is Emuran (SP?). Apparently it can upset the liver. They check my blood all the time. Listening to the right doc can really help. I haven't in the past and i have the scars to prove it.

-matt

Garrett Smith
02-17-2008, 12:29 PM
Greg,
I second Matt's endorsement of wet wipes. I have them at home and at the office, I do not like being without them.

A family member of mine (definitely not Paleo, and doesn't eat healthy and imbibes a bit too often) has the hemorrhoid issue. When it gets bad, again, I tell him to lower his alcohol consumption and take more of my personal favorite liver supplement, a combination of curcumin, Siliphos (silybin from milk thistle bound to phosphatidylcholine), and OPCs from grapeseed extract. That combo gives him relief, if not remission, every single time.

Now, I know you aren't drinking a whole lot. You may be having more fat than your liver (and associated bile production) can handle. You may also have a food allergy to something you are consuming often that is showing up mainly as liver "stress". Note I'm not talking skin-prick test allergies--we don't eat with our skin, last time I checked. I'm talking a blood test for food allergies, done through one of several specific companies that specialize in this process.

Considering what I'd guess I know about your lifestyle, I'd say your issue boils down to one of three (these are likely occuring in combination) areas:
1 - Known or unknown sources of toxicity getting into your system
2 - Excessive stress (this can include exercise stress) that is not being managed properly, if at all
3 - Food allergies

If you want to explore any of these options, and/or do a test that actually tests your liver's ability to detoxify different compounds (http://www.gdx.net/home/assessments/detox/), which would give us potential insight as to what type of toxicity may be occuring, your body's current ability to handle it, and possible supplementation to assist any/all of those sluggish pathways, PM me.

Greg Battaglia
02-18-2008, 05:39 PM
I'm thinking it may be a food allergy. Every time I eat nuts (particularly cashews) I get the bleeding plus other symptoms. Plus cashews tend to exasperate my MVP as well. I'm going to completely cut them out for a few weeks and see what happens. If it goes unresolved I'll PM you for those tests.

Thanks again for all the helpful information.

Garrett Smith
02-19-2008, 08:25 AM
Greg, that's a great place to start.

John Seiler
02-25-2008, 01:17 PM
Nothing to do with the diet or liver aspects of this thread but relating to hemorrhoids and paleo lifestyle...

A few years back I was having hemorrhoid problems and read about elevating your feet when on the toilet. According to the author we evolved eliminating from the squatting position. She claims that the sitting position situates the bowels such that elimination is imcomplete. I started putting my feet up on a 6" box during my bowel movements and my hemorrhoids all but cleared up. If we're eating Paleo, I guess we should eliminate Paleo too.

Greg Davis
02-25-2008, 05:08 PM
A few years back I was having hemorrhoid problems and read about elevating your feet when on the toilet. According to the author we evolved eliminating from the squatting position. She claims that the sitting position situates the bowels such that elimination is imcomplete. I started putting my feet up on a 6" box during my bowel movements and my hemorrhoids all but cleared up. If we're eating Paleo, I guess we should eliminate Paleo too.

You know the "paleo movement" is making progress in depth of analysis when....

I wouldn't actually admit this to anyone but hah I have to try this. Not cuz I have a hemorrhoid problem, but it just sounds so hardcore..

Chris Forbis
02-25-2008, 06:10 PM
You know the "paleo movement" is making progress in depth of analysis when....

I wouldn't actually admit this to anyone but hah I have to try this. Not cuz I have a hemorrhoid problem, but it just sounds so hardcore..

http://naturesplatform.com/

When I'm feeling real hardcore I squat with my heels on the rim of the toilet bowl.

Allen Yeh
02-26-2008, 04:23 AM
Nothing to do with the diet or liver aspects of this thread but relating to hemorrhoids and paleo lifestyle...

A few years back I was having hemorrhoid problems and read about elevating your feet when on the toilet. According to the author we evolved eliminating from the squatting position. She claims that the sitting position situates the bowels such that elimination is imcomplete. I started putting my feet up on a 6" box during my bowel movements and my hemorrhoids all but cleared up. If we're eating Paleo, I guess we should eliminate Paleo too.

Interesting idea.

Did you mean emulate?

John Seiler
02-26-2008, 11:29 AM
Interesting idea.

Did you mean emulate?

I guess I should have said "elimanate Paleo-style". But hey, emulate works.

Mike ODonnell
02-26-2008, 01:06 PM
Not sure if it is related....but the time I got them I began dosing on dig enzymes at night and it went away.

Greg Battaglia
02-27-2008, 12:34 PM
Ok, so I;ve cut all cashews out of my diet. It was tough to give up TJ's cashew and macadamia nut butter, but I do have to admit that my digestion has improved as well as overall well-being. I still eat other nuts (TJ's raw mixed nuts and crunchy almond butter) but have reduce the quantities. I've been doing mostly greens and meats with good fats, as usual. I haven't had any blood in the stool since and everything seems to be flowing nicely. However, the bleeding stopped before I cut out the cashews and reduced overall nut intake, so it's entirely possible that there was another cause. Anyway, so far, so good. I'm going to add the cashews back in sometimes next week and see if the blood returns.

I've read about the squatting dumps before. I'm actually going to give it a try, seems quite paleo. People already think I'm nuts, so why not top it off?

Steve Liberati
03-18-2008, 03:50 AM
I'm convinced that grass fed meat is the culprit. As odd as it may seem. Just bought 20 lbs of grass-fed meat last week from slankers and what do ya know...the roids are back. Although I had my suspicions before, I really don't think is a coincidence. Wonder what inside the grass-fed meat is causing it?
I doubt this will be enough to have me give up eating GF meat.

