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View Full Version : My stomach is rebelling against me...


Patrick Donnelly
04-15-2008, 09:14 PM
Really, I'm not all that surprised, but I'd like it to go back to being a peaceful, submissive stomach. I'm currently training 4 days per week, focusing on Oly lifts and gymnastics, with short MetCons on two of the days. I'm enjoying it so far. I'm also trying to gain weight and balance out my XC runner proportions, since bottom-heaviness is not conducive to things like the front lever. I've been doing this for 7 weeks so far.

During weeks 1-5, I went from 178 to 184, by maintaining my (too high) nut intake, and ramping up to adding 6oz of olive oil (~1400 calories) five nights a week by the third week. I can definitely tell that it's already made a difference.

However, recently, I've been finding it very hard to get it all down. My nut intake has dropped by about 50% (not to mention that once delicious almond butter now tastes like Elmer's paste in my mouth), my protein intake has dropped by about 15% (from 20 blocks per day), and the mere thought of drinking more oil makes me want to hurl. Seriously. I've expanded my IF window to about 6 hours, and 7-8 when possible, but by the end of it, I feel like every bite I take is pushing out against the walls of my stomach. This is all while eating less food than in the past few weeks, and seemingly less food than before I even began trying to gain weight (though I am still getting in some olive oil, which probably throws the calories way up there).


How do I convince my body to let me feed it?


NB. This food all meets Paleo criteria, except ice cream once a week, and chocolate once every 3-4 weeks (at the same meal as the ice cream). However, my meat, eggs, etc. are the average type. Nearly all nuts are eaten as butters, since they digest a lot better. There are no signs of foul digestion. The only supplement I take is 1tbsp/day of Carlson's fish oil. I don't want to give up IF, since it is very convenient, and when I wake up in the morning now, I'm honestly awake; I've even been waking up naturally on 7.5 hours of sleep, feeling amazing.


Goodnight, and thanks in advance,
Patrick

Mike ODonnell
04-15-2008, 10:58 PM
if you want to gain weight and dont want to eat 6000 cal a day....workout less and dump all metcons.

Chris Forbis
04-16-2008, 04:45 AM
I had similar issues when I did a mass gain cycle. I was supplementing with a coconut milk / whey calorie bomb (1200 cals). After about 6 weeks, my stomach would hurt so bad after drinking it I'd have to lay down for an hour. So I cut it out.

I kept gaining weight, even with the drop from 5200 to 4000 cals a day.

Steve Liberati
04-16-2008, 05:03 AM
Try taking digestive enzyme pills and a good probiotic. I would also cut back on meat until your compactor starts properly working again.

You drinking enough water?

Garrett Smith
04-16-2008, 07:07 AM
Find the weight your body is happy at and leave it alone. That's what I do!

John Alston
04-16-2008, 10:11 AM
dump all metcons.

I second this.

Garrett Smith
04-16-2008, 10:26 AM
Patrick,
Are you having a lot of carbs (from non-starchy veggies) at your meals?

Dave Van Skike
04-16-2008, 10:52 AM
If the goal is actually to get bigger, you might attack this from another angle aswell. Oly work as a protracted warmup plus some weighted pullups, bench and overhead pressing in a density format or at least sets of 5's might give you a bigger sink in which to put all those kcal. I can't imagine having to eat all that to gain weight.

Mike ODonnell
04-16-2008, 11:56 AM
IF is not the issue....but how many calories are you really trying to get in? Like said above...it doesn't take 5000 cal a day to build muscle. That and it's still going to be based on your training volume....so less is more in the case of gaining. Lift big complex movement, lift heavy and then eat. Who cares about your conditioning....you can't increase both maximumally at the same time.

Steven Low
04-16-2008, 02:17 PM
Yeah, like most have said.. prioritize your goals here: weight gain or metcons.

A heavy dose of 1-3 RM compounds will flood your system with anabolic hormones and also make you much more hungry.

And also, it is possible to do this with upper body exercises only... if you switch to two a days. I did it with rings and it was crazy. 8 workouts per week as I'm sure you remember (my knee was hurt so couldn't do legs really).

Basically, IMO get the frequency up and the heavy weights. When you hit the point of overreaching go another day or two lifting and then take a break. Supercompensation will be extremely good.

Patrick Donnelly
04-16-2008, 04:52 PM
You drinking enough water?
About four liters a day - it's all I drink.

