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Larry Wright
05-06-2008, 04:33 PM
I started CF and the Zone in Dec. I weighed around 375-380 lbs. I am now 313lbs. I am following Starting Strength and am now strictly Zoneish/Paleo. My goal is continued fatloss while building muscle and strength. I completed the physical agility test for the Sherrifs dept. on Sat. I passed the test which is amazing in it self. Couldn't have done it 6 months ago. However, I was told by the administrator that I needed to work on my aerobic fitness if I am accepted. I am still a big guy at 6'2. I don't want to tear my knees up. I've been doing some sprinting along with walking. Will the sprinting do the trick? Am I being to impatient? Is there something else I can do or need to consider?

Steven Low
05-06-2008, 09:07 PM
sprint-walk or sprint-rest intervals are fine.

Depends on how long the 'aerobic' distance is supposed to be. 400m or 800m repeats are particularly suckage but good if you need to do something like 1-4 or so miles.

Allen Yeh
05-07-2008, 04:18 AM
Great job on the weight loss!

What is your time frame? What is the distance? How much walking have you been doing? Times per week? Duration?

I know this is contradictory to what Steven said but I would NOT recommend sprinting yet until you lose more weight. You are very correct when worry about your knees/lower body.

Larry Wright
05-07-2008, 04:53 AM
Great job on the weight loss!

What is your time frame? What is the distance? How much walking have you been doing? Times per week? Duration?

I know this is contradictory to what Steven said but I would NOT recommend sprinting yet until you lose more weight. You are very correct when worry about your knees/lower body.

It has been varied. If I am hired the academy will start in Sept. so I have some time but I want to take advantage of it. I have been doing 8 roughly 100 meter sprints 3-4 times a week for the past month. Sprint from starting point 1oo meters and walk back to starting point and sprint again. I've been walking 1 to 1 1/2 miles on my off nites the past couple of months. Since Jan. I have been trying to keep in mind that I don't want to hurt myself or overdo the cardio.

Darryl Shaw
05-07-2008, 06:06 AM
I started CF and the Zone in Dec. I weighed around 375-380 lbs. I am now 313lbs. I am following Starting Strength and am now strictly Zoneish/Paleo. My goal is continued fatloss while building muscle and strength. I completed the physical agility test for the Sherrifs dept. on Sat. I passed the test which is amazing in it self. Couldn't have done it 6 months ago. However, I was told by the administrator that I needed to work on my aerobic fitness if I am accepted. I am still a big guy at 6'2. I don't want to tear my knees up. I've been doing some sprinting along with walking. Will the sprinting do the trick? Am I being to impatient? Is there something else I can do or need to consider?

If you've been told to work on your aerobic fitness then the answer is no, sprinting will not do the job. I presume that as you've completed the physical agility test you're anaereobic conditioning is already adequate for short bursts of activity so it's stamina that you need to improve and that's going to be a problem for someone who weighs 313lbs.
The first thing you need to do is get your weight down to a point where you can do some distance running without wrecking your knees and the most important aspect of achieving this is getting your diet under control so you can create a small negative energy balance and that's just a matter of applying some common sense and willpower to your food choices; lean meat and fish, vegetables, fruit, nuts and seeds are good, donuts are bad etc.
Distance running is going to be out of the question until you've lost some weight so I suggest you get a bike and just concentrate on building a good base level of aerobic conditioning which will help you lose some lard and limit sprint training to once or twice a week to save your knees. Any bike will do, it doesn't have to be expensive, in fact a cheap single-speed like most of us rode as kids is perfect for the job as it means you'll be forced to get out of the saddle and sprint more than you would if you had gears.
Once you've dropped some weight and you're aerobic conditionings improved you should start doing some running in the usual beginners mix of walking and running but if you feel any knee pain cut back on the distance running and get back on your bike so you can continue working on your aerobic conditioning and fat loss without risking injury.

Dave Van Skike
05-07-2008, 08:01 AM
Great job on the weight loss!

What is your time frame? What is the distance? How much walking have you been doing? Times per week? Duration?

I know this is contradictory to what Steven said but I would NOT recommend sprinting yet until you lose more weight. You are very correct when worry about your knees/lower body.

