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Greg Battaglia
04-05-2008, 03:56 PM
Despite the fact that I've been an avid proponent of evolutionary medicine and the paleo diet approach I've always made it a point to keep an open mind. Although I'm certainly not opposed to paleo eating (I currently eat paleo myself) my recent interest in centenarian lifestyles has roused my curiosity. After doing a lot of reading about centenarians I've come to realize that although there are certainly similarities with the paleo approach there are also some distinct differences.

Although centenarians do indeed seem to consume lots of fruits and vegetables the most unique components of their diets appear to be raw dairy products, and soaked/sprouted grains and beans. This seems to coincide with what the WAP foundation has been saying for years. For example, I just read an article at my girlfriends house that was in an issue of AARP titled "Living to 100" that looked into the diet and lifestyle of a Costa Rican village called Nicoya that has an unusually high percentage of centenarians. The author describes his experience with one centenarian women that he met. Before getting into the details of the diet, the author noted that despite her age and failing eyesight Panchita remained incredibly physically active and capable at age 101. Apparently she chops wood and chops down small trees with a machete, moving fast and rigorously all the while. She also walks everywhere. The following is an excerpt from the article:

A bowl of bananas and papayas sat on the counter for easy access, and everything else-beans, onions, garlic, greens, corn, which all required preparation-remained out of sight.

and She moved slowly and deliberately, heating up beans and seasoning them with garlic and onions. From an earthen pot she scooped out grayish corn that had been soaking in lime hydrate overnight, rinsed the kernals, and ground them into dough. She patted out tortillas and roasted them over the open fire. She melted a dollop of lard on an iron griddle and fried eggs. Finally she cut paper thin slices of cheese....

and In about 30 minutes she presented us with lunch-small portions of beans, corn torillas, and one egg on a small plate. The serving looked huge, but it amounted to about half of what you'd get if you ordered the breakfast at your local diner.

The author goes on to list the following highlights of the Nicoyan lifestyle:

Have a strong sense of purpose Costa Rican centenarians have a clear mission in life, what they call a plan de vida. They feel needed and want to contribute to a greater good.

Drink hard water Nicoyan water has the country's highest calcium content, which perhaps explains the centenarians' lower rates of heart disease and less hip fractures.

Keep a focus on family Nicoyans centenarians tend to live with their families, and children or grandchildren provide support and a sense of purpose and belonging.

Eat a light dinner Eating fewer calories seems to be one of the surest ways to add years to your life. Nicoyans eat a light dinner early in th evening. Their traditional diet of maize and beans may be the best nutritional combination for longevity the world has ever known.

Maintain social networks Nicoyan centenarians get many visits from neighbors. They know how to listen, laugh, and appreciate what they have.

Keep hard at work Centenarians seem to have enjoyed physical work all their lives. They find joy in everyday physical chores.

Get soem sensible sun Nicoyans get regular sunlight which provides vitamin D for strong bones and healthy bodies.

Embrace a common history Modern Nicoyans' roots, among the indigenous Chorotega, and their spiritual traditions have enabled them to remain relatively free of stress.

Other centenarians, such as the Sardinians share very similar traits like eating raw pecorino cheese that contains live larvae and consuming beans as a significant portion of their diet. They eat grains too, but in smaller portions. The common theme is that these foods are prepared properly (sprouted or soaked for grains, beans, and nuts and non-homogenized, non-pasteurized raw dairy from grass-fed animals) to leech out any anti-nutrients or lectins and make nutrients more bioavailable.

Additionally, primitive (but not necessarily tribal) cultures have been thriving on diets that contain grains, beans, and dairy products that are properly prepared. Could it be that in the last 10,000 years humans have developed adaptations to such foods, so long as they are prepared in a proper manner? Maybe it is the fact that only in the last 100 or so years have we begun to eat grains, beans, and dairy in their modern, unprepared form that makes them detrimental? Perhaps if we consumed these foods in a properly prepared state (99.9% of Americans don't) we would do just fine incorporating them into our diets. I'm not sure to be honest, but I don't think it's completely out of the picture. I personally have never tried soaked/sprouted grains or beans. People like Ross Enamait have noted a complete amelioration of seasonal allergies and a dramatic improvement in immune function after adding raw milk to his diet. Not to mention that the presence of lactase in some European cultures is clear evidence of at least some adaptation to dairy. Couple this with the fact that the most robust centenarians include these foods in their diet and you have a pretty convincing argument.

Also, I find it quite striking that some very prominent promoters of paleo-esque diets (Mark Sisson, Ori Hofmekler, Mark Lundegren, Tamir Katz) state quite clearly that 10,000 years ago-once agriculture began-human evolution came to a screeching halt. They are essentially claiming that our genome is exactly identical to what it was 10,000 years ago. This is absurd, as anyone with even rudimentary knowledge in the area of human evolution knows that evolution is a continuous process that is influenced by environmental cues (like diet, especially). Surely, there must be some[B] level of adaptation to grains, beans, and dairy within the last 10,000 years. To what degree, I don't know.

Finally, I think centenarians are a far more appropriate reference point for modeling our lifestyle habits, as they are actually living proof of what works. We can't rely on the assumption that just because contemporary H/G's have a short lifespan due to traumatic death and infant mortality that they [B]would live to be centenarians barring any accidental death. Centenarians seem to get it all, both long life and a high quality of living.

That being said, I'm not about to give up my paleo diet just yet. I'm going to continue to study up on any relevant information pertaining to centenarian diets and life styles. If I keep finding these same consistencies I'm going to give the WAP style an honest try for the sake of experimentation. If it sucks, I can always go back to paleo.

Thoughts, comments, opinions?

Mike ODonnell
04-05-2008, 09:01 PM
My money is on calorie reduced diets and active lifestyles that keep them living for a long time....it's the combination of excessive calories and other things like gluten, high stress, toxins in mainstream foods and so forth that dont allow the body to handle the overload. The body can adjust to stresses to some level....and their lifestyle had low amounts of stress....compare that today with western civilization and you have a completely different picture.

IMO, a diet lower in calories with moderate protein and fats, and carbs from fresh veggies and fruits is a pretty good plan for longterm health. I think there is more threat from excessive oxidative damage from high calories and overload of higher HR aerobic based activities that leads to more accelerate ageing. One theory is you only have so many metabolic enzymes...and the faster you use them up for repair and digestion....the quicker you will age....as once you run out, you are done. (that just a theory people have)

Neal Winkler
04-05-2008, 09:09 PM
Greg,

I think everyone, paleo or non-paleo, would agree that the less processed your foods are the healthier they are going to be. Centarians have this going for them.

After that, as you know, you have reasons why grains and dairy consumption may be less than optimal. But what would be the mechanism by which grains and dairy enhance longevity?

One of the things that centarians have in common is low insulin. A paleo diet versus an unprocessed diet with added grains/dairy is still going to be higher in insulin production, but much lower than a modern diet. Enter the bell curve. I imagine this is an area where it would apply. Some people just have the genes and naturally greater insulin sensitivity for longevity, so of course they are still going to do great despite their diet not being 100% optimal.

I think that's all that's going on here. The bell curve. But, maybe there is something about their diet that enhances longevity, let us know if you figure it out!

Susie Rosenberg
04-06-2008, 05:22 AM
Greg, you've raised some interesting points.

I've also done a lot of reading about culture, health, and longevity. There's a lot of easily accessible literature on this out there!

When you first look at disease rates, lifespan and infant mortality, you get a gross approximation of a culture's health. Cultures as disparate in diet as the French and the Okinawans all have better numbers than the US on those gross indices. The French eat a high-fat diet with a lot of wine; the Okinawans eat white rice, fish, sea vegetables, and fruit in season. Pretty low-fat. But what they have in common is that they eat whole, real foods; foods that are tied to their local points of production. (The French actually label these special foods, like their wine. Their chickens get labels!)

Even the Masai, who eat raw whole milk, blood, and meat, do better on those health indices than the US.

So the first take-home lesson is: eat whole, real foods produced in an environment adapted to that food, like the famous Bresse chickens of France, and if possible, produced locally to you!

Industrialized foods are bad. Bad Twinkies! Bad conventionally raised beef! Bad sugared yogurt! Good truly free-range eggs, home garden zucchini, grassfed beef.

What the centerian literature tells us is that more than just our industrialized food is wrong. It tells us industrialized living is wrong. We fragment everything: children are segregated from adults, the elderly are segregated from everyone else, we don't have the same connections to our neighbors, communities, religious institutions, that we once did. We are more and more isolated in our homes with flickering televisions giving us a version of reality. And a constant bombardment of commercials inciting us to keep consuming.

We need to eat whole, real foods, and get whole, real exercise in the company of whole, real community.

We need to stop being rampant, thoughtless consumers of disposible goods and start living with purpose and meaning.

Oh boy, did I go off on a rant!

But truly, what that longevity work tells us is that there is a better, wholer, healthier way to live. And that diet is a part of it, but only a part. I think the fascination with diet I've found here (and on the Crossfit board) is a good thing, because folks who want to excel in athletic endeavor need to eat for performance. But if you are talking about diet in its largest context---ie, for health---you have to think about it as only one part of a much larger picture.

We're in the process of forming a buying club for grassfed, local meats at my Crossfit affiliate. The interesting thing is, while this will enable us to get quality meats in a convenient manner and at a lower price, it also binds us more together as a community. We have to cooperate to get it done. We're a close-knit community already, and this venture is just one more thread that will be woven into the cloth that binds us.

Good foods are produced in a whole manner, and once you start to care about that....well...who knows? The circle can keep spinning in increasingly positive ways............

Susie

Gittit Shwartz
04-06-2008, 05:24 AM
One theory is you only have so many metabolic enzymes...and the faster you use them up for repair and digestion....the quicker you will age....as once you run out, you are done. (that just a theory people have)
You can sub almost anything for "metabolic enzymes" in the above and you'll get a theory with a sort of intuitive appeal and that many people hold to be true. Heartbeats, breaths, cell divisions, hours of sleep, words, bad deeds... Not to take away from the ones that actually have science backing them, just an observation.

Jay Cohen
04-06-2008, 05:41 AM
Susie;

Very well stated. If you get the chance, read some of Joel Salatin's other books. I just finished Hog Heaven and Holy Cow. It's a quick read, but goes right to the heart of your post. Joel speaks very passionately about eating real food, not bar codes.

I'll post a pic later, but I had to smile, when my local Grass Feeding farmer took me for a walk yesterday. When I pulled up to pick up some eggs / meats for myself and some friends, he was building a portable chicken coop, that will be towed behind his tractor. It follows the cows, lets the chickens hop out, do their thing, then back in the chicken mobile, off to next pasture. Idea is right off Joel's farm.