Patrick,
Are you having a lot of carbs (from non-starchy veggies) at your meals?

I eat maybe 60-75g on the average day now, mostly from fruits, but with a fair amount of green veggies each day.

IF is not the issue....but how many calories are you really trying to get in?

Fruits/Veggies: ~250 Cal
Meat/Eggs/Fish: ~850 Cal
Nut Butters/Nuts: ~1750 Cal
Olive Oil: ~1450 Cal

So, ~4300 5x a week, ~2850 Cal on days without olive oil. So, nothing too outrageous.

Yeah, like most have said.. prioritize your goals here: weight gain or metcons.

A heavy dose of 1-3 RM compounds will flood your system with anabolic hormones and also make you much more hungry.

And also, it is possible to do this with upper body exercises only... if you switch to two a days. I did it with rings and it was crazy. 8 workouts per week as I'm sure you remember (my knee was hurt so couldn't do legs really).

Basically, IMO get the frequency up and the heavy weights. When you hit the point of overreaching go another day or two lifting and then take a break. Supercompensation will be extremely good.

I'll get back to you on AIM about this. Really, with my base strength/conditioning levels, I don't think I could go very far on a high-volume regimen without burning out.

Garrett Smith
04-17-2008, 08:33 AM
Some people really don't tolerate fruit/sugar with protein at meals well at all, this may be worth experimenting with.

Craig Loizides
04-17-2008, 10:18 AM
How do I convince my body to let me feed it?
Patrick

Taubes talks about this in Good Calories, Bad Calories. Basically hunger and satiety are controlled primarily by the percentage of carbohydrates in the diet. If carbohydrates are high, people feel hungry no matter how much they eat(even up to 8000 calories in some studies). When carbs are low they feel full even on low calories (as low as 1000). If you can't stand the thought of eating, you might try replacing some of the oil with a couple yams or some other paleo starch.

Patrick Donnelly
04-18-2008, 01:47 PM
Some people really don't tolerate fruit/sugar with protein at meals well at all, this may be worth experimenting with.

I've never had an issue with it, and I'm not eating excessive amounts of fruit with each meal, so I don't think that's the problem.

Garrett Smith
04-18-2008, 03:44 PM
Patrick,
It doesn't necessarily take excessive amounts. The only way you will know is to do a couple of meals, however big, without any starchy or sugary carbs. Your stomach will tell you whether it thinks it is the problem or not. It is your experiment to do...or not!

Feeling bloated after meals was exactly why I got off of the Zone--I did non-starchy veggies and completed my carb blocks with dried fruit (because I had little room left) and I felt like a mess. No carbs with a meal, no problem, no matter how much I eat. FWIW.

Patrick Donnelly
04-19-2008, 07:26 PM
Re: Garrett
So you just eat your carbs separate from the meal? I'll give it a shot.

Garrett Smith
04-19-2008, 10:03 PM
Patrick,
It's worth a try.

I generally eat meat and veg unless I'm at a cheat meal. If I was trying to gain mass through high Cal intake, I know a carb & protein bomb (especially often) would ruin my guts.

Went to a family dinner tonight--to avoid problems there I actually took 6 pills of two different enzyme supplements. No worries afterwards, even after two servings of lemon cake for dessert on top of quite a bit of brisket and chicken!

Dave Van Skike
04-22-2008, 02:02 PM
Patrick,

I had another idea for you...this one is a shocker so hold on to your hat......

If you want to gain musculkar BW without eating until you require a bucket, you might consider doing something that (eeek) bodybuilders routinely do.

Set your alarm for about 2AM or at least 6 hours form your last meal. get up, go quickly to the kitchen and eat a huyooge bowl of reheated oatmeal, with almonds and heavy cream. (paleo microwaving optional). Go back to bed. Your stomach won't be upset becuase you'll be in the throws of a significant food coma.

couple that with less metcon, many more squats and sensibly generous eating throughout the day...booyah. Your growing.

If this doesn't work I'll buy you your first cycle of dbol. kidding, drugs are bad mmmkay?

Patrick Donnelly
04-23-2008, 01:40 PM
Re: Dave
There's no way I'm getting out of bed. I enjoy eating, but I love sleeping.

Re: Garrett
It actually did make a difference. I was able to eat all of my protein yesterday without feeling like I was going to burst. Do you have any explanation behind it?

Dave Van Skike
04-23-2008, 04:04 PM
fine. remain tiny.

