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Ben Moskowitz
03-27-2008, 08:45 AM
While watching the NCAA wrestling finals, I was thinking that wrestling/MMA/BJJ/karate/boxing/whatever would be a killer way to develop some anaerobic conditioning and GPP. I mean, besides hard farm work, brawling basically is GPP.


My only concern is I don't want a subluxed shoulder, broken arm, destroyed kneecap, or bruised and bloody face.


So... we know weightlifting and gymnastics are the safest sports of them all and develop killer power, strengh, and most of the other skills.

What's the safest fighting style to develop the other "half" of conditioning?

John Alston
03-27-2008, 09:18 AM
Is it beyond the rules of this modest forum to call someone a pussy for asking what the safest form of fighting is? Even if it's in good spirit?

Mike ODonnell
03-27-2008, 09:32 AM
shadow boxing....or street fighting with pre-schoolers...although that could get ugly if they gang up on you...better test this out first...
http://www.justsayhi.com/bb/fight5

Allen Yeh
03-27-2008, 09:40 AM
Nike beat me to it.

Just do it.

James Evans
03-27-2008, 10:20 AM
Cowardice.

Regular street cowardice or the extreme version.

Just run like fuck anytime you even think something is about to kick off.

The extreme version has you questioning people's sexuality first. Preferably in a bar full of bikers, steelworkers or marines on leave.

Anton Emery
03-27-2008, 10:29 AM
You might want to check out brazillian juijitsu or submission wrestling. I have been doing it for several years and have strained my shoulder a bit, but thats it, knock on wood. Most of the stuff is fairly safe because people are not trying to intentionally take your limbs off in practice. Injuries usually occur when someone lands wrong on a limb, or something accidentally gets twisted the wrong way. If you are training at a good school there should be any jerks there who want to drop you on your head when you try an armbar from the bottom. If you are not doing strikes you dont have to worry so much about a broken nose, messed up hands, etc. Wrestling full on with someone who has 50+ pounds on you is a pretty hard workout.


Anton

Kevin Perry
03-27-2008, 11:03 AM
hmmm depends honestly on how hard you go at it.

Any martial art can be safe if you pay attention to technique and practice plenty. There is bound to be injury at some point though, Especially in BJJ. I messed up my shoulder and elbow in BJJ last summer. But if your persistent and pay attention and try not to reenact walker texas ranger then you'll be fine. I recommend a good BJJ school or Aikido class if money is of no concern. Even Kempo is pretty good.

Eric Kerr
03-27-2008, 11:06 AM
I'd actually consider high school / collegiant style wrestling to be pretty safe as far as risk of injury is of concern with two conditions 1) The stronger you are the less likely you will get injured 2) The better shape you are in the less likely you will be to get injured.

Also you need to look at the movements you are doing in the activity and make sure you are doing that little bit extra in areas where you take the most abuse.

For instance in wrestling, I think some extra shoulder work (pre-hab, strengthening, mobility...not hypermobility) are in order.

Olympic lifting should be great for wrestling. Which is squatting, lifting, pulling, and somewhat more rarely pushing.

The hard part about wrestling in the US, is finding people to do it with after highschool. There aren't many adult clubs here like there are in some of the European, Slavic nations and those tend to focus more on freestyle and greco, which are potentially a little more iffy as far as safety is concerned due to the focus on throwing.

Garrett Smith
03-27-2008, 11:24 AM
Maybe Gittit or the Wolfman could comment on the suitability of Capoeira for your desires?

Blauer's Combat Calisthenics (there was a CFJ article on the basics of them) might be good for what you're looking for as well.

John Alston
03-27-2008, 11:40 AM
I'd actually consider high school / collegiant style wrestling to be pretty safe as far as risk of injury is of concern with two conditions 1) The stronger you are the less likely you will get injured 2) The better shape you are in the less likely you will be to get injured.

Also you need to look at the movements you are doing in the activity and make sure you are doing that little bit extra in areas where you take the most abuse.

For instance in wrestling, I think some extra shoulder work (pre-hab, strengthening, mobility...not hypermobility) are in order.

Olympic lifting should be great for wrestling. Which is squatting, lifting, pulling, and somewhat more rarely pushing.

The hard part about wrestling in the US, is finding people to do it with after highschool. There aren't many adult clubs here like there are in some of the European, Slavic nations and those tend to focus more on freestyle and greco, which are potentially a little more iffy as far as safety is concerned due to the focus on throwing.
Yeah, freesyle, folkstyle, Grecco-Roman, all that, how does one get into it as an adult? Searching on the internet for adult wrestling brings up some undesireable results.
Anyone know anywhere in NY?