Then he tells me that my steer will be ready in three weeks, and on the way out, stop on down the road and say hi to him. "It's the big Grey one". I'm thinking, "Food with a Face, not a Bar Code", pulled up the lane, climb over the gate, and there are about 10 head, just hanging out, staring at me. Walk up, they back up, whip out the cell camera, they come closer, snap a few pics, and they're just standing there looking like happy cows.

Climb back in car, smile knowing that I'm supporting a great local guy, eating some great meat, and making trips to grocery store, less and less.

Just canned about 10 qts of KimChi, getting ready to till for garden.

Have a great Sunday. Good luck on your GF meat co op, should not be hard to do, and great fun with soul satisfying rewards.

Jay

Mike ODonnell
04-06-2008, 06:52 AM
Great thread.....I think a huge difference you see in longer living people outside of what they eat is also their social structure and total environment around them. They probably enjoy keeping active, have a sense of purpose in what they do, don't stress out about stupid little things most of us do in a fast paced world, take things on their own time, enjoy time with others and live life one day at a time. Food is just one part of the whole health equation...as the mind is the most powerful muscle we have to exercise. They probably live less in a hightened "fight or flight" neuro-stress response state (as it seems most people live in the state all day...worried and stressing over something at work, traffic, bills, fear of something, etc.....and that is a destructive state to live in) and they live more in tune with the positive energies of the environment around them. (not saying they sing songs with the birds like in a cartoon.....but they just have more positive energies of contentment, happiness, appreciation and compassion for all things and people....and less destructive negative energies of hate, anger, greed, jealousy, envy, fear, self pity and the likes)

Dan Heaney
04-06-2008, 07:03 AM
Great thread.....I think a huge difference you see in longer living people outside of what they eat is also their social structure and total environment around them. They probably enjoy keeping active, have a sense of purpose in what they do, don't stress out about stupid little things most of us do in a fast paced world, take things on their own time, enjoy time with others and live life one day at a time. Food is just one part of the whole health equation...as the mind is the most powerful muscle we have to exercise.

I know quite a few people who were in good health and then retired and lost that sense of purpose and their health deteriorated.

Mike ODonnell
04-06-2008, 08:37 AM
I know quite a few people who were in good health and then retired and lost that sense of purpose and their health deteriorated.

Sad but true....hence why I think that whole sense of retirement just to "start living" is a false hope most cling to and will only leave them worse off....as living is only done in the present moment. My mom is 70 and still works a retail job that requires her being active...that and she plays tennis 2-3x a week too. She doesn't "work out"...she just enjoys the activities that she does (that and she has me bugging the crap out of her to stop eating all the bad stuff) I already "mentally" retired from the rat race....but I personally never plan to stop working in some shape or form....it's just that I now choose what kind of work I want to do that I enjoy.

Greg Battaglia
04-06-2008, 11:55 AM
I had a feeling this thread would generate some interesting discussion. I appreciate all of your excellent responses.

Susie, that post was awesome. What you just said is exactly how I feel about life in general. Unfortunately I live in an environment (social speaking, not environmentally) that has strong forces pulling me toward people and situations with negativity written all over it. Hopefully once I get a CF gym running I can make my environment become a product of me, not the other way around. After all, the 7th Day Adventists in Loma Linda, CA eat a strict low-fat vegetarian diet and also have an unusually high centenarian population. Like you said, the Okinawa's eat low-fat as well. Then you look at the two other Blue Zone's (high centenarian populations) like the Sardinians and the Nicoyan's who incorporate lots of animal based fats from pasture-fed animals.

Neal, good points. In the madness of all this reading I guess those studies somehow managed to slip my mind. Thanks for the refreshment.

MOD, I think you're spot on, all the way. The diet part too. The diet you suggested seems very similar to Mark Sissons approach: Tons of vegetables, a little fruit and small amounts of adequate meat and fat consumption.

After thinking about what you said some more, I realize that building a Crossfit community (or any other program that brings health-minded people together) is a great way to cover all of the components of a centenarian lifestyle. You get the physical activity, proper diet, sleep habits, other lifestyle habits, and the community support on top of all that.

In my situation, I have everything covered except for the community support. In fact, I usually have the exact opposite. Most people criticize my lifestyle, and I don't know if it's just because it's so different from theirs that they don't want to accept change or that they're jealous or envious of someone else finding and executing a path to happiness in the midst of an epidemic of miserable people. That's why I MUST get a CF gym running.

Anyway, enough of my ramblings.

Chris Bardwell
04-06-2008, 12:55 PM
In my situation, I have everything covered except for the community support. In fact, I usually have the exact opposite. Most people criticize my lifestyle, and I don't know if it's just because it's so different from theirs that they don't want to accept change or that they're jealous or envious of someone else finding and executing a path to happiness in the midst of an epidemic of miserable people. That's why I MUST get a CF gym running.

Anyway, enough of my ramblings.

I feel you on this and am not sure what the solution is, or why people are so critical of the lifestyle we live, it leaves me confused and upset at times, even spurring me to rethink my lifestyle.

Mike ODonnell
04-06-2008, 06:45 PM
Unfortunately I live in an environment (social speaking, not environmentally) that has strong forces pulling me toward people and situations with negativity written all over it. Hopefully once I get a CF gym running I can make my environment become a product of me, not the other way around.

they're jealous or envious of someone else finding and executing a path to happiness in the midst of an epidemic of miserable people. That's why I MUST get a CF gym running.

Negative people will always wonder why people are happy....as they want everyone to join their club...so the best thing to do, is don't care what anyone thinks....as that is really the problem, there will always be negative people around in the world...but it's how you react to them that is important...as you can not control others and their thoughts...don't waste time there....but you can control 100% of what you think....and if you happy on your personal journey...then who cares what others think...if they leave and go their own way, then let them go....positive energies will bring people of like mind around you....it will all work out. That and you can be happy right now no matter what is going on...it's all how you look at it. Anything that you do in the future will just compliment it...you don't "need" anything to be happy...you have all you need right now...just have to focus on it and realize it and that takes practice daily.....just focus on what you need to do now...and forget about what others are saying, as they have no more power over you from this point on...because that is what you choose.

I just did a thing on happiness...
http://projectfit.org/iflifeblog/2008/04/04/how-to-be-happyright-now/
and if you are having trouble, read "The Power of Now" by E Tolle...an easy read and really has a great message on how to be happy.

Neal Winkler
04-06-2008, 09:16 PM
For an argument against 100% paleo dieting I would look at the marginal utility.

How much of my life span and quality of life will be erased from 1 serving of un/low processed grains and dairy per week/month/day. 2 servings? 3 servings? Is the possible decrease in life span (due to the probability of getting a disease or accelerated aging) more or less valued than the pleasure/convienence gained at each increment?

Is the relationship between grains/dairy and quality/quantity of life linear or non-linear? If non-linear, then finding the threshold after which losses in quality/quantity of life begin would be important because before that the marginal utility would be zero (assuming you prefer eating grains/dairy to more paleo food), therefore it would be irrational to eat 100% paleo.

On the centarians front, Greg, are these populations with high centarians modernized in that they have access to better medical treatment and less dangerous lives than ancient/comtemporary HG's? Just having basic sanitization and anti-biotics will dramitically increase your life span.

Greg Battaglia
04-06-2008, 10:28 PM
Mike,
Thanks, I read your blog post earlier. What a coincidence that this topic arose in two different places at once. I've been hearing a lot about E. Tolle. My girlfriend has the book, I'll be sure to borrow it.

I think my main problem is that I can't let go of the people who once had zest and have become good friends of mine. They're really good friends, but their lifestyles are completely at odds with mine, and their demeanors are beginning to change at this point due to poor lifestyle choices (drugs, alcohol, settling for unsatisfying jobs and a life of mediocrity, etc.) and their negative outlook really hampers my attitude. I realize that in the not-too-distant future I'm going to have to part with them and make a 100% commitment to my passion.

Neal,
I see what your saying. That's a tough question to answer. I don't know if anyone has the answer, and if not, I think it would be hard to uncover. Most of these Blue Zone cultures do indeed have good health care, however, not all of them do. The Nicoyans for instance do not have good health care at all. Despite this, they seem to avoid most, if not all, of the Syndrome X diseases. I guess that is a pretty good testament for the effectiveness of healthy lifestyle habits in preventive medicine.

On a side note, I've been really delving into the specifics of the overall lifestyles of centenarians and there are some very consistent similarities. For one, they all have something to live for; something to wake up to everyday. They have a driving force. Secondly, the all keep a positive outlook on life and tend to be very religious. If things are going good, good has blessed them, if not, it's not in their hands anyway (god will take care of everything, it's his plan, according to them). They also exercise a lot, but no the way most people do. Most centenarians do not deliberately exercise, it's simply a byproduct of their lifestyle. So rather than cranking out some muscle-ups for the sake of health and fitness, they engage in activities with an obvious purpose like mowing the lawn, gardening, or have jobs that require them to work vigorously. I hate to admit it, but the truth is that centenarians typically eat plant-based diet, although they are not vegetarians (except 7th Day Adventists in Limo Linda, CA). Their diets seem to be high in fruits, vegetables, whole grains, nuts, and particularly beans with meat as a side dish. The Okinawans follow the 80% rule. They eat until they're about 80% full and stop before feeling 100% satisfied (ie calorie restriction). They have close family ties and put family before everything else. They care about their family, and their families love them. They also don't have much stress and have leisure time after meals.

They only thing that surprised me here was the dietary pattern. It seems as though plant-based flexitarian diets are the norm among centenarians. You also can see this in American's who don't live in isolated centenarian societies. People like Jack Lalanne, Clarence Bass, and Bob Delmonteque (among others) seem have to achieved excellent levels of health and longevity eating this way. Art D. even seems to eat more of a plant-based diet than Cordain recommends. Maybe it's due to the fact that plants provide more volume for less calories than meat. A base yielding PRAL is probably a good reason as well.

I don't know, really. I'm a bit tired and probably just typed a big clutter of random thoughts. Sorry about that, but let me know what you guys think.

Jay Cohen
04-07-2008, 02:05 AM
Uh..........maybe time to move on, leave this interesting thread on a high note?

Chris Rice
04-07-2008, 06:00 AM
As I was preparing for retirement, I read an interesting line. I have no idea as to it's truth but I liked it.
"If you retire FROM your job, you life expectancy is 2 years. If you retire TO something, your life expectancy is 20 years."
Retirement can give you the financial freedom to take that job you always wanted but you could never live on the money etc. In retirement, I have been able to help more people, feel more fulfilled, and do more things than I ever could while working two jobs to make ends meet all those years. Of course I work some every day, sometimes a lot, some times a little. I workout some everyday as well, anything from a serious weight workout to a walk to whatever. Variety has become a very integral part of life these days, and I think I like it much better than the old grind.
I notice all the examples of long lived people seem to be outside large cities where interactions with others takes on a different tone.

