PDA

View Full Version : trying to find article on Pmenu PWO+fats/fruit thoughts


Stanley Daniel
04-26-2008, 01:54 PM
Hey, 2 questions and looking for supporting journal articles if possible :)

** What's the take now on mixing fats (i.e. avocados) with lower GI carbs (oats) and a faster absorbing protein (i.e. whey isolate) ?

It seems many do this here and on the crossfit forums... it definitely puts me in curiosity mode because I know the biochemical actions of insulin and theoretically what happens from school...

In the past I've stuck with higher GI carbs (i.e. dextrose or waxy maize starch) with whey (in a 2:1 ratio carbs : protein) just based on the theory of the glucose transporter uptake in muscle/adipose tissue (GLUT4 transporters) after physical training...

I've been doing the zone 16 block plan and have been measuring/weighing my amounts based on nutritional data website or the food label itself... I've got the other concepts down for the most part - it's been ~1.5 weeks now...

** My other question was concerning fruit in general (as an added carb source in any other meal or in PWO)

It seems that many here might stick to 1-2 fruit servings (i.e. apples/berries/kiwis...) if at all, and substitute more low-intermediate dense carb veggies instead...

If you could post some thoughts on these two questions that would be cool, plus I'd like to know what issues of performance menu I should get to read up on the theory behind it... thanks...

Mike ODonnell
04-26-2008, 02:04 PM
** What's the take now on mixing fats (i.e. avocados) with lower GI carbs (oats) and a faster absorbing protein (i.e. whey isolate) ?

What kind of results are you looking for? Fat loss? Muscle gain? Recovery? Sounds almost like a "zone" like portion? At that point why the Whey?

I'd say stick with a pwo if you are needing quicker recovery for high training volume levels....otherwise, whole foods all day long build muscle too....as a muscle builds 24/7 for many days after a workout...not just in the 1-3 hour time window.

Stanley Daniel
04-26-2008, 02:42 PM
Mike, thanks for the fast reply - basically I am doing the xfit WOD's and primary goal of fat loss surrounded by the zone diet, slightly modified in regards that I'm counting my macro totals...

So to answer your follow-up question, this would primarily be for fat loss at the present moment... I don't have a particular time as to when I train... it could be morning or night - so, I have been treating this "pwo" as a zone meal pretty much... sometimes I eat a proportioned "4 block" solid food-based meal instead....

The whey was just an option that I've used, but I've dramatically cut down on the consumption of powder and swapped to more whole foods - need to work on dropping the fruit content though... it [fruit] just had easy carb portability!

I was just curious to know about P+F+C combos and fat loss after training and the situations with the conflicting fruit threads I read on here and the crossfit boards...

For example, I had a 4 block "zone" meal after doing today's WOD
5 rounds 400m + 95lb power clean snatchx15 for 5 rounds

protein :
38grams 100%ON whey cookies.cream : 28grams protein

carbs :
20 grams frozen no sugar added blueberries
55 grams regular quaker oats
= ~36grams carbs (i subtracted the dietary fiber)

fat :
52 grams avocado
= ~7grams fat

Not increasing the fat blocks yet, trying to get a total ~12grams on a 4blocker...

I'm still searching around for more info based on whether I should have put in the carbs from the avocado or the fat from the oats - or soley just look at the face value macro on what type of food it is... b/c that avocado above had about 4grams of carbs along with the 7 grams of fat...

Ari Kestler
04-27-2008, 09:45 AM
If your goal is fat loss avoid the shakes...really any liquefied food...

Allen Yeh
04-27-2008, 10:35 AM
I don't believe you have to avoid PWO shakes or all liquified food for fat loss.

There are many different ideos on PWO and what you shouldn't or shouldn't not do. It gets to be very very confusing, my best advice is to stick with one regimen for at least a month - 2 months before making a decision on any one method.

I personally go with powdered gatorade and whey PWO depending on how long my workout was and what the rep range went into.

Garrett Smith
04-27-2008, 12:29 PM
Stanley, I don't understand what you are asking with the second "question"...

Stanley Daniel
04-27-2008, 12:56 PM
If your goal is fat loss avoid the shakes...really any liquefied food...

Right, I'd have to agree with you on this! Solids meals for the most part that is, brings much more of a thermogenic effect... metabolic rate increase...

my best advice is to stick with one regimen for at least a month - 2 months before making a decision on any one method.

I personally go with powdered gatorade and whey PWO depending on how long my workout was and what the rep range went into.