Mike ODonnell
03-27-2008, 11:45 AM
shadow boxing....or street fighting with pre-schoolers...although that could get ugly if they gang up on you...better test this out first...
http://www.justsayhi.com/bb/fight5

Seriously.....no one has played that "How many 5yr olds you can fight" game? This forum is so going downhill........

Scott Kustes
03-27-2008, 12:41 PM
I have:
I can take 22 five-year olds in a fight...not very impressive.

Gant Grimes
03-27-2008, 12:44 PM
Wrestling is great but hard to find for the reasons listed above. Asking to train with the local high school boys team is probably going to get you on some kind of watch list.

BJJ can be good depending on the class and the instructor. It's more technical, and you spend more time on the mat rolling than you do in Judo or wrestling, which diminishes some of the GPP aspects (rolling on the mat trying to isolate an opponent's joints is different than rolling with an opponent and trying to physically manhandle him like in Judo or wrestling). It can be hard on the joints, particularly the elbows and shoulders (and neck and ankles, to an extent).

Judo is great for GPP but can be very hard on the body, especially if you're in a competition-oriented club. Find an adult class that isn't so focused on competition, and you'll be golden. A lot of classes spend the first hour on their feet and the second hour rolling. Those a pretty good mix. It can be hard on the joints, particularly the elbows. Shoulder and knee injuries happen more often from impact than locks. You will miss training time due to injury at some point.

MMA is becoming a catch-all term. Usually it's either a BJJ program + some striking or a wrestling class with striking and a few more submissions. You can have shootfighting, submission wrestling, Sambo, etc. It's program-dependent. Without knowing more, I can't advise you.

Aikido is a pleasant enough, but it won't do much for your conditioning. Traditional Aikido is like a dance class for the first six months. Great for footwork, low on the cardio. It's easy on the joints, and you won't get anything busted up. You also won't improve your GPP.

Striking arts, such as TKD, Kenpo, Muay Thai, Krav Maga (yes, I'll go ahead and put it here) are fine for fighting (some of them) but low on the GPP scale. Even the ones that you think give you a good GPP workout pale in comparison with the grappling arts. It's easier on the joints, but you will get the occasional black eye, busted lip, or bruised ribs (assuming the school is decent).

John Alston
03-27-2008, 01:52 PM
I did a semester of judo in college. Shoulda done more, but I was in a striking vein, eventually leading to boxing.
But, sambo, bjj, I know I could find. I guess I'm just western.

Gittit Shwartz
03-27-2008, 03:08 PM
Maybe Gittit or the Wolfman could comment on the suitability of Capoeira for your desires?


Capoeira can be great for GPP (depending on the group or style), but from reading your original post I wouldn't think it's what you're looking for. Looks like you've got the "stylish" aspect covered with gymnastics and you're looking for something more aggressive and applicable in a real-world fight. Some groups do claim their Capoeira can hold its own with any martial art in the ring, but if you see them in Vale Tudo competitions, there's not much Capoeira left in their technique aside from some elements of style.

I did traditional Karate for 9 years and I would NOT recommend it for GPP (I had none to show for all those years of training when I switched over to Capoeira at age 18).

BJJ is cool, I'd say check that out.

Eric Kerr
03-27-2008, 07:01 PM
Wrestling is great but hard to find for the reasons listed above. Asking to train with the local high school boys team is probably going to get you on some kind of watch list.


Well, maybe not on a watch list, but a lot of schools will not let non-facualty wrestle with the kids because of insurance/liability reasons.

Edit, if you didn't know how to wrestle and wanted to learn by wrestling with the kids at a school, that would probably get you put on a watch list.

Some freestyle/Greco tournaments do have Open divisions and there are usually a couple of hoary old warriors still going to them, but competition can be scare. A larger arear like NYC might be better is this regard. Still there is the matter of finding someone to teach you or train with you.

Being a former wrestler and loving the sport, I'm kind of sad about the BJJ, MMA world taking off. Just one more thing to overshadow a great sport. Americans seem to appreciate sports with little or no contact or full contact blood and guts. Nothing in-between. I take heart from the fact that maybe a few kids see the applicability of wrestling to these other activities and get involved that way.

Since leaving college, I've found the occasional coaching gig, but it is not what is paying the bills and with two little ones at home, it is hard to find the time to commit. But I love it when I can do it. Coaching adults would actually be nice, because at least they pay attention to what you are telling them for the most part.

