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Billy_Brummel
12-04-2006, 11:35 AM
If I'm looking to shed fat, are MetCon workouts the best way to go? I was thinking of doing something similar to what Steve had mentioned in another thread - maybe like One Lift a Day followed up with some body weight/metcon work. (which sounds sort of like Cosgrove's deal, but I don't know since I haven't read the book/PDF)

And, as a follow up, would a 5 days on, 2 off of that be too taxing?
(especially considering that 1-2x a week it would take place in mid-fast)

Steve Shafley
12-04-2006, 11:49 AM
There's really no reason why it wouldn't work. The primary driver behind fat loss is always going to be the diet.

Billy_Brummel
12-04-2006, 12:23 PM
sweet, thanks Steve.

One thing I forgot to post earlier: Does anyone know of a resource (anyone on xfit, other sites) where I might find a list of metcon workouts/ workout ideas?

Steve Shafley
12-04-2006, 01:19 PM
Ross Enamait's "Rosstraining.com" and his message board.

Scrapper's trainforstrength.com

http://fitness-solution.blogspot.com/

A lot of the XF affiliates publish their very own WOD too. You can always check that out too.

Billy_Brummel
12-04-2006, 02:12 PM
thanks again Steve.

Robb Wolf
12-04-2006, 03:48 PM
Sounds good to go. Keep us posted on your progress!

Mike ODonnell
12-04-2006, 06:04 PM
What's your take on Staley's EDT routine for fat loss? (I know Mike Mahler preaches it with KBs)....taking 2 compound exercises...say a deadlift and push press, weights are at a 10Rmax, and SS sets of 5 going back and forth for a set time...like 15-20min. I imagine the GH response for fat loss would be through the roof.

Steve Shafley
12-04-2006, 08:30 PM
Ah, yeah, the gymjones.com site has lots of stuff too.

Allen Yeh
12-05-2006, 05:25 AM
http://coachrut.blogspot.com/

Danny John
12-05-2006, 08:25 AM
We forgot to mention that the OLAD is the Intellectual Property of Daniel John...who stole it from others fair and square.

Honestly, if you went with a "Green Face" Diet (Protein and Veggies) and took the OLAD seriously...it would work very well. Cosgrove would maybe recommend adding two to three cardios a week...intense intervals like Tabatas...so you would have to figure this out somehow, too...

Billy_Brummel
12-05-2006, 09:42 AM
You're right.

I did 7x5 Military Press last night- ouch.

Then a 2 mile run for time - double ouch.

Might try cycling in the cardio/metcon and really focus hard on the numbers for OLAD (DISCLAIMER: OLAD is the intellectual property of Daniel John and is not to be used without the express written consent on Daniel John, LLC.):D

Steve Shafley
12-05-2006, 12:05 PM
Billy:

Depending on how advanced a lifter you are, you might consider a more full body kind of workout to accompany your MetCon stuff.

Maybe instead of just an OHP, an clean + OHP workout.

Real quick, what were the weights used in your 7x5 sets? Just curious.

Billy_Brummel
12-05-2006, 12:20 PM
Steve,

wouldn't consider myself an advanced lifter.

weights from last night were 65, 75, 95, 115, 95, 105, 75 - BW is 215
(trying to do the "wave" that DJ talked about in the OLAD (copyrighted) article)

Billy_Brummel
12-05-2006, 12:22 PM
Steve

The whole body workout + metcon sounds like a good idea, I might mess around with it later this week

Steve Shafley
12-05-2006, 01:30 PM
I guess I've just found that a more "whole" body lift works better than just stuff like a bench or a press.

I did quite well on the power clean and squat with an OLAD format, but not nearly as well with bench and press. I did it 4x weekly, and it was a very short and sweet workout.

Think about doing short stuff that encompasses the whole body.

Maybe a big "full body" movement coupled with an upper body movement like the press and chin (or weighted chin)

I'm thinking

Squat + Chin
Squat + Press
Clean or Power Clean + Press
Deadlift + Chin or Press

Etc...and you don't even need to do the OLs

Front Squat + Press or even thruster...I'm sure you can come up with as many as I can.

Not something that's going to add a lot of time to the whole thing, but just give you a greater, full body stimulus.

And, maybe every few weeks do the MetCon first, and train the heavy stuff in a fatigued condition (low skill lifts, please), just to throw a monkey wrench into the works.

Billy_Brummel
12-05-2006, 02:01 PM
Steve,

I like it.

So, what you're thinking is to combine it all into one movement if possible?
(ie squat down, come up and press would be one rep)

Steve Shafley
12-05-2006, 02:22 PM
If you can, and if you don't sacrifice the weight for repetitions.

Craig Cooper
12-06-2006, 09:03 AM
I would think that the OLAD + Metcon would be a great way to improve your skill/strength with the more complicated lifts while keeping your conditioning high. I've been experiementing with that recently, seems to be working well. What's the format for OLAD, and what's the premise?

Robb Wolf
12-06-2006, 11:21 AM
Billy-
That is a Bad Ass Lionel Ritchie photo! yawza!

Steve Shafley
12-06-2006, 11:50 AM
OLAD is "one lift a day"

It's a workout that Dan has talked about for years, and that I've done with good results as well. It's not a workout for those who are just learning the lifts, though. I'd recommend more frequency and less intensity for those learning.

Let me post some old emails and stuff that I kept from when Dan and I discussed this way back in 1999 or so. It's long, bear with me and my somewhat less seasoned self from 1999.

Dan posted his One Lift a Day stuff at the OSSTB. The text of the post follows. A link to Dan's site is posted at the end. For those who have never went through Dan's site, I thoroughly recommend it.

