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View Full Version : Diane, loading for Crossfit WODS and a question of strength


James Evans
02-27-2008, 03:21 PM
This may be long windedÖbut stay with me.

When I first stumbled upon Crossfit back in 2004 I was immediately struck by some of the weights being used for the workouts. There wasnít a lot that I wasnít comfortable lifting for a few reps but not for sets as long as 21 and not with the kind of intensity that was involved. Even the lighter stuff (despite the constant jibes of other sites) is not that light. As Robb said a while back, if 60kg is a big front squat for you then 40kg thrusters in Fran are going to leave you exposed.

Anyway, I thought to myself, stuff the skinny guy pull-ups and gymnastic movements, to thrive at this shit itís going to help to be strong. Now I really donít know shit about anything but it seems I might have been onto something with some of the influences that have come in Crossfit over the last 3 years or so.

Now I am not a regular Crossfit adherent. I do some of the stuff and I have learnt a lot from the site and the community around it. Iím a former rugby player who is really a half arsed endurance athlete with a love of throwing weight around. I have never regularly trained Crossfit as per the WOD but I do follow Rutís stuff pretty closely.

What I want to know is how the fuck do you do Diane in under 3 minutes?

But the question is a little more subtle and multi levelled than it would seem.

Ages ago there was a link to one of the stars (APT?) slamming out the deads and handstand pushups like it was the end of the world. I remember he looked pretty tall and slim. There was a bit of a debate about his technique at the time but by being frontpage he obviously got endorsement from the top and as far as I am concerned (and I said this to Shaf at the time) I didnít really care about the technique, he was moving 100kg+ like it was a training bar.

I weigh 70kg. I can deadlift 150kg Ė nothing special but more than twice my bodyweight. I usually dl heavy once during the middle of the week (warm up, 1 set of 5 at 90% then 1 x 5 back off). At the weekend I aim to do higher reps with more of a conditioning focus so bodyweight paired with push presses for example. Tonight I needed a compromise of the two so it was DLs at 102kg and strict press at 40kg for 15-12-9-6-3 reps. And it was bloody murder.

Here is the crux though Ė where I usually train I donít have bumpers and I canít Ďdropí the weight. In the video he was definitely Ďdroppingí the bar, admittedly under control, at a hell of lick. I put the bar down and it hits nearly harder than lifting the damn thing. Iíve had tuition from an Oly coach who believes you should always dump the bar for safety reasons when deadlifting. This was all hotly contested at the time the video was posted. Now I am not getting into one of these pathetic Ďkipping pull-ups donít countí type slanging matches here. I have total respect for people who absolutely slam the likes of Diane and Fran. And I accept many of them are probably 400lb deadlifters etc. But how much is it brute strength and how much is it technique in these fast times?

By the way, Iím not totally naÔve or stupid, Iím often half joking when I write stuff here but I want to have a serious debate about method and the nature of strength. Should I be able to slam out 20 reps easily? I think it was Eric Cressey in something I read the other day on T Nation who mentioned correlation of rep numbers for really strong guys at decreasing weights. The gist being that you can have a massive 1 rep max but you would have to drop a long way down to be able to manage 10 reps. But at my rather pathetic 150kg I find itís singles downwards for quite a long way too.

Derek Simonds
02-27-2008, 05:23 PM
James you just covered a hell of a lot of territory.

I work out with Leo from Crossfit Evolution from time to time and he is a big dude. I think he is around 6' 3" and he was 104 KG this morning when I read his workout log. He has a lot of absolute strength and rep strength.

His times just keep getting faster and faster on the the shorter crossfit WOD's. We will have to ask him for his Diane time but I know he is only a little off on some of the front page times that I have seen lately.

He and Gant, who is also turning into an animal, focus on strength and hit the shorter met-cons hard.

Personally I have been following the CA-WOD since inception. I had a problem with my knee and have been off the CA-WOD's for about 3 weeks. I started this week on a program I could do that wouldn't have any knee contact and it had a rep scheme of 10,8,8,6 of FS. Well between being off for a couple of weeks on the legs and doing 10 reps in a row for the first time in forever I have the most significant case of DOMS ever! So I agree with Cressey about the 1 RM and reps at a lighter weight.

Good thoughts. I think it comes back to the stronger you are relative to BW the better you can do at most of the WOD's.

Sam Cannons
02-27-2008, 08:33 PM
Lots of good stuff to think about here, personally Diane is one of my fav workouts. I remember a while ago my dead went up by about 10kg and i droped a minute off my time. I dont have bumpers either and have never had a problem lowering the weight after deads, assuming you've had a decent exposure to weightlifting i wouldn't see it as a problem.

