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View Full Version : Question about dynamic speed lifts and it's affect upon speed strength reserves....


Arden Cogar Jr.
05-02-2008, 11:18 AM
Hello all,
Maybe this is a question for Greg, or anyone who wants to chime in. As many know, I compete in lumberjack sports for a hobby. It's a sport predicated upon hand eye coordination and hand speed. I got into olympic lifting to make myself faster and It's had great carryover. However, as my season is fastly approaching and my event training volume increasing, I'm finding myself increasingly tired and having absoltuely no "snap" in either my event training sessions or my olympic lifting training sessions.

I've been bantering this back in forth with colleagues and coaches and I'm starting to come to the conclusion that I need to step back from the speed lifts for a little bit and concentrate on my speed event training. Keep on working on ME strength movements (front squat, deads, push presses, squats, ohs, pull ups, hspu, etc...) but back away from c&J and snatches.

I really respect all the folk who take the time to post thoughts and offer advice here and I would appreciate any input anyone may have.

Thanks in advance.

All the best,
Arden

Mike ODonnell
05-02-2008, 11:37 AM
Take a slow week....rest...recover...work on skill stuff only. That would be my recommendation.

Dave Van Skike
05-02-2008, 11:51 AM
Well it's either adrenal fatigue, leaky gut or nightshades.

How's the IF? Zone blocks? enough tabata's?

or......maybe it's the obvious stuff.


Were I in your generously sized shoes, I'd dance with the girl what brung me. I'd go back to the basics, take a couple rest days and then a couple play days.

Drop the volume (you are so freaking strong you're not going to lose ME strength) adn jsut play it. at most singles and doubles as awarm up for your events and then do the events.

I always have the impulse to hammer my weaknesses well past the point where I'm gettign better. The best thing for me, once I start obviously regressing opr losign snap is to drop volume and go back to stuff I'm good at for a while and just play it. All that shit levels out.

Greg Everett
05-02-2008, 11:52 AM
Arden -

Typical competition prep involves systematically reducing volume (and usually loading) and moving more into sport-specific skill work. So a few weeks out, I'd start cutting back on the o-lifts - singles only, fewer sets - basically just some maintenance work.

Arden Cogar Jr.
05-02-2008, 12:41 PM
Mike, Dave, and Greg,
Thank you so much for your thought and effort. Makes perfect sense in what you've written. I've backed off the past few days and I'm already feeling better. I'm doing a demo tomorrow, and event training with some friends and my daughter on Sunday. But no weights until Monday.

I really think I fried my CNS and was in adrenal fatigue. The past four weeks, I've been doing complexes for both my snatch and c&j warm ups (power, hang, full). On my snatch day, I'd do the complex, then three drop snatches with the weight. I'd do these things every other day and even train on days I didn't lift. I think I really need to cut the complexes out for a while.

Dave, very good points and thanks for the kind words. Time to go back to my bread and butter training for a bit. Oh, that does not mean I'm going to do a bicep curl of any sort. Phil and I often joke about training biceps and, given your background and training, I think you'll get the joke. :D

I sincerely appreciate everyone's time.

All the best,
Arden

Steven Low
05-02-2008, 10:05 PM
It's like trying to train sprints everyday.... you can't do it.

Not necessarily adrenal fatigue but something similar of the sort. Probably CNS/sympathetic blunted response.

Speaking of which on a similar note I have a link to a study on my other comp about 1 RM only training consecutive days in a row leading to overtraining. I'll post it next time I get the chance.

Steve Rogers
05-03-2008, 05:50 AM
Dan John's book "From the Ground Up" at http://danjohn.org/book.html covers the use of Olympic lifts for sports strength training. If you haven't read it, I think you'd find it worth your time. Particularly note page 35 on recovery, page 57 on in season training, and page 66 on year round training. While the book is gear towards lifting and trhrowing, it should be applicable to the lumberjack events.

Garrett Smith
05-03-2008, 06:04 PM
Get your sleep.

Reduce the number of long sets (ie. GS KB work) unless it is directly related to your SPP.

Work more on technique stuff.

Don't overdo it this close to your events. The benefits from taking care of your CNS and adrenals will far outweigh any reductions in training volume at this point.