Allen Yeh
04-24-2008, 02:52 AM
He could just drop the IF completely....

Dave Van Skike
04-24-2008, 06:17 AM
ouch. good point.

must have glossed over that. for real, drop that IF stuff first.

John Alston
04-24-2008, 07:20 AM
ouch. good point.

must have glossed over that. for real, drop that IF stuff first.

Right? Anyone who complains about not gaining mass while

a) doing IF
b) doing metcons

should be taken out to the horse stall and forced to guzzle heavy cream until he/she pukes. Then whipped with stinky singlets that were left in the corner of the gym for months.
The best instinct displayed above is the love of sleep. That's a muscle gainer the way metcons ain't.

Dave Van Skike
04-24-2008, 07:47 AM
Right? Anyone who complains about not gaining mass while

a) doing IF
b) doing metcons

should be taken out to the horse stall and forced to guzzle heavy cream until he/she pukes. Then whipped with stinky singlets that were left in the corner of the gym for months.
The best instinct displayed above is the love of sleep. That's a muscle gainer the way metcons ain't.

Amen bruv.

whaddya doin? aiming to get banned with all the logic.

John Alston
04-24-2008, 08:32 AM
Amen bruv.

whaddya doin? aiming to get banned with all the logic.
They've only banned religion so far, so if I stick to it's opposite, I should be ok.

Patrick Donnelly
04-25-2008, 01:41 PM
They've only banned religion so far, so if I stick to it's opposite, I should be ok.

Don't be an ass.

Re: Dave, Allen, John
What's the matter with IF? I was gaining mass well before with it; the issues came about when I found myself unable to keep up the food intake I was doing in my 5-7 hour window. However, Garrett's recommendation has helped that improve. So, as long as I am still managing enough calories (~4300), what's the problem?

Also, I have dropped MetCon entirely since the beginning of this thread.

Garrett Smith
04-25-2008, 01:47 PM
Nice work, Patrick. Glad the suggestion helped.

Carb fermentation in the gut makes one feel like heck.

Dave Van Skike
04-25-2008, 04:06 PM
Don't be an ass.

Re: Dave, Allen, John
What's the matter with IF? I was gaining mass well before with it; the issues came about when I found myself unable to keep up the food intake I was doing in my 5-7 hour window. However, Garrett's recommendation has helped that improve. So, as long as I am still managing enough calories (~4300), what's the problem?

Also, I have dropped MetCon entirely since the beginning of this thread.

Are you getting any bigger? more muscular? if so, then I'd say there's nothing wrong with it.

If your not gaining and you aren't sure why IF might be kinda inhibitory of that process, I'll let someone more expert in IF explain it. But it has a little something to do with starting from the simple methods that have worked for ...I dunno..everyone, and then moving to the "cutting edge" paleo/"science"/new hotness.

not saying IF doesn't work for a lot of people, I've done it from tme to time and it works fine for weight loss, weening off of shitty foods, retraining your eating patterns.

mass gain? haven't seen that yet and it seems like a pain in the ass..or stomach in your case.

Mike ODonnell
04-25-2008, 05:40 PM
Don't be an ass.

Re: Dave, Allen, John
What's the matter with IF? I was gaining mass well before with it; the issues came about when I found myself unable to keep up the food intake I was doing in my 5-7 hour window. However, Garrett's recommendation has helped that improve. So, as long as I am still managing enough calories (~4300), what's the problem?

Also, I have dropped MetCon entirely since the beginning of this thread.

Now now everyone....let's all play nice or I will start abusing my power as moderator for the first time.....

Patrick, of course the 2 things to always say for mass gain: eat more, exercise less....at some point you will find that point at which you put on weight. I love IF...but if you need to expand the window to uptake the calories, then do what you need to do. You can throw in a fast day 1-2x a week if you find it more convienent. And yes, all metcons should go if mass gain is your goal...or you will need 5000-6000 calories...which is a ton of food. I wish I could drink whole milk....as I would drink a gallon a day for mass gain...but last time I had a quart I had breathing issues for several days and spit up flem for a week....good stuff.

Gaining weight program: Take a gallon of whole milk...add flaxseed oil.....dump in some whey and egg protein.....wholla....one massive weight gain shake to sip on the whole day along with whole food meals. (it will work....no guarantees you won't feel like crap doing it though...) Workout a couple times a week....sleep....eat....and anything over the speed of walking for cardio is not allowed.