The One Lift a Day Program

Perhaps two of the most interesting articles ever to appear in Strength and Health were the two part “The American System” from the “Behind the Scenes” column by Tommy Suggs. For the purposes of this review, I will only look at the “One lift a day” guys, but the “Hungarian Systems” was the second most popular. The Hungarian System basically alternated light and heavy weeks, light being 60 percent, and heavy cycling through a classic percentage wave. Lifting days alternated between power days and “classic” or full lift days. Personally, I used this system for a month but I really overtrained. The workouts took a long time and I used very little support systems, partners, whirlpools, saunas, drugs, et al. So, I feel I cannot comment well on the program.

Note: these are the training weeks for the third week before the Trials

The three heavy weights on the “One lift a day:”
Joe Dube-Olympic Team Member-Heavyweight Class
Olympic Tryouts-462 Press, 336 Snatch, 468 Clean and Jerk, 1267 Total

Monday

Press: 135 for 5, 135 for 5, 225 for 3, 295 for 2, 355 for 2, 405 for 2, 425 for 2
Clean High Pulls: 225 for 3, 305 for 3, 375 for 3, 425 for 2, 450 for 2, 480 for 3 singles

Tuesday

Back Squats: 225 for 5, 315 for 5, 405 for 3, 505 for 3, 575 for 3, 625 for 3, 675 for 3, 700 for 1

Wednesday

Snatches (Performs power snatches until weight forces him into full snatch position) 135 for 3, 135 for 3, 205 for 2, 245 for 2, 275 for 2, 295 for 2, 310 for 2, 325 for 1

Thursday

Clean and Jerk: 225 for 3, 305 for 2, 355 for 1, 385 for 1, 415 for 1, 435 for 3 singles
Snatch High Pulls : 225 for 3, 275 for 3, 295 for 3, 315 for 3, 335 for 3, 355 for 3

Saturday

Work up to a light poundage on the three Olympic Lifts

George “Ernie” Pickett
Olympic Team Member- Heavyweight Class
Lifts at Trials: 457 Press, 341 Snatch, 462 Clean and Jerk, 1261 Total

Training Program
Monday
Snatch: 135 for 5, 205 for 3, 255 for 2, 295 for 2, 305 for 1, 320 for 3 singles

Tuesday
Seated Incline: 135 for 5, 205 for 3, 295 for 2, 315 for 2, 335 for 2, 345 for 2, 355 for 2

Wednesday
Cleans: 225 for 3, 305 for 2, 355 for 2, 355 for 2, 385 for 1, 405 for 1, 420 for 3 singles

Thursday
Front Squats: 225 for 5, 305 for 3, 355 for 3, 405 for 3, 455 for 3, 500 for 2

Saturday
Approximately 85 % of limit for a single on Olympic Lifts (Note: every once in a while will go all out on Saturday.)

Bob Bednarski
Olympic Team Alternate-Heavyweight Class
Lifts in Trials: 424 press, 358 Snatch, 451 Clean and Jerk, 1234 Total

Monday
Military Press: 135 for 5, 205 for 3, 250 for 3, 250 for 3, 275 for 3, 300 for 3, 325 for 3
Note: Dave Turner, a fine O lifter and Math teacher, did the percentages on this and feels Bednarski may have gone too light here. He got behind on the press at the trials and had to make huge jumps to try to edge out Dube and Pickett.

Tuesday
Cleans: 135 for 5, 225 for 3, 300 for 1, 350 for 1, 400 for 1, 425 for 3 singles

Wednesday
Squat: 315 for 5, 405 for 5, 475 for 5, 525 for 5, 575 for 5, 625 for 1

Thursday
Snatch: 135 for 5, 205 for 3, 250 for 1, 285 for 1, 305 for 1, 325 for 3 singles

Saturday
Work up in three Olympic lifts to approximately 1200 total

Sunday
Squats: same sets as Wednesday, except skip the last set

The roots of this training for Bednarski came from the time he went from a 950 total to 1100 in four months. He moved up a weight class and focused on weak points, especially his legs.

A typical week:
Monday Morning:
Squats: 325 for 5, 375 for 5, 425 for 5, 475 for 5, 500 for 2, 525 for 1
Evening
Press: 225 for 5, 255 for 3, 285 for 3, 305 for 2, 325 for 1, 340 for 1
Clean and Jerk: 355 for 2, 375 for 1, 400 for 1, 400 for 1, 415 for 1, 400 for 1

Wednesday Morning
Squats: 305 for 5, 350 for 5, 400 for 5, 450 for 3, 475 for 2, 500 for 1
Evening
Snatch: 225 for 5, 255 for 3, 285 for 2, 305 for 1, 315 for 1, 325 for 1
Clean and Jerk: 355 for 2, 375 for 1, 400 for 1, 400 for 1, 415 for 1, 415 for 1

Saturday
Squats: 350 for 5, 375 for 5, 400 for 5, 450 for 3, 475 for 2, 500 for 1, 525 for 1
Snatch: 225 for 5, 255 for 3, 285 for 2, 305 for 1, 315 for 1, 315 for 1, 315 for 1

Sunday
Try limit on three Olympic Lifts

In December of 1968, this workout was reported in his “Lifter of the Year” article:
Monday: Presses, working up to 5 sets of three with a moderate poundage-350 to 385 pounds.
Tuesday: Snatches, up to five sets of three with 305.
Wednesday: Squats up to three reps with 450-500.
Thursday: Clean and jerk up to 3-5 singles with 405-425.
Friday: Rest
Saturday: Total or work heavy on two lifts.
Sunday: Squats up to three reps with 450-500.