Allen Yeh
03-28-2008, 04:07 AM
Yeah, freesyle, folkstyle, Grecco-Roman, all that, how does one get into it as an adult? Searching on the internet for adult wrestling brings up some undesireable results.
Anyone know anywhere in NY?

I'll try to look some stuff up for you. I use to wrestle club in college and some of the professors would stop by every once in a while (too bad no one I had for class!). I know there was an adult wrestling night up at American Univ. in DC and they said something about NYC though I can't recall off the top of my head right now.

And you're right about not searching for "adult wrestling" that is NSFW.

James Evans
03-28-2008, 04:30 AM
Ok, I was being somewhat cruel with my earlier post for which I am only partly sorry.

I don't understand the point of the question.

I think that you are asserting that the very act of wrestling is great GPP. But you don't want to get hurt doing it.

I'm worried that you are looking for the Holy Grail. You post regularly on the CF board. Is CF not working? I thought that this was great GPP.

In the UK there has been an increase in the popularity of martial arts, the marketing being particularly aimed at women with two (somewhat polar) incentives:

1. The self defence element in, as our media drum into us, an increasingly violent society

2. The fantastic conditioning potential of employing the methods and mechanics of a martial art without the actual sparring/competitive fighting. You too can have a boxer's abs without ever getting punched. This is really driven home: You will not have to fight unless you want to.

Surely this is the safest option then?

Or perhaps you could take it further and downgrade the whole thing further by just doing Tae Bo or Boxercise? It probably wouldn't be much further from the rubbish you see so many trainers over here doing with their clients on the heavy bag or focus pads. Maybe a lot more effective.

But how many people walk away from this thinking they are a fighter? Sadly I think quite a few think they know the moves.

"You look great. How do you stay in shape?"
"Well, I do a bit of boxing"

No you don't. You participate in a simulation of the training methods used by athletes involved in combat sports.

And how boring is that? Can you imagine training with an NFL team but sitting out every contact session and every game?

I train using a lot Ross Enamait's ideas. That doesn't make me a boxer.

My girlfriend spent 2 months studying kung fu in a monastery in China. She is not Jackie Chan. (She abhors violence! Very Budhist)

One of the tenets of CrossFit is that you should try new sports. That is why you should consider a martial art. It should be fun. Something new to learn. But mastering the skill set is going to take time. Why not read some of Ross' stuff and try some of his ideas on conditioning? The fitness doesn't just come from sparring. Do you want to try something new or are you looking for a new training regimen?

As a kid I did Judo and actually captained my school. It was ok, it satisfied that need to wrestle with other boys (but I always found rugby a better outlet). I learned quite a bit about body movement, balance, landing safely etc. But I found it, ultimately, inherently boring and too weighed down in Japanese terminology and ceremony. And conditioning wise it was nothing compared to what I did for rugby and the shit my old man used to have me doing at weekends and all through the summer holiday. Carrying buckets of cement up and down stairwells, moving bales of hay, piling up sheep cadavers on a bonfire. And no chance to punch anyone!

I'm not trying to belittle you. I'm just curious as to what you are aiming for.

Perhaps the last word should go to Ross and his argument on the safety of weight training in Infinite Intensity:

"Given the choice between the iron and being punched in the face I think I'd go with the iron."

Garrett Smith
03-28-2008, 04:31 AM
There is a wrestling sport club at the U of A, looking at universities may be a good place to start.

John Alston
03-28-2008, 06:43 AM
James, you're spot on.
I always laugh at the name of the workout called "fight gone bad" and don't see how anyone who has competed in any fight sport couldn't.
If all that happened at the end of your fight was you were totally tired and gassed then the fight went pretty damn well.

Mike ODonnell
03-28-2008, 07:00 AM
My girlfriend spent 2 months studying kung fu in a monastery in China. She is not Jackie Chan. (She abhors violence! Very Budhist)


That is seriously cool....how did she go about finding a place like that? One of those free room and board or pay to live there? Now that is something I would do just for the simple experience of it. Kung Fu or not.

As for the fighting...in college when things got rough at the end of the night at the bar I used to tell the beer muscles guy "Ok...so do you want to go outside and slug it out and both have headaches and black eyes for days...or do you want me to tell you right now that you are the winner so we can both go back to trying to get laid and make better use of our time". They always took option #2.

Only kind of martial arts that I would ever take is one that focused more on disarming opponents of weapons, defending an attack and then getting out of there. That is more realistic for survival in the world is nowadays.

