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Mike ODonnell
03-26-2008, 09:00 AM
I found this comment very interesting from Lyle at his new blog
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/blog/

Q: I just read your review of EPOC. Probably 16 years ago I read a study done at Laval U. It compared fat loss from steady exercise vs short bouts of intense exercise all done on a stat bike. Like the article, there was little difference in calorie burn between the two groups. But the intense group had significantly greater fat loss than the steady group. The researchers has no real answer as to why that happened. I wondered back then if it could be explained by the intense exercise stimulating growth hormone (GH). GH has a steroid-like effect on the body, accelerating fat loss among other effects.

A: I doubt it. GH is pretty irrelevant as an anabolic, studies have clearly shown that even injecting GH does nothing to improve strength or muscle gains. So the small GH pulse from interval training is unlikely to explain the results of that original interval study.

Rather, alterations in fat oxidation enzymes, muscle glycogen depletion, and the fact that, in untrained individuals, high intensity interval work can probably stimulate increases in muscle mass are more likely to explain the studies results.

But GH is pretty worthless here.

Chris Bardwell
03-26-2008, 09:14 AM
Interesting find, I am no pro in the field but assume he could be right about HIIT training being enough to elicit an adequate hormonal response. Whereas I am sure weight training is a different story.....

I am reading through his blog now, some great stuff up....

Neill Smith
03-26-2008, 10:28 AM
I've always been impressed by Lyle. I'm not knowledgeable enough to know if he's full of s--t or not, but he puts out a lot of information, contributes most of it cheaply or for free, and certainly sounds like he knows his stuff. I'm curious to hear others' opinions.

Mike ODonnell
03-26-2008, 10:35 AM
I find it hard to believe that "GH is pretty irrelevant as an anabolic, studies have clearly shown that even injecting GH does nothing to improve strength or muscle gains."

If that was the fact, I don't think you would have an issue with athletes using GH as a "performance enhancing drug".....which apparently is a big deal so they say nowadays. I know it can help increase recovery, which in turn can increase training volume....but have no direct effect on muscle increase? (Or is the muscle increase just a result of the abillity to increase training volume?)

Also that statement would negate anything that DeVany or others state about needing to train in the lactate threshold, as lactate increases GH output, and then not eating pwo immediately so as to take advantage of elevated GH for elevated fat loss.

Hard to argue the real world results of fat loss and muscle gain with those that do interval based training. I just don't think GH has that small of a role in the process.

Garrett Smith
03-26-2008, 11:06 AM
Um, maybe we should change the name away from "growth hormone" if it isn't anabolic...sheesh.

Maybe he is only referring to GH as anabolic in regards to muscle tissue, which is a myopic view and likely incorrect.

Dave Van Skike
03-26-2008, 11:19 AM
Lyle's nutritional cred and hormonal chops are pretty unimpeachable.

The Vain One OTOH, is *profoundly crazy.

Garrett Smith
03-26-2008, 01:15 PM
This is just another example of someone trying to claim they know what is going on inside the Black Box, IMO...

Jeremy Shepard
04-17-2008, 01:20 PM
The Vain One OTOH, is *profoundly crazy.

Very, very true.

Jeremy Shepard
04-17-2008, 01:31 PM
Also that statement would negate anything that DeVany or others state about needing to train in the lactate threshold, as lactate increases GH output, and then not eating pwo immediately so as to take advantage of elevated GH for elevated fat loss.


This is typical stuff that DeVany misinterprets. Training at the lactate threshold is fine for fat loss due to the amount of energy required. Glycogen depletion never hurts for fat loss, either.

Carbohydrates after resistance training don't blunt GH release, anyway:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11990744?ordinalpos=2&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

Steven Low
04-17-2008, 06:55 PM
I am actually writing an article on neuroendocrine response... hopefully will finish within the month (I have tonsssss of links studies in pubmed and various journals). Maybe in next months' PMenu. :)

Here's a few things things I have come across:
1. EPOC fails.
2. GH has a variety of uses both anabolic and catabolic (won't go into details). Recovery, as Mike said, is one good way to think of how GH functions though.
3. Glycogen depletion is key vs. B-oxidation with fat reserves (aka high intensity vs steady state).

I'll leave you guys to your own devices now since I don't want to give everything away.. just yet. ;)


Will be interesting to see what Lyle puts up and if it compares to what I've found so far... not that I need the competition from Lyle of all people. :\

edit: oops couple of errors

Steven Low
04-18-2008, 04:20 PM
Well, that's problematic. All Lyle did was leave me hanging since he didn't provide any other info than this which kinda forces me to more or less try to find the book (don't wanna buy anything) to see what he actually said on hormones....