One forgotten little workout that I like of Bednarski’s was his first “Lifter of the Year” award after he did so well at the 1966 World Championships. Best lifts at the time: 402, 352, 446
Monday
Noon workout
Squat: 305 for 5, 355 for 5, 405 for 5, 455 for 5, 505 for 3
Afternoon
Military Press: 132 for 5, 220 for 5, 264 for 3 (for five sets of 3)

Tuesday
Isometric Work: 3 pulls, bottom, midway, top, 1 squat midway, 3 presses, start, middle, finish

Wednesday
Noon
Squat: Same as Monday

Afternoon
Snatch 132 for 5, 220 for 3, 264 for 2, 286 for 1, 308 for five singles

Thursday
Power Cleans: 132 for 5, 220 for 3, 264 for 3, 286 for 3, 308 for 3 sets of 3

Saturday
Work up to three Olympic Lifts to 90-95 percent of limit.
Two weeks before a contest he goes up to starting attempts.
He gets at least three days’ rest before a meet.
This is the program that I stole to do my best O lifting. Of course, it worked so well, I dropped it and did something else.

One Lift A Day...1999 Conversations with Dan John My one lift a day set up initially looked like this:

Dan,
Nice to hear from you, thanks for dropping me the note. I did want ask a few questions and listen to your suggestions on the subject:

1. Integration of cardio and strength training. Unfortunately for my lifting, I have started my cardio training for rugby. This generally includes sprint-interval, short hill runs, and an occasional distance run. (2-3 miles). I was very attracted to the one lift per session style, because it seemed to offer a way to optimize recuperation and to allow me to increase my strength during this period. A rugby match consists of 90-100 minutes of sprinting, tackling, pushing, shoving, and occasionally brawling, just to let you know what kind of rigors I must endure, since I am unsure of your familiarity with the sport.

2. Rotation of the big exercises. I am planning on rotating exercises when they become stale. I think I included this in my first post on the subject, but to re-hash:

Bench press variations: regular, incline, decline, dumbbell
variations, partial ROM, bottom start

Squat variations: squat, front squat, bottom squat

Pull variations: power clean, power snatch, high pull variations, ballistic shrug.

Overhead press variations: press, push press, dumbbell press, 1 arm dumbbell press

Do you think this might allow me to train without taking a "rest" week? Alternatively, I could drop all weight work and just perform sandbag and sled pulling. I have straps for my sled that allows me to do upper body pulls, pushes, explosive work on it, etc. Additionally, I am planning on using the sled for an "recovery" type workout as per Louie Simmons recommendations (for more information on this, read his GPP article in the archives of "Strength-Online" at www.deepsquatter.com/strength/main.htm)

3. What about performing a few repetitions of a pylometric exercise instead of speed work? I would use depth jumps and drop push ups off of small blocks for the squat and bench press. I would probably just stick with the
speed work for the pulls and overhead press.

Anyway, here is my final breakdown, starting today:

Sunday: rugby cv training
Monday: Noon: bench press/ballistic push up
PM: 1 tricep exercise/1 back exercise for ~5 sets
Tuesday: Noon: squat/depth jumps
PM: sled work
Wednesday: AM: rugby cv training
Thursday: Noon: overhead press/dumbbell speed press
PM: 1 tricep exercise/1 back exercise
Friday: AM: rugby cv training
Noon: Power clean/dumbbell clean
Saturday: --rest--

Looking back on this, that seems a tad ambitious. My actual breakdown of training looked like this:

Monday: squat, jumps with dumbbells in my hands
Tuesday: bench, push up plyometric drops off 6" platforms
Thursday: power clean
Friday: overhead press, light fast dumbbell presses

Dan's reply to the above email follows:

Steve, the "speed work" is plyos! We found that "Mixing" lifting with plyos, not only a huge timesaver, led our athletes to be more explosive, measured by vertical jump tests. In addition, and a benefit to you, you work
explosively while tired, which will carry over into rugby. Yes, I know the sport well.

On cardio, it is always difficult to mimic competition conditioning. The Soviets discovered this with soccer, guys were excellent at drills, but lost the skills in games. Someone simply had everyone take pulse tests. During the drill tests, pulses were at 80, in games 180. So, they devised ways of testing skills with the higher pulse rates, soon the players games skills improved.

So, what does this mean? Pure cardio rarely carries over into sports, pure skill training rarely carries over into sports. Your sled idea has merit for rugby. Now, devise a way to mimic a game. Perhaps, 30 varied "bouts" of pulls? 10 seconds, 3, 20, 5, 3, 8, etc... where you may jog easily for 20-30 in between? This seems to fit what most rugby players do in a game. Certainly, throw in a finisher, too, at the end. Some psycho long pull or something.

The recommended "week off" is just something I, we, have seen too many with multisport athletes, i.e. guys who use lifting to improve another discipline. The body can only take so much. Like a rubber band, if you keep stretching it, over time it breaks, not snaps. I am only pointing out that
you should plan this time off, rather than be forced into it by injury or illness. You choose, of course, but experience shows this to be true.

Whenever I break this simple rule, I pay. Now, if I am only lifting, this can be an "easy" week, but you have to ease off sometimes, unless you are a raw beginner.

Keep me informed,
thanks
Dan



He also had this to say about rest weeks, which I still find to be true.

One thing, I don't necessarily want to put on the big board: you need every fourth week either off doing this or devoted to play and fun. Three weeks on, one week off. If not, after a few weeks, you will get bored, injuried
or stifled in progress. It is better to plan the days off, rather than be forced to take them


One Lift A Day...1999 Conversations with Dan John Here's the repetition scheme:

Dan,

What do you think about a triple wave with a 3/2/1, 3/2/1, 3/2/1, repetition scheme? I find I am concentrating mostly on progressively heavier singles, then dropping back to a triple or two before heading back up. I have used this wave with some success before. Each corresponding wave would be a
bit heavier than the earlier wave. This pattern seems to be working, and I am attempting to add weight to my highest single as often as I can.