Dave Paton
03-28-2008, 07:01 AM
John,

There is a significant youth wrestling program in New York (based out of Queens I think) called Beat the Streets Wrestling. They may know more about an adult wrestling club. You can google them.

Dave Paton
03-28-2008, 07:02 AM
Ben,

I just saw on Inside MMA on HDNET that Chuck Norris was World Champion in No Contact Karate. I think it's where you kick and punch someone really close to their face without actually hitting them. Hilarious in my opinion but may be up your alley.

James Evans
03-28-2008, 07:12 AM
James, you're spot on.
I always laugh at the name of the workout called "fight gone bad" and don't see how anyone who has competed in any fight sport couldn't.
If all that happened at the end of your fight was you were totally tired and gassed then the fight went pretty damn well.

I believe Glassman created that to simulate the feeling of fighting through rounds. On the test run he asked one of the guinea pigs if it felt like being in a fight and got the answer "yeah, a fight gone bad".

I spent some time thinking over the possibility of a routine for rugby sevens. For those unenlightened readers sevens is played by 7 guys on each team for 7 minutes each way (10 in a final) on a full size pitch. Speed and conditioning are at an absolute premium. It sucks.

So I considered three 7 minute rounds with a variety of multi-directional sprints, drops to the ground, agility work, burpees, powerbags (or sandbags) shield hits etc. The coach could call the shots through the rounds and everything could be random.

But then I thought, no James, this is utter bullshit. Unless you have a 100kg guy smashing you every 30 seconds it's nothing like it. Screw how many burpees you can do, get up from that. And again.

James Evans
03-28-2008, 07:16 AM
Ben,

I just saw on Inside MMA on HDNET that Chuck Norris was World Champion in No Contact Karate. I think it's where you kick and punch someone really close to their face without actually hitting them. Hilarious in my opinion but may be up your alley.

Isn't that the essence of capoeira? In Brazil I did see them making contact although the receiving protagonist looked pretty pissed off.

James Evans
03-28-2008, 07:21 AM
That is seriously cool....how did she go about finding a place like that? One of those free room and board or pay to live there? Now that is something I would do just for the simple experience of it. Kung Fu or not.

As for the fighting...in college when things got rough at the end of the night at the bar I used to tell the beer muscles guy "Ok...so do you want to go outside and slug it out and both have headaches and black eyes for days...or do you want me to tell you right now that you are the winner so we can both go back to trying to get laid and make better use of our time". They always took option #2.

Only kind of martial arts that I would ever take is one that focused more on disarming opponents of weapons, defending an attack and then getting out of there. That is more realistic for survival in the world is nowadays.

I really don't know. It wasn't quite like the Shaolin Temple in Mathew Polley's recent book. This place seemed to take (Western) people on a fairly regularly basis but from what she tells me and the photos I've seen the monks mean business. I think it was as much the cultural experience as anything else that appealed to her and refreshingly I know she has never seen a Bruce Lee film in her life.

Krav Maga puts the emphasis on that. I approve of the idea that you should always look for the safest way out. Remember there was a thread a while back when the poster wanted to be Charles Bronson and we all laid into him?

Mike ODonnell
03-28-2008, 07:34 AM
I really don't know. It wasn't quite like the Shaolin Temple in Mathew Polley's recent book. This place seemed to take (Western) people on a fairly regularly basis but from what she tells me and the photos I've seen the monks mean business. I think it was as much the cultural experience as anything else that appealed to her and refreshingly I know she has never seen a Bruce Lee film in her life.

Krav Maga puts the emphasis on that. I approve of the idea that you should always look for the safest way out. Remember there was a thread a while back when the poster wanted to be Charles Bronson and we all laid into him?

Yeah that would be an amazing experience....would love to do that someday. I agree on the Krav Maga as that is what I was thinking about. Although have you seen that show on Discover Channel (I think?) about the 2 fighters going around the world and trying different styles? I saw the one in Israel and Krav Maga...one was with the Israelian army and the other was with a private woman instructor....holy crap did they beat the living piss of out them....there was no training, there was like...ok, time to fight and you better know what you are doing. Wow....but it was real, as that is real survival for them. Disarm, knock the guy down and get out of there. That and NEVER get on the ground...as then you are screwed with people kicking and stomping you to death...of course that was dealing with more than one person...but that is usually how fights go down anyways.