Mike ODonnell
04-07-2008, 07:43 AM
Mike,
Thanks, I read your blog post earlier. What a coincidence that this topic arose in two different places at once. I've been hearing a lot about E. Tolle. My girlfriend has the book, I'll be sure to borrow it.
Funny how things usually happen at the same time for a reason.....

I think my main problem is that I can't let go of the people who once had zest and have become good friends of mine. They're really good friends, but their lifestyles are completely at odds with mine, and their demeanors are beginning to change at this point due to poor lifestyle choices (drugs, alcohol, settling for unsatisfying jobs and a life of mediocrity, etc.) and their negative outlook really hampers my attitude. I realize that in the not-too-distant future I'm going to have to part with them and make a 100% commitment to my passion.
Personally I think people use the "friends" term as a crutch to keep other people around. Nothing stays the same....so if people choose to go a certain way that is not in tune with your purpose/passions...and they choose that lifestyle...then it is time to say goodbye in a nice way. Just learn to say "No thanks" when they want you to go do stuff that you have no interest in....who cares what they say about you...just move on...you can make new friends every day that are more in line with your goals and lifestyle. Go live your life as a model for others....at some point years down the road maybe one of these past friends comes to you and says that they admire what you did with your life and want help from you...then you can embrace them back into your life. But don't focus on what others think or expect from you.....you will be left empty and unhappy inside if you do. Follow your true passions without anyone's approval...the rest of the world will transform around you.

So rather than cranking out some muscle-ups for the sake of health and fitness, they engage in activities with an obvious purpose like mowing the lawn, gardening, or have jobs that require them to work vigorously.
Hence why lifestyle activities and shorter anaerobic/strength training is a better choice IMO. Longer sustain high HR aerobic activities (aka cardio) or high rep no weight high HR intervals for 20min take alot of calories to recover from...and eating 5000 cal a day is not a longevity plus. Slow and steady wins the race every time....except when you need that occasional burst of speed to get away from the tiger in your village....and if you can't outrun or find a tree to climb in 30seconds you are screwed anyways....you don't need 20min worth of endurance....as being eaten will take up the other 19min 30sec.


I hate to admit it, but the truth is that centenarians typically eat plant-based diet, although they are not vegetarians (except 7th Day Adventists in Limo Linda, CA). Their diets seem to be high in fruits, vegetables, whole grains, nuts, and particularly beans with meat as a side dish.
Eating grains to a person who is in good health with a no stress lifestyle....compared to someone overweight with high BP and always stressed is always going to be 2 different things. Even if grains/gluten provide an inflammation response...person #1's system can probably handle it without any long term ill effects as the whole body stress level is low....person #2 can not as their whole body stress level is high and then excess grains will lead to more serious diseases. I still eat grains (mostly in the form of bread) here and there....but my baseline of health is probably far better than the average person in modernized society. Eat meat to maintain muscle...but as you fasting and CR, you learn you do not need as much anymore....so you can save and build muscle on less protein intake.

That and go enjoy life....stop sweating too much about the details that you probably already know the answers about....eat healthy, exercise, stay positive and find your purpose/passion....the rest takes care of itself.

Steve Liberati
04-07-2008, 07:48 AM
Mike, you should write a book. You have all the answers to life's problems.

Mike ODonnell
04-07-2008, 07:49 AM
"If you retire FROM your job, you life expectancy is 2 years. If you retire TO something, your life expectancy is 20 years."

Why I retired 6 years ago (no I didn't win the lottery, I just wanted out of the whole idea of working a miserable job just to live life at 65) and now plan on doing work because I enjoy what I do...whatever it may be...for the next...Ohhhh.....60+ years hopefully. :)

Mike ODonnell
04-07-2008, 07:51 AM
Mike, you should write a book. You have all the answers to life's problems.

In the works....just been stalled on the Title for the last 5 years but after that....should be smooth sailing....nothing I invented or hasn't been said before in other books by people smarter than me....plus I could be full of crap but I'll never say it. ;)

...I'll give you a shout out when I am on Oprah

Steve Liberati
04-07-2008, 08:54 AM
Thanks Mike. You keep me posted.

Regarding the thread, there are certainly many factors that are at work here contributing to the sparkling health and longevity for the centenarian people. While there is no doubt that diet plays a strong role, I believe its benefits are only realized when everything is working in unison. In other words, serving inmates paleo type foods only will probably do little good for the overall health. Too many negatives to cancel out the good. So centenarians have that working for them. Long checklist of good things happening to them...making it very difficult to show their diet being the secret to their success.

In addition to the combination of various factors working together to influence their health, centenarians are simply thriving on a diet very similar to our paleolithic ancestors. The spectrum of foods they consumed from grains, fruits, veggies and nuts are similar to the spectrum consumed by our ancestors throughtout millions of years of human and prehuman existence.

According to the data, it is assumed that meat and fat made up of less than 35 percent of the total energy intake of the paleolithic hunter and gather's diet. Of course the differene being too, was our ancestors consumed meat that was nutritionally different than what we eat today. The meat we eat is much less heathful than the lean and relatively unsaturated meat eaten by our stone age relatives.

This post really makes me start to wonder how right we have it with our adequate fat and protein, lots of veggies, nuts and little fruit twist on a true paleo diet.

Maybe these centenarians can teach a few things about truly emulating the dietary fare of preagricultural humans. The foods may not be the same, but the nutritional elements are not much different.

A relatively high intake of carbs (high-fiber nutritional dense fruits and veggie sources) coupled with mod-low protein and fat - a pattern well within the broad paleolithic range.

So maybe their diet does make sense when comparing it to the modern version of the paleo diet. At closer look while applying the concept of equivalency, their approach really does seem so far off.

In other words its much easier to recreate the nutritional profile of our ancestors than it is to obtain the same sources (can you remmeber the last time you ate a mammoth, a giant sloth, or an insect?).

Mike ODonnell
04-07-2008, 09:17 AM
Kind of ties into something I did on high protein intake not being good for longevity (http://projectfit.org/iflifeblog/2008/03/31/too-much-protein-a-bad-thing/) in the sense of increased oxidative damage.

The accumulation of unrepaired oxidative damage products may be a major factor in cellular aging. Both oxidative lesions in DNA and oxidatively damaged proteins have been shown to accumulate during aging. The accumulation of oxidized proteins in Fischer 344 rats was compared for animals consuming protein-restricted and calorically restricted diets--both of which have been shown to extend lifespan. Rats were fed diets restricted in either protein (5% or 10% of the diet as compared with the normal 20% casein), or calories (25% or 40% less than normal), or total diet (40% less than normal). In addition, some of the rats fed a diet providing 5% or 20% protein were irradiated twice weekly (125 rads per exposure; 1 rad = 0.01 Gy). The level of oxidative damage to proteins (protein carbonyls) was determined in rats sacrificed at various times. The oxidative damage to proteins increased with aging and with radiation. Either protein or calorie restriction markedly inhibited the accumulation of oxidatively damaged proteins. Protein restriction reduced the accumulation of oxidatively damaged proteins during the oxidative stress of chronic irradiation.
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pmcentrez&artid=50075

So a diet moderate in protein is ideal, enough to maintain muscle....but is a diet higher in more stable fats (Sat and MUFA....not PUFA and Trans) less beneficial than a diet higher in Fruits and Veg? Getting enough vitamins and minerals aside. Higher fat diets increase nitrogen retention, therefore less protein is needed....but vegetables can provide some protein as well...good, bad or tie goes to the runner? At that point....I think it's a small factor if the fats are healthy and not loaded up with toxins...as fruits and vegetables can also introduce more toxins that can accelerate ageing.

Garrett Smith
04-07-2008, 10:42 AM
I don't think food or water should be at the heart of this discussion, as the majority of the things these folks are doing have precisely to do with managing stress and having a sense of place & purpose. That is likely much more important than simply food and water.

Have a strong sense of purpose Costa Rican centenarians have a clear mission in life, what they call a plan de vida. They feel needed and want to contribute to a greater good.

Keep a focus on family Nicoyans centenarians tend to live with their families, and children or grandchildren provide support and a sense of purpose and belonging.

Maintain social networks Nicoyan centenarians get many visits from neighbors. They know how to listen, laugh, and appreciate what they have.

Keep hard at work Centenarians seem to have enjoyed physical work all their lives. They find joy in everyday physical chores.

Embrace a common history Modern Nicoyans' roots, among the indigenous Chorotega, and their spiritual traditions have enabled them to remain relatively free of stress.

Let us not put the cart before the horse.

Mike ODonnell
04-07-2008, 11:16 AM
Let us not put the cart before the horse.

Unfortunately most people's carts are full of twinkies and ding dongs....they are stressed out after getting a broken wheel cause they ran off the road while checking their blackberry and trying to argue with the last cart that cut them off...and their horse has arthritis.....

Greg Battaglia
04-07-2008, 06:44 PM
MOD,
great advice again, as usual. I'd like to see a book as well. You're retired? How old are you?

Just to keep things clear, I'm not about to shun off everything that I've learned and experienced through the Paleo approach. It's still my reference point, I may just oscillate from that point. Good point on the gluten/social environment issue. Stress is obviously a major component.

Steve,
good points, I've considered this before myself.

Garrett,
I see where you're coming from and I agree that the most consistent traits among centenarians are having a positive outlook, enjoying exercise, and having something to live for. However, diet is a factor, and I would say a significant one. Based on the evidence (not my opinion, or yours) most centenarians eat plant-based diets full of veggies, fruit, nuts, grains, and beans; meat is a side dish. Of course their will be the few outliers that eat shit, some cigarettes, drink beer, and don't exercise yet still live to 100, but I think what's important is what MOST centenarians are doing. Most are eating plant-based diets. You can still eat a plant-based paleo diet. I pretty much do already anyway. Tons of veggies as a base with healthy fats added, supplemental fruits, nuts, meats, eggs, fish. Not too far from what the centenarians are doing.

Jay,
I don't know exactly what you mean by that? Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you suggesting that we end this thread because (god forbid!) we shun dogmatism and keep an open mind and honestly evaluate the evidence and let the chips fall into place? If you meant something completely different I apologize, but that's the vibe I got.

Mike ODonnell
04-07-2008, 07:34 PM
great advice again........You're retired? How old are you?

Only great if you get to put it into action now and make it work for you daily.....starting tomorrow....hope you do.

36...and retired "mentally" from the whole sales pitch of the corporate world life (401ks, climbing the corporate ladder, long days, making money only for other people, etc...)....not even close financially.....hence I plan on working for the rest of my life...but doing things I want to do...living day by day...and I don't golf....

Steve Liberati
04-08-2008, 03:45 AM
I think this thread has prompted me to eat ALOT more veggies in my diet. Just not nearly as fun as meat and fruits:(

Susie Rosenberg
04-08-2008, 04:14 AM
You can't go wrong with building your diet on a base of vegetables and fruits.