Oh well, anyway, I did squats/dumbbell jumps today, and worked my way up 10 lbs heavier at my highest weight than last week. I decided to do a bit of ab work, if there is time remaining, but nothing else. I finished in 40
minutes today, but was dawdling in between sets a bit



Dan's reply to this email was:

You may find the middle wave to be the heaviest. It works really well, in fact, at the Olympic training center, they do four of these waves in a row. One thing, though, be sure to measure this program against your goals. You may need the 5's and 8's for your sport, the added muscle mass and perhaps the conditioning. You may think about
Week one: waves of 10, 8, 5, 1
Week two: waves of 5, 3, 1
Week three: waves of 3, 2, 1
Week four: unload
Don't ignore the high reps! They provide some relaxation against the heavy loads of triples, doubles and singles. On week one, that single could be just an easy heavy, even as low as 80%. The Cuban lifters used to live at 80% singles, with 10 sets of 10 in the squat and "muscle moves." They would dump the volume before meets and be very fresh.

And by the way, if you are done under forty minutes in a squat work out, you weren't fooling around. Good workout.

Keep me informed. By the way, when I add ideas to your ideas, I'm not trying to one up you, just trying to give you some food for thought.

And that's pretty much it. One of my first conversations with Dan, and I still can read it over and find things I have forgotten.

The results of the One Lift A Day experiment?

The first cycle: Matched all previous PRs in the lifts used.
The second cycle: 10 lb pr in squat, 15 lbs pr in power clean, 15 lb pr in overhead press. I have to check, but maybe it was a 5 lb pr in bench.

The third cycle? Well, I never did that. I'll quote Dan here, loosely "Since it was working, I decided to try something else."

The key concepts of this rather long missive are:

1. Specialization works
2. Speed work works
3. A week off lifting, or doing light athletic activities every 3-6 weeks is essential to maintain long term progress (this is the rule I break so often)

I am sure there are more.

Looking through the Archives... I found this:

Here are descriptions of the exercises I plan on using:

Bench press variations: bench press, incline press, decline press, close grip bench bottom position bench, bench lockouts. Pick an new exercise to work on every 3-5 weeks, always trying for a new personal record.

Squat variations: squat, front squat, bottom position squat, squat lockouts, high and low box squats. Rotate exercises every 3-5 weeks as per the bench press

Deadlift variations: deadlift, partial deadlift, high pull, deadlift on platform (extending ROM), trap bar deadlift

Rotate exercises every 3-5 weeks

Bench press assistance: 3 categories

Triceps: rolling dumbbell extensions, triceps extensions variations (to throat, chin, forehead), weighted 1/4 dips

Back: chin-up variations, lat pulldown variations, rowing variations

Shoulders: shoulder press variations (barbell, dumbbell, 1 or 2 arm, press
behind neck),push press, lateral raises (to front, side, or rear)

Squat/Deadlift assistance: good morning variations, cable pullthroughs, stiff-leg deadlifts, high rep partial deadlifts, hyperextensions, reverse hyperextensions, power cleans, power snatches, power shrugs, glute/ham raises, manual hamstring curls, step ups, 1 leg squats, lunges

I am sure that many will recognize the Westside Barbell Club influence int his routine, especially variation in the exercises, and some of the assistance exercises listed. I also couldn't come up with anything better
than performing the competition lifts on Saturday, and might drop that and only perform it once a month. Additionally I was thinking about moving everything a day down, making Thursday and Saturday rest only days. I have also come up with a push/pull/squat variation of this, providing myself with
a more well rounded overall strength program. It has been suggested that I double wave the max effort work. I find this plan attractive due to the short, intense, concentrated training session, and hope to optimize recovery on it.

Well, I apologize again for the length of this post, any opinions are welcome:

Steve Shafley

Here are some addtional points from Dan:

**********************************************

Steve, the hard thing about this program is that you only do one exercise. At Utah State, I threw the shot, disc and hammer. So, if I did poor in the disc, I could get back in the other two. This program is like the years I only threw the disc: there is not a lot of ways to salvage a poor workout.

So, here is what helped me.

The double pyramid or "wave"

Rather than just going heavy up the pyramid, Dave Turner and I tried the double. You can certainly use this in the powerlifts.
Power Snatch
135 for 5
205 for 5
225 for 5
245 for 1
255 for 1
Start to struggle, go lighter!
185 for 3 (just killed the weight)
205 for 1
225 for 1
245 for 1
265 for 1, that was easy?
(Actual workout from journal and I included the notes)

The other idea is mixed training. Now ignore this if you wish, but read a Russian thing that said to mix a 30% lift for pure speed after your core lift.
For benches, drop on the floor after each set and try to do clapping pushups.
For squats, you could jump with dumbbells
For deadlifts, cleans with dumbbells

For the o lifts, I had to be clever, so I invented the "whip snatch" basically, a snatch from the crotch for 8 quick reps. Clean grip snatches for the C and J. It seemed to work.

Looks like this:
Clean and Jerk 275 for 3; step back to waiting bar "loaded with 85ish pounds," set of 8 clean grip snatches, as fast as I can. Full Rest.

You will find yourself fresher than ever in a few weeks. Also, I began to find that I only had to squat twice a month. I squatted then jumped. Since you are going so heavy and hard, you just don't need the pounding. In other words, there is no cycling here, when you do a lift, you really go after it. Now, a powerlifter may have to do things differently, I don't know. I was clean, too, so maybe I couldn't do what others could do in the gym. When I cut back to biweekly squat workouts, my cleans were unaffected. I certainly felt fresher.

One final comment: can you really deadlift every Saturday? That lift kicks the crap out of me. Maybe this would be a lift to do only monthly during your Saturday total. Let's be honest: will you lose your technique on this lift? I don't think so.