I found my best defense was letting go of the ego of needing to be right....I don't need to act tough....I don't need to be right....I would rather walk away and get on with my day than sit in a hospital for days and feel I was right. That and people don't fight fair anyways nowadays....so I am allergic to getting any additional "holes" put in me. Defending yourself or someone else is one thing....anything else is just for the ego. Even nowadays....if a mugger comes up with a weapon....here.....take the $20 I have in my pocket....it's not worth getting stabbed for.

Gant Grimes
03-28-2008, 07:47 AM
Mike, you're right that being on the ground is never a good idea. That's why I only practice BJJ for fun and (possibly) competitive purposes. Slapping a tight triangle choke on somebody doesn't mean a lot when his buddies are kicking you in the head. It also doesn't do much for 2v1 or 3v1.

Stay away from any art that talks about disarming weapons. It doesn't work. You'd have to practice diligently for years to even have a CHANCE of disarming a bladed weapon. The best you can hope for is protecting your sensitive areas.

As you said, it's best to put your ego behind you. I'd rather apologize for no reason (I'm married, I'm used to it) and buy somebody a drink than take a bottle to the noggin'.

James, I took the original post as an inquiry of a good art to take without being injured. Getting "beat up" and being injured (which causes weeks of missed training) are very different things. You can have a safe training environment and get your ass whipped on a weekly basis. You can also train with a bunch of hotheads and get an elbow or knee hyper-extended every month.

I agree with the rugby conditioning, but that's probably not up the original poster's alley. I gave my knee and a few pints of blood to the sport. I miss it.

James Evans
03-28-2008, 08:26 AM
James, I took the original post as an inquiry of a good art to take without being injured. Getting "beat up" and being injured (which causes weeks of missed training) are very different things. You can have a safe training environment and get your ass whipped on a weekly basis. You can also train with a bunch of hotheads and get an elbow or knee hyper-extended every month.

But I don't think that was what Ben was asking is it? Or am I being harsh? He highlighted the GPP potential of a variety of combat sports and asked which was the safest. I took that to mean he was interested in the GPP potential little else because, as he said he wanted to fill in the 'other half of fitness'.

I should probably let it go shouldn't I?

Fighting in the real world is not good. Lots of places I avoid going to here because you just know something is going to happen. It makes me uneasy. I was getting off the bus last summer and some fat kid in a group of about 10 twenty year olds made some remark about my girlfriend. I did point out the error of his ways but the heart said smack the little shit while the head said no walk away. She would have been absolutely horrified if I had done anything. Ironically years ago a girlfriend accused me of being a coward because I didn't pile in a similar situation.

These kids were all middle class and soft as hell but I'm seen guys facing up to each other on the same route who wouldn't back down and would be happy to put your head through the window. I'm sure Walshy would have an opinion on this but it's not worth it. I know who I am, I don't need to prove it that way.

I also got mugged about 8 years ago. I think the guy was on PCP or something. He wouldn't have caught me normally but I'd had a bit to drink and my 11 sec 100 metres (back then) went straight out the window as I slipped over. That's when I saw what he'd threatened me with as I first pushed him away: a 10'' screwdriver. Utterly pointless. No money in my wallet and none in my bank account that day. Plenty of sleepless nights after that.

Thread diversion I'm afraid.

Gant Grimes
03-28-2008, 08:42 AM
No worries.

The last serious situation I was in at a bar involved me wearing a fur coat (long story) and an offensive lineman drenched in various liquids he accused me of throwing on him. I denied everything and asked him if he really wanted to take the chance of having his ass whipped by a man in a fur coat. He left, more disgusted and confused than anything. That's when I saw a tray of shots I had knocked over on him.

And that's why you should drink at home.

Ben Moskowitz
03-28-2008, 09:02 AM
Guys, Thanks for the responses!

I haven't read everything yet but, from what I can gather:


I am a bit of a pussy. I would probably let some criminal take my wallet because I don't feel like dying.
Capoeria might be the ticket. This is similar to the sports of tricking, parkour, and the like. BJJ would be better as long as I can find a no-nonsense gym.
Hardcore, balls to the wall training comes at a cost. In the fighting sports, this is injury.


I have picked up O-lifting and I'm loving it. I can endure the long CrossFit metcons, but I don't particularly like them. I was on the fencing team at school (finesse), but it lacked the hardcore training that I like. So I did a bunch of hardcore training...except I overtrained like whoa.

I'm just looking for something later in life to balance my O-lifting with some fun cross-conditioning to get the heart pumping (for long-term health). I know the P-Menu WOD does this perfectly.