Steven Low
05-03-2008, 07:01 PM
http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/85/6/2352

Weight-trained men [OT ; n = 11; age = 22.0 0.9 (SE) yr] resistance trained daily at 100% one-repetition maximum (1-RM) intensity for 2 wk, resulting in 1-RM strength decrements and in an overtrained state. A control group (Con; n = 6; age = 23.7 2.4 yr) trained 1 day/wk at a low relative intensity (50% 1 RM). After 2 wk, the OT group exhibited slightly increased exercise-induced testosterone (preexercise = 26.5 1.3 nmol/l, postexercise = 29.1 5.9 nmol/l) and testosterone-to-cortisol ratio (preexercise = 0.049 0.007 nmol/l, postexercise = 0.061 0.006 nmol/l) and decreased exercise-induced cortisol (preexercise = 656.1 98.1 nmol/l, postexercise = 503.1 39.7 nmol/l). Serum concentrations for growth hormone and plasma peptide F [preproenkephalin (107---140)] were similar for both groups throughout the overtraining period. This hormonal profile is distinctly different from what has been previously reported for other types of overtraining, indicating that high-relative-intensity resistance exercise overtraining may not be successfully monitered via circulating testosterone and cortisol. Unlike overtraining conditions with endurance athletes, altered resting concentrations of pituitary, adrenal, or gonadal hormones were not evident, and exercise-induced concentrations were only modestly affected.

muscular strength; testosterone; cortisol; growth hormone; peptide F

Possible "CNS fatigue" due to unaltered hormones from 1 RM training daily.

Mark Fenner
05-04-2008, 03:06 PM
As others have said, you likely need to reduce your non-specific work to maintenance levels (for both Oly and ME lifts) and focus (70-80% of your volume/time) on events. This will allow for the "long term delayed effect" of training ... i.e., your fatigue will dissipate and your performance will rise.

One other point, you stated that hand speed is quite important for lumberjack games. I wouldn't necessarily worry about it now (for the close competition), but in future training remember that speed is a separate physiological, trainable (and detrainable) characteristic. ME will train muscular ability (pure strength), Oly/Dynamic/Plyos will train power (various strength-speed, speed-strength levels), but you may want to program specific exercises for development/maintenance of "pure" speed.

I'm no expert on lumberjack games (in fact, I'm basically ignorant of them), but the picture of log rolling brings to mind "pure" foot speed. Things like side-to-side hops (very light, very quick: 30+ doubles in 15s) with one or two legs, single stair (or 2x4) step-up/step-downs (again, quick) might help you work speed in a "general" way. Of course, you must still transfer this speed with event training. But, you don't need a ton of work to maintain: a few sets as part of your warm-up will help maintain "pure speed" while you are focusing on power and strength. As Dan John was discussing on T-Nation, these are also a nice warm up because they prime the CNS (Dan was using short sprints).

(I place "pure speed" in quotes because you are still working against some part of your body weight -- thus, we're pushing back towards strength. True pure speed might be foot tapping while seated.)

For hand speed, shadow boxing can work nicely. Hitting a (heavy) target moves more towards strength because you have to stiffen to transfer force from your body to the target. Various games with tennis balls (partner drops a ball, you catch it; partner throws ball against wall from behind you, you have to react and catch it) can also do this. Juggling might work as well.

Regards,
Mark

Arden Cogar Jr.
05-05-2008, 09:34 AM
Dan John's book "From the Ground Up" at http://danjohn.org/book.html covers the use of Olympic lifts for sports strength training. If you haven't read it, I think you'd find it worth your time. Particularly note page 35 on recovery, page 57 on in season training, and page 66 on year round training. While the book is gear towards lifting and trhrowing, it should be applicable to the lumberjack events.

thanks Steve;

Dan is the shiznit. I'm definitely going to check that out. Believe it or not, throwing is very similar to the type of training I have to do for a few events. But it's much more repetitive.

All the best,
Arden

Arden Cogar Jr.
05-05-2008, 09:35 AM
Get your sleep.

Reduce the number of long sets (ie. GS KB work) unless it is directly related to your SPP.

Work more on technique stuff.

Don't overdo it this close to your events. The benefits from taking care of your CNS and adrenals will far outweigh any reductions in training volume at this point.

Thanks Garrett,
I've done that and I'm feeling much better. I'm not certain if I'm going to weight train or event train tonight. But we'll see when I get home. Had an event field training weekend, so I'll likely weight train if all goes well.

I've got an event this saturday, so I'm going to take it easy later in the week.