Garrett Smith
03-18-2008, 05:39 AM
Steve,
You may want to try rotating some lamb (I get the TJ's stuff, New Zealand grassfed) in for a couple days in a row. You could be hypersensitive to beef.

What kind of meat were you eating before, when the 'roids went away or into hiding?

Steve Liberati
03-18-2008, 06:22 AM
Steve,
You may want to try rotating some lamb (I get the TJ's stuff, New Zealand grassfed) in for a couple days in a row. You could be hypersensitive to beef.

What kind of meat were you eating before, when the 'roids went away or into hiding?

I bought the NZ grass-fed lamb before from TJ's and boy it was delicious.
Stopped buying it though after spotting it on Cordain's and Dr. Eaton's "foods-to-avoid" list. Curious to bring back to see how my body reacts to it.

Before, I was eating grass-fed ground meat before taking a few month hiatus (not complete avoidance) from grass-fed meat. Occasional grass-fed flank steak from time to time. Recently had grass-fed ground goat meat and grass-fed chuck steaks which is when I noticed the re-occurrence.

Mike ODonnell
03-18-2008, 06:36 AM
Interesting with the Grass Fed thing....could this be related to an over abundance of Omega 3s and not enough Omega 6? Do you also take fish oil? Do you only eat Omega 3 eggs? Do you limit your Omega 6s almost to the point they are non existent? You may need to add some nuts in for balance....just putting it out there to try.

Garrett Smith
03-18-2008, 09:32 AM
What's with Cordain and Eaton not liking lamb? Do they give justification?

Is it a neolithic animal? (joke...ha)

If you are sensitive to beef for whatever reason, I'd say it is a good option!

Greg Battaglia
03-18-2008, 02:33 PM
Ah ha!

Steve, good call!

I added cashews back into my diet last week, no bleeding. Now that you mention it, my grocery store hasn't been selling grass-fed beef lately and I had to resort to the domestic varieties. After realizing that it might be a while before they restock (if ever) their GF meat supply I decided to buy some from another local but far more expensive health food store (Martindale's for those wondering). What do you know, the next day there's blood. There was far less than normal, but it was there nonetheless. I wonder why this might be. I'm thinking the n-3:n-6 theory is probably it. Not only have I been eating GF beef, but also taking high dosage Carlson's fish oil and take cinnamon in my morning tea (green tea) and turmeric and ginger in my tea after dinner (chamomile tea). Combine all this with a sudden increase in raw vegetable fiber (which may temporarily irritate the GI tract until adaptation) and it seems highly likely that too much blood thinning could be the issue.

I'll experiment with this some more and see what happens.

Gittit Shwartz
03-18-2008, 03:31 PM
FWIW, I once did a Velocity-type diet with 36 grams of fish oil a day (6 pills with each shake) and no other fat source. That went fine - but when I tried to do it again, several months later, I just...returned all the fish oil I had ingested to the porcelain gods. No blood involved, just lots of oil.
Someone who told me your tissues would reach a point of saturation with omega-3's, so there was no point in repeating a megadosing cycle. I have no idea if this is valid or complete bunk (the man was selling omega-3 enhanced chocolate chews) but it would fit in with my experience.

Steve Liberati
03-18-2008, 06:30 PM
Interesting with the Grass Fed thing....could this be related to an over abundance of Omega 3s and not enough Omega 6? Do you also take fish oil? Do you only eat Omega 3 eggs? Do you limit your Omega 6s almost to the point they are non existent? You may need to add some nuts in for balance....just putting it out there to try.

Could be. Good chance my n-3:n-6 ratio is off-balance, omega-3 intake tipping the scale. Usually eat 4 meals a day when I'm not fasting (2-3x's wk). Always Omega-3 eggs from the local farm in the morning. Wild salmon or grass-fed meat for lunch and some type of grass-fed meat for dinner(with grass-fed O-3 coconut butter used for cooking). Top off the night with CLO (in the winter only) or fish oil.

I'll make the necessary adjustments and report back. Thanks for the suggestions.

Greg Woods
03-19-2008, 10:03 AM
Very interesting discussion in that I never associated bleeding episodes with my diet. I always assumed it was the result of ATG squats, but this last month there has been little/no correlation with heavy lifting. Guess it's time to keep track of food consumption.

Mike ODonnell
03-19-2008, 10:49 AM
With all the talk about the dangers of Omega 6s...we still need some or a balance of I believe it was Cordain who said it was 2:1 in Paleo times? Don't remember specifically. But excessive bleeding could be a sign of the inability to clot properly, hence the role of Omega 6s...so we all don't bleed to death from a papercut.

Chris Forbis
03-19-2008, 12:13 PM
With all the talk about the dangers of Omega 6s...we still need some or a balance of I believe it was Cordain who said it was 2:1 in Paleo times? Don't remember specifically. But excessive bleeding could be a sign of the inability to clot properly, hence the role of Omega 6s...so we all don't bleed to death from a papercut.

Yeah, let's not forget that omega-6 is classified as an EFA for a reason...

Joe Hart
03-19-2008, 01:37 PM
That is one thing that I noticed when I was taking a lot of fish oil and then tossed in some slamon. I did get what felt like hemroids and occasionally bleeding. It seems like when I take fish oil in the morning Mother Nature starts knocking on the door and won't take no for an answer.