Be sure to keep me posted.
Dan

**********************************************

Steve here again:

As an aside, I have changed the program to be a more all around strength program, additionally, I have pretty much dropped assistance sessions, and will start this kind of work when I start another westside type cycle:

Monday: bench/ballistic push ups
Tuesday: squat/jumps with dumbbells
Wednesday: off
Thursday: overhead standing press/fast dumbbell presses
Friday: power clean/snatch pulls from hang

Additionally I am pulling a sled 2-3X weekly, a great workout, and doing hill sprints 2-3X weekly, another great workout.

I will rotate variations of the exercises in and out as needed. I am also thinking of adding stiff leg deadlifts or good mornings in on Wednesdays. Workouts are about 25-35 minutes long. I alternate neck work and ab work every other session as well.

Sorry, this whole message is huge, but I feel there is lots of good stuff in here.

Steve

Billy_Brummel
12-06-2006, 01:52 PM
Robb,

Lionel Ritchie? Who's he?

That's my senior portrait from high school.

Mike ODonnell
12-06-2006, 04:50 PM
Steve, you posted (someone show me how to do that cool blue indentation for quoting):

"Monday: bench/ballistic push ups
Tuesday: squat/jumps with dumbbells
Wednesday: off
Thursday: overhead standing press/fast dumbbell presses
Friday: power clean/snatch pulls from hang"

Now I assume this is coming from a pure strength based cycle? Now if size and strength were your goal, does this have enough volume to enduce size? Or would the rep scheme be changed for size and strength cycles?

I remember hearing about something like this years ago...but never put an effort into doing. Might be an interesting cycle to add.

Steve Shafley
12-06-2006, 05:19 PM
I don't know if it's the best way to approach training for size, but the volume was there:

I would typically try to do 3 waves.

Like for bench:

Warm up: 45x10, 135x10, 185x10
Wave 1: 225x8, 245x5, 275x3
Wave 2: 275x5, 295x3, 315x2
Wave 3: 315x3, 335x2, 355x1

And do ~ 5 explosive push ups in between each set.

That's some fairly concentrated loading on the supporting musculature for that movement.

This gets done quick. I wouldn't completely rest in between sets, and moved quickly.

Like I mentioned above...this is for someone who knows what they are doing and has a bit of experience. I feel this way because I just don't think beginners can get as much out of a set as an experienced lifter.

Steve Shafley
12-06-2006, 05:21 PM
There are also levels of ballistic push ups.

I really got a lot out of push-up depth drops, where I would drop off boxes about 8" high and reverse direction and hop back up on the boxes as quickly as I could. This did have more impact on the shoulders though.

Dave Van Skike
12-11-2006, 09:28 AM
Steve, Dan et al.

Question: In and OLAD program with body comp goals, would you look to increasing volume or load week to week or possibly both? I'm looking for advice on total number of sets/reps week to week.

Background: I just started a OLAD (trademark DJ) program. I am on cal/carb restricted diet and have had good success with it so far. I'm transitioning from a pure strength program (9 or so sets, heavy with lots of rest. two sessions per day) to more of a strength/gpp-ish program. The last program worked well with low Kcals. and the two a days kept overall volume high.

Based on some of your prior writing on the subject, I thought to try the OLAD, albeit tailored to my schedule and capacity.

I'm trying a rep/set progression I haven't used before, essentially 8/6/4 in week one, 6/4/2 in week two and 3/2/1 in week three. I'm huge fan of low rep ladders, 1/2/3, 1/2/3, 1/2/3 so I figure to do the opposite of what has been comfortable for me.

Template so far is: 12+ sets per day, weight goes up each set.

Mon: Squat-

3 sets each of OHS, FS, BS and 1/4 Squat/Jumps.

Tues: OH press-

Same as above. Each set taken from the floor with a clean. Military press, Push press, Push jerk, Jerk, finish with press outs.

Wed: Deadlifts

Single leg DL, Clean grip DL, Regular Grip-wider stance, Pulls from rack.

Thurs: off

Friday: Metcon with KB complexes and sandbags (harder)

Saturday: Metcon with BB. Basically complexes of squat, clean and press and Deadlifts (easier and for speed)

Sunday off.

Danny John
12-11-2006, 10:53 AM
I wrote a bunch of stuff, then erased it. Try it...let us know. I'm not sure about mixing this stuff...in fact, the OLAD alone should bury you...

Dave Van Skike
12-11-2006, 11:20 AM
I wrote a bunch of stuff, then erased it. Try it...let us know. I'm not sure about mixing this stuff...in fact, the OLAD alone should bury you...

Thanks Dan. Today is day One. So far.... I feel buried-ish. Reps over 5 just leave me beat.

I'll post back on Saturday.

Dave Van Skike
12-15-2006, 02:34 PM
Week one of OLAD+Metcon experiment nearly complete.

Tomorrow AM is a metcon day. Burpees and pull-ups are on the docket. At this point I am totally smoked. Dan is right, OLAD alone is pretty brutal if you do it right. I'm not even sure I'm doing it right and it's beating me up. Hopefully next week will be better.

Observations:

As far as dieting while doing this, my take is forget it. All the appetite suppressing goodness that I get from short metcon sessions is out the window and I'm ravenous. Maybe that means it works for fat loss but so far, it's been tougher to control appetite. I'm eating very clean at about 2500 Kcal per day.

Another factor is that I'm using a timer to keep rest at 50-70 seconds max between sets and I'm out of the gym in under an 45 minutes. Also, I've been using a rep range this week that is a little higher than usual for me (sets of 8,6,4). Both these add up to individual sessions that are kind of painful, more like a hypertrophy type of thing.