Steven Low
04-25-2008, 05:48 PM
Regulation of metabolism (lowering it) with IF is definitely a valid way to gain mass although probably tough to get all those cals in during a short feeding window. As MOD said it might be a better thing to expand the feeding window a bit if you're having trouble choking down the cals.. although it seems you're fine for now. :)

Dave Van Skike
04-25-2008, 06:56 PM
Regulation of metabolism (lowering it) with IF is definitely a valid way to gain mass although probably tough to get all those cals in during a short feeding window. As MOD said it might be a better thing to expand the feeding window a bit if you're having trouble choking down the cals.. although it seems you're fine for now. :)

Got any references on that? Sounds plausible but then the whole downregulation of metabolism thing smells of bull puckey to me given that the research that gets cited is that whole metabolic ward type study where morbidly obese people are living off 800 kcal a day and doing zero activity.

under those circumstances i'd downregulate into a coma.

Steven Low
04-25-2008, 10:32 PM
Nope, but you can take my word for it if you want. :)

Considering the fact that lowered metabolism is obviously a side effect of IF (similar to caloric restriction; and there are studies at least on mice that show IF and CR have similar effects)... otherwise there's probably a few studies out there that show it somewhere (maybe on this forum.. haven't read all the threads in here).

Dave Van Skike
04-26-2008, 08:58 AM
Nope, but you can take my word for it if you want. :)

Considering the fact that lowered metabolism is obviously a side effect of IF (similar to caloric restriction; and there are studies at least on mice that show IF and CR have similar effects)... otherwise there's probably a few studies out there that show it somewhere (maybe on this forum.. haven't read all the threads in here).


It's not what I would call obvious. Plausible, maybe but the range of IF "practice" is pretty broad.

OTOH The type of IF being described here is nowhere near the type of every other day eating that has been studied alongside CR. What it sounds like most people are doing is something like the "warrior diet" or such...just a really structured eating window, that has several psychological benefits, some anecdotal inflammation benefits, and a really practical benefit of controlling intake because snacking is eliminated or severely curtailed.

I thought Robb was writing a book on this, you know with science and stuff.

Steven Low
04-26-2008, 09:48 AM
Hopefully.. would be interesting to read about.

Mike ODonnell
04-26-2008, 01:55 PM
Nope, but you can take my word for it if you want. :)

Considering the fact that lowered metabolism is obviously a side effect of IF (similar to caloric restriction; and there are studies at least on mice that show IF and CR have similar effects)... otherwise there's probably a few studies out there that show it somewhere (maybe on this forum.. haven't read all the threads in here).

Funny how some people like Lyle say that short term fasting BOOST the metabolism (and I have yet to find a study that backs it). Honestly I may have more sensitive to cold hands and feet, but I can still eat a ton and have energy when doing the IF window...so I have a hard time believing my metabolism actually is down. I think there is something to be said about the cleaning of the gut to improve protein utilization for more muscle...that and periods of short term fasting may increase cell sensitivity to amino acid intake through a protein down regulation. Or maybe it's more improvement in muscle insulin sensitivity that allow more amino acid uptake...or all of the above.

I think you will see plenty of people showing results for IF and mass gain, but they have eating windows of 8 hours and eat a good amount of calories. So it can work....a part of it may also be just a more enjoyable lifestyle factor that makes people more consistent on how they eat as well. (and not feel like a piece of crap all day long...which is how I felt back in the old days of EAS Mass gain shakes and eating all day long)

If IF works for someone....then it works. If IF is not working for someone...then they need to change it up and either modify one of the many variable with an IF plan or get off it completely and just eat all day long until they can fine tune their eating and results. IF doesn't have to be for everyone.

Steven Low
04-26-2008, 07:35 PM
I think (well, I don't actually know) that IF or any other type of caloric restriction does increase sensitivity to everything. Like sensitivity in the digestive tract to utilize consistently more macronutrients from the same amount of food ingested... bringing them into cells, metabolizing them. It's kind of like protein consumption where your body utilizes it better if you eat less and less efficiently if you eat more. Depends how you're defining stuff I guess -- overall metabolism as in caloric need to maintain muscle mass is lower but your metabolism is definitely improved in that sense that it can process everything better.

The body tends to work along a logarithmic curve I've found for almost everything whether it be training, nutrition or whatever. Personal observation. :)