Sub 3 min diane is BIG, but not out of reach. Id like to think i will have it in the next six months.

Troy Archie
02-27-2008, 10:27 PM
Ok, yeah the deadlifts suck. But what about the HSPU? They're a beast unto themselves...

James Evans
02-28-2008, 03:07 AM
Well, I guess I had my answer while I was writing the post. Shut up and muscle up. We all need to aim to be stronger (particularly me!).

I didn't even dare touch on the issue of the HSPUs.

In terms of setting the bar down though I still think there are variables here. I have no problem putting the bar back down to earth when I lift. This is part of the exercise. I'm not keen on doing near maximal work where I can't safely dump the bar. But the setting down phase adds to the demands of the exercise, obviously. If you do pull-ups and someone supports your weight at the top and then back down then the exercise is easy. If you do slow negatives, you get sore.

Take this complex which I created from a video posted here ages ago:

Dynamic Row (a fast deadlift to bent row) 1
Hang Power Clean 1
Push Press 1
Clean Grip Power Snatch 1

I would normally do this 5x5 at 40kg. When I have done this with bumpers and can drop the bar quickly I find it a relative breeze. In my training environment at home where everything is controlled then it sucks.

Look at this vid from my Neider Press post:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQggVKcFh_U

The guy is doing heavy swings but he is only doing the upward portion of the movement. There is no ballistic loading on the posterior chain as he brings the db back down. In this case though I concede that his technique actually drops the intensity of the movement and the speed with which he can perform the reps.

If you are doing 30 snatches for time and you dump the bar (under control) every rep you are obviously going to move faster and use less gas. You are reducing the work done. This is in fact more efficient. Mark Twight mentioned a while ago that he had some guys doing Turkish get up and from standing they were dropping the weight and then lying back down for the next rep. They argued that this was the most efficient (and perhaps functional) way to perform the exercise. I seem to remember that Twight sort of conceded this but pointed out that this wasn't the point of the Turkish get up. If you run around the perimeter of a football pitch then it is quicker to cut the corners isn't it?

Now I sound like I'm badmouthing technique again which isn't the aim and I have no idea how I can apply these ideas to thrusters or HSPUs where there really is nowhere to hide.

If I lift something heavy in life ideally I want to be able to put it down again afterwards. If I miss a clean in the gym then stuff it but dropping a piano or a drunk girlfriend has a bit more seriousness attached to it.

Anyway, enough crap from me. The main answer as I said at the beginning is just get stronger.

Derek Simonds
02-28-2008, 03:29 AM
That was a point I meant to get to in my reply. As my strength has increased my times have decreased whenever I have done a benchmark WOD.

Allen Yeh
02-28-2008, 04:02 AM
Ages ago there was a link to one of the stars (APT?) slamming out the deads and handstand pushups like it was the end of the world. I remember he looked pretty tall and slim. There was a bit of a debate about his technique at the time but by being frontpage he obviously got endorsement from the top and as far as I am concerned (and I said this to Shaf at the time) I didnít really care about the technique, he was moving 100kg+ like it was a training bar.

Ages as in years ago? I know Greg (back in his slim days...heh) had a vid up at one time with him doing Diane, where he got some criticisms about his deadlifts and such but he had a really crazy time.

James Evans
02-28-2008, 04:46 AM
It was at least a year ago. I haven't been in touch with Shaf for a long time. And it wasn't Greg.

James Evans
02-28-2008, 04:48 AM
Got it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YARXjYqC8mU

Allen Yeh
02-28-2008, 04:55 AM
Got it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YARXjYqC8mU

Wow, 1:49.....holy

I'm still thinking about what you've posed up above. It's a good question.

James Evans
02-28-2008, 05:05 AM
He's a machine isn't he?

And I like the fact he doesn't really look like he should be able to do that which links to that T Nation roundtable this week where they were discussing whether people who looked strong were really strong, blah, blah.

I just find it refreshing when some guy who doesn't look like a monster smashes a time like that.

Top guy.

James Evans
02-28-2008, 05:14 AM
Just had a thought, let's take it the other way. Consider those trainees who who don't hit the heavy stuff but can shift impressive numbers when they try to.

Few examples:

1. Kettlebell lifters who say their deadlift has gone up considerably from little more than swings. (Catherine Imes has said that here - I appreciate she has a solid strength background but that's a good point, she's not a novice).