Something else on the ticket:
rock climbing - kick arse for grip training and huge arms! I just have to make sure

I don't fall off a mountain
I don't let my legs atrophy, I have a feeling O-lifting will take care of that.



Oh, and thanks for all the drinking advice!!!
I'm in college after all...

James Evans
03-28-2008, 09:18 AM
Guys, Thanks for the responses!

I haven't read everything yet but, from what I can gather:


I am a bit of a pussy. I would probably let some criminal take my wallet because I don't feel like dying.
Capoeria might be the ticket. This is similar to the sports of tricking, parkour, and the like. BJJ would be better as long as I can find a no-nonsense gym.
Hardcore, balls to the wall training comes at a cost. In the fighting sports, this is injury.


I have picked up O-lifting and I'm loving it. I can endure the long CrossFit metcons, but I don't particularly like them. I was on the fencing team at school (finesse), but it lacked the hardcore training that I like. So I did a bunch of hardcore training...except I overtrained like whoa.

I'm just looking for something later in life to balance my O-lifting with some fun cross-conditioning to get the heart pumping (for long-term health). I know the P-Menu WOD does this perfectly.

Something else on the ticket:
rock climbing - kick arse for grip training and huge arms! I just have to make sure

I don't fall off a mountain
I don't let my legs atrophy, I have a feeling O-lifting will take care of that.



Oh, and thanks for all the drinking advice!!!
I'm in college after all...

Well there you go, that's more like it. I wasn't sure what you meant.

Climbing - a climbing wall is as safe as houses.

Go and have a go at one of these sports but don't be afraid to say 'that's not for me'. My neighbour at Uni had been doing Taekwondo for about a term, probably one session a week. Found himself at a tournament up against someone who'd been doing it since he was probably 5 and got KO'd in 5 seconds flat. That's mindless.

Have a look at Ross' websites.

Have fun.

Mike ODonnell
03-28-2008, 09:20 AM
I denied everything and asked him if he really wanted to take the chance of having his ass whipped by a man in a fur coat. He left, more disgusted and confused than anything. That's when I saw a tray of shots I had knocked over on him.

And that's why you should drink at home.

That is classic!

As for fighting....I take back the disarming thing...probably not something I want to play with. I guess looking back it's just learning about the 3 Ns....Nose...Knees and Nuts....Hit those as hard as you can on the other guy and then walk away. Most street fights are hardly technical and really quite ugly with people swingly wildly. As for idiots and their comments...I try now to put them in my shoes and say "How would you feel if I said that to your gf?"....if that doesn't work then just laugh it off and call them a dumbbass under my breath...although I tend to get a very loud under the breath voice after a drink or so.

As for bars and drinking....I keep my motto for life "Nothing good happens after midnight". So go start early, get the girl home, go to bed early and feel great the next day.....you never miss anything after midnight except the next shift of people up to no good looking for trouble. The day/early evening shift is usually harmless.

Ben Moskowitz
03-28-2008, 09:21 AM
This is sort of in the same vein of things, but a little more personal:

I'm thinking about joining the rowing team up at school. This would let me train hardcore by giving me access to Div.1 equipment and coaches. Read: O-lifting, bada** power racks, GHR's, sled dragging, huge box jumps....
yeah.


It would also be redonkulously tough: rowing is way anaerobic and Olympic rowers have the highest power output of any sport. (WFS) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rowing_%28sport%29#Competition)


The only concern is sort of missing my fencing buddies because I can't just be a walk-on fencer with no training. I work hard, but I don't have giant talent. At sports in general.

Maybe this is just the social version of being a pussy.

Jamila Bey
03-28-2008, 09:23 AM
That said, I could knock out 30 of the little F***ers.

Tee he he.

The hardest thing I've had to deal with being pregnant is my profound desire to spar with ANYTHING and not being able to.

I even walked away from a supermarket altercation once. (sigh)

I can't wait to get back to some fighting art.

Ben Moskowitz
03-28-2008, 09:25 AM
Guys, seriously brilliant social advice. Thanks.

Gant Grimes
03-28-2008, 09:45 AM
Ben, enjoy the rowing. Hope you like vomiting.

Mike, stay with the nose and soft tissues (eyes, ears, throat). You don't want anyone bleeding on you. Knees are a lot harder to hit than people think, and a simple turn of the thigh turns a target into a weapon. Nuts aren't good, either. Between adrenaline and cups, the nuts aren't a good choice. Move up a few inches to the bladder. When belly full of beer and whiskey gets a good hard kick, an embarrassing pants-pissing follows. That's usually enough of a diversion to make your exit. Man, I'm glad I don't have to worry about that crap anymore.