If you "eat the rainbow" of colorful vegetables and fruits, you will be eating a wide variety of phytochemicals: literally hundreds of antioxidants, all of which go to work in your body as soldiers against free radicals. Thus, they are anti-aging and anti-cancer substances.

Probably the best antidote to modern ills, diet-wise, lies in those vegetables and fruits.

On top of that base of veggies and fruits, add high quality protein, enough to support lean body mass, and a modicum of healthy fat, and you're good to go, and it's paleo.

I don't think there's anything wrong or unhealthy about including small portions of whole grains, like oatmeal, barley, quinoa, corn, and small portions of legumes, if desired. But they are clearly not necessary for health and longevity.

Susie

Scott Kustes
04-08-2008, 07:40 AM
Personally I think people use the "friends" term as a crutch to keep other people around. Nothing stays the same....so if people choose to go a certain way that is not in tune with your purpose/passions...and they choose that lifestyle...then it is time to say goodbye in a nice way.
This is so true. We're all family here, so it's story time. I am in the process of getting a divorce. What it all boiled down to is that my wife and I are interested in leading two different lives. In reference to my healthy lifestyle, she would commonly use the phrase "that's not normal" to which I'd reply "Look around you sometime...do you want to be normal like the rest of those people?" She would rather see me feeling like crap with her from a binger on brownies than both of us thriving after fish and vegetables. It's hard to be with someone that you care about, but know that they are just dragging you down...that can apply to friends or family. When you aren't interested in the societal timeline of "get a degree, get married, buy a house, have kids, slave for 40 years, retire and finally live" and the other is, it's time to say "I have nothing against you and wish the best for you, but I cannot live life as I see fit with you. We will each be better off with someone else."

I think you see a lot of obese people that are truly scared to lose weight because it means other things change: how will their obese friends react? What about their spouse? Will it mean finding new friends and getting a divorce, all for the selfish act of bettering themselves?

As Mike said, people want others to be miserable with them. Rather than improving her own health, my wife was more interested in me coming down to her level. That way she didn't have to do anything and didn't have to feel bad when I'm wanting to get out and use up some energy and she didn't. There's a difference between being on par with someone else because you improved to their level and being on par with someone else because you dragged them down to your level. The former is noble, the latter isn't.

If your friends are critical of your lifestyle, perhaps that is telling of the level of friendship. Please don't take offense to that...just something to think about. Friends should be supportive, regardless of whether they are interested in such things. Also remember that there are friends of all types...I have the deep friendships with people that I can talk to once in 6 months and we can share stories like we didn't miss a day. I have other people that I meet up with once in awhile to grab a beer or dinner. There are other people that are the "sports" friends or "camping buddies". The guys I hang out with most aren't people that I talk to about my lifestyle....they know I eat different than them and don't watch TV and are mostly okay with that, so long as I don't preach to them why it's better to do things my way. Wanting people to let you live life as you see fit also means freeing people to live life as they see fit.

Mike ODonnell
04-08-2008, 08:35 AM
You can't go wrong with building your diet on a base of vegetables and fruits.

If you "eat the rainbow" of colorful vegetables and fruits, you will be eating a wide variety of phytochemicals: literally hundreds of antioxidants, all of which go to work in your body as soldiers against free radicals. Thus, they are anti-aging and anti-cancer substances.

So true....as I did a thing about fiber today on the blog (http://projectfit.org/iflifeblog/2008/04/08/fiberoverhyped-how-much-do-you-really-need/) (how it is overhyped in my mind)...but the key to civilizations with health...low stress...eat fiber from fruits and vegetables....no processed foods.....diet could be high in meat but because of a healthy lifestyle their gut works just fine...and they have no bowel movement issues (as that is more related to bacteria environment...hence you poop more when you take probiotics). In a sense, the cleaner your enironment is around you....the less fruits and vegetables you will even need. Like said above...environment (stressors, toxins, etc) is the BIGGER issue...as a healthy environment needs less protective agents....but a toxic one, well.....that can be what leads to disease no matter how many fruits and veg we eat.

The belief that regular bowel movement is important for health is very ancient. But the present theory is based on Dr. Dennis Burkitt's discovery that relatively few rural black Africans suffer from cancer of the colon. He attributed this to their relatively crude diet.

The theory was that, as fibre made food travel through the gut faster, it allowed less time for cancer-inducing agents to form. This, of course, presupposed that food became carcinogenic in the gut and there was no evidence that it did. Neither was there any evidence that moving food through the intestine at a faster rate decreased the risk of colon cancer. Moreover, the rural Africans' lifestyle was far from that of the Western city dweller: their diet is different, but also they were not exposed to so many pollutants, toxins or mental stresses. Indeed, there were many factors that could have been responsible for a difference in disease patterns. Other communities - the Mormons of Utah, for example - also enjoyed a low incidence of colon cancer yet they ate a low-fibre diet.
from http://easydiagnosis.com/articles/cholesterol3.html

Mike ODonnell
04-08-2008, 08:42 AM
It's hard to be with someone that you care about, but know that they are just dragging you down...that can apply to friends or family.

So true...and I know you will be happy every day from this point on...because it is what you choose. Letting go can hurt...but really what is that all based upon? So many of us (and myself included) can get wrapped up in needing others around to make us feel happy....when that is not the answer. Because at some point....friends move on....people take a different journey...my goals change....people break up....it happens and life is meant to be a changing environment. Not easy but keeping our happiness detached from whether other people are around or not is the only answer. We can enjoy people when they are with us....but we don't need them to be happy. Big difference.

Scott you will do great things in life and be better off from this point on....we all believe that.

Robb Wolf
04-08-2008, 08:49 AM
HG's had plenty of access to beneficial (and not so beneficial) flora, I think this is wired into our genes. The offal of herbivores was one of the prime sources for this concentrated "pro-biotic" load. Not surprising this would be of benefit to pastoralists and agriculturalists.

The notion that evolution stopped 10K years ago is based on the need for an isolated population to exist in a species to allow for genetic drift in a subpopulation. This appears to be a solid assertion. I can get into the genetics if anyone is interested but it's a bit technical. As it is there are only a few adaptations that are recognized to have happened in the past 15K years or so: Lactase enzyme in som pop's, vit-D/folate metabolism alterations in northern europeans who consumed gluten containing grains, sickle cell adaptation in pop's exposed to malaria...possible an exposure to an HIV type virus, but that was possibly as old as 100K.

Moste centenarians drink alcohol almost daily and have smoked at some point in their lives. The longest lived are not typically tee-totalers.

Mike ODonnell
04-08-2008, 08:53 AM
Moste centenarians drink alcohol almost daily

Guinness a day.....keeps the doctor away! (or if you live in Ireland you will see him right next to you drinking a Guinness as well!)

Greg Battaglia
04-08-2008, 10:56 AM
Robb saves the day as usual and sets us all traits. Good argument. Can't really argue it back. However, how is there no possibility of genetic drift in the past 15K years?? I did well in an undergraduate genetics course last year, don't know if that's enough to understand the genetics behind this topic, but I'm open to finding out.

In terms of smoking, from my reading I have gathered that most centenarians never smoked and only drink alcohol very moderately, usually with one of their meals a day. They mostly just lead a primitive, hard working lifestyle, with plenty of friends and family and eat natural foods.

Scott,

Sorry to hear about your divorce (unless of course the whole thing is liberating, which may be the case). I find that my situation with my girl is opposite, but not necessarily in a good way. She recently has been telling me how badly she wants to go paleo and start CFing and stuff, but I fear that she's only doing it to make me happy when it's a path that she really doesn't want to pursue. In that case, the outcome could be similar, unless of course she sees the real benefits and becomes a convert along the way.

At any rate, you're a very smart guy, Scott. I learn something new every time I read your blog and look forward to new posts. You've got your priorities straight and you really can't go wrong with that. I wish you the best of luck through your hard times.

MOD,
I agree that you can't rely on others to make you happy, but wouldn't you agree that the social aspect of life is incredibly important to happiness and longevity? Humans are incredibly social creatures. This is what makes us unique, it's hardwired into our DNA. I've been down the loner road before and it's not a path to happiness. Of course I could be misinterpreting the meaning of your comment.

Tom Rawls
04-08-2008, 04:04 PM
Guinness a day.....keeps the doctor away!

Processed from a non-paleo domesticated grain. Are you espousing heresy?

Mike ODonnell
04-08-2008, 04:18 PM
Processed from a non-paleo domesticated grain. Are you espousing heresy?

Guinness is Paleo...if you believe that it is truly the nectar of the gods....ha....but I IF so my body can handle the occasional stress of a "damn dirty" grain (as Robb would probably put it). I'd rather live to 95 with Guinness in my life than 100 without it. :) Quality of life is a factor too....and damn does it taste so good! (note we are not talking about binge drinking...just the occasional beer) That and tequila just makes me do too many stupid things.

Mike ODonnell
04-08-2008, 04:26 PM
MOD, I agree that you can't rely on others to make you happy, but wouldn't you agree that the social aspect of life is incredibly important to happiness and longevity? Humans are incredibly social creatures. This is what makes us unique, it's hardwired into our DNA. I've been down the loner road before and it's not a path to happiness. Of course I could be misinterpreting the meaning of your comment.

Absolutely Greg. Not implying to go sit on a desert island as social interaction is very important. What we need though is social interaction without attachment. As you could be just as happy with a group of people you just met....like you could with old friends. Interaction is interaction. No one wants to be alone including myself. I love to be out with people...but I try not to base any attachments to "needing" certain people around. Enjoy the social aspect...meet new people and be drawn more to people who do emulate your personal philosophy...as they will probably also be drawn to you. Just don't think you need to associate with anyone from the past who do not compliment your point of views and only bring you down a road you don't want to go. You don't owe them anything...and they are attaching to you. Let them go...and that freedom will inspire you to find new people who can inspire you instead of the opposite. Make the decision to be happy, to not be attached to people or let them attach to you and then go out in the world....it will seem like a happier place with the new sunglasses you are wearing!

Garrett Smith
04-08-2008, 05:04 PM
I'm still going to go back to the stress issue.

I don't care what somebody eats, if they are whacked out with stress (be it physical/mental/spiritual/whatever) they aren't going to live a long time.

As Greg mentioned, there are folks who "break the rules" of what we believe longevity-inducing practices should be, yet they keep on ticking. I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that those are some of the most happy-go-lucky, relaxed people (for the vast majority of their lives) that most of us would ever meet.

I know if I had to prioritize, based on the above list and what I see in my patients, it would be the "stress-relieving" things that were listed before in the quote I posted. Diet would be like the icing on the cake--like getting Paleo before IF.

Stressing about one's diet...now there's a bad idea.

Tom Rawls
04-08-2008, 05:34 PM
I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that those are some of the most happy-go-lucky, relaxed people (for the vast majority of their lives) that most of us would ever meet.



I'll give you happy-go-lucky if you give me genes.

