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Tirzah Harper
05-01-2008, 11:46 AM
Iíd like to cut fat. Aesthetic reasons only, as my performance is increasing measurably and Iím feeling fine. What, you didnít think I was vain? Heck, Iím femaleÖwith the traditional female fat-deposit patterns, too.
I made it through a week and a half on the V-diet several weeks ago before I completely felt NOT WELL and called it off. Health first, vanity second, right? So I pretty promptly filled right back in what I had lost.
Since then, Iíve been emphasizing whole and unprocessed foods a la Michael Pollan; taking it easy on sugar and flour; but basically just eating without counting or anything. If it werenít for vanity, Iíd be fine! I feel great! I also started eating breakfast first thing again vs. waiting until nearly noon.
IFíing seems to affect me the same way it does George Mounce, in terms of slowing down my metabolism (5í4Ē, f, 112 lbs give or take a couple; Iíd like to lose at least five lbs. of bodyfat but not more than eight, probably. Iím not a mesomorph!).

I have a few limiting factors that I recognize:
One, Iím a foodie and I like to eat with my friends & family. So strict diet 100% of the time is doomed to failure. Strict diet 75% of the time would be tough but doable.
Two, I donít have the patience for Zoning when cooking for more than just me.
Three, I Ė did I mention lack of patience? Ė tend to lose hope quickly and give up on an eating pattern, probably before I really give it time (more than a couple of weeks) to notice results.
Four, I donít tend to notice results very well, as Iím not very food-sensitive or one of those people who can tell an extra half-pound anywhere on their body. I tend to go along obliviously and then do a double-take one day when I look in the mirror. I also can get away with eating a lot of junk without feeling bad, except for missing fresh & raw foods. This isnít a good thing.
Iím also mostly vegetarian, which actually doesnít seem to have any effect on my performance that Iíve noticed: I made gains while eating meat, and Iím making gains not eating meat.

Based on the above, any advice?
I plan to continue with whole + unprocessed + keeping sugars and flours intake low. Iím also planning to add in homemade kefir to my diet! Yum!
Iím thinking about eating in Zone proportions until dinner (breakfast, lunch, snack, with a little extra fat to stave off hunger) and then just going with whole + unprocessed then. Iím not sure if this is enough to make a difference (thatís six blocks plus dinner; Iíd be a ten-blocker doing strict Zone) or how long I should give it before re-evaluating how well it works.

I'm doing CF workouts approximately 4 times per week and adding in walking and running as I can (2-5 times per week, a couple miles maybe) to help with my very sedentary jobs.

Thanks in advance!

Mike ODonnell
05-01-2008, 12:17 PM
Keep it simple...

- Eat the right foods for the right hormonal responses for fat burning (http://projectfit.org/iflifeblog/2008/02/25/fat-loss-101-master-the-basics/)
- Eat less calories to have a deficit daily
- Drink only water with lemon (no diet drinks)
- Don't overtrain...more is not better
- Keep a slower aerobic based active lifestyle (walking, hiking, etc...what does not promote excessive cortisol and muscle breakdown and can be done on a lower cal diet...jogging is not it)
- Lower carb/Mod protein and fat eating works best....for a reason
- Keep workouts short and intense 2-3x a week
- Enjoy your meals and if you need a "cheat" meal once a week...then do it...but once you eat for health and not emotional needs and wants...you may not need this...it's more a mental thing so you don't feel deprived...but it doesn't hit the key reason of food should be viewed for health first
- Eat for your hunger...if it's all the right foods you won't gain weight...if it's the wrong foods you WILL
- Eat healthy for fat loss before you even start attempt something like IF...as IFOC (IF on crap) will not work
- Remember slow and steady wins the race and looks the best! Quick solutions do nothing for lifestyle habbits (the danger of ANY diet)...and usually lead to a high % of people just gaining it all back

Garrett Smith
05-01-2008, 12:32 PM
I have a hunch that deficient thyroid function is at the root of those who do not respond favorably to IF, especially with the slowed metabolism that has physically obvious signs. First place I would start is with an urine iodine test. Feel free to PM me if you'd like me to facilitate this.

Mike ODonnell
05-01-2008, 01:39 PM
5’4”, f, 112 lbs give or take a couple; I’d like to lose at least five lbs. of bodyfat but not more than eight, probably. I’m not a mesomorph!