James Evans
03-28-2008, 09:52 AM
This is sort of in the same vein of things, but a little more personal:

I'm thinking about joining the rowing team up at school. This would let me train hardcore by giving me access to Div.1 equipment and coaches. Read: O-lifting, bada** power racks, GHR's, sled dragging, huge box jumps....
yeah.


It would also be redonkulously tough: rowing is way anaerobic and Olympic rowers have the highest power output of any sport. (WFS) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rowing_%28sport%29#Competition)


The only concern is sort of missing my fencing buddies because I can't just be a walk-on fencer with no training. I work hard, but I don't have giant talent. At sports in general.

Maybe this is just the social version of being a pussy.

It's power endurance. You don't stay anaerobic for a race that lasts 18 minutes. (The Varsity Boat Race for example which takes place tomorrow).

Even the shorter races taking place in the summer are too long to be anaerobic. Do a 2km ergo flat out. That's not sprinting or snatching a barbell.

But go and have a try. It is a lot of time commitment but unless you have a go you won't know whether you're missing out or not.

Gittit Shwartz
03-28-2008, 10:07 AM
Ben,
Feel free to PM me if you want some pointers about Capoeira styles or groups. They can be very different.

Mike ODonnell
03-28-2008, 10:17 AM
I can't wait to get back to some fighting art.

Go shopping at a baby store when it's sale day.....enjoy....

Dave Gibbs
03-30-2008, 10:42 PM
This is sort of in the same vein of things, but a little more personal:

I'm thinking about joining the rowing team up at school. This would let me train hardcore by giving me access to Div.1 equipment and coaches. Read: O-lifting, bada** power racks, GHR's, sled dragging, huge box jumps....
yeah.


It would also be redonkulously tough: rowing is way anaerobic and Olympic rowers have the highest power output of any sport. (WFS) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rowing_%28sport%29#Competition)


The only concern is sort of missing my fencing buddies because I can't just be a walk-on fencer with no training. I work hard, but I don't have giant talent. At sports in general.

Maybe this is just the social version of being a pussy.

rowing can be just as dangerous as martial arts or fighting if you do surfboat rowing.
checkout
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CG-wJyDGmS8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ay9e1QJa3Yg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXlxixHllGI

This is my sport of choice, great for fitness and probably the only sport in the world where you have to pull your trunks up your arse crack.:D

On a martial arts front I recomend Judo as a great workout , I did it for 15 years and apart from breaking every finger at least once it was pretty trouble free.

Tom Rawls
04-01-2008, 12:42 PM
This is sort of in the same vein of things, but a little more personal:

I'm thinking about joining the rowing team up at school. This would let me train hardcore by giving me access to Div.1 equipment and coaches. Read: O-lifting, bada** power racks, GHR's, sled dragging, huge box jumps....
yeah.


I don't follow your logic Ben.

If you want to do Oly lifting and drag sleds, then do those things.

If you row, you'll spend most of your time on the water (and the erg when its cold) developing technique while pulling long pieces. Have you actually looked at a program of rowing-specific training?

James Evans
04-02-2008, 04:36 AM
I don't follow your logic Ben.

If you want to do Oly lifting and drag sleds, then do those things.

If you row, you'll spend most of your time on the water (and the erg when its cold) developing technique while pulling long pieces. Have you actually looked at a program of rowing-specific training?

Tom, this is along the lines of why I had an issue with the original post. Ben gave the impression that he wanted to participate in a combat sport because the actual process of fighting was fantastic GPP. But he was unsure of the safety element. I hoped to argue that in fact the conditioning work would come from, well, conditioning work supplemental to sparring.

When he suggested that he wanted to try his hand at rowing it seems that he was as interested in the equipment and facilities that joining the boat club would make available to him. I think he should give rowing a shot if he is interested in 'rowing'. But he could be in for a shock.

I know that a lot of US crews (and many here in the UK) don't even do any strength or conditioning work other than out on the river or on the ergs. And the time commitment is monumental. Probably not so bad for a student but I don't know how working adults continue with it in the amateur bracket.

