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James Evans
04-04-2008, 05:56 AM
Although I think we can all get a bit het up about achieving a sub 3 minute Gaynor as rx'd* I do always find the idea of fitness standards interesting.

There is also something pleasingly voyeuristic about seeing what other people lift, how fast they move etc.

Anyway, a couple of things I've read recently made me think some more about the subject. Firstly Rob Shaul on his very enjoyable Moutain Athlete site (think Gym Jones without the PCP) set out his standards:

Exercise Men / Women

Dead Lift 2x BW / 1.5x BW
Front Squat 1.5x BW / 1.0x BW
Bench Press 1.5x BW / 1.0x BW
Power Clean 1.25x BW / .75x BW
Strict Pullups 20 / 10

and in Never Gymless Ross while arguing that too many people train push ups for strength endurance and should focus on other qualities he still believes that an athlete should be able to bang out 50.

So, in line with the above and things like 15 OHS at bodyweight or 35k one arm bench for 8 reps what would be your standards (whether you meet them or intend to meet them in the future)? I'll be interested in the ideas of those of you who train people for a living.

Gold star for the first: "I have no standards" reply.

*Gaynor

Speed twitches at bodyweight
Moldavian Fanny Hammers
Moonwalks

21-15-9 reps for time

Allen Yeh
04-04-2008, 08:01 AM
Can people that don't train people for a living state their standards too?

This is what I am striving for at the moment it's a mish mash of stuff, some stuff I've done before, and would like to maintain some I'm shooting for.

Front squat - 1.5x BW
Back squat - 2 x BW (oly style, I've done this PL style)
Deadlift - 500 LB DL - I've done 2xBW, 500 would be 2.5xBW Not training for it currently but one day I'll get back to this.
Clean and jerk - 1.5xBW for now
Snatch - 1 x BW for now
OHS - 1.5 x BW I've hit BW for 3
dead hang pull/chin - 15 -I've hit this in the past but as soon as I start to slack a bit my numbers end up going down again, I'd like to get a to place where 15 is my maintanence number rather than 10-12 which is what I get without much training.
kipping pullup - I've hit 20 in the past and would like to get 25, though not a huge goal

Kelly Frankson
04-04-2008, 09:05 AM
I think Robs standards are too low for girls. I typically tell girls that the first goal for deadlifts is BW, then 1.5xs then 2xs, front squats BW then 1.5xs BW. OH squat and clean and jerk bodyweight and although we don't do a lot of bench press I usually get girls building up to a BW.

These are the goals i set for my self a last year and where I'm at:

Snatch BW (128lbs)-currently at 132lbs
Clean and Jerk 1.5x BW (192lbs)-currently at 176lbs
Back Squat 2x BW (256lbs)-currently at 253lbs
Deadlift 2x BW (256lbs)-currently at 265lbs
15 rep max OH BW (128lbs)-currently at 135lbs
1 rep max OH 1.25xBW (154lbs)-currently at 155lbs
Handstand Pushups 15-currently at 10
Shoulder Press BW (128lb)-currently at 115lbs
Bench Press BW (128lbs)-currently at 135lbs
Pullups (kipping)-50-currently at 42
Tabata Pushups-12-currently at 10
Tabata Squats 27-currently at 25

Ari Kestler
04-04-2008, 09:52 AM
General Question: What happens once you reach your standard? Do you plan to just stop training for gains on that specific lift? Will you continue to push through? How would one even go about training to maintain?

Arden Cogar Jr.
04-04-2008, 09:55 AM
Allen and Kelly, you guys amaze me. That's some awesome stuff right there. Damn.

I don't know if they're really "standards" or "goals." I normally don't ever get anywhere near my ME when I train. Just don't have any interest. It's for that reason, my "standards" are more rep based.

For example

Deadlift - I want 600 for 10. I've done 585 for 11, but that 600 has been elusive for me. Last year I did it for 8. I may just have to cowboy up and give it a whirl.
Front Squat - with rack position, I want to do 315+ for set of 5 with the 5th rep being as easy as the first. I can "cross your heart" 405 for reps, but I want to hold in the rack with the hope that one day I can catch it and ride it down.
OHS - I would like to meet (I believer her name is) Nicole in a dark alley and not run in fear.


From a ME standpoint I'd like to

Snatch my bodyweight. I have a real problem dropping under, but the power snatches are coming along. I want to get my bodyweight. I think I'm getting close. My training weights of 75 and 80% are flying up these days.

Squat Clean more than 275. Everytime I go over 275 with cleans, I cut the clean short and catch the weight with my elbows pointing down. I can power clean with the crappy elbow position somehwere between 315 and 330. But I want to ride it down and stand up with it.

Perfect the power jerk and jerk Phil's Apollon Axle. :D Who am I kidding? Let's be serious. I got to get that thing to my shoulders first, then we'll think about jerking it.

All the best,
arden

Arden Cogar Jr.
04-04-2008, 09:59 AM
General Question: What happens once you reach your standard? Do you plan to just stop training for gains on that specific lift? Will you continue to push through? How would one even go about training to maintain?