I'd add that the only way to be happy in this sorrowful world is to be dim and unaware. So I'll give you happy if you give me fulfilled.

And I'll let you have longevity if you give me fulfillment.

By the way, I expect mead, made from honey, qualifies as the true paleo nectar. I've never had it, but I expect it wouldn't take much to cause a man to revert to primitive behavior.

Mike ODonnell
04-08-2008, 05:43 PM
I'd add that the only way to be happy in this sorrowful world is to be dim and unaware.

I think there is the route of the issue....is you see the world as sorrowful...while I see it as a gift full of good people every day....it's just how we all decide to see it....and it takes practice. Kind of like one person watching CNN...and the other watching Extreme Makeover Home Edition....one will leave you depressed...the other inspired. We have a choice in what channel we turn to every day.

I would agree blissful unawareness may be fun....but is also not the goal. As I can walk down the street happy....but also not going unaware of someone driving a car right at me.

Mike ODonnell
04-08-2008, 05:48 PM
I know if I had to prioritize it would be the "stress-relieving" things that were listed before in the quote I posted. Diet would be like the icing on the cake--like getting Paleo before IF.

Stressing about one's diet...now there's a bad idea.

Not going to argue that....until I see that longevity study about cab drivers in NY city....but pretty sure we are safe there. Hell if you eat 100% paleo and are stressed....you can't even digest your food properly!

Greg Battaglia
04-08-2008, 10:05 PM
I know if I had to prioritize, based on the above list and what I see in my patients, it would be the "stress-relieving" things that were listed before in the quote I posted. Diet would be like the icing on the cake--like getting Paleo before IF.

Stressing about one's diet...now there's a bad idea.

I agree and can personally attest to this. Back when my MVP was really intense it was dragging me down big time. I was eating all paleo, exercising like a beast in the gym, and getting 8-9 hours of sleep but I was under an enormous amount of stress. From looking at me I was the picture of health, but I felt as though my heart was going to explode at any moment. I felt like complete dirt. I would be sitting in class and suddenly have a panic attack and have to leave the room. Not the healthiest situation in the world.

Conversely, Once I got my MVP and stress level under control was around the same time my training level dropped off majorly due to injuries yet I felt incredibly healthy, still do.

Stress is a killer, won't argue that.

Scott Kustes
04-09-2008, 08:18 AM
Thanks MOD and Greg. Funny you mention "liberating" Greg. It truly has been. I agonized over it for 2 months...actually moved out in early January and finally called it done in early March. But the day I decided it was over, I moved on...I knew that the right decision had been made. I don't question my decision and it's just a matter of getting this house sold until I can move on with other quests in my life. In the meantime, I'm living life pretty stress-free...traffic and things that used to irritate the hell out of me rarely do so any more. And I'm involving myself in things that interest me that my previous relationship held me back from due to lack of common interests.

If anyone wants a nice house in Louisville, KY, I'll make you a great deal on it.

Mike ODonnell
04-09-2008, 08:43 AM
If anyone wants a nice house in Louisville, KY, I'll make you a great deal on it.

No thanks....have enough rednecks in GA.

No worries everyone....we can go back to meat and fat again....Eades says vegetarians age faster....false alarm.....
http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/sugar-and-sweeteners/vegetarians-age-faster-2/

R. Alan Hester
04-09-2008, 12:25 PM
No thanks....have enough rednecks in GA.

No worries everyone....we can go back to meat and fat again....Eades says vegetarians age faster....false alarm.....
http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/sugar-and-sweeteners/vegetarians-age-faster-2/

Yes, BUT, he said, "the omnivores (Traditional) actually consumed a little more carb (saccharides) each day than did the vegetarians (Alternative), but not enough to reach significance."

I wonder what the source of carbs was besides fruits and vegetables. Was it whole grains?

R. Alan Hester
04-09-2008, 12:49 PM
No thanks....have enough rednecks in GA.

No worries everyone....we can go back to meat and fat again....Eades says vegetarians age faster....false alarm.....
http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/sugar-and-sweeteners/vegetarians-age-faster-2/

since we are kicking this thing around a bit: I am having a hard time understanding how caloric needs were met. For example, De Vany states, "They [cordain] say that HG males spend from 19.6 to 24.7 kcal/kg/day in physical activity. Take 22.0 as an indicative value and convert to Cal/lb and we have about 10 kcals per lb spent in daily activity. At my weight of 205 that is 2050 Cals. Adding basal and physical activity means I am in the over 4100 Cals per day range if I live something like a HG male."

4100 kcals a day..Holy crap, Batman. Furthermore, cordain states that "societies of hunter-gatherers showing that the mean plant to animal subsistence ratio in terms of energy was 35% plant and 65% animal,... [and] humans evolved on a diet that was primarily animal based and consequently low to moderate in carbohydrate, high in protein and low to moderate in fat."

OK, so I am tracking on that. Then cordain says, "Generally, health begins to noticeably be disrupted when cereal grains provide 70% or more of the daily caloric intake. The human dietary staple for more than 2 million years was lean game meat supplemented by fresh fruits and vegetables. Including lean meats (seafood, fish, game meat-if you can get it, lean cuts of poultry & domestic meat) more fruits, vegetables at the expense of cereal grains is a good starting point for improving nutrition.

So, finally, if 65% of our calories came form lean meat and 35% came form fruits and vegetables, how in the sam hell did HGs ever reach 4100 calories a day, while mainting 8-12% body fat?

Mike ODonnell
04-09-2008, 12:49 PM
Not that I ever intended to eat more fruits and vegetables....as meat and fat are what I crave....but now this should further confuse anyone following this thread even more...don't stress out about it...as that is probably the worst factor....

Q. Are you looking for the genetic markers for longevity?

A. Yes, and we've found several so far. The most important thing we've found is that most centenarians have a lot more than average H.D.L. proteins, the good cholesterol, in their blood. Also, they had a lot more of them when they were younger, because their children have a lot more than their peers do. Also, size matters with the protein molecules. Eighty percent of the children of the centenarians had larger than average high density lipoproteins.


The most common thing this group had is that they did not reveal any particular lifestyle secret for their own longevity. When asked specifically, none has exercised. None was a vegetarian. Not a single one ate yogurt throughout his life.

In fact, 30 percent were overweight. Some smoked. The fact that they had a strong family history of exceptional longevity seemed to be the main commonality. This supports the notion that they have special genes protecting them from their environment.
from conversations with Dr Nit Barzila on his centurian study...
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E00E1DC173CF937A15751C0A9629C8B 63&sec=health&spon=&pagewanted=1

Mike ODonnell
04-09-2008, 01:00 PM
So, finally, if 65% of our calories came form lean meat and 35% came form fruits and vegetables, how in the sam hell did HGs ever reach 4100 calories a day, while mainting 8-12% body fat?

WoollyMamouth Mass Gain 3000 shakes......

I find it hard they ate 4100 cal A day...what about the whole feast and fast rotation that we base all this IF on? If game was lower in fat....where did the calories come from, honey? The numbers seem off....

R. Alan Hester
04-09-2008, 01:01 PM
Not that I ever intended to eat more fruits and vegetables....as meat and fat are what I crave....but now this should further confuse anyone following this thread even more...don't stress out about it...as that is probably the worst factor....


from conversations with Dr Nit Barzila on his centurian study...
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E00E1DC173CF937A15751C0A9629C8B 63&sec=health&spon=&pagewanted=1

Good, point. I accept that stress is (the most?) important, but I am just trying to get to the bottom of this. Many here have rejected the "FDA recommended diet for health," while almost fully embracing the Paleo gig--myself included. But I think it is still important to question it, lest we become blind followers of another theory.

R. Alan Hester
04-09-2008, 01:05 PM
WoollyMamouth Mass Gain 3000 shakes......

I find it hard they ate 4100 cal A day...what about the whole feast and fast rotation that we base all this IF on? If game was lower in fat....where did the calories come from, honey? The numbers seem off....

That is my point. The numbers don't work for me. However, I am not an award-winning mathematician that posts pictures of himself, so i could be missing something. we shall get to the bottom of this.

Mike ODonnell
04-09-2008, 01:07 PM
That is my point. The numbers don't work for me. However, I am not an award-winning mathematician that posts pictures of himself, so i could be missing something. we shall get to the bottom of this.

come on...those are sweet triceps...

Steve Liberati
04-09-2008, 02:52 PM
According to Dr. Eaton author of the The Paleo Prescription, it is pretty much noncontroversial and almost uniformly accepted that our paleolithic ancestors consumed a low-fat diet at around 20% of total daily calories with majority of carbs coming from high-fiber, complex sources at aro 60% of total daily calories. In his research, he contends that the typical Late Paleolithic h&g'ers obtained from 100 to 150 g daily of carbs - an amount similar to that consumed by today's rural Africans. Also worth noting, that of that 150 g of carbs the majority (130 g) of fiber (mostly soluble) is eaten. A reasonable estimate of their average daily energy need would therefore be around 3,000 calories.

The carbohydrates eaten by Late Paleolithic hunters and gatherers came from wild tubers, berries, roots shoots, edible leaves and flowers, seeds, fruits, gums fungi, nuts, and honey.

So while it may come as a surprise to most (i know it did for me), the evidence seems to show that fat was consumed in much smaller ratios by our remarkably fit paleolithic relatives than we like to think.

Reminds of the post Art D wrote about him cutting off the extra fat from his steak before grilling it. Despite the man's love for himself, he sure knows a thing of two about evolutionary nutrition.

Mike ODonnell
04-09-2008, 03:50 PM
from Art's archives....
It is true that my diet is somewhat higher in fat than either the ADA or AHA recommends. But, my sources of fat are primarily in the Omega 3 and unsaturated fats such as salmon, tuna, nuts, and olive oil. PaleoGal may have a point in observing that by eating low fat meats or trimming the meat to reduce fat content, that there is a bit of an inconsistency in my diet. This is only an apparent inconsistency though.

I am altering my cell membrane fatty acid profile by choosing to eat this way. Membrane cholesterol content is important and my diet leads to flexible, permeable membranes with low cholesterol content. This has many benefits for cell plasticity and function, but it does make the membrane more susceptible to oxidative damage. Hence, the high antioxidant content of my diet.

Altering the membrane fatty acid profile alters its insulin sensitivity. Excess cholesterol content diminishes insulin sensitivity. This is one of the reasons the ADA recommends a high carb diet, though paradoxically, this induces insulin resistance too. A cholesterol laden membrane impairs insulin sensitivity and reduces the stimulation of GLUT4. Thus, we might call this lipid (fat) resistance. Trivalent chromium reduces membrane cholesterol content, which may be the pathway through which chromium improves insulin sensitivity. See the Abstract below for more details (it is almost unreadable unless you are a specialist, but I want you to know there is research that clearly supports what I am saying).

Thus, both elevated insulin. elevated membrane cholesterol, and elevated FFAs induce insulin resistance. Membrane cholesterol content is a contributing factor. So, protect your membranes.