Monday: Squat day

AM: 12 sets, bar weight goes up each set, OHS, FS, Back squats and 1/4 squats in a wide stance

PM: jump rope, recovery no Metcon, JS band assisted stretching, mobility

Tuesday: Overhead presses

AM 12 sets, same as above
Military, Push press, Push jerk, Jerk, lockouts
PM: jump rope, JS band assited stretching, mobility work. dynamic DB presses light


Wednesday: Metcon:

AM off,
PM. Tabata heavy bag, (knees+ elbows.) 8 minutes total, then jump rope cool down

Thursday: Low pull

AM Deadlifts: 10 sets, same as above: Single leg DL, snatch grip, clean grip,

PM, 3 sets heavy rack pulls from below knee

Friday:High pull

AM none
PM, 12 sets, samesame, DB power cleans from hang, BB Power cleans from hang, hang squat cleans, hi pulls from rack.

Danny John
12-19-2006, 07:08 AM
I'm waiting for the updates here. Rarely could my athletes get out of bed...much less train...after the "real" squat day.

Seven sets of five. Max squat on the bar...three damn good spotters. Go "down" under control. Try coming up, spotters pull your butt up. That is one. Do five.
End of five: step back and try to jump up and touch ceiling ten times.

Five minute rest. Repeat for a total of seven sets. Paul Northway did this (age 16-17) with a first set of 405. Far too heavy. Then, 315. 225 on third. 135 on fourth. His feet didn't clear the floor after the third set on his jumps. Sore for over a week...

That, my friends, is OLAD.

Allen Yeh
12-19-2006, 07:24 AM
OLAD is like many workouts a lot harder in real life than it looks like on paper.....This workout kicked my butt.

Danny John
12-19-2006, 08:00 AM
Honestly, Allen...every workout I list is harder in life than on paper. That is what always cracks me up when I get emails like "If Tabata Front squats are so good, why don't you do them every day."

Try it with 65 pounds and get 8 on every set at least. Call me the next time you think you want to do it...

Billy_Brummel
12-19-2006, 08:08 AM
Dan,

Just got home from 6x3 DL morning. I'm seriously feeling it.

And now I realize the topic of this whole posting was a moot point. No met con needed. I'm a believer in OLAD.

Squats are Thursday. However, I only have access to a crummy Smith machine, so I use the plate racks on it as a squat rack. No spotters either. But I will throw in the VJ's in between sets.

Do you happen to know Tony Ciarelli?

Danny John
12-19-2006, 08:27 AM
Just the name...why?

Allen Yeh
12-19-2006, 09:27 AM
Honestly, Allen...every workout I list is harder in life than on paper. That is what always cracks me up when I get emails like "If Tabata Front squats are so good, why don't you do them every day."

Try it with 65 pounds and get 8 on every set at least. Call me the next time you think you want to do it...

I actually tried it at least(tabata front squats) and now everytime I think about trying it again I conveniently come up with some excuse in which I need to be able to move my legs around like walking for example!

Billy_Brummel
12-19-2006, 09:42 AM
Dan,

He's a HS football/throws coach near me and I was gonna try to contact him and see about sneaking into his weight room. Thought I'd try and associate myself with people he knew so as to show my trustworthiness.

Thanks

Mike ODonnell
12-19-2006, 09:47 AM
And now I realize the topic of this whole posting was a moot point. No met con needed. I'm a believer in OLAD.

Bingo.....Yatzee....and "You sank my Battleship!" Fat loss is more hormonally and nutritionally driven. Big heavy (& explosive) compound movements take care of that for you.

Dave Van Skike
12-19-2006, 11:18 AM
Another update for me on this:


Yesterday was squats again, my lifts had all gone down from the week before. Granted, I'm a beginner in most respects but my back squat was lower than my front squat. When I tried to add jumps as described by DJ above, almost lost my lunch. Very difficult to complete to session and to walk. Lots of reasons for that. Partly the neg. Kcal balance partly accumulated fatigue I think. Or it's just freaking brutal.


Bingo.....Yatzee....and "You sank my Battleship!" Fat loss is more hormonally and nutritionally driven. Big heavy (& explosive) compound movements take care of that for you.


On the original question, the Jury is still out for me. I don't disagree on the nutritional and hormonal part. The real question is which templates for "big and explosive." So far, OLAD is way too hard to add metcon to. Maybe as a spice but not a side dish. And, the recovery is so long it may not be effective in a neg. kcal balance. So, big yes. effective for fatloss? Not sure. Add metcon? Oh Hell No.

For me, the best template for fat loss has been really tight diet, 8-9 hours of sleep and the good ole 6 day a week 5x5 program, with simple big lifts and lots of NEPA.

Danny John
12-19-2006, 11:37 AM
This is nice. Finally, somebody tried to mix the OLAD and this "other stuff" and I sat here encouraging this all the way...


Knowing it can't actually happen. What drives me to drink (thank God for you all) is this idea that doing pushups mixed with something else is like squatting 405 for seven sets of five....each set followed by jumping. The metabolic hit is beyond belief in an honest OLAD program. You simply can't drum up the ability to do "one more thing." Yes, I know that snatching PVC for 30 reps in a minute is exhausting...but when I used to Power Snatch 225 for 35 reps in this workout PLUS the quick whip snatches with 95 for a total of 70ish reps...the hit was unbelieveable. AND, it was the five minute rest that killed me. I took long enough to recover so I could go hard again.

Ah...science.

Dave Van Skike
12-19-2006, 12:40 PM
I now grok this thread...........The OLAD IS the metcon......

you are conditioning your (metabolism) self to reboot for another massive dose of tension. No wonder I'm sweating for two hours after.



This is nice. Finally, somebody tried to mix the OLAD and this "other stuff" and I sat here encouraging this all the way...