Just saw this....to get lower BF is harder and harder once you get to a certain point. If you look at who does it best....figure models and bodybuilders...they do lower carb cycles and good amounts of slow-go cardio. Just saying....no way you are going to get low with a good amount of sugar and junk in the diet and not having a high amount of daily activity...just won't happen plain and simple (like I would love to fly but flapping my arms is not going to make it happen no matter how much I want it to)...you are now fighting deeper hormonal structures for losing that last bit of fat. If you go find and read the "Body Opus" (the cornerstone for all things fat loss from the days back) book from ebay or something...that is pretty much going to tell you the same thing. (as that was almost zero carb during the week and then carb up weekends with 2 glycogen draining workouts Mon/Tue....slow go cardio Wed/Thurs and a killer glycogen drainer on Fri with carb up). It works....and it is painful!

Tirzah Harper
05-01-2008, 01:41 PM
Keep it simple...

- Eat the right foods for the right hormonal responses for fat burning (http://projectfit.org/iflifeblog/2008/02/25/fat-loss-101-master-the-basics/)
OK, going to read the article.
- Eat less calories to have a deficit daily
yeah...dammit
- Drink only water with lemon (no diet drinks)
No diet drinks. Ever. Coffee a few times a week, tea a few times daily - working to wean off the honey & milk.
- Don't overtrain...more is not better
- Keep a slower aerobic based active lifestyle (walking, hiking, etc...what does not promote excessive cortisol and muscle breakdown and can be done on a lower cal diet...jogging is not it)
- Lower carb/Mod protein and fat eating works best....for a reason
- Keep workouts short and intense 2-3x a week
OK MODÖnow Iím going to be skeptical.
The leanest person I know works in a hard physical job five days a week and eats a fairly high-carb, low-protein diet. He feels good, looks good, and holds up well.
I honestly donít think that Ė unless I spent most evenings walking, all evening Ė I would get good results from short, high-intensity workouts ONLY 2-3 times per week. Iíve been doing that all winter (well, up to 4-5 times per week on occasion) and I put on weightÖbut then, I also wasnít doing much walking/hiking.
- Enjoy your meals and if you need a "cheat" meal once a week...then do it...but once you eat for health and not emotional needs and wants...you may not need this...it's more a mental thing so you don't feel deprived...but it doesn't hit the key reason of food should be viewed for health first
- Eat for your hunger...if it's all the right foods you won't gain weight...if it's the wrong foods you WILL
- Eat healthy for fat loss before you even start attempt something like IF...as IFOC (IF on crap) will not work
these three things sound like I've been working towards, except I'm eating crap considerably more often than once a week, but less often than ever before.
- Remember slow and steady wins the race and looks the best! Quick solutions do nothing for lifestyle habbits (the danger of ANY diet)...and usually lead to a high % of people just gaining it all back

Tirzah Harper
05-01-2008, 01:45 PM
Just saw this....to get lower BF is harder and harder once you get to a certain point. If you look at who does it best....figure models and bodybuilders...they do lower carb cycles and good amounts of slow-go cardio. Just saying....no way you are going to get low with a good amount of sugar and junk in the diet and not having a high amount of daily activity...just won't happen plain and simple (like I would love to fly but flapping my arms is not going to make it happen no matter how much I want it to)...you are now fighting deeper hormonal structures for losing that last bit of fat....which is usually in the "hard to get places" dictated by more stubborn hormones other than insulin. Go find the "Body Opus" book on ebay or something...that is pretty much going to tell you the same thing.

:mad:
Not what I wanted to hear.;)
you're right, though, the last time I was lower than this was when I was kickboxing to the tune of 2-3 hours of pretty high-intensity workouts per week.

Mike ODonnell
05-01-2008, 01:50 PM
The leanest person I know works in a hard physical job five days a week and eats a fairly high-carb, low-protein diet. He feels good, looks good, and holds up well.

Bingo....you don't have that activity level to burn off constant influx of carbs...so really no comparison. You have to tailor your intake to YOUR lifestyle...so eat less carbs or up the activity....and notice his is a slower steady pace all day....as no one can sustain and recover from constant high intensity activity for long periods of time every day....brief periods of exertion maybe...but not consistent.

Side note: Skinny people can get diabetes, heart disease, inflammation issues, cancer and many other illnesses (I have seen it first hand with some people I have worked with). So just being "skinny" doesn't mean that a person's diet is not leading down a road of illness and diseases....the #1 enemy being sugar (from processed unnatural sources). Sugar = high insulin levels = increasing insulin resistance = increasing chronic inflammation = increasing risks of heart diseases = cell health compromise = cancer growth/spread = ....well you get the picture.