For me, at my age, I will have to change my standards. I can't keep moving the heavier weights into my 40s. I just don't think it would be advantageous for my long term goals in fitness.

I see myself alternatively changing my focus on the heavier pulling to pulling the cleans and snatches with weights that are about 35 to 40% of what I'm capable of deadlifting right now. As I see it, that would have much less injury potential.

I want to perfect the technical aspects of the olympic movements and be able to coach others in their performance. Namely my daughters. So that's where I see myself going with the weight training.

All my training is geared toward my sport and improving my performance in my sport. As long as i remain competitive, I'll always strive to improve somehow.

Good luck. It's different for everyone.

All the best,
Arden

Mike ODonnell
04-04-2008, 10:03 AM
Live a long full happy life to play hockey and drink Guinness....no set goals, as I live more about appreciating the daily journey, not about getting to set destinations. Exercise is all part of just doing to appreciate it....don't care about what the weights are or need to be...I know when they are going up...and I keep adding more when I need to. There will be setbacks to my training such as injury or other things that take priority in life....but those don't bother me anymore, as I plan on living the journey for a long time.

sarena kopciel
04-04-2008, 10:16 AM
Live a long full happy life to play hockey and drink Guinness....no set goals, as I live more about appreciating the daily journey, not about getting to set destinations. Exercise is all part of just doing to appreciate it....don't care about what the weights are or need to be...I know when they are going up...and I keep adding more when I need to. There will be setbacks to my training such as injury or other things that take priority in life....but those don't bother me anymore, as I plan on living the journey for a long time.

Very well put! Now if only I could adopt those standards as well! But I hate beer....

Allen Yeh
04-04-2008, 10:27 AM
Allen and Kelly, you guys amaze me. That's some awesome stuff right there. Damn.


585 for 11....I still can remember your video just banging that out like it's nothing.

Arden Cogar Jr.
04-04-2008, 10:37 AM
Very well put! Now if only I could adopt those standards as well! But I hate beer....


Agreed completely on both the training and the beer. Hate the beer. :D

The biggest thing I've learned in the past two years is that I cannot train instinctively anymore. I have to waive my efforts weekly in order to continually improve/not be banged up/etc. If that makes any sense?

It's all good and it's all fun.

All the best,
Arden

Chris Forbis
04-04-2008, 02:55 PM
Being an Excel nerd, I have made a big spreadsheet for this in the past. I've got it setup with 3 different levels for each lift... I'll just list the top weight I'm shooting for. Current BW is 175 (so hard to keep weight on...). To get the numbers to jump that much, there will have to be some mass gain. The multiplier stays the same, but that will make the weights jump up.

Squat: 2xBW, 350#
Deadlift: 2.75xBW, 481#
Power Clean: 1.27xBW, 223#
Press: 1xBW, 175#
Bench Press: 1.55xBW, 271#

Those ballpark around Rip's advanced standard which is another long term goal for me. I'd also love to do the sandbag mile in 15:00, 15 OHS @ BW, and all kinds of other things. No rush though.

My current numbers are nowhere near those above. But I'm not far from my first tier numbers (263/350/267/131/201, respectively), or haven't been far from them in the past.

Mike ODonnell
04-04-2008, 03:32 PM
Current BW is 175 (so hard to keep weight on...).

Chris do you IF at all? With all this talk about slowed metabolism on IF...I find it EASIER to gain weight...as in why the hell would I want a fast metabolism if I am trying to put on pounds with the least amount of calorie intake? Just a thought....

Kevin Perry
04-04-2008, 05:58 PM
I don't have standards because anything you guys can do I can do better hehehe no really i mean it.

Jared Buffie
04-04-2008, 06:40 PM
Neat thread, and at a neat time for me. I'm trying to get re-motivated now that spring is finally here up in the great white north.

I decided to set some goals, but was left with the question "why?". I did a similar thing last summer with WOD times and stuff, worked my ass off, and hit them pretty quickly. I remember thinking "now what?". I guess I just wasn't ready to do what it takes to take my Helen time from 9:47 to 9:20 of my 5k from 24:10 to 23:00 because, aside from personal satisfaction, hitting those goals would translate very little into my overall, day-to-day existence (I am a 32 year old, balding married man - a six pack isn't enough to get myself into shape). I play no sports competitively anymore (nor do I have the time or urge to).

I guess it all falls back to living a long and healthy life, full of energy and free from the need for medications. I want to be running on the beach with my great grandchildren. But what does that translate into in terms of my workout routine today? (seriously, help me out - that wasn't a rhetorical question).

Chris Forbis
04-04-2008, 08:30 PM
Chris do you IF at all? With all this talk about slowed metabolism on IF...I find it EASIER to gain weight...as in why the hell would I want a fast metabolism if I am trying to put on pounds with the least amount of calorie intake? Just a thought....