Knowing it can't actually happen. What drives me to drink (thank God for you all) is this idea that doing pushups mixed with something else is like squatting 405 for seven sets of five....each set followed by jumping. The metabolic hit is beyond belief in an honest OLAD program. You simply can't drum up the ability to do "one more thing." Yes, I know that snatching PVC for 30 reps in a minute is exhausting...but when I used to Power Snatch 225 for 35 reps in this workout PLUS the quick whip snatches with 95 for a total of 70ish reps...the hit was unbelieveable. AND, it was the five minute rest that killed me. I took long enough to recover so I could go hard again.

Ah...science.

Ron Nelson
12-19-2006, 12:57 PM
I'm waiting for the updates here. Rarely could my athletes get out of bed...much less train...after the "real" squat day.

Seven sets of five. Max squat on the bar...three damn good spotters. Go "down" under control. Try coming up, spotters pull your butt up. That is one. Do five.
End of five: step back and try to jump up and touch ceiling ten times.

Five minute rest. Repeat for a total of seven sets. Paul Northway did this (age 16-17) with a first set of 405. Far too heavy. Then, 315. 225 on third. 135 on fourth. His feet didn't clear the floor after the third set on his jumps. Sore for over a week...

That, my friends, is OLAD.

OK, so I was going to ask if Cosgrove's strength routines from "The New Rules" could be considered OLAD (that's a trademark, the workout is actually copyrighted 2006). Example: Squat day; sets of 6-1-6-1-10-15 followed by supersetting Bulgarian split squats and step ups, followed by back extensions and Swiss ball crunches.

I would think that the max rep squat work followed by the supersets is very OLAD-like if not outright OLAD. Then I read the above post from the founder of the OLAD Institute and figured I would be somewhat off the mark. I will say this, following the Cosgrove plan seems to be leading to fat loss due to the gain of muscle and strength. I'm only on the second week of each workout, so it is too early to tell if I'm right.

If I ever get the balls to do a true OLAD, I'll let you know.

Oh, I've done EDT and liked it very much. Problem is, I'm horrible at writing things down while my chest is heaving and my lungs are searing.

Ron Nelson
12-19-2006, 12:59 PM
Oh, and is if I needed metcon on the off days; I coach soccer. Try doing drills with the kids and not sprint. Yeeouch.

Dave Van Skike
12-19-2006, 01:13 PM
I'm sure the sultan of OLAD will chime in but I'll offer my insight which is that I started this program with the intetion of doing just that. Overhead squat follwed by front squats followed by bvack sqauts followed by a wider powerliftign stance ...

Short answer. For me..not so good.

Gotta say, I'd prefer to warm up and then do one heavy set after another of of say front squats, my curretn fave or jsut overhead squats or just deadlifts. Coudl be my inexperience, but I lose my groove pretty quickly moving between differn movements as the laod reaches 80%+. Especially with stuff like squats and deads.

Maybe something like Shafley's recently posted couplet of front and back squats would work but it's difficult to express how hard this stuff is if you really stick to prescribed rest periods and keep the load high.

OK, so I was going to ask if Cosgrove's strength routines from "The New Rules" could be considered OLAD (that's a trademark, the workout is actually copyrighted 2006). Example: Squat day; sets of 6-1-6-1-10-15 followed by supersetting Bulgarian split squats and step ups, followed by back extensions and Swiss ball crunches.

I would think that the max rep squat work followed by the supersets is very OLAD-like if not outright OLAD. Then I read the above post from the founder of the OLAD Institute and figured I would be somewhat off the mark. I will say this, following the Cosgrove plan seems to be leading to fat loss due to the gain of muscle and strength. I'm only on the second week of each workout, so it is too early to tell if I'm right.

If I ever get the balls to do a true OLAD, I'll let you know.

Oh, I've done EDT and liked it very much. Problem is, I'm horrible at writing things down while my chest is heaving and my lungs are searing.

Billy_Brummel
12-19-2006, 02:43 PM
Dave,

Sounds like you may have missed something when it comes to OLAD. The intention is for you to do one version of one exercise a day. The original version does not involve any kind of stance changes, etc. That may make things a little more manageable for you.

Dan,

I want to make clear that I didn't post this thread with the thought that OLAD was inadequate or not-hard-enough. I was looking at it from the standpoint of an intermediate lifter who is not able to move the volume that lifters such as yourself are capable of moving in a single session and I thought I would have to compensate for that lack of volume with another component. I now know that OLAD has proven sufficient by all counts.

Dave Van Skike
12-19-2006, 05:39 PM
No misunderstanding, just a previously published variation on a theme.


"Day Three

An interesting squat variation that a few of us have been kicking around might help the strongman. Start off with a light squat exercise. So, do overhead squats. As the weight gets hard to manage, do front squats. Too heavy? Move to back squats" Finally, finish with some quarter squats or even a heavy loaded squat support. Try it. Think about fifteen to twenty sets with the weight on the bar going up each set. You're done. Go home."

http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do%3bjsessionid=8A18B92B6923062F71912E 7DEDB59BE9.hydra?article=05-123-training

Shafley seems to like this one as well.

"My other squat workout this week was OHS to FS to BS with a rising bar. That was fun too."



Dave,

Sounds like you may have missed something when it comes to OLAD. The intention is for you to do one version of one exercise a day. The original version does not involve any kind of stance changes, etc. That may make things a little more manageable for you.

Dan,

I want to make clear that I didn't post this thread with the thought that OLAD was inadequate or not-hard-enough. I was looking at it from the standpoint of an intermediate lifter who is not able to move the volume that lifters such as yourself are capable of moving in a single session and I thought I would have to compensate for that lack of volume with another component. I now know that OLAD has proven sufficient by all counts.

Jamila Bey
12-20-2006, 01:04 AM
I know better than to try this with squats... I'm planning to walk later.