Mike ODonnell
05-01-2008, 01:52 PM
:mad:
Not what I wanted to hear.;)

The truth never is.... ;)

and if it was that easy....I would of been out of business long ago.

Tirzah Harper
05-01-2008, 03:09 PM
So essentially, get the ingredients right before I start tweaking the quantities, as far as nutrition goes?
And...keep moving.

Mike ODonnell
05-01-2008, 03:22 PM
So essentially, get the ingredients right before I start tweaking the quantities, as far as nutrition goes?
And...keep moving.

When in doubt...less carbs or more activity...should work most of the time. That and like in the hormonal post I linked to above, learn to burn fat all day with the right hormonal signals of a good GH response from exercise/sleep and keeping your glucagon levels up (and not shut down by insulin spikes).

Jane Michel
05-01-2008, 05:51 PM
Tirzah is at 8%?!
Off-track a bit but Tirzah! You have to tell me some of your secrets now because I'm 5'4, 119lb and have been stuck at 19% for 1.5 months.

sarena kopciel
05-01-2008, 08:13 PM
I have a hunch that deficient thyroid function is at the root of those who do not respond favorably to IF, especially with the slowed metabolism that has physically obvious signs. First place I would start is with an urine iodine test. Feel free to PM me if you'd like me to facilitate this.


Maybe why I failed with longer IFing at a certain point??

Mike ODonnell
05-01-2008, 10:24 PM
Maybe why I failed with longer IFing at a certain point??

Never know...everyone is different..and longer is not better in many cases. May be other hormones at work.

Could also be a liver issue...as that is basically tied to many things including fat burning....drink your water with lemon...take some milk thistle. A happy liver makes a happy body....in general. (as it also helps to convert T4 to T3...otherwise known as the thyroid based metabolism)

Tirzah Harper
05-02-2008, 04:02 AM
Tirzah is at 8%?!
Off-track a bit but Tirzah! You have to tell me some of your secrets now because I'm 5'4, 119lb and have been stuck at 19% for 1.5 months.

8%?!?! Not hardly! I'd feel horrible at 8%, guaranteed! LOL. I'm probably somewhere in the low 20s, percentage-wise. I think when I punched my measurements into the various calculators, it was anything from 21% to 24% depending on whose version I used. In other words, arms look fine, ass doesn't.:p

Jane Michel
05-03-2008, 04:46 PM
8%?!?! Not hardly! I'd feel horrible at 8%, guaranteed! LOL. I'm probably somewhere in the low 20s, percentage-wise. I think when I punched my measurements into the various calculators, it was anything from 21% to 24% depending on whose version I used. In other words, arms look fine, ass doesn't.:p

lol! Out of curiosity, what is your diet like and what are your lifts like? Do you do just the CF main page WOD? Females are rare enough let alone one the same height and about the same weight and BF.

- Eat the right foods for the right hormonal responses for fat burning
- Eat less calories to have a deficit daily
- Drink only water with lemon (no diet drinks)
- Don't overtrain...more is not better
- Keep a slower aerobic based active lifestyle (walking, hiking, etc...what does not promote excessive cortisol and muscle breakdown and can be done on a lower cal diet...jogging is not it)
- Lower carb/Mod protein and fat eating works best....for a reason
- Keep workouts short and intense 2-3x a week
- Enjoy your meals and if you need a "cheat" meal once a week...then do it...but once you eat for health and not emotional needs and wants...you may not need this...it's more a mental thing so you don't feel deprived...but it doesn't hit the key reason of food should be viewed for health first
- Eat for your hunger...if it's all the right foods you won't gain weight...if it's the wrong foods you WILL
- Eat healthy for fat loss before you even start attempt something like IF...as IFOC (IF on crap) will not work
- Remember slow and steady wins the race and looks the best! Quick solutions do nothing for lifestyle habbits (the danger of ANY diet)...and usually lead to a high % of people just gaining it all back

Mike, when people start plateauing with Paleo/IF, does anything about IF need to be changed? A couple of weeks ago I asked about feeling too cold on IF and after a few overfeeds and all-day eating I think I'm out of hyperthyroidism. I've gained strength training with the rings but my body doesn't seem to want to drop any more bodyfat.