I've found I end up close to the same whether I IF or not. If I'm not doing IF (or one day a week, about 24 hours, as I am now), I find it easier to keep calories up, with 3 hearty meals a day. But that keeps the metabolism fires stoked. If I IF 3 days a week, the metabolism slows, but with the reduced eating window I am not able to keep the calories up high enough while keeping the diet clean. So I can eat 3 times a day, fairly spread out, and spend a bit more on food while keeping my GI tract happy (clean diet). Or eat less frequently, but occasionally squeeze in shitty foods to keep calories up (pizza, etc.) which pisses off my GI tract. Even if I keep it clean, my GI tract seems to be bit happier with the 1-day-a-week IF as opposed to the 3 day variety.

I'm tinkering with the diet right now, trying to find somewhat normal ways of adding cals without getting too freakish. Slugging back coconut milk straight just doesn't seem too normal, you know? So I'll eat my two pounds of meat, eggs, avocados, etc. every day and see what happens.

I'd like to be heavier, but performance isn't terrible by any means. True, I'd like to be stronger, but I'm jumping and sprinting better than I have at any point in my life. I'll just keep lifting and tinkering with the diet and see what happens.

Mike ODonnell
04-05-2008, 07:24 AM
I remember thinking "now what?"
Exactly....why I never found happiness when all I did was worry about what BF...or how much to lift....or what did I weight....etc. There is always that "now what" moment....so I'd rather make it about the journey and know fitness if just one small part of it (an important part of course).

(I am a 32 year old, balding married man - a six pack isn't enough to get myself into shape). I play no sports competitively anymore (nor do I have the time or urge to).
Get your butt out there on the ice....you know you miss it....or get that mountain bike out of storage. The competitive part is just all in our heads, as you can still play hockey for fun and do your best without getting all caught up in the need to win. As for the balding part....I could lend you some hair...at 36 seems that it just keeps growing! ;)

I guess it all falls back to living a long and healthy life, full of energy and free from the need for medications. I want to be running on the beach with my great grandchildren. But what does that translate into in terms of my workout routine today? (seriously, help me out - that wasn't a rhetorical question).
Very good question...I wonder that myself. Did a post (http://projectfit.org/iflifeblog/2008/03/24/too-fast-a-metabolism-accelerates-ageing/) a while back on whether too much of a metabolism was healthy (in terms of longevity). It was based on this study: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/10/061010022316.htm

I agree that my fitness is more for fun nowadays....and focused on being healthy for a long time (minus crashing my mountain bike into a tree...)

Jared Buffie
04-05-2008, 08:31 PM
OD...

First, if you think there are guys living out their glory days in mens hockey in Georgia, you should see it up here! Way worse...

As for mountain biking, I'm in the prairies here. It's so flat you can watch your dog run away for a week.

BTW... I'm sitting here in my living room with my wife and her friend who is 31, single, loves you blog and is heading to Atlanta and wants to meet you. Any chance?

Mike ODonnell
04-05-2008, 08:56 PM
OD...

First, if you think there are guys living out their glory days in mens hockey in Georgia, you should see it up here! Way worse...

As for mountain biking, I'm in the prairies here. It's so flat you can watch your dog run away for a week.

BTW... I'm sitting here in my living room with my wife and her friend who is 31, single, loves you blog and is heading to Atlanta and wants to meet you. Any chance?

Ha...glory days, funny enough this season my team is 0 and ....well everything....great lessons on how to enjoy the game and playing for the sake of playing...even when things are at their worst. As for the biking....well you could always start a new sport called prarie biking....it's those damn golpher holes you have to watch out for. If anyone wants to meet up while they are in Atlanta, I am more than happy to....just email me...or you know my number. If she is heading to Atlanta JUST to meet me....then I am scared as all hell!! :)

Jared Buffie
04-06-2008, 06:56 PM
MOD, she's after your cash. I told her you're a professional message board poster and that you get paid $100 for every contribution here.

Mike ODonnell
04-06-2008, 07:02 PM
MOD, she's after your cash. I told her you're a professional message board poster and that you get paid $100 for every contribution here.

I'm still waiting for Greg to send the check......

Dave Van Skike
04-08-2008, 12:14 PM
Be a great father, be a good friend...remain unincarcerated.


in addition to the above, a 3xBW Deadlift is a good start.

Gant Grimes
04-08-2008, 12:36 PM
Be a great father, be a good friend...remain unincarcerated.


in addition to the above, a 3xBW Deadlift is a good start.

Indeed. You can't be a good father or friend if you're not pulling at least 2xBW DL.

Dave Van Skike
04-08-2008, 01:01 PM
well, maybe a good friend....

but 2xBW DL is really the bare minimum for any sort of familial role modeling.

Gant Grimes
04-08-2008, 01:03 PM
Agreed. I'll have 2.5BW DL by the summer. I'll be damned if my daughter is going to have daddy issues.

Garrett Smith
04-08-2008, 02:29 PM
I have to get my pulling up then, I have about 4.5 months to gain 55# on my DL (if I want to be a good dad, I guess...).

Thanks for making that important point clear.