2. Ross Enamait when he called that kid out on his forum and pulled a 200kg deadlift with no training. We all know that Ross is in amazing shape but apparently that was on the back of keg clean and jerks and heavy db snatches.

3. Mark Twight's observation of the guy who they discovered had an impressive deadlift at Gym Jones completely by chance. The guy was training at considerably lighter weight at higher reps and one day when they were testing they found out how strong he really was.

Kevin Perry
02-28-2008, 05:21 AM
Thats a lot to think about and it makes me think about absolute stength. Sometimes when I seea CF wod posted I feel intimidated because some of the weights used are ridiculous at first. 225lbs for 25 reps IMO is a hell of a lot of weight to move and takes a long time to work up to. Lots to ponder on.

Leo Soubbotine
02-28-2008, 05:52 AM
Olympic weightlifting rules! :D

Seriously though, I train kids from Team Florida Altamonte Weightlifing.
With no prior CF exposure 3 guys out of 5 did Diane in less than 7 minutes, one did it in 4:24. All at less than 160 lbs bw with an average c&j of 120 kg.

Some of them haven't done handstands prior to this workout.

That's why I've been mostly weightlifting myself and doing CF every once in a while.

If you have time/coaching/equipment - Weightlifting is the way to go, otherways CF is one of the best bangs for the buck.

Troy Archie
02-28-2008, 02:49 PM
Got it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YARXjYqC8mU

My roommate went to high school with that guy...small world.

James Evans
02-28-2008, 03:07 PM
Hell, for a moment I thought you might have meant the guy in the other video I posted.

Mike ODonnell
02-28-2008, 03:35 PM
I would agree that OLY and Gymnastics would give a huge solid foundation that could transfer to excelling at any sport. Conditioning can always come later....that's the easy part!

David Aguasca
02-28-2008, 03:59 PM
The amazing thing about that Diane performance is that AFT is 5'5" and 150lbs. his stats include a 400lb DL and a 395lb squat. you can imagine both of those help him on the benchmark girls.

it's pretty evident that putting up those numbers in the basic lifts helps you in short, intense events: Diane, Fran. at what point along the metabolic pathway continuum does that strength become an encumbrance?

i find it interesting that elite endurance athletes in the marathon range seem to be emaciated (at least compared to strength and sprint athletes), but a guy like Dean Karnazes (http://www.michaelhyatt.com/fromwhereisit/FF_124_ultraman1_f-1.jpg) is not emaciated, in any sense of the word. nor is Catra Corbett (http://www.birthdaychallenge.com/catra/halfdome9-3025.jpg). she's a crossfitter, though. are they genetic anomalies? i don't know much about ultrarunners, but i'd guess they'd be affected by the same by the catabolic nature of LSD.

Kevin Perry
02-28-2008, 09:24 PM
Sorry for my ignorance but is AFT a callsign for someone? Im trying to look up info on the guy but im not sure which affiliate to look to.

Kevin Perry
02-28-2008, 09:42 PM
Nevermind i remember now. The Crossfit games article says it all.

James Evans
02-29-2008, 02:23 AM
Karnazes is pretty special though. I'm not usually a fan of 'sporting' biographies but I read his recently and enjoyed it. He stopped running for 15 years at the age of 15 and only resumed on his 30th birthday after some some drunken soul searching. That night he banged out something ridiculous like 17 miles.

I'm a useful if not talented runner. If I stopped for 15 weeks I'd be hurting after a mile. I have to use a programme like the one I suggested for Allen to get back into the groove steadily.

He also, despite the high volume of running accummulated every week, trains pretty hard across the board. Lots of pull ups and push ups everyday, dumb bell work etc. and he allows his passion for surfing, windsurfing, climbing and mountain biking to be sated. Lots of sports remain very traditional and I doubt strength work still gets much of look in bar amongst the most enlightened.

He also admits that he is not necessarily the fastest runner out there. From what I'm aware of, ultra distance is hugely about mental strength and an all round physical toughness. Obviously the body takes a massive catabolic hit and needs weeks of recovery to get over it but these guys are not tuning themselves to be as fast as elite marathoners. Perhaps I'm wrong here.

Look at the example of soldiers in the British armed forces (and I'm talking the elite guys here), the emphasis is on endurance work like marching and running and having the strength to carry equipment, weapons, fellow soldiers etc. We do not have the level of mechanisation enjoyed by the US (I think this is a serious point) and our soldiers have traditionally had to march to get anywhere, usually carrying heavy loads. You see a lot of strongly built soldiers running respectable marathon times, taking part in Tough Guy etc. And I would imagine that would be the same in the US.