I'll agree that nothing happens overnight! :) Results usually take a few weeks to appear if that is the goal... Again, I was just doing some "prep" work prior to getting into it in depth!


Stanley, I don't understand what you are asking with the second "question"...

Ah yeah, this one is a bit tricky to word to ask :) Basically what I wanted to know was the if others counted the other minor macro when focusing on the main macro of interest... i.e. avocados : we're looking at the fat content mainly, but they have around 4grams of carbs for every serving of 52grams of avacodo. A 52gram serving has ~7 grams of fat which I am concerned to factor in.

If I had some lean meat which had ~1.5 grams of fat per "block of protein" that would total my fat goal of 4x1.5(3) to around 12grams total... that is if I am correct that for a 4 block meal, we should roughly get about 12grams of fat either from protein or other sources of fat? for normal situations, not the x2 or x3 fat....

Sorry about the wording of this - it's a bit confusing I know...


Thanks guys for the replies :)

Mike ODonnell
04-27-2008, 01:40 PM
I was just curious to know about P+F+C combos and fat loss after training and the situations with the conflicting fruit threads I read on here and the crossfit boards...

You lost me once you went all zone language and formulas...as that is all too OCD and confusing for even the unfrozen caveman lawyer...

Remember fat burning is an all day calorie and hormonal event...as broken down in this simplistic pov post here (http://projectfit.org/iflifeblog/2008/02/25/fat-loss-101-master-the-basics/)

If you zone and it works...more power to you...otherwise....this works too:
Meat + Veggies + Fat (meals)
Meat + Carbs (pwo)
Eat whole foods only
Add in Fruit (classified as a carb) only either in AM or PWO (but keep as minimal as possible if weight loss is a goal....if you need it to keep from going into a hypoglycemic coma after a workout...then have some. As far as pwo windows and building muscle is concerned...don't worry about it, you will build plenty all day long)

The only right way is the one that gets results....and there is probably 10 different ways to do that....

Garrett Smith
04-27-2008, 04:17 PM
Stanley,
When I did the Zone, if something gave enough macros to contribute a half a block or more (of the minority ones), then I counted it.

I didn't like the goal of measuring and calculating macros only to ignore 2 of 3 macros in a food. If one was drinking milk, for example, which has significant contributions from all three macros, why ignore that? Also, when eating a mixed/prepared food (ie. a stew) that one didn't make from scratch, all the macros would need to be counted, as they are all there.

I got very lean (tape measure and digital calipers both said ~6%) doing the OCD (mostly) Paleo/Zone. All macros were included in totals, unless they did not round off to at least a half block. I was even having dark chocolate and wine with most dinners, counting all the calories in wine (alcohol and carbs) as carbs, and counting the carbs and protein in my almonds.

Basically, it worked. I did no PWO supplementation and lost no appreciable lean mass. I did have the "fat crash", where my energy and performance went to heck (due to inadequate calories), when I had to start upping my fat blocks to the Athlete's Zone (I think I jumped to 3X at that point, 5X later).

Derek Weaver
04-28-2008, 12:28 AM
If your goal is fat loss avoid the shakes...really any liquefied food...

Not sure the problem here with the liquefied foods?

My whole-Paleo-food loving self doesn't do shakes anymore, but the V-Diet has shown promising (read:astounding) results for many, and that's only one solid meal per week for 28 days.

Yet I digress... just curious as to the problem with shakes/liquefied foods (other than taste)

Mike ODonnell
04-28-2008, 08:53 AM
Not sure the problem here with the liquefied foods?

My whole-Paleo-food loving self doesn't do shakes anymore, but the V-Diet has shown promising (read:astounding) results for many, and that's only one solid meal per week for 28 days.

Yet I digress... just curious as to the problem with shakes/liquefied foods (other than taste)

The V-diet is a low calorie diet...so at the end of the day, calories in/calorie out is still an important factor in weight loss. Whether the V-diet translate to real long term weight loss is another question...because it is not teaching one what real foods to eat. So like any diet...the inherent danger of rebounding back into old habits or bad food choices is a strong possibility. Anyways....whole food choices are always a better choice for a long term weight loss plan, not to mention a wide variety of minerals, nutrients, vitamins etc that supplements are not a great source for. Also real food (esp protein) take a long time to digest where something like Whey powder is just in and out of your system too quickly...and you want a nice stream of aminos if your goal is muscle retention during a low calorie phase. If you add in a whey+flaxseed drink a couple times a day along with real foods....I am sure it can work...as many things can. Could do drinks most of the day and eat a big meal at night (like a Warrior Diet/IF/V-Diet combination). Lots of possible combinations can work of course. Focusing on whole foods are just a better way for long term success in my opinion. (and taste good too!)