It is sometimes said that fish is brain food. The connection may be that fish sources of fatty acids alter the membrane fatty acid content of brain cells, making them more sensitive to the action of insulin. Certainly, the more pliable cell membrane that results makes the brain cells more flexible and more apt to generate new connections. This would promote learning and brain metabolism. The areas of the brain most susceptible to Alzheimer's are the most insulin sensitive. Thus, the loss of insulin sensitivity through the mechanisms described may contribute to premature senility. I suspect the current epidemic of insulin resistant diabetes will be followed by an epidemic of Alzheimer's disease or insulin resistant senility.

Exercise induces GLUT4 upregulation and metabolism of glucose and FFAs. Why wouldn't you do it? A diet low in cholesterol and high in unsaturated fats gives you the right composition of cell membranes. Why wouldn't you eat this way? It is delicious and close to what our ancestors did. Add a bit of intermittent fasting, make the exercise intermittent, fun, and challenging and get leaner and smarter. That is the Evolutionary Fitness Way.

Ok....here's my question....if your body makes 80% of your daily cholesterol...(other 20% coming from food intake)....and it is said that even if you drop the intake of cholesterol your body will just make more....how is he lowering cholesterol content by trimming fat? So now are eggs bad in Art's book too? This seems contradictory.....as the body produces most of it and diet is just a small influence. Also what about sat fat for more stable cell membrane structure as cancer cells were noted as having very soft walls.....seems more high risk move or one needing more antioxidants to stay healthy.

Mike ODonnell
04-09-2008, 03:53 PM
fat was consumed in much smaller ratios by our remarkably fit paleolithic relatives than we like to think.

Isn't that also what Cordain wrote in Paleo Diet?

Greg Battaglia
04-09-2008, 04:22 PM
I like to state quite clearly that although I think Cordain's advice is good, in some areas he's really full of shit. He states that 65% of calories should come from lean animal protein sources and 35% from plant foods. He then says that protein intake that exceeds 35% of daily calories is rabbit starvation? Complete contradiction.

My take: Cordain uses the "high protein" pitch in place of the truth to avoid being called a quack. Most people when told that a diet of lean meats and fruits and vegetables is healthy will agree that it sounds right. However, if you told people that a proper hunter-gatherer diet was based on organ meats like brain, heart, liver, and bone marrow with plenty of animal fat, low GI vegetables, and starchy tubers they will likely say "Ewww!" and declare you a quack or a weirdo.

That being said, I think the evidence is clear that our ancestors ate lots of animal fat, including saturated fat. In fact, the mass extinction of large land animals like mammoths was likely a result of H/G's over-hunting them.

Of course most people aren't going to eat organ meats, hence the modern prescription of lots of green, lots of good fats, and adequate protein.

As for centenarians being vegetarians, they're not. They eat vegetarian 6 days a week and eat meat on Sundays in Sardinia. Daily, they consume raw goats milk and pecorino cheese (in my mind, eating this stuff doesn't qualify as vegetarian despite what the technical definitions are, it comes from an animal). They certainly get lots of animal fat from the whole milk and cheese. They also eat lots of meat on special occasions like holidays or festivals. Same for Okinawans; they eat meat several times a week, but not daily and always eat lots of meat (including organs) on special occasions as well. Pork is their main meat source. The Nicoyans eat eggs and pork as well. The only blue zone (high cent. pop.) that eats pure vegetarian are the 7th day adventists in Loma Linda, CA and I a credit their longevity with CR and close family/social ties.

When it comes to random, sedentary centenarians in the U.S.A or elsewhere that fall outside of a blue zone it's impossible to know whether their longevity is due to lifestyle or genes. We know that blue zone cultures acquire their longevity mostly through lifestyle because when people from these populations adopt westernized lifestyles they get all the diseases of civilization.

Steve Liberati
04-09-2008, 04:57 PM
My take: Cordain uses the "high protein" pitch in place of the truth to avoid being called a quack. Most people when told that a diet of lean meats and fruits and vegetables is healthy will agree that it sounds right. However, if you told people that a proper hunter-gatherer diet was based on organ meats like brain, heart, liver, and bone marrow with plenty of animal fat, low GI vegetables, and starchy tubers they will likely say "Ewww!" and declare you a quack or a weirdo.

That being said, I think the evidence is clear that our ancestors ate lots of animal fat, including saturated fat. In fact, the mass extinction of large land animals like mammoths was likely a result of H/G's over-hunting them.

Of course most people aren't going to eat organ meats, hence the modern prescription of lots of green, lots of good fats, and adequate protein.


Indeed man, indeed. Sure the evidence is clear that our ancestors ate lots of animal fats, but I think this where most people get confused about the paleo diet. While animal fat consumption was high, the percentage of fat consumed to total daily calories was quite low (little as 20%).

The reason for this is because the meat that our ancestors consumed was very different nutritionally from the meat we find in the typical supermarket today. Just compare the fat content contained in a bison burger to that of a grain-fed sirloin burger raised on hormones and antibiotics. The difference is literally like day and night.

Just makes you laugh when you hear someone say their following a paleo diet where protein and fat is a complete free for eating a 15 ounce steak and pouring a cup of olive oil on a side salad.

When in reality, its far from a true paleo cuisine.

Mike ODonnell
04-09-2008, 06:32 PM
majority of carbs coming from high-fiber, complex sources at aro 60% of total daily calories. In his research, he contends that the typical Late Paleolithic h&g'ers obtained from 100 to 150 g daily of carbs - an amount similar to that consumed by today's rural Africans. Also worth noting, that of that 150 g of carbs the majority (130 g) of fiber (mostly soluble) is eaten. A reasonable estimate of their average daily energy need would therefore be around 3,000 calories.

Are my numbers correct.....150g carbs daily from complex sources....x4 = 600 calories from carbs......which is 60% of daily calories....so total calorie intake has to be 1000 calories (60% of 1000=600 calories)? I am way off on something here....but must be too tired to figure it out.....as for 3000 calories, 60% is 1800 calories with is 450grams of carbohydrates a day from complex sources....which seems impossible to eat that high with only paleo carbs.

Steve Liberati
04-09-2008, 06:39 PM
You're right Einstein, the numbers don't add up. I'm thinking Dr Boyd was guess estimating their daily cal needs taking into consideration they're high physical activity levels, as opposed to how many calories they consumed in a day.

Again, I believe he was referring to avg daily energy need vs. actual intake. But I could be wrong. It wouldn't be the first time.

Greg Battaglia
04-09-2008, 06:52 PM
Mike,
I agree that overall game meat is much leaner than domestic meats. However, Our ancestors didn't eat much muscle meat, if at all. Initially our H/G ancestors became scavengers, eating the brains and bone marrow leftovers that couldn't be accessed by the predators that killed the animal. The very high concentration of n-3's in brain tissue is thought o have spurred the development of superior brain function in humans, which led to hunting the animals themselves, consuming the organs almost exclusively (in the context of the animal, they still ate plant foods in addition).

Also, contemporary H/G's eat the organ almost exclusively as well. What I'm trying to say is that the fatty acid profile comparison between muscle meats is irrelevant, since these weren't the parts consumed. The fatty acid distribution is different in organs. So comparing the fatty acid concentrations in organs would be relevant, but it's not. I'd be interested in seeing a comparison between bone marrow and brain fatty acid profiles of grass-fed and grain-fed cattle, or even wild variants. To my knowledge they don't exist.

Mike,
I'm curious, not challenging your perspective, just curious what a typical meal of yours looks like. I'm curious how it would compare to my own meals.

Craig Loizides
04-09-2008, 07:09 PM
Here's a good article from Cordain:

http://thepaleodiet.com/articles/CRC%20Chapter%202006a.pdf

73 % of hunter gatherers get more than 50% of their calories from meat and fish. The average is about 65 %. Like Greg mentioned there is a protein ceiling of about 35%. Using these numbers he estimates that the average hunter gatherer (65% animal/35% plant) gets about 20-35% protein, 40-60 %fat, and 20-25% carb. About 15% of total calories are saturated fat. How do you get to 15% saturated fat eating lean meat and trimming the visible fat?

Mike ODonnell
04-09-2008, 07:21 PM
Mike,
I'm curious, not challenging your perspective, just curious what a typical meal of yours looks like. I'm curious how it would compare to my own meals.

I'm guessing the first reply up top was meant for Steve.....

As for my meals? I can honestly say it is random...no set pattern except for having meat. Veggies? Not always. Fruits? here and there. Grains? Here and there. Do I eat the same thing every day? No. Do I count calories or weigh or measure anything? No. High carb meals mean low fat intake...lower carb means higher fat...protein is pretty consistent but not always. I eat how I feel I need to be. I've done enough experimentation to be more in tune with what I think I need. Do I experiment even more? Of course. Honestly as long as you are eating non-processed carbs, not eating/drinking crap with sugar and staying away from transfats and excess PUFAs....there is only so much you can do with the food ratios after that....and they all work in one shape or form depending on what your goals and activity level are. When it comes down to it....if you are eating a majority of Paleo "kinds" of foods....there are bigger things to worry about in life.

Personally I am getting over using the word "Paleo" too often as it's seeming more and more to be a trend people are taking to the extreme and has many different meanings along the way....which I don't think was the initial intention....plus debating the minor details past all the major parameters that lead to the most health benefit conflicts with my desire to lead a more simple life. Optimal IF is random....optimal eating patterns are random....optimal exercise is random....optimal food choices are random......optimal results are from randomized approached....with a level of programming as the base model (aka choosing from healthy foods or the right exercises and rep scheme).

Greg Battaglia
04-10-2008, 04:06 AM
Yeah, sorry, meant to say "Steve, not "Mike".

Very well. I can't disagree, I've found the same. The second I fall into a pattern is when I plateau altogether.

Steve Liberati
04-10-2008, 04:07 AM
Mike,
Not for nothing but you still didn't tell us what a typical meal of yours looks like. I'm pretty curious myself. "I eat how I feel I need to be" is just so vague. You seem to always have all the right answers to practically every single post on this board, yet when we ask you what a typical meal of yours looks like you give us your philosophy on keeping things simple.

Sorry just sometimes it seems you are so concerned about doing your own thing (unlike the rest of us sheep) and going against the grain even if you did follow the paleo or zone diet like most of us do here on the board you wouldn't admit it.

Tom Rawls
04-10-2008, 08:06 AM
Would I be correct in thinking the various percentages of macronutrients paleo humans ate was an average? Wouldn't there have been a lot of daily and seasonal variation? Some days, after a good kill, lots of meat. Some days, when fruits were ripe, lots of carbs.

And if I read the comments correctly, there is some question as to what percentages of fat and carbs were consumed.

Taken together. it is difficult for me to see how a paelo "prescription" for percentages of macronutrients could be firm. It seems more reasonable to narrow the types of foods.