And there are guys like Brendan at Santa Cruz who I am sure goes out and runs 20 miles for fun.

But what we are used to in distance is guys looking like the Kenyans.

I'm deviating here onto the nature of endurance work which is for another post. As for Karnazes, absolute legend and inspiration.

James Evans
02-29-2008, 02:26 AM
By the way, I'm shocked to hear he is only 5' 5''. I thought he looked 6'.

Allen Yeh
02-29-2008, 03:52 AM
Ok so after a bit of thinking (and forgetting the about the thread until this morning).

I have a similiar 1RM to the person that is posted in the video and I know I wouldn't be able to walk into the gym right now and bang out 21 DL's at 225#'s. I haven't ever done DL's like I often see in CrossFit videos though. Like you James. almost the majority of my training in the past with the exception of the last 5 months have been with metal plates and even trying to do them at the speed he is going at with metal plates is just NOT going to happen.

A slower negative in any exercise will be harder period than the same exercise with little to no negative. Like your TGU example, it's a hell of a lot easier to get to the top and dump the implement then to get back down into starting position.

A slower negative will also also add time since hypotehtically even a "faster but safe negative" is still probably in the 1-3 second range and if you were able to do everything else unbroken that is still 45 DL's with an extra 1-3 seconds per rep so right there could add anywhere from 45-135 seconds to your total time. That is a huge difference when you start getting in the sub 5's on any of the benchmark workouts.

A perfect example of the time difference is that video of Greg doing Diane a while back he actually had 2 videos Diane, because he was slamming the weight down in the first one so after enough bitching from people on the CF Board he did it again with a slower DL and his time was still really good but not as good as his original time. I tried digging for both of those videos but I'm not able to find them at the moment. Maybe Greg will give us the link and some insight into this question as I know he's has done them both ways.

Later today perhaps when I'm in the gym I'll give a few faster DL's a try with some bumpers and see what the difference is just for the sake of comparison.

Allen Yeh
02-29-2008, 03:53 AM
Karnazes is pretty special though. I'm not usually a fan of 'sporting' biographies but I read his recently and enjoyed it. He stopped running for 15 years at the age of 15 and only resumed on his 30th birthday after some some drunken soul searching. That night he banged out something ridiculous like 17 miles.


Holy crap....

Allen Yeh
02-29-2008, 03:58 AM
Now I sound like I'm badmouthing technique again which isn't the aim and I have no idea how I can apply these ideas to thrusters or HSPUs where there really is nowhere to hide.


I guess going a little off topic since this is a little bit more to do with technique. Did you see that post by Kelly Moore about technique? A very well thought out post I thought.
http://www.board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=27025

Allen Yeh
02-29-2008, 04:08 AM
Upon reflection I think both technique and some requisite strength are necessary.

Taking a look at your example of high-rep guys going to the low end.

Ross definitely had a strong DL without actually working the DL because he had built up his base, a lot. That gives a lot of credence to Bill Starr's program to build up a deadlift without actually deadlifting at all. I think it was Peter Puetz that loaded that program on here. (which I totally forgot about until just now). That program has tons of power cleans, shrugs...etc but nowhere close to the load of a max DL for weeks.

An interesting experiment would be to take the same person and somehow create of a clone of him at the exact same time and start them off on 2 different methodology's to see where each one is at a 6 months from them (same diet and other factors, bear with me this is a hypothetical).

Clone A:
-All high rep stuff nothing approaching 1RM for anything, swings, snatches, power cleans...etc

Clone B:
-All low rep stuff for the most part training the major lifts and accesories.

At the end of the 6 months you test the clone on what they haven't been working on.

Clone A:
Let's find his 1RM in DL.

Clone B:
Let's take a number of DL's that Clone A did for...21 or something like that and see if Clone B would be able to do 21.

James Evans
02-29-2008, 04:53 AM
An interesting experiment would be to take the same person and somehow create of a clone of him at the exact same time and start them off on 2 different methodology's to see where each one is at a 6 months from them (same diet and other factors, bear with me this is a hypothetical).

Clone A:
-All high rep stuff nothing approaching 1RM for anything, swings, snatches, power cleans...etc

Clone B:
-All low rep stuff for the most part training the major lifts and accesories.

At the end of the 6 months you test the clone on what they haven't been working on.

Clone A:
Let's find his 1RM in DL.

Clone B:
Let's take a number of DL's that Clone A did for...21 or something like that and see if Clone B would be able to do 21.