All the best,
Arden

Arden Cogar Jr.
05-05-2008, 09:39 AM
Mark,
Here's an example of one of my training sessions. I'm doing the six events that are part of the event filmed by ESPN.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21zfEJZHm1M

I think hand speed may not have been the right way to describe it. It's a body coordination/speed/timing issue very similar to throwing, but different, and it involves really sharp objects.

I think everyone's advice is spot on and I've backed off and I feel better now. I feel invigorated to get back in and tear into it.

All the best,
Arden

As others have said, you likely need to reduce your non-specific work to maintenance levels (for both Oly and ME lifts) and focus (70-80% of your volume/time) on events. This will allow for the "long term delayed effect" of training ... i.e., your fatigue will dissipate and your performance will rise.

One other point, you stated that hand speed is quite important for lumberjack games. I wouldn't necessarily worry about it now (for the close competition), but in future training remember that speed is a separate physiological, trainable (and detrainable) characteristic. ME will train muscular ability (pure strength), Oly/Dynamic/Plyos will train power (various strength-speed, speed-strength levels), but you may want to program specific exercises for development/maintenance of "pure" speed.

I'm no expert on lumberjack games (in fact, I'm basically ignorant of them), but the picture of log rolling brings to mind "pure" foot speed. Things like side-to-side hops (very light, very quick: 30+ doubles in 15s) with one or two legs, single stair (or 2x4) step-up/step-downs (again, quick) might help you work speed in a "general" way. Of course, you must still transfer this speed with event training. But, you don't need a ton of work to maintain: a few sets as part of your warm-up will help maintain "pure speed" while you are focusing on power and strength. As Dan John was discussing on T-Nation, these are also a nice warm up because they prime the CNS (Dan was using short sprints).

(I place "pure speed" in quotes because you are still working against some part of your body weight -- thus, we're pushing back towards strength. True pure speed might be foot tapping while seated.)

For hand speed, shadow boxing can work nicely. Hitting a (heavy) target moves more towards strength because you have to stiffen to transfer force from your body to the target. Various games with tennis balls (partner drops a ball, you catch it; partner throws ball against wall from behind you, you have to react and catch it) can also do this. Juggling might work as well.

Regards,
Mark

Dave Van Skike
05-05-2008, 10:06 AM
After the Apocalypse, I should very much like to be on Arden's side.

Steven Low
05-05-2008, 10:40 AM
Arden that standing one looks a bit shady. People ever chop into their feet before?

Arden Cogar Jr.
05-05-2008, 11:27 AM
Arden that standing one looks a bit shady. People ever chop into their feet before?


Oh......I'd be lying if I said I haven't seen some injuries as you're describing. Believe it or not, the one where the block is vertical has much greater potential for a serious injury.

How should I say this? With the horizontal log, you only have to worry about your toes. :D

Most folk wear chainmail leggings when they train or compete. My wife and daughters do. I don't as of yet. I've been very ****knocks on wood**** fortunate.

All the best,
Arden

Garrett Smith
05-06-2008, 05:49 PM
Lordy....beastly stuff.

I'm with you, Dave.

I'd definitely get some steel toe boots myself.

Allen Yeh
05-07-2008, 03:40 AM
How weird is it that this is the 2nd conversation in which Arden is involved in a conversation involving the apocalypse? Like the first time it still reminds me of Army of Darkness.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qeu6r625KaE

Derek Simonds
05-07-2008, 05:21 AM
I guess I am going to have to watch Army of Darkness after seeing that video.

Whenever Dave brings up the apocalypse I always think of the Zombie War books that came out in the last couple of years.

Derek Simonds
05-07-2008, 05:26 AM
Arden,

The stock saw cuts looked incredible also. They were fast, thin and perfectly straight. The hot saw was smoking! That was definitely a winning run in competition.

Once again you have leaned up a ton in the last few months.

Arden Cogar Jr.
05-07-2008, 07:00 AM
Arden,

The stock saw cuts looked incredible also. They were fast, thin and perfectly straight. The hot saw was smoking! That was definitely a winning run in competition.

Once again you have leaned up a ton in the last few months.


Thanks Derek,
I'm working on it. It's a slooooow life changing process with me. The scales don't have me much lighter and the bodyfat on the scale is only about three or four percent less. But I feel and I think I look different. Nothing profound. Just different. I hope it plays out well.

I love Army of Darkness.....one of my favorites. The whole time I'm watching the movie, I kept on saying to myself....when's he gonna run out of gas....then I remembered how Rambo never changed a clip. That's just the way they roll in Hollywood.

All the best,
Arden