Mike ODonnell
05-03-2008, 09:23 PM
Mike, when people start plateauing with Paleo/IF, does anything about IF need to be changed? A couple of weeks ago I asked about feeling too cold on IF and after a few overfeeds and all-day eating I think I'm out of hyperthyroidism. I've gained strength training with the rings but my body doesn't seem to want to drop any more bodyfat.

I think anything will plateau if no protocols are changed along the way. What kind of IF schedule do you keep? Personally I like the M-F more stricter version...and weekends eat all day...or however you want. Get more calories in on the weekend. Also make sure you are getting enough in during your feeding window....as IF is not about going too low on calories. I believe you meant "hypo"thyroidism (low)...although that seems more like too low calories, as you will get the same effect eating low calories all day long. There's lots of factors involved including liver health (as that makes the enzyme that helps convert T4 to T3) and adrenals too. I found my hands and feet got colder when I drank more coffee on IF....so it seemed to be more related to adrenal activity (overworked adrenal function?) and not the thyroid directly...just my personal observation.

Like many say....make it work for you and I would not keep it to any strict schedule day after day....kinds of defeats the whole "intermittent" part.

Jane Michel
05-04-2008, 07:10 AM
What kind of IF schedule do you keep? ... I believe you meant "hypo"thyroidism (low)...although that seems more like too low calories, as you will get the same effect eating low calories all day long. ...
Like many say....make it work for you and I would not keep it to any strict schedule day after day....kinds of defeats the whole "intermittent" part.

My IF schedule is:
Mon, Weds, Thurs - feeding 6pm-10pm
Tues, Fri, Sat, Sun - anything depending on hunger, whether I feel like I need PWO

Yeah I meant hypothyroidism oops.

I was wondering whether there were some specific tweaks that could be done because IF is so intermittent I can't really tell what is working and what isn't...?

Mike ODonnell
05-04-2008, 07:30 AM
My IF schedule is:
Mon, Weds, Thurs - feeding 6pm-10pm
Tues, Fri, Sat, Sun - anything depending on hunger, whether I feel like I need PWO

Yeah I meant hypothyroidism oops.

I was wondering whether there were some specific tweaks that could be done because IF is so intermittent I can't really tell what is working and what isn't...?

How many meals are you really eating on the T/F/S/S "off" IF days?

Most basic tweaks are going to be:
- Size of feeding window
- Number of meals during the feeding window
- calories during a feeding window
- number of fast days
those are the important factors

Most people who are active and find good results with IF have larger eating windows (like around 8 hours...yours is only 4), probably get 3 good meals inside that 8 hour window, and are not short on calories. If you want the more alternate day type of IF...I don't think Eades original 24 on/24 off model is a good one to follow....but every 3rd day may be more realistic for IF benefits while not letting your thyroid to become compromised.

Works on those variables as you see fit....as something can always be changed up....and if you need to stop IF to start seeing results, then maybe that is what needs to be done to reset your metabolism...and then you can re-introduce IF slowly again if you want to.

Tirzah Harper
05-04-2008, 09:22 AM
lol! Out of curiosity, what is your diet like and what are your lifts like? Do you do just the CF main page WOD? Females are rare enough let alone one the same height and about the same weight and BF.


My diet...eh, it's nothing prescribed exactly, which I'm sure would make me thinner but probably not happier. Last night it was Guinness, spiked coffee, a grilled cheese sandwich, spinach salad, and a few nuts & a donut by the end of the night...that's not really the norm though.

Generally it's fruit, often hot cereal (amaranth, quinoa, millet) with an apple and a couple of eggs cooked in there for breakfast. Daily doses of Earl Grey tea with honey and cream of some sort...getting away from non-dairy creamer (husband can't do much dairy) and trying coconut milk, almond milk, etc.
Lunch is either leftovers from dinner and/or a big ol' salad of mixed greens/broccoli slaw mix with cottage cheese, strawberries, beans, tuna, eggs (whatever's handy when I'm packing lunch, basically) and a little dressing and/or olive oil over top. An ounce or two of dark chocolate mid-afternoon.
Dinner is pretty varied, almost always vegetable-based and frequently accompanied with something from a smaller brewery, in moderation. Sometimes we'll have fish, sometimes a little chicken, rarely red meat; almost never pasta or potatoes or flour-based foods. Then often a small dessert of chocolate or berries & sweetened Greek yogurt and coconut milk or cookies.