Successful human cloning would find a profitable marketplace in the world of athletic research alone!

Having identikit athletes and doing whatever you wanted with them without having to factor in variables, life would be a lot easier. And far more sinister.

James Evans
02-29-2008, 04:55 AM
Ok so after a bit of thinking (and forgetting the about the thread until this morning).

I have a similiar 1RM to the person that is posted in the video and I know I wouldn't be able to walk into the gym right now and bang out 21 DL's at 225#'s. I haven't ever done DL's like I often see in CrossFit videos though. Like you James. almost the majority of my training in the past with the exception of the last 5 months have been with metal plates and even trying to do them at the speed he is going at with metal plates is just NOT going to happen.

A slower negative in any exercise will be harder period than the same exercise with little to no negative. Like your TGU example, it's a hell of a lot easier to get to the top and dump the implement then to get back down into starting position.

A slower negative will also also add time since hypotehtically even a "faster but safe negative" is still probably in the 1-3 second range and if you were able to do everything else unbroken that is still 45 DL's with an extra 1-3 seconds per rep so right there could add anywhere from 45-135 seconds to your total time. That is a huge difference when you start getting in the sub 5's on any of the benchmark workouts.

A perfect example of the time difference is that video of Greg doing Diane a while back he actually had 2 videos Diane, because he was slamming the weight down in the first one so after enough bitching from people on the CF Board he did it again with a slower DL and his time was still really good but not as good as his original time. I tried digging for both of those videos but I'm not able to find them at the moment. Maybe Greg will give us the link and some insight into this question as I know he's has done them both ways.

Later today perhaps when I'm in the gym I'll give a few faster DL's a try with some bumpers and see what the difference is just for the sake of comparison.

Good stuff Allen.

To be honest it wouldn't make me much faster in the end result. I accept that strength is the key here but I think it's an interesting idea to think through.

James Evans
02-29-2008, 04:57 AM
I guess going a little off topic since this is a little bit more to do with technique. Did you see that post by Kelly Moore about technique? A very well thought out post I thought.
http://www.board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=27025

Kelly is a true Spartan.

Mike ODonnell
02-29-2008, 09:42 AM
i find it interesting that elite endurance athletes in the marathon range seem to be emaciated (at least compared to strength and sprint athletes), but a guy like Dean Karnazes (http://www.michaelhyatt.com/fromwhereisit/FF_124_ultraman1_f-1.jpg) is not emaciated, in any sense of the word. nor is Catra Corbett (http://www.birthdaychallenge.com/catra/halfdome9-3025.jpg). she's a crossfitter, though. are they genetic anomalies? i don't know much about ultrarunners, but i'd guess they'd be affected by the same by the catabolic nature of LSD.

I am sure they have a cycles of strength training....vs always doing only LSD. I would also guess their cal intake is sky high like 5000-8000cal to keep muscle. In a longevity POV, 5000-8000k a day and the high levels of possible oxidative damage is not good for the body long term. Of course you may find a person who can eat 8000cal a day, run 50 miles a day, smoke, drink and live till 99....but I would say that is 0.001% of the population. Or you can find elite athletes also having heart attacks at 40yrs old. It's a guessing game, but all you can do is take precautions and everything in moderation.

James Evans
03-03-2008, 03:04 AM
As if by magic...

http://www.mtnathlete.com/id87.html

"In the past, we've always fired through high-rep dead lifts with bouncing the plates off the ground CrossFit-style. Not today. Each rep must stop on the ground, and the athlete must re-set before lifting again. This doesn't take long.

You'll be surprised how much harder this makes the exercise - load yourself lighter than you'd think or pay."

Lots of good stuff over there by the way, he's a thoughtful (and humble) guy.

Gant Grimes
03-03-2008, 07:56 AM
James, I'm late to this discussion (not to mention Greg put out a pretty good article on the subject), but here are my thoughts.

Form. I train at Rip's gym, so my form has to be squared away or I get cussed out and ridiculed. He called a guy out for doing "basketball deadlifts" with 485# metal plates (485# doesn't bounce that much). I stop at the bottom of each one. It's a quick stop, but it's a stop. Also, the negative is a part of the exercise. If you're dropping a deadlift, you're cutting corners.

Dropping on O-lifts is a different story. For instance, in Grace, a rep is complete when the weight is (hopefully) locked out overhead. The O-lifts don't have a negative component. Dropping these is acceptable. However, the badasses hang on to the bar so they don't have to waste time resetting. They actually take a small hit in the energy department (by doing eccentric work) in exchange for a faster time.