Here is an average week for a man at Twickenham Rowing Club in London:

Monday: Weights 7pm - 9pm
Tuesday: Ergo 7pm - 9pm
Wednesday: Weights or outing on Thames 7pm - 9pm
Thursday: Ergo 7pm - 9pm
Friday: Rest day (sometimes recovery swimming session)
Saturday: Water and land training - 2-3 outings. Racing (Head races will be paired with earlier training if easily accessible) 7am - 1pm
Sunday: Water and land training as per Saturday 7am - 1pm

That's just a rough skeleton and obviously periodization controls the emphasis on certain elements. As does the weather. The Thames at Twickenham is unrowable at certain times of the year. And of course these guys have to factor in travel time into their days too.

Tom Rawls
04-02-2008, 05:23 AM
James--

I recently read that the Aussie crew training for the Olympics consumes 7000 calories a day. No intermittent fasting or low-carb diet when you're doing 3x training for approx 2 hours each session.

Dave Paton
04-02-2008, 06:26 AM
I think i read that Michael Phelps consumes something like 9000-10,000 calories a day.

Scott Kustes
04-02-2008, 05:54 PM
I think i read that Michael Phelps consumes something like 9000-10,000 calories a day.
They showed his daily diet during the 2004 Games...it was nothing but junk. Pancakes, cookies, etc. But he got those calories in.

Mike ODonnell
04-02-2008, 06:58 PM
They showed his daily diet during the 2004 Games...it was nothing but junk. Pancakes, cookies, etc. But he got those calories in.

Has to be all carbs to get that amount of calories....athletes (especially in their 20s) can get away with it and burn it all up....but one has to wonder what damage is done in the process that may surface later in life? I imagine elite athletes are also consuming large amount of antioxidants and digestive enzymes...or they should. But....to compete at that level...you have to do it.

Robb Wolf
04-03-2008, 07:55 AM
Ben-
Maybe I'm a few espressso's short here but I don't see a problem with wanting a combative sport that is "relatively" safe. I'd put thai boxing above boxing based on the training methods and amount of head impact. I'd put most grappling sports above most striking sports. I'd certainly put Gi based BJJ above greco or no-gi submission wrestling...judo also for that matter. Slower, more controlledd game and less emphasis on throws. Plenty of fun, less impact, more relative safety. Find the class that is populated by the 30-50 year old professionals and you can go hard but not get domped on your head by a 20 year old MMA wanna-be.

This reminds me of a line from Raiders of the Lost Ark. "It's not the years, it's the milage." I. Jones

Mike ODonnell
04-03-2008, 08:20 AM
Plenty of fun, less impact, more relative safety. Find the class that is populated by the 30-50 year old professionals and you can go hard but not get domped on your head by a 20 year old MMA wanna-be.

Sooooo true there....in any sport. I see it all the time in hockey. All of us older "day jobbers" don't need missing teeth or black eyes...its the younger ones thinking they can still go "pro" that are dangerous....you get used to the bruises and injuries on the inside that no one can see after a while too....

Garrett Smith
04-03-2008, 10:07 AM
Find the class that is populated by the 30-50 year old professionals and you can go hard but not get domped on your head by a 20 year old MMA wanna-be.

This reminds me of a line from Raiders of the Lost Ark. "It's not the years, it's the milage." I. Jones

I think the same idea will be exemplified in the future by those of us who take a more moderate approach to CF-style GPP training. I hope to be one of the guys who is still exercising relatively intensely 40-50 years in the future, with moderation of course, only to be saying to the young bucks aching to burn themselves out early--"Trust me, you don't want to go balls out every workout...".

Susie Rosenberg
04-06-2008, 06:32 AM
I dunno.

If you are looking for metcon (which it sounds like you are, to balance your Olifting) then there are lots of ways to do that. Take on a training program with run sprint, or find a hill to run up faster and faster; ride a bike up a hill; do the CF metcons; swim laps faster and faster. While technique matters in all those endeavors, you can get the results out of 'em without having to invest lots of time in drills and developing technique.

To row well, or to do martial arts well, takes a lot of time and effort in technque, and IMO, it's not worth doing if you don't love it. There's no substitute for passion. Of course, you can't know if you will fall in love with a sport until you at least try it!

I used to train at a boxing gym just for the fun of it. The workout was 15 rounds and included speed bag, heavy bag, jump rope, stair climber, and punching drills with the instructor holding mitts. Was a really good workout, and no injury. Yeah, real fighters would say, "what's the point of training like a boxer if you don't want to box?" but I say, "to be in boxing shape."

In fact, now that I think about it, I think I'd like to go back there and train some more. It was FUN. What's wrong with a good exercise that is lots of fun? Not one damn thing.

Susie