So it's not your standard American diet by a long shot, but it's not dialed in for super-fitness either; more for general well-being, health, and pleasure. LOL.

My lifts aren't impressive at all LOL! I don't follow the main-page WOD, I go to my local affiliate and do whatever he says 3-5 times per week, which follows the CF format but not the main site WODs. Plus I try to walk on my lunch breaks (2-mile loop in 1/2 hour) and run a mile or so occasionally (yuck) because I want to get better at that; gardening and just live as actively as one can when working desk jobs and being pretty damn busy.
Anyway, we did the CFT on Friday and mine was 345.:rolleyes: It's improved since getting 310 in my first CFT four months ago, and I'm proud of my own improvements, but it's kind of...humbling...when the guys there are PRESSING more than I can DEADLIFT!:eek: Oh well. I'm improving and that's where it matters, eh? My times are getting better. And I've only been doing this semi-steady since October.

How about you? Now I'm curious too.:D

Allen Yeh
05-05-2008, 03:46 AM
Tirzah is at 8%?!
Off-track a bit but Tirzah! You have to tell me some of your secrets now because I'm 5'4, 119lb and have been stuck at 19% for 1.5 months.

8% for a female would be a very unhealthy state to be in for any prolonged amount of time.

Typically female bodybuilders for competitions are between 6-10% I think and the fitness competitors are 8-12% and the figure competitors shoot for 9%-15%.

Mike ODonnell
05-05-2008, 07:17 AM
8% for a female would be a very unhealthy state to be in for any prolonged amount of time.

Typically female bodybuilders for competitions are between 6-10% I think and the fitness competitors are 8-12% and the figure competitors shoot for 9%-15%.

For the record....she is 20%+....that was my bad....as I thought it said 8% bf somewhere and it really said she wanted to lose 8 lbs of bodyfat....Oopps....I corrected mistake but looks like it still lives on.....My bad.

Darryl Shaw
05-06-2008, 05:58 AM
8% for a female would be a very unhealthy state to be in for any prolonged amount of time.

Typically female bodybuilders for competitions are between 6-10% I think and the fitness competitors are 8-12% and the figure competitors shoot for 9%-15%.

It's a bad idea for women to aim for less than ~15% BF as they put themselves at risk of the female athlete triad of low energy, amenorrhea and osteoporosis. Most healthy female athletes compete at around 15 - 20% BF.

http://www.femaleathletetriad.org/faq.html

Tirzah Harper
05-06-2008, 05:52 PM
- Keep a slower aerobic based active lifestyle (walking, hiking, etc...what does not promote excessive cortisol and muscle breakdown and can be done on a lower cal diet...jogging is not it)
- Lower carb/Mod protein and fat eating works best....for a reason
- Keep workouts short and intense 2-3x a week

You might have already explained this, but I missed it if you did.
Why does the "more is better" NOT apply here? If walking frequently is good, why wouldn't running be? If metcon workouts 2-3x/week are good, why not 4-5x provided that I'm feeling fine? :confused:

Tom Rawls
05-06-2008, 06:03 PM
Tizrah--

Have a look at the recent articles on Lyle McDonald's blog.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/blog/

His argument runs counter to what you usually see advocated here and on related sites.

Jane Michel
05-06-2008, 07:40 PM
How about you? Now I'm curious too.:D

:D
Diet...
- meat is usually chicken, lean beef, lean pork, eggs or fish
- veg is usually kale, bok choy, cai sim, onions, carrots, celery, salad leaves, spring onions, broccoli, cauliflower, cabbage - and a giganto bowl of it
- fat usually comes from olive oil, canola oil, sesame oil, fish oil

I try to be as Paleo-ish as possible... the non-Paleo bits are the Chinese cooking ingredients: oyster sauce, soya sauce. I've been trying to cut down on fruit lately and have it perhaps 4x a month. One or two days in a row a month I eat whatever junk I want.

Couple that with IF.

My lifts aren't impressive either hehe. Lost a lot of strength recently and am working on building it back up while staying slim to be able to do bodyweight stuff. I don't follow the main page WOD either and do ring strength work 5 days a week, maybe a metcon like Helen once a week, and HIIT running or rowing 1-2x a week. Estimated 5RM squat is 35kg, DL 50kg, press 25kg. Can do a max of 3 ring pullups and 3 ring dips. Not yet any HSPUs but working on it!