Patrick Donnelly
03-03-2008, 02:35 PM
Another point about not going back down in the reps...

On the pull-up, I've seen many CFHQ videos end, gloriously displaying a fantastic time, with a snapshot of the person's chin reaching over the bar for the final rep (the sub 7:00 Helen comes to mind). But is that really a pull-up? What about the down portion? If that's a completed pull-up rep, I'd like to see another rep performed, from that position. If you've finished the last rep, you ought to be able to do the next one, right?

It's not a huge difference, but it's the corner-cutting mentality that gets me.

Mike ODonnell
03-03-2008, 02:40 PM
anytime you have any competition based on time...you will have corner cutting.

James Evans
03-04-2008, 03:51 AM
anytime you have any competition based on time...you will have corner cutting.

MOD is spot on there. Even if it is not your intention to actually 'cheat' per se, people will cut the corners.

I time a lot of stuff I do just to know how long I've spent not having a life, how much time I need to allocate to not having a life at a later date etc. But I often leave the stopwatch well alone and just focus on making everything as good as it can be.

Used to piss me off in rugby training when we would be doing stuff like intervals up and down the field and you had guys not running the whole distance because they knew they were out of sight from the coach and therefore could get away with, at that point in time.

If we're training for a road race or something where we compete as individuals then I don't give a damn whether you breakdown before the finish because you haven't put the work in. But in a team sport if you end up exposed in the 60th minute of an 80 minute game then the whole team is exposed.

James Evans
03-04-2008, 03:55 AM
James, I'm late to this discussion (not to mention Greg put out a pretty good article on the subject), but here are my thoughts.

I was having problems downloading the issue on Sunday and haven't had a go since. I thought the article was likely to be pertinent to this discussion.

Training at Rip's must be amazing. You're very lucky. I'd be interested to know how he balances his ideas and those of CrossFit on a day to day basis. I would guess also that the training would have a high emphasis on getting stronger anyway.

Mike ODonnell
03-04-2008, 07:48 AM
Used to piss me off in rugby training when we would be doing stuff like intervals up and down the field and you had guys not running the whole distance because they knew they were out of sight from the coach and therefore could get away with, at that point in time.

Pretty much sums up my high school hockey practices....of course our coach was a tyrant and we did way too many sprints per practice...so it was more survival tactics.

Robb Wolf
03-04-2008, 02:18 PM
Great thread. This is perhaps trite when considering some of the thought that has gone into the thread thus far but I think "it's all good". I like the athleticism of learning to bounce the weight. I like the demands of pulling heavy. Each has different characteristics and each has it's place. One could simply make a variant of the WO called "Dead-stop-Diane". It would be NASTY but I suspect much less metabolically challenging. I'll give it a shot. Currently I'm working on an answer to the ever widening HSPU's I see called "Righteous Diane". For this the HSPU's are on parallettes...and perhaps 1.5x BW...

Chris Forbis
03-04-2008, 03:42 PM
Great thread. This is perhaps trite when considering some of the thought that has gone into the thread thus far but I think "it's all good". I like the athleticism of learning to bounce the weight. I like the demands of pulling heavy. Each has different characteristics and each has it's place. One could simply make a variant of the WO called "Dead-stop-Diane". It would be NASTY but I suspect much less metabolically challenging. I'll give it a shot. Currently I'm working on an answer to the ever widening HSPU's I see called "Righteous Diane". For this the HSPU's are on parallettes...and perhaps 1.5x BW...

What about "Righteous-dead-stop-Diane"?

And please tell me you were kidding about the 1.5xBW...

Leo Soubbotine
03-04-2008, 05:49 PM
Man I need to get stronger for the Righteous Dead stop super heavy full rom Diane!

Deadlifts @ 330 wouldn't be an issue, yet hspu would lag.

Kevin Perry
03-04-2008, 07:22 PM
1.5xbw...HSPU are just getting funner and funner.

Robb Wolf
03-05-2008, 09:41 AM
What about "Righteous-dead-stop-Diane"?

And please tell me you were kidding about the 1.5xBW...

It bumps it up to 260 for me. It is nasty but I think it's going to be a goody!

Kelly Moore
03-05-2008, 04:17 PM
I like the idea of HSPUs on blocks or parallettes. How much ROM are you thinking? Hands to top of shoulders depth or greater?

I also like the idea of dead stop deadlifts....and 1.5 times bodyweight sure sounds more pleasant (180# for me) than the double bodyweight deadlifts I've been doing for Diane!