Allen Yeh
12-20-2006, 03:23 AM
I know better than to try this with squats... I'm planning to walk later.

psst...Tabata front squats with 95 pounds is too heavy!

Not that I thought it was too light or anything when I was looking it at the bar or anything....

Allen Yeh
12-20-2006, 03:36 AM
OK, so I was going to ask if Cosgrove's strength routines from "The New Rules" could be considered OLAD (that's a trademark, the workout is actually copyrighted 2006). Example: Squat day; sets of 6-1-6-1-10-15 followed by supersetting Bulgarian split squats and step ups, followed by back extensions and Swiss ball crunches.

I would think that the max rep squat work followed by the supersets is very OLAD-like if not outright OLAD. Then I read the above post from the founder of the OLAD Institute and figured I would be somewhat off the mark. I will say this, following the Cosgrove plan seems to be leading to fat loss due to the gain of muscle and strength. I'm only on the second week of each workout, so it is too early to tell if I'm right.

If I ever get the balls to do a true OLAD, I'll let you know.

Oh, I've done EDT and liked it very much. Problem is, I'm horrible at writing things down while my chest is heaving and my lungs are searing.

Ron,
I've done the OLAD for a month and I'm currently on week 4 of the strength I of the New Rules of Lifting book. I would say it's not similiar at least not in phase I. I'm making myself stick with the workouts in The New Rules of Lifting because I have a notorious past of training ADD! haha.

Want to throw up a New Rules of Lifting Thread in one of the other categories so we can kind of compare?

Ron Nelson
12-20-2006, 09:23 AM
Ron,
I've done the OLAD for a month and I'm currently on week 4 of the strength I of the New Rules of Lifting book. I would say it's not similiar at least not in phase I. I'm making myself stick with the workouts in The New Rules of Lifting because I have a notorious past of training ADD! haha.

Want to throw up a New Rules of Lifting Thread in one of the other categories so we can kind of compare?

Alan,
We're on the same page. I just did the DL day for the second time last night with mixed results (not enough sleep and diet has been crap). I want to finish phase one and then start in on the thread.

I, too, suffer from training ADD. That's why CF was so easy. Go to site, get WOD, post, repeat. Tried the WSP from T-Nation, twice. Never finished. As Dan would say, and I paraphrase, "It was working, so I stopped." For the "New Rules," I have vowed to see the strength program out through all 3 phases and then trying Afterburn.

We'll see how that goes.

Dave Van Skike
12-21-2006, 10:28 AM
Second week observations.

two workouts a day, very bad. order of days very important for things like walking and holding up coffe cups.

ergo.

Monday Squat.
Tuesday Cleans
Wed. rest
Thursday Overhead press
Friday Deadlift.
Sa. sleep
Su. Sleep more


also, a good chaser for heavy reps seems to addding soem back off sets of very quick light lifts concentrating purely on bar speed, for recovery more than anything.

With the squat day this was holding bottom postion on overhead squat with just bar and then snapping off sets of 10-12

for cleans I used quick high pulls with a little weight.
today on OH presses, I added whip snatches and fast DB push presses for several back off sets. again, very light and very quick.

So far DOMS is reduced a little bit and I feel slighlty less crippled thorughout the day. Still super hungry. Again, not mixing well with diet for me but I am down another couple pounds this week over last.

This is nice. Finally, somebody tried to mix the OLAD and this "other stuff" and I sat here encouraging this all the way...


Ah...science.

Dave Van Skike
01-02-2007, 11:53 AM
OK, for anyone following this experiment here's the wrap up.

OLAD is brutal. I enjoyed it and will use it again with the same or similar lift progression as above. Key was adding weight to the bar each set and keeping the rest periods under 90 seconds, closer to a minute.

On week three, I got two tabata sessions: one on the erg. one on the heavy bag. These session were a little easier to handle than weeks one and two, where I could get virtually no metcon in.

My take is that OLAD with short rest periods is too demanding to add metcon to. Maybe with longer rest periods and surplus calories this could be done. My experience is that OLAD is not a good program for fat loss in and of itself. That said, it definitely helped my form on all the lifts.. I hit a PR triple and PR single in week three with dead lifts. I got a PR triple in front squat on week two.

Total weight loss for the four weeks with a mild caloric deficit was two pounds. Not stellar results but the program was worth it to get PR's in two pet lifts.

Time to switch to a new program more conducive to caloric deficit. Probably 5x5x5 with steady influx of walking and cycling.

Danny John
01-02-2007, 07:21 PM
Actually, I have been waiting for your results. I recommend five minute rests...I have no idea why anybody would do any less. My teenage boys doing this program could NOT get up the next day after squats. I still think people don't take this program serious enough.

I will see if I can find the original...

Danny John
01-02-2007, 07:25 PM
http://danjohn.org/page16

Now, when I did this, we switched Weeks One and Two and did the Overload squats on both weeks, not the Overhead.

Paul Northway, high school kid, started the squats with 405. After five "reps," he jumped. He basically passed out between sets...

Dave Van Skike
01-02-2007, 09:13 PM
Actually, I have been waiting for your results. I recommend five minute rests...I have no idea why anybody would do any less. My teenage boys doing this program could NOT get up the next day after squats. I still think people don't take this program serious enough.

I will see if I can find the original...

Hmmmm. That would have been useful information. I should have read closer. I guess I don't feel so bad that I felt soooo bad......

Even so, tough to say if I would have found anything different or not vis a vis the blubber situation with longer rests. I suspect with any super challenging program like this is difficult to stay hypocaloric.

I know it's sort of a moving target but next week I want try a straight up 5x5x5 program to see if I can keep improving my strength base while in the red calorie wise. I suspect this is more sustainable during deblubberification. Definitely will come back to the OLAD stuff maybe with the plyo's as described above as my strength base continues to build.