Steven Low
05-06-2008, 09:04 PM
Tizrah--

Have a look at the recent articles on Lyle McDonald's blog.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/blog/

His argument runs counter to what you usually see advocated here and on related sites.
Well, not really. He obviously uses them and has stated as such. The main point(s) he was trying to make is that they are not the be all end all type of exercise.

However, I do think that is wrong. So take it for what it's worth. You get more bang for your buck with metcon/HIIT/tabata/etc. than 'aerobic' cardio/LSD per time put in *WITH* a regulated diet and sleep schedule.

Allen Yeh
05-07-2008, 03:50 AM
Getting bang for your buck is great. At the same time from personal experience while in a caloric deficit and hitting the weights hard I have 0 energy left for any metcon/HIIT/tabata type protocols after the session.

Looking at my past the leanest I had ever gotten being a naturally more endomorphic bodytype was doing fasted cardio first thing in the morning. Am I saying this is what everyone should do? Heck no. Would I have been leaner if I had been doing metcon/HIIT/tabata type protocols in place of my cardio? I don't know.

/hijack

Mike ODonnell
05-07-2008, 08:11 AM
You might have already explained this, but I missed it if you did.
Why does the "more is better" NOT apply here? If walking frequently is good, why wouldn't running be? If metcon workouts 2-3x/week are good, why not 4-5x provided that I'm feeling fine? :confused:

Loads of varaibles....like what is running? (jogging? sprints?) How is your recovery? What do you eat (high carb/low carb), How intense are your workouts, what are the workout volumes, etc..etc...etc. Cortisol is the one thing you don't want to elevate too high as it is catabolic and wastes muscle. Walking will not get cortisol high...where as aerobic HR zones will after 45min.

Most people just do too much, where I say quality is better than quantity. In the case of more "slow go" cardio...aka walking, hiking, etc....most people can handle a high work load of that....or as I like to call it an active lifestyle...and not rebound into overeating to recover or feeling wiped and not being consistent with it.

HIIT vs Slow and steady cardio....it all works and depends largely on the diet and how many calories you are eating to recover from the workouts. Fasted AM slow cardio is a good way to burn fat while not losing muscle....it all works to some degree. The nutritional variables and daily calorie intake are are more important with each program. You can low carb and do slow cardio....or you can do intervals and eat zone. Lyle's clients see results....CF people see results....many different ways to skin the fat cat.

Dave Van Skike
05-07-2008, 11:03 AM
Why does the "more is better" NOT apply here?


Recovery is the wildcard. MOD is correct, at a certain point, long slow cardio is indistinguishable from NEPA (non excercise physical activity) because it requires little or no recovery.

Tirzah Harper
05-15-2008, 10:42 AM
OK MOD...I'm going to resurrect this for one more clarification:

In your experience, if I have a half-hour to spend in exercise and I've already done metcon or weights workout that day, is it better for fat loss to walk for that half-hour, or run? (By running...I can make about an 8.5-minute mile now, which is a great improvement over past years.)
Or sprints. I don't care. If I'm going to get out on the road for half an hour, what's the most effective pace, in your experience?
Thanks....

Allen Yeh
05-15-2008, 11:15 AM
I vote for walk.

Dave Van Skike
05-15-2008, 11:35 AM
OK MOD...I'm going to resurrect this for one more clarification:

In your experience, if I have a half-hour to spend in exercise and I've already done metcon or weights workout that day, is it better for fat loss to walk for that half-hour, or run? (By running...I can make about an 8.5-minute mile now, which is a great improvement over past years.)
Or sprints. I don't care. If I'm going to get out on the road for half an hour, what's the most effective pace, in your experience?
Thanks....


1/2 hour? That's easy.

Meal planning.

Tirzah Harper
05-15-2008, 11:59 AM
Heh, yeah, veg prep!
Alan - why walking over running, when running burns more calories? Are we back to the cortisol thing again?

Dave, good point, I'll keep that in mind.

Mike ODonnell
05-15-2008, 12:22 PM
OK MOD...I'm going to resurrect this for one more clarification:

In your experience, if I have a half-hour to spend in exercise and I've already done metcon or weights workout that day, is it better for fat loss to walk for that half-hour, or run? (By running...I can make about an 8.5-minute mile now, which is a great improvement over past years.)
Or sprints. I don't care. If I'm going to get out on the road for half an hour, what's the most effective pace, in your experience?
Thanks....