As a final question, how do people view eating so-called paleo foods that are out of season or can only be grown in another locals--apples in late winter and coconut milk in the North, for examples?

Susie Rosenberg
04-10-2008, 09:09 AM
I'm kind of the same way about my food these days---intuitive, mindful eating. I'm not MOD, but if anyone's interested, here's how I eat:

I follow some guidelines:

1. I practice mindful eating: the art of paying attention to sensation and satiety.
2. I eat whole, real foods.
3. I construct meals with a lot of vegetables, then add some high-quality protein and some healthy fat.
4. I drink 1-2 glasses of red wine a week because I like it.
5. I try to eat mostly local and in season. I belong to a CSA for produce and I'm in the process of organizing a buying club for local, organic grassfed meats and free-range poultry and eggs.
6. I eat whole grains when I feel the need, mostly oatmeal, barley, quinoa, millet, and brown rice (probably in that order). I eat dairy in the form of Greek yogurt and cottage cheese. This morning, for example, I ate oatmeal w/ almond butter and Greek yogurt.
7. I practice IF on the order of twice a week, on average, just because I like how it feels.

Susie

Mike ODonnell
04-10-2008, 09:16 AM
Mike,
Not for nothing but you still didn't tell us what a typical meal of yours looks like. I'm pretty curious myself. "I eat how I feel I need to be" is just so vague. You seem to always have all the right answers to practically every single post on this board, yet when we ask you what a typical meal of yours looks like you give us your philosophy on keeping things simple.

Sorry just sometimes it seems you are so concerned about doing your own thing (unlike the rest of us sheep) and going against the grain even if you did follow the paleo or zone diet like most of us do here on the board you wouldn't admit it.

Not trying to imply anyone is a sheep for following a set diet....it's just I really don't follow a set of daily rules (outside of not eating/drinking sugar, eating protein, eating whole foods and trying to stick with my rules for 90% of the time...which isn't hard because I never eat junk food)...like today...after playing 2 hockey games in 3 days I am completely bonked....so today is higher carb load day....which may include chicken, beef, rice, sweet potatoes and fruit....not worried about fat content today. Once I feel replenished I may go tomorrow with eggs/olive oil/some cheese....or beef and broccoli with a side of fruit....or fajitas at Taco Mac with a Guinness....or go have a pizza (which is my worst cheat food)....so you see, no direct plan involved but I know how I need to eat and base it on how I feel. I tried low carb....didn't work for me....I tried 100% Paleo...didn't work for me.....I tried Zone....drove me insane.....so now I have lessons learned from all and apply them day to day. I feel great, I feel healthy and as said before there are bigger lifestyle factors in overall health that I need to work on more. Unfortunately that is the most direct answer you will get out of me....since I don't log my food or know exact ratios per meal, because I am trying to get past that obsessive minded thinking from many years ago that left me feeling unhappy.....and being unhappy is no way to live life. Hope that helps.....and yes I admit to nothing....just as a Zen lesson that you shouldn't be concerned with what I am doing with my life and just focus on finding that happiness within. ;)

Addition...after reading Susie's post I guess I could agree with much of her rules for eating...although being the rebel I never like to say that I am following any rules...but rather I just choose not to eat processed or sugar....once you get of those you are only left with whole foods. The only set rule I tend to follow is if I am eating more higher carbs, the fat is low...and lower carbs, fat is higher.

Mike ODonnell
04-10-2008, 09:25 AM
I follow some guidelines:

1. I practice mindful eating: the art of paying attention to sensation and satiety.
2. I eat whole, real foods.
3. I construct meals with a lot of vegetables, then add some high-quality protein and some healthy fat.
4. I drink 1-2 glasses of red wine a week because I like it.
5. I try to eat mostly local and in season. I belong to a CSA for produce and I'm in the process of organizing a buying club for local, organic grassfed meats and free-range poultry and eggs.
6. I eat whole grains when I feel the need, mostly oatmeal, barley, quinoa, millet, and brown rice (probably in that order). I eat dairy in the form of Greek yogurt and cottage cheese. This morning, for example, I ate oatmeal w/ almond butter and Greek yogurt.
7. I practice IF on the order of twice a week, on average, just because I like how it feels.

Susie

Sounds like a perfect plan!

John Alston
04-10-2008, 11:12 AM
For an argument against 100% paleo dieting I would look at the marginal utility.

.

It's how we should be looking at all this diet crap. It (marginal utility) seems to get lost here, stuck on caveman theory, science in small sample sizes, and the fact that you could get hit by a truck before you're old enough to develop western-diet induced aged-feebleness.
Paleo this, paleo that... maybe there is a non-paleo food that by luck is actually better for us than we were able to scavenge up off the savanna?

Honestly, this thread involves a lot of thinking about things of probably minor marginal utility amongst a group of probably some of the healthier living folks around.
I skipped most of it because it had scant little to do with lifting progressively heavier shit.

Dave Van Skike
04-10-2008, 11:29 AM
troofness.

humans are the cockroaches of the primate world. we can thrive on just about that doesn't induce vomiting, and many things that do.

Eat meat and plants, as much as possible, sometimes don't.

Mike ODonnell
04-10-2008, 11:44 AM
Honestly, this thread involves a lot of thinking about things of probably minor marginal utility amongst a group of probably some of the healthier living folks around.

Agreed.....I'll probably go in some tragically comical yet ironic darwinian turn of events anyways.....so better get on with living.....

Mike ODonnell
04-10-2008, 12:22 PM
For example, I just read an article at my girlfriends house that was in an issue of AARP titled "Living to 100" that looked into the diet and lifestyle of a Costa Rican village called Nicoya that has an unusually high percentage of centenarians.

Is this the article Greg?
http://www.aarpmagazine.org/lifestyle/living_healthy_to_100.html

“Dan, these Nicoyans are so incredible,” she answered. “They are so positive and so devoted to their families. All but one of the 33 Nicoyans we have met live with their family.” Elizabeth was looking at me, gesticulating as we walked. “They have a wonderful support network. They also tend to have a large number of visitors that they receive almost every afternoon, which is both a physical and psychological safety net.”

Then, with the optimism characteristic of many centenarians, she concluded, “I am a blessed woman today.”

She doesn’t live in a nice home. She’s so poor yet so satisfied with what she has. There was a total acceptance.

I noticed that when you ask the most highly functioning seniors how they are, they always say, ‘I feel good'

good article....brings to light what really matters...

Greg Battaglia
04-10-2008, 02:39 PM
Yep, that's the article. I'm currently reading the book that the author wrote. It's called "The Blue Zone". So far it's very interesting, but overall the message remains the same. Low calorie, nutrient dense diets, good outlook, something to live for, family, activity built into the lifestyle. All good stuff.

Susie,
I like your plan, simple and effective. Ross Enamait has possibly the most simple dietary recommendation I've come across, to paraphrase " Eat whole, natural foods found in nature. To gain weight eat more. To lose weight eat less."

Couldn't be more simple or accurate.

Greg Battaglia
04-10-2008, 03:49 PM
Since we're on the topic of what a proper Paleo diet is I was perusing Staffan Lindeberg's cool site ( www.saffanlindeberg.com ) earlier today. If you look at the pictures of the Kitavan people on this site you'll notice that they are very lean and muscular. They also tend to enjoy a virtual absence of Syndrome X diseases. Ironically (in low-carb eyes, anyway) their diet is 70% carbohydrate. Their main staples are tubers, tropical fruit (High GI), vegetables, coconut, and fish in order from the most consumed to least.

Could be a good argument for the plant-based idea. However, this gets me to thinking. Could it be that Kitavans, specifically, are adapted to this sort of diet, whereas Europeans are not? Dr. G touched on this in another post, stating that Northern Europeans aren't very tolerant to melons and other tropical fruit because they adapted to foods that exist in colder climates.

On that note, it might help some people to adjust their paleo food types based on ethnicity (ie N. Europeans would eat a low-carb, meat-based diet, Africans a plant-based diet focusing on nuts, fruits, tubers, etc)

The problem that arises in my mind is what about in betweeners? I guess you could classify my ethnicity as "White" but it's pretty well known that Sicilians have mixed heritage, ranging from Scandanavian to Greek to Arab and North African. So for those with mixed heritage it could just be a matter of experimentation. Of course, this whole theory is just speculation. Some might argue that since most of human evolution occurred in Africa, we should follow that template. And here I go complicating things again, lol. Anyway, just some food for thought.

Mike ODonnell
04-10-2008, 04:29 PM
And here I go complicating things again, lol. Anyway, just some food for thought.

Yup......I'm out....time to get outside and see what the world has to offer! :)

John Alston
04-10-2008, 04:41 PM
http://i31.tinypic.com/34e3gqt.jpg

Steve Liberati
04-10-2008, 05:56 PM
Mike, thanks for not taking my post from earlier personal. Just feeling a little touchy lately trying to shake off this bug I have. Went to the doc tonight and actually found out I have an upper respiratory infection with early signs of bronchitis. Although I tend to shy away from anitbiotics and medication as much as possible, this time I told them to pour it on. This might explain the cartoon John Alston's posted above. Infections were probably a killer back then.

Mike ODonnell
04-10-2008, 06:09 PM
Mike, thanks for not taking my post from earlier personal. Just feeling a little touchy lately trying to shake off this bug I have. Went to the doc tonight and actually found out I have an upper respiratory infection with early signs of bronchitis. Although I tend to shy away from anitbiotics and medication as much as possible, this time I told them to pour it on. This might explain the cartoon John Alston's posted above. Infections were probably a killer back then.

I take nothing personal...no worries. I know what you mean about being run down....it happens to the best of us (as I felt like crap yesterday too after too much hockey and not enough food...took care of that today and feel like a champ again). As for everytime I think I feel rundown...ACV and water to the rescue! See if you can see anything that led up to it...too much exercise, not enough food, not enough sleep, too much stress.....too much stress...;)..may learn something about your lifestyle to improve on as I like to say there is always a reason for things that happen...a lessoned to be learned always. Anyways I'm sure you know to cycle back on the probiotics when you are off the antibiotics...keep that gut healthy and happy! So hurry up and get healthy....no one likes the cranky side of you...especially if we are going to be on the next spaceship together.

Jason Naubur
04-10-2008, 07:28 PM
Wow. Just read through this post.

Diet == complex

The more I read, the more I realize that I don't know much about it.

I read Cordain. Then this. Then Sears. Then DeVany. They all sound good when you read them.

Maybe it is just - Natural foods, good lifestyle and all will fall into place.