Chris Forbis
03-05-2008, 04:47 PM
It bumps it up to 260 for me. It is nasty but I think it's going to be a goody!

Heh. I thought you meant doing HSPU with an extra 0.5xBW on there...

Mike ODonnell
03-05-2008, 05:32 PM
Heh. I thought you meant doing HSPU with an extra 0.5xBW on there...

I thought the same thing....was trying to figure out how to duct tape that additional 0.5xBW to a person....

Allen Yeh
03-06-2008, 05:09 AM
I like the idea of HSPUs on blocks or parallettes. How much ROM are you thinking? Hands to top of shoulders depth or greater?

I also like the idea of dead stop deadlifts....and 1.5 times bodyweight sure sounds more pleasant (180# for me) than the double bodyweight deadlifts I've been doing for Diane!

Coach Sommer seemed to indicate that full ROM is on parallettes with your shoulders touching your hands.

Allen Yeh
03-06-2008, 05:09 AM
I thought the same thing....was trying to figure out how to duct tape that additional 0.5xBW to a person....

A little person, aduh.

James Evans
03-06-2008, 06:26 AM
It bumps it up to 260 for me. It is nasty but I think it's going to be a goody!

I was about the same as you Robb but six months out from work and doing what ever the hell I wanted each day followed by the first bout of 'flu in about ten years (lost 7lbs in a week) brings me back down to 225 and ... square one.

James Evans
03-07-2008, 08:51 AM
From today's comments to Diane:

"Nearly Righteous Dead Stop Diane" - 8:12. I've been stuck around the 4:30 mark for a couple years using 225# touch and go deadlifts/nose to carpet HSPUs. My goals have changed. I want to use clean deadlift technique and increased HSPU ROM to achieve a Diane score.

185# dead stop trap bar deadlifts - No bouncing or touch and go reps. All reps started from a complete stop from the floor. Hams and butt felt these much more than bouncing reps. More challenging then bouncing the weight, but still relatively easy. Weight can be increased in the future.

HSPUs done off 8" blocks created hands to earlobes depth with top of head touching floor and full elbow extension. "Nearly Righteous" - truly righteous would have been hands to shoulders depth but I'm not strong enough in that ROM to treat it as metcon. I was able to get 5-7 consecutive reps each round before the breaks started. These HSPUs really killed my time.

I did this as a baseline for future increased difficulty Dianes. It really exposed my weakness - increased ROM HSPUs.

Comment #64 - Posted by: Kelly Moore F/44/5'/114# at March 7, 2008 4:25 AM .

Excellent. Robb has started something. And as ever, Kelly rocks.

Pierre Auge
03-07-2008, 12:16 PM
Interesting topic indeed, just take for example myself.

I weigh 150, I DL >345 not sure what right now. Diane is one of my favorite workouts. I hardly get a chance to train... In fact it reminds me of one of Robb's comments some time ago: Open a gym, Get Fat! (without the getting fat part :)

My high speed deadlift technique is pretty damn good IMHO. I can crank through 225lbs deadlifts pretty easily. Diane, before it was called Diane was the first WOD I ever tried, it took me 23minutes and I through-up all over myself and the Battalion gym floor.

I can tear through it in under 6 minutes on any given day, limited entirely by the torn shoulder I have. (I will these days have to do lighter shoulder presses, 120lbs, because that's all I can press HSPU's hurt right now..)

My point is that my technique, not being all that strong or fit lets me get away with a hell of a lot of things that I couldn't otherwise. When I train more concertedly and apply that technique to effort, my peeps have been known to see me pump out some decent efforts.

My peeps have been known to pump out some efforts that blow mine away. Like my 165lbs buddy Wayne who is on his way to pressing 185. Why?

Psychomotor Skill and Cognition are simply two ends of the same spectrum.

Cognition - Head (Knowledge or Understanding of the need)
Affected Domain - Heart (Why we do it? Output/Outcome/Results)
Psychomotor Skills - Hands (The means by which we apply the techniques)

This is why CrossFit works, if I take somebody who's max deadlift is 250 and I make them do Diane with 225 it will be a slow ass time. But what will be the result? That will make them stronger...

The next time he/she does work with that load it will be somewhat easier. And then easier and then easier, and faster and so on and so forth. I don't care what your time is as long as you do the work and do it well. If somebody ends up doing Diane as singles in 20 minutes we've accomplished more than lowering the weight, allowing them to do it quickly. Mind you I will stop most people at 20 minutes.