Are you talking immediate after a metcon or strength? Or like later in the day after already eating a couple meals since the workout?

As for saying running burns more calories....who's assuming that you are even burning any fat for that period of time and not a large amount of glycogen? (timing of the workout and what you eat dictate that)

Really the pace will depend on:
- When you are doing it around your workouts
- What you eat (for the day, in general, low carb, zone)

Honestly...if you want to run...and it sounds like you do....after your metcon and weights....pop some aminos and a Vit C and go do what you enjoy (whether it is a slow run, biking, run fast/walk intervals...whatever)....aminos should help combat any threat of muscle loss and Vit C can help keep cortisol levels a bit lower. That and do your workouts fasted while having some coffee before hand. (I'd say you could always do what most professional BB do when cutting and use the ECA stack...but I think that is no longer an option)

If just burning calories always burned fat and diet didn't matter....Richard Simmons and Aerobics would of solved obesity 20 years ago.

Tirzah Harper
05-15-2008, 12:36 PM
I generally do intense stuff early in the morning - I've taken to having 1/2 c. homemade kefir with my vitamins pre-workout and heading out the door; it feels okay, FWIW.
Later in the day - lunch or dinner - is when I have a little more time to get outside. I don't *like* running per se; it's more along the lines of attacking my weaknesses than having fun - that and, to generalize terribly, when you see people out there, the fat ones are walking and the thin ones are running. To my brain, that's translated to, I should run vs. walk.

So if a calorie is not a calorie, does this also mean that a calorie burned is not necessarily a calorie burned? I mean, wouldn't the glycogen get replaced from SOMETHING if you're burning the energy? - or am I way off?

How I eat...not IF, not paleo, not Zone. More like Michael Pollan "mostly plants", mostly unprocessed. Sometimes whole grains, some dairy, veggies, fruits, I try to get meat in there every day, desserts on weekend, beer/wine with dinner in moderation. Today breakfast was a fruit-and-veg smoothie with coconut milk and lunch is a hunk of sirloin steak with leftover parsnips/sweet potatoes with a little cream from last night. Lots of salads for lunch. I aim for trying to keep my protein & fat cals about equal to each other, and both of those greater than my carb cals.
But damned if I know what I'm doing some days. Heh. I must look like I know what I'm eating though because my affiliate dude asked me to write an article on nutrition for their newsletter. :D

Tirzah Harper
06-04-2008, 06:01 AM
Just an update -
I've been taking a lot of the advice given on here, started iodine & adrenal supplements, dropped most metcon, am tracking foods & counting calories - and the combination is finally starting to work.:cool:
So thanks all!

Still a long way to go to 8% though...just kidding about the 8% thing!!;)

Garrett Smith
06-04-2008, 06:28 AM
Nice job, Tirzah...keep us updated.

Jane Michel
06-05-2008, 08:48 PM
lol!
sounds like things are starting to move tirzah.
exactly what sort of changes have you made? and what's your caloric intake and breakdown like?

to generalize terribly, when you see people out there, the fat ones are walking and the thin ones are running. To my brain, that's translated to, I should run vs. walk.
this affects me too :|

Tirzah Harper
06-09-2008, 11:47 AM
my dailyplate food log (http://www.thedailyplate.com/users/profile/tirzahrene/)

Let's see...what am I doing?

I'm working to keep my total daily calories at the level that the dailyplate site says is 500 calories under maintenance for my weight.

I try to get calories from fat, protein, and carbs, in that order and from whole foods sources (beer is a whole food, as man CAN live on beer alone. I hope.).

I'm generally not eating a whole lot of gluten, and that may have inadvertently been the cause of the cure of the cold urticaria that I started getting last year.

I don't know what the iodine is doing - it's pretty behind-the-scenes, as I understand - but the adrenal supplement is rocking my world right now, because I feel like myself again for the first time this year: I can handle stress!

I've dropped metcons and running (my "get better at running" goal is temporarily on hold) and am still doing weights workouts, just at a slower pace/more rest between sets.

Sleep is about the same, i.e., I get enough but not plenty.

I don't know if it's any one thing or a combination, or what it took to finally get the fat burning vs. storing, but I'm down about two pounds in a month, I think, which is a huge thing for me considering how long I've been seeing NO results! And I've still got the muscles, which is good.

Oh, and I've also gone to IF'ing on weekdays - I eat from around 11 to 7, roughly and variably. That gives me tea at morning workouts, then later on a cup of kefir with cinnamon; then I can have a 2 p.m. "lunch" and supper without having to eat insanely small meals.