The Hormonal Response

The hormonal response to any kind of high-intensity training is significantly different than in response to low-intensity training. While low intensity training typcially only releases noradrenaline (from the nerve terminals) with only small amounts of adrenaline (from the adrenal medulla), high-intensity exercise releases both adrenaline/noradrenaline in large amounts.

For various reasons, all of which are discussed in some detail in The Stubborn Fat Solution, that hormonal response can be beneficial to fat loss. Quite in fact, in that book, I use intervals for specifically that reason in two of the stubborn fat protocols.

In addition to potentially impacting on fat mobilization (lipolysis), this hormonal response can have one other major effect that is probably a major cause of the results in many of the studies being cited by the pro-interval group. That’s that high intensity exercise often blunts hunger.


Oh yeah MOD after that he goes into:
~rant about people not controlling diet.
~Effect of high intensity exercise to blunt hunger but very little fat loss from uncontrolled diet
~simply making people work harder is a plus but can be a minus
~rants on about "fat burning zone"

So yeah.. fairly 'obvious' stuff I guess. Anyone have his book and can tell me what's in the hormonal chapter or various sections?

Jeremy Shepard
04-18-2008, 05:28 PM
So yeah.. fairly 'obvious' stuff I guess. Anyone have his book and can tell me what's in the hormonal chapter or various sections?

I've got the book, but I'm away for the weekend and will have to wait a couple of days for anything specific. But, if memory serves, he mostly likes intervals due to the higher catecholamine release. There are a couple of other bits dealing with interval length and some theory work that seems to have panned out, but it would basically be giving away a good chunk of the plan if I posted it.

But, like all of Lyle's books, it's easily worth the cover price and I'd recommend picking up a copy.

Steven Low
04-18-2008, 07:01 PM
I've got the book, but I'm away for the weekend and will have to wait a couple of days for anything specific. But, if memory serves, he mostly likes intervals due to the higher catecholamine release. There are a couple of other bits dealing with interval length and some theory work that seems to have panned out, but it would basically be giving away a good chunk of the plan if I posted it. I don't really care too much about fat loss plan since I'm not in the market for that.

But, like all of Lyle's books, it's easily worth the cover price and I'd recommend picking up a copy.
I know about the catecholamines especially epi and norepi. I was just wondering if he went into any detail about any other hormones which I am going to in the neuroendocrine article I'm writing. To be clear all I want to know is all of the hormones he talked about besides catecholamines if any. I don't really care about the training program aspect of it.

Basically so I don't waste my time writing up something that has already been written up.

And yeah, considering I'm a student I'm pretty poor. So buying books is out the question ATM (well, to be fair there's other books on higher priority at least). I search local libraries for it, but they don't have it.. at least yet.

Steven Low
04-27-2008, 09:14 PM
Oooook. So it's done. All 6 pages with 51 source cites. It's nowhere near *comprehensive* as you'll see but I discuss 3 of the more important hormones and pretty much every way they relate to exercise then analyze how they all relate in terms of HIIT/metcon/resistance exercise/endurance. Hopefully you guys will enjoy. :)

Being proofread right now and maybe in next PMenu? We'll see.

Mike ODonnell
04-28-2008, 09:24 PM
Oooook. So it's done. All 6 pages with 51 source cites. It's nowhere near *comprehensive* as you'll see but I discuss 3 of the more important hormones and pretty much every way they relate to exercise then analyze how they all relate in terms of HIIT/metcon/resistance exercise/endurance. Hopefully you guys will enjoy. :)

Being proofread right now and maybe in next PMenu? We'll see.

look forward to reading it

Steve Forman
09-04-2008, 11:08 AM
Oooook. So it's done. All 6 pages with 51 source cites. It's nowhere near *comprehensive* as you'll see but I discuss 3 of the more important hormones and pretty much every way they relate to exercise then analyze how they all relate in terms of HIIT/metcon/resistance exercise/endurance. Hopefully you guys will enjoy. :)

Being proofread right now and maybe in next PMenu? We'll see.


Steven or anyone, I may have missed this paper. Any chance on telling wear to find it?

thanks.

Steven Low
09-04-2008, 08:32 PM
Steven or anyone, I may have missed this paper. Any chance on telling wear to find it?

thanks.
July issue of PMenu.

Steve Forman
09-05-2008, 07:51 AM
July issue of PMenu.

thanks Steve, hey is that an internet sub. or does it also come in hard copy??

Steven Low
09-05-2008, 08:11 AM
thanks Steve, hey is that an internet sub. or does it also come in hard copy??
You'd have to ask Greg about hard copies because I am unsure of that answer.