Ari Kestler
04-28-2008, 09:52 AM
Not sure the problem here with the liquefied foods?

My whole-Paleo-food loving self doesn't do shakes anymore, but the V-Diet has shown promising (read:astounding) results for many, and that's only one solid meal per week for 28 days.

Yet I digress... just curious as to the problem with shakes/liquefied foods (other than taste)

My understanding was if fat loss is a goal, you live and die by your insulin response, liquids are more easily digested (read: quicker) leading to a more profound insulin spike and fat storage....whole foods spend more time in your stomach and intestines, being slowly processed and broken down, leading to more stable insulin levels...

Mike ODonnell
04-28-2008, 11:13 AM
My understanding was if fat loss is a goal, you live and die by your insulin response, liquids are more easily digested (read: quicker) leading to a more profound insulin spike and fat storage....whole foods spend more time in your stomach and intestines, being slowly processed and broken down, leading to more stable insulin levels...

Yes and No...if your liquids are not loaded with sugar the accompanying insulin response is minimal. So types of liquids are important. Protein + Fat is good....loads of sugar is not. Building up insulin resistance through high sugar intake is a wonderful way to increase risks of all diseases (diabetes, cancers, heart diseases) and just increase the chances of even more fat gain once off the liquid diet. Hence the yo-yo effect 95% of chronic dieters go through. Fast and quick can be successful...if and only if a person knows how to adapt to a realistic lifestyle model after that...as slow and steady in the end always wins the long term race.

Stanley Daniel
04-28-2008, 04:38 PM
You lost me once you went all zone language and formulas...as that is all too OCD and confusing for even the unfrozen caveman lawyer...

Remember fat burning is an all day calorie and hormonal event...as broken down in this simplistic pov post here (http://projectfit.org/iflifeblog/2008/02/25/fat-loss-101-master-the-basics/)

If you zone and it works...more power to you...otherwise....this works too:
Meat + Veggies + Fat (meals)
Meat + Carbs (pwo)
Eat whole foods only
Add in Fruit (classified as a carb) only either in AM or PWO (but keep as minimal as possible if weight loss is a goal....if you need it to keep from going into a hypoglycemic coma after a workout...then have some. As far as pwo windows and building muscle is concerned...don't worry about it, you will build plenty all day long)

The only right way is the one that gets results....and there is probably 10 different ways to do that....

Mike, thanks again for your input! I hopped onto your blog to see that this is what you've been emphasizing with some good points!


I didn't like the goal of measuring and calculating macros only to ignore 2 of 3 macros in a food. If one was drinking milk, for example, which has significant contributions from all three macros, why ignore that? Also, when eating a mixed/prepared food (ie. a stew) that one didn't make from scratch, all the macros would need to be counted, as they are all there.


Right on Garrett! Haha, yes this has to be the most annoying part - It definitely can put one into OCD mode - I wouldn't want to drive towards that direction, but I would like to know how much is going in rather than "guessing..."

What I did notice is that I was having a difficult time (more based on time consumption and nailing that "anticipated gram amount") when trying to add up foods that had as you put, "significant" macronutrient contributions... Any better suggestions or reference links? I wrote back (today) on a previous post of looking at the Zone > Paleo transition... I've got most of the foods down... just tailoring it is what's needed... and as mentioned, it has to be enforced with discipline for a few weeks to see how it affects our individual body compositions....


Thanks again to everyone else who had responded to this thread... I'm glad I've been exposed to some interesting and realistic, yet manageable concepts! :)


Oh and one last question, ...what's the opinion of using "fat burners (yohimbine hcl) or carb shuttlers (i.e.r-alpha lipoic acid shunts glucose to muscles rather than adipose) or products with sesamin? It seems food is the best fat burner....

Garrett Smith
04-28-2008, 06:24 PM
Stanley,
When I did the Paleo/Zone, I did it on three meals a day. Less math that way. I'd have to guess that IFing the Zone would make the math that much easier. I couldn't imagine calculating for 5-6 feedings a day. Unless I really had to, I can't imagine ever doing the Zone again...but it was worth doing once for the lessons I learned.

The right amount of calories and carbs (less is usually more) is the best fat burner. Only protein and fats are essential. Yohimbine makes me irritable. I take R-ALA more for its longevity (insulin-sensitizing) effects than the fat-burning capability (if there is one). Never messed with sesamin.

Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants. I love that mantra.