Give it a week post effort test their max deadlift and it will be higher. Weird how that works. It may not be the most efficient way to get stronger, but it is the most efficient way to get people to develop good technique while getting stronger and faster. Those three aspects if applied in symetry produce superior results in timed effort, and being generalists tis the point.

On the other hand doing 1 set of 5 heavy reps on a different lift every day of the week progressively increasing in weight every week produces superior results in strength, linearly, without negatively affecting cardio vascular conditioning. Funny how that works too.

So if the matter of the fact is that you get better at what you do, than you need to do a lot of what you want to get better at. So high rep crossfit stuff gets that out of the way. And since heavy loads at low reps produces better results at making you stronger, more powerful, we've gotten that out of the way. And now since cardio & stamina are factors of blood volume and fatty acid metabolism we can assume that if we're getting stronger which increases blood volume, and we're doing high rep work which increases metabolism we've increased our cardio & stamina. All the while learning skills through repetition.

Just do the WOD and pick one exercise with which to practice a heavy lift immediately prior to the WOD. Do 5 reps. Pick a different exercise prior to each WOD and keep alternating the movements linearly increasing in load.

And if at all possible, use the prescribed weights in the WOD go as fast as possible while maintaining excellent form. You will be surprised with how much stronger and faster you get in a short time.

Allen Yeh
03-07-2008, 12:36 PM
Where the heck have you been?

Kelly Moore
03-28-2008, 07:47 PM
"Almost Righteous Deadstop Diane"

11:25 - Dead stop 225# trap bar deadlifts, increased ROM HSPUs using 6" blocks under my hands. Dead stop double bodyweight deadlifts were a bear....even harder were the increased ROM HSPUs. Much more taxing than the boucing headstand verson of Diane. Tough workout!

I made a video of the ordeal, but I did not realize YouTube will only post 10 minutes. The video is still uploading....I really need to get better at the HSPUs so I finish under 10 minutes!

Patrick Donnelly
03-29-2008, 08:41 AM
Re: Kelly
Download a free video editor called VirtualDub. (The DivX video codec is also nice, for letting you save compressed low-memory videos.)

With it, you can either trim a segment of the video out, or you can save the video as multiple parts, and have certain parts played in fast forward. For example, you'd save the 21 rep part in normal speed, and the 9 rep part at normal speed. The middle 15, being less exciting than the start or end, could be edited to play at a 1.5x framrate, then saved. Using Windows Movie Maker, the three clips could then be appended into one video, and have subtitles added, such as "this part in 1.5x fast forward."

Kelly Moore
04-02-2008, 01:51 PM
Thanks Patrick...there were so many choices and I am so computer dumb that I couldn't figure out what I needed.

To accomodate YouTube's 10 minute time limit, I did "short" Almost Righteous Dead Stop Diane: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szUr6-Up0Vo. 15-12-9 of double bodyweight (225#) dead stop trap bar deadlifts and HSPUs off 6" blocks.

It kicked my butt.

Patrick Donnelly
04-13-2008, 06:36 AM
CrossFit WOD 4/13/2008

Five rounds for total reps of:
135 pound Thruster, 15 seconds
Rest 45 Seconds
50 pound Weighted pull-up, 15 seconds
Rest 45 Seconds
Burpees, 15 seconds
Rest 45 seconds

Well, I wasn't expecting that.

I do have a concern that 15 seconds isn't really enough to do many reps though. With the speed of such heavy thrusters and pull-ups, you'd be lucky to get 3-4 per round. Burpees probably have about a 3s turnover rate. A good amount of the rest times will probably be used in preparing for the next set too... Like having to continually strap 50lbs to you, and get up to the bar... Or returning the barbell to the rack after dropping it in the last round.

Steven Low
04-13-2008, 08:18 AM
If the 50 lbs pullups weren't limited by strength you could probably bang out like 10 or so at the very least. Same with the thrusters to an extent (well, at least Greg Amundson doing them for heavy Fran.. heh heh).

Burpees do have a very slow turnover though.

I think this is meant to be a very, very strength biased "metcon" if you wanna call it that.

Patrick Donnelly
04-13-2008, 09:40 AM
If the 50 lbs pullups weren't limited by strength you could probably bang out like 10 or so at the very least.

If you're kipping.

I know the default pull-up is kipping, but I don't think many men will want to kip with a weight between their legs... For obvious reasons.

Steven Low
04-13-2008, 10:48 AM
Should be possible without kipping although you'd have to have a very large strength requirement.

They do make weight vests > 50 lbs ya know. Either that or you can hang the weights low enough that you can hold them with your ankes.