Aargh.


jason

Greg Battaglia
04-10-2008, 09:45 PM
Jason,
We just get our jollies off theorizing about this stuff. You're right, it's so simple. I was feeling a bit philosophical earlier, hence the rant about ethnicity and diet, etc. Just ignore me when I get too specific. Just to end your confusion: always revert back to the Crossfit dietary prescription of "eat garden vegetables, lean meats, nuts and seeds, some fruit, little starch and no sugar" when you get bogged down by paralysis-by-overanalysis. When can always debate the minor stuff, but that's not what matters, it's the big picture. To put the CF prescription into practice, listen to Art D. The proof is in the pudding, and this dude is very healthy and fit at age 70.

MOD,
I apologize man, I've been spednign far too much time on the net. I need to get a life!

Steve,
Sucks you got sick man. We may be paleo, but we're still mortals, sometimes this stuff gets us. I hope you enjoyed the good weather today (man was it beautiful) because that extra vitamin D should certainly help boost your immune function. I soaked that sun up nicely during my lunch break today and it really brightened my day (pun intended). Remember we were talking about how we can't wait for spring to come so we could get over the winter slump? Well, it seems it's finally here. Hope you get better fast man.

Chris Bardwell
04-11-2008, 12:15 AM
http://i31.tinypic.com/34e3gqt.jpg

Thats very good stuff, I like it.

I will post my philosophies on eating maybe it will help out.


Fasting is very important and should be partaken a few times a week I prefer the Robb Wolf Style of a 5pm to 10am fast including my workout.
I try not to eat grains, starch etc, but don't freak out if the only thing I can pick up for lunch is a sandwhich.
Go out and relax a few times a week; have a few beers, Vodka/Lime/Sodas and tequila shots with friends.
I eat ravenously when hungry
Only eat a big meal when hungry, but I like to graze on carrots, berries, cucumbers etc
No food for 2-3 hours before bed, sleep slightly hungry if you can't get used to it
Eat a diet consisiting of; Meat, Fruit, Vegtables, Healthy fats (organic yoghurt/cheese in moderation) and thats it, simplifies my life in a lot of cases
Have a glass of red wine with dinner every night, since doing this well-being is up, cravings are down and I am learning about wine.


BTW anyone here going to Art Devany's seminar in Vegas?

R. Alan Hester
04-11-2008, 05:03 AM
listen to Art D. The proof is in the pudding, and this dude is very healthy and fit at age 70.

Clarence Bass is in his 70s, and he eats whole grains.:confused: I think we let Art D get away with hero status too often. Just because one is "living proof" does not mean it can be extrapolated to the larger population. Just saying. I figure if we are going to mentally masturbate, we might as well change up the picture every once in a while, you know.:)

R. Alan Hester
04-11-2008, 05:09 AM
BTW anyone here going to Art Devany's seminar in Vegas?

I was not panning on it. I prefer to wait and hear reports and perhaps see the video. After his little pissing and moaning session yesterday, who would? His coming in “top shape” makes me worried it would be a let-us-look-at-pictures-of-me seminar. Aren’t I beautiful? AREN’T I BEAUTIFUL!!!!

Lets us know how it goes.

Craig Loizides
04-11-2008, 06:57 AM
Greg, I was just reading about the Kitavans recently. The thing I found interesting is that not only do they eat 70% carbohydrate, but 3/4 of them also smoke every day (paleo cigarettes?). Still they remain almost completely disease free. Their diet is completely free of sugar and processed foods. I think if you just do that you'll be 90% there. After that, black box to see what works for you. I agree though, it is fun debating the last 10%.

Greg Battaglia
04-11-2008, 07:16 AM
Alan,
I was saying that Art D. is the guy to follow if you're going the Paleo route.

I don't doubt that one can eat grains and be healthy. I've personally eaten grains as a significant component of my diet in the past, and felt great. But since we know a lot about anthropology and we can look into the past at our ancestors diets, Paleo is probably a good starting template. You can always tweak along the way, and if you find that grains work, then add them in.

Ross Enamait doesn't count calories, macros, meal times, etc. He just eats whole, unprocessed foods in moderation. Can't argue with that much.

Mike ODonnell
04-11-2008, 07:51 AM
MOD,
I apologize man, I've been spednign far too much time on the net. I need to get a life!

I find it directly relational...the more time I spend on the computer...the more tired I feel, cranky I get, happiness declines and the worse I sleep....the less time...I feel great and full of energy.....maybe it has to do something with all the positive energy in nature/life/people that you don't get looking at a screen.....or as I say, my laptop sucks the life out of me little by little (like those damn matrix machines using humans as batteries)....either way....I've learned to be on this thing less and less (although been doing way too much programming lately for my new site...will be glad when that is done) and get more done in short time windows...which means cutting out the things that don't matter on the net....which seems to be most things out there! Life is what you make it...so go live the life that makes others jealous.

Mike ODonnell
04-11-2008, 08:01 AM
Ross Enamait doesn't count calories, macros, meal times, etc. He just eats whole, unprocessed foods in moderation. Can't argue with that much.

Yeah but what is his meal like? I mean I have to know!! Ha....sorry having a little fun. :)

As for Art....looks like his ego took a hit with his first lesson of the internet blogging world business model.....everyone wants it for free.....good luck getting people to show up at your door for $30...let alone $300....he would do well to just sell a DVD, although if you piss off your readers and take the blog private....good luck selling much after that...as the info is always out there for free somewhere. I mean once you get the message and understand it that 95% of your health will come from...eating whole foods...exercise...active lifestyles....have a fullfilling & stress free (or controlled) life....being around good supportive relationships/friends (get away from anything else)....is there really anything revolutionary left?

Read less.....act more....my personal new motto as I need to stop being so OCD about research this and read that...and just live what I know is true...the results will follow.

John Alston
04-11-2008, 09:17 AM
Wow. Just read through this post.
Diet == complex
The more I read, the more I realize that I don't know much about it.
I read Cordain. Then this. Then Sears. Then DeVany. They all sound good when you read them.
Maybe it is just - Natural foods, good lifestyle and all will fall into place.
Aargh.
jason

There's a reason people call the PM the home of the fitness nerds. It's true in the good and bad ways. Yes, a lot of thought, effort and research goes on - the good.
But beware of paralysis by analysis.

Mike ODonnell
04-11-2008, 10:44 AM
Buying Organic foods.....$100
Reading many books on Health....$300
Spending time researching every tribe on earth....$4000
Realizing that we just lost 5 years stressing over what we need to do to live longer only to know some fisherman in Greece who smokes and drinks and ignorant to all the above research will outlive us all....Priceless....

Greg Battaglia
04-11-2008, 02:32 PM
Haha, funny stuff MOD!

I agree. It seems that since I've become more lazy and attached to my job I've become less alive and more like the ordinary miserable people. After a pretty personal issue I went through not too long ago I kinda lost all of my drive. Started drinking again, didn't workout as much, didn't care if I didn't get enough sleep, hung out in bars with miserable people, etc. Fortunately I came to my senses and realized that I was becoming the miserable person I promised myself I'd never be. Know I'm much closer to being 100% again and have no desire for drinking or any BS like that. I walk for an hour everyday and do my shoulder rehab program (which, by the way has done more for my shoulders than anything else, and it was free. Check it out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0ONHZmsFec ). I've been hitting the hay by 10:00 consistently, and as always my diet is dialed tightly, so I'm feeling tons better.

It amazes me how people live their everyday lives like this and consider it a normal existence (in fact, all they really do is exist, rather than truly live)

I have the same problem with the computer. It gives me a headache and if i sit long enough I literally become depressed. I'm going to start limiting PC use big time.

Thanks for the advice, always great to have an incredible community like this to fall back on when one gets lost.

Mike ODonnell
04-13-2008, 09:06 PM
Nothing wrong with going out for a drink or two with friends....but also there comes that point in the night where I can just walk away before the next shift of more crazy people walk in the bar. People may not understand why I choose to leave early sometimes, but I could care less. People use things like drugs and alcohol to actually forget about the past...or future...and live only in the moment....Hmmmm have we heard that before?? (The whole "Power of Now" thing). Funny...that is what alcohol and drugs do and why they are so popular...because it makes people happy....but only temporarily and usually with consequences. If people took time out to learn how to focus their minds without the drugs/alcohol on the present moment...they could find that same happiness....except it lasts and has no consequences.

Oh yeah....about this whole "let's eat more veggies" thing....what about our friend the Inuits? Of course in their defense they ate enough organs to get the right vitamins....so of course today you would want vitamins, and they had meat and fats....but most of their diet was healthy MUFA (not sat) fats.....so a diet low in fruit/veg, mod protein and high fat worked for them.....of course they lived outside, little exposure to toxins, had an active lifestyle, probably no stress, a strong community....etc...etc...etc. I don't think you will find a longevity group of people with a high % of their diet as protein (you don't need that much esp if you consider higher fat diets increase nitrogen retention).....but moderate (like 30%) and plenty of vitamins (in modern cases more from fruits/veg), lots of healthy fats including a good Omega 3/6 balance, low/no exposure to excessive Omega 6s, low toxin environment, and no sugar or trans-fats. That will work for most everyone.

Just did a blog post on the Inuit (http://projectfit.org/iflifeblog/2008/04/13/the-inuit-paradox-high-fat-lower-heart-disease-and-cancer/) as all this is starting to really come full circle in my own head...and it all makes sense....

Greg Battaglia
04-14-2008, 05:53 PM
MOD,
I agree. People use drugs and alcohol in an attempt to be happy. I can't tell you how many times I've heard "You might be healthy avoiding drugs, alcohol, and fast food, but I'd rather die you and happy than old and miserable". I usually respond with "I am happy. Are you really happy? You seem pretty edgy when you're not drunk, or run out of cigarettes". I usually get a half-assed answer and then the person changes the subject.

I think it's pretty clear that eating a ton of protein isn't a great idea. I always felt best on a high fat, low carb (but definitely high vegetable), moderate-low protein diet. I think when it comes to a diet tailored toward longevity whole foods, low calories, and lower protein (lower than Cordain recommendations) is the way to go. My meals recently have meat as a supplemental food, with lots of vegetables, healthy fats, some nuts, and some fruit. Works good for feeling healthy, but I don't know how it would go over for athletes.

Mike ODonnell
04-14-2008, 06:28 PM
Works good for feeling healthy, but I don't know how it would go over for athletes.

Who ever said what competitive athletes do is healthy in terms of longevity and disease prevention? If you get paid to do athletic events and have to eat for that income...that's one thing....everything else is a lifestyle choice...as you can go overboard on it...or find a happy moderation that still promotes long term health. Sounds like you have a good plan that works....and that is all that matters.

Michael Miller
04-15-2008, 03:51 AM
I think it's pretty clear that eating a ton of protein isn't a great idea. I always felt best on a high fat, low carb (but definitely high vegetable), moderate-low protein diet. I think when it comes to a diet tailored toward longevity whole foods, low calories, and lower protein (lower than Cordain recommendations) is the way to go.

Sounds good to me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZN8ptwaRm5Q&eurl=http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2008/04/15/long-life-how-to-beat-nature-at-its-own-game.aspx