And ALSO I'm following the "no-s" guidelines, which is "no snacks, no sweets, no seconds except on Saturdays, Sundays, or special days." This keeps eating under calorie limits a LOT easier for me, and the food tracking.

so who knows? It's working. Finally. And I relax on the weekends (hence the absence of food logs then) and eat as life leads, in some degree of moderation.

Tirzah Harper
06-17-2008, 09:56 AM
Good grief, it's still working...I'm down three pounds from when I started the supplements Dr. G recommended. And I'm not even watching what I eat as carefully as I used to.
It's so good to feel like myself again. I wouldn't have thought that stress would have been THAT powerful on me. Lesson learned.

Garrett Smith
06-17-2008, 10:23 AM
Nice job!

Tirzah Harper
06-17-2008, 10:38 AM
Thanks...but it feels weird...like magic or something. I'm not doing anything different now EXCEPT those supplements and no metcon. I was doing all the same "right things" for fat loss before. It's a little scary in that it's very mysterious to me that it wasn't working before and it's working just like I knew it should now!

Garrett Smith
06-17-2008, 11:19 AM
Metcon is a double-edged sword...no matter what you hear, it is not the be-all end-all of fitness and fat loss, or health for that matter.

All interventions (be it diet, exercise, or supplementation) must be customized to the patient. There is no one size (or WOD) that fits all...

I only wish that more of my colleagues in medicine understood fitness to a greater extent (or at all, for many of them). It was fitness that got me into nutrition--nutrition then got me into medicine. Now I see that the vast majority of today's medicine became necessary because people forgot about proper fitness and nutrition! Sheesh.

Cal Jones
06-20-2008, 04:38 AM
Nice to see you're making progress, Tirzah.
I'm just back from my amusement park tour of America (Texas up to Minnesota) and food options/exercise opportunities haven't been great, so I have put on a little weight as expected. How much I'm not sure as I've not been to the gym yet to weigh myself. I know I can shift it with V-Diet so I'm not too worried at this point.
I'm interested in the adrenal supplements you mentioned - what are they and where do I get them from?

Tirzah Harper
06-24-2008, 11:35 AM
Cal,
It's dried powdered adrenal glands from leviticus11.com.

Warning: It's some powerful stuff, at least for me it is. I would only mess with it very carefully and hopefully at least talk with Dr. G about it or something first. I never would have expected something that tastes like stale, unsalted beef bouillon to return my body AND MY EMOTIONAL STATE back to my normal happy self. I'm seriously astounded. And thrilled. I reckon this was what was wrong with me...and I can tie it all back to serious stress!

Mike ODonnell
06-24-2008, 11:41 AM
Thanks...but it feels weird...like magic or something. I'm not doing anything different now EXCEPT those supplements and no metcon. I was doing all the same "right things" for fat loss before. It's a little scary in that it's very mysterious to me that it wasn't working before and it's working just like I knew it should now!

Except now you are coming out a state of adrenal fatigue and now back towards healthy function....good job! Shut down your adrenals and thyroid and you will gain weight eating 600 cal a day and 8 hours of cardio....or something like that...but you get the point.

Cal Jones
06-26-2008, 02:19 AM
I'm starting to conclude adrenal fatigue was also my problem (I've added a longish post to the Paleo fertility thread about this) - I already feel significantly better just by dropping metcon, but anything that helps is good.

Unfortunately leviticus11.com doesn't ship abroad. I've found a UK site selling something similar - would either of these be a good sub?

http://www.vitaliahealthnutrition.com/products.asp?category=Specific+Nutrient+Complexes&subcategory=Adrenal+Support

Tirzah Harper
06-26-2008, 05:54 AM
The "Adrenal Glandular" or whatever it was called - the first one, with the main ingredient of adrenal glands, and just a little bit of other stuff - looks closest to what I've been taking, for whatever that's worth.
The other one has a lot of stuff in it and I'd be more suspicious, LOL.
I saw your fertility/adrenal post and yeah, looks like you're not cut out for daily intense training at all. Different strokes for different folks for sure! Find what works for you and do it. I might be able to do daily metcons if I was getting maybe 9-10 hours of sleep a night - in other words, I'd better NOT do daily metcons!

Cal Jones
06-26-2008, 06:19 AM
Thanks - I've ordered some and will let you know how it goes.