Larry,

What's the test at academy for aerobic fitness? Allan's right, sprints are a great recipe for injury until you get closer to your weight.

there's a ton of barbell or bodyweight complexes you can do in lieu of sprints for now.

Brandon Enos
05-07-2008, 08:57 AM
Congrats! Im in the same boat actually. Down from just over 300 pounds to 250 as of Sunday. Ill be going into a sherrif's academy either this August, or Jan '09 depending on A - my preparedness (sp?) and B - if my connections can get me into the August academy (though it might be to late).

Until recently I havent ran since high school, need to get my time up to a 14 minute mile and a half. Not to mention all the running during training days.

Ive been following Starting Strength with the beggining runners program from runnersworld.com. Had to repeat the 'first week', 1-minute running (7.5 mph), 2-minutes walking (3 mph), for 4 weeks to work on form more than anything else, and no longer any expierence any ankle or knee pain. The program is an 8-week progression to a solid, 30-minute run. You might want to look into it.
http://www.runnersworld.com/cda/smartcoach/beginner/0,7146,s6-238-277-278-0,00.html

Other than that, cant really offer much help, just tell ya what Im trying, though I still have some distance to go and am far from being an expert.

But again, congrats, I can tell ya from expierence, its a long, hard road, but your doing a damn good job.

Steven Low
05-07-2008, 09:31 AM
Oh whoops, kind of glazed over the whole weight issue with knees thing. They're definitely right on that. Don't do too much yet.

Barbell complexes sounds like a good idea right now. Strong metabolic stress. As long as your diet and sleep is sound, the fat will keep on coming off.

Also, work on your running technique. NEVER land on your heels when you're running.


Darryl:

Sprinting WILL do the job for aerobic fitness *IF* the rest times are kept down. I'm not sure if you know much about the anaerobic vs. aerobic but as the sprinting volume drags on it will be more and more aerobic for energy.

I still recommend 400-800m intervals though. Those will rape you. HIIT is better for aerobic conditioning (provided enough volume but still less time than longer dirance running) than steady state running anyway. Well, at least for beginning and intermediate runners looking for aerobic conditioning + fat burn. One of the studies I looked at for HIIT vs. steady state showed that at 1/3 of the time for HIIT training (so for example, 20 minutes HIIT & 60 minutes steady state work) they had the same markers of fatty acid metabolism when all was said and done.

That's generally why metcon/hiit/tabata can complete with aerobic running in times for beginner and intermediate runners because they are significantly aerobic as the volume rises.

Dave Van Skike
05-07-2008, 10:54 AM
Oh whoops, kind of glazed over the whole weight issue with knees thing. They're definitely right on that. Don't do too much yet.

Barbell complexes sounds like a good idea right now. Strong metabolic stress. As long as your diet and sleep is sound, the fat will keep on coming off.

Also, work on your running technique. NEVER land on your heels when you're running.


Darryl:

Sprinting WILL do the job for aerobic fitness *IF* the rest times are kept down. I'm not sure if you know much about the anaerobic vs. aerobic but as the sprinting volume drags on it will be more and more aerobic for energy.

I still recommend 400-800m intervals though. Those will rape you. HIIT is better for aerobic conditioning (provided enough volume but still less time than longer dirance running) than steady state running anyway. Well, at least for beginning and intermediate runners looking for aerobic conditioning + fat burn. One of the studies I looked at for HIIT vs. steady state showed that at 1/3 of the time for HIIT training (so for example, 20 minutes HIIT & 60 minutes steady state work) they had the same markers of fatty acid metabolism when all was said and done.

That's generally why metcon/hiit/tabata can complete with aerobic running in times for beginner and intermediate runners because they are significantly aerobic as the volume rises.

Some of the scientificals might interesting, however totally useless to the OP.

Larry, you're making a huge investement in yourself, and your career. You're agile and likley quite strong but your weight loss goals have very specific challenges.

The best advice I can give you is to get some real (not internet based) support in reaching your goal. Find a coach who has worked with people in your situation or at least find a training buddy or group to push you, prefferbly folks with similar goals.

You've got big brass balls for making it this far, don't let fitness wonks cloud your view of your goals. You're the man...Keep it up.

Dave

Dave Van Skike
05-07-2008, 10:56 AM
doublepost

Darryl Shaw
05-08-2008, 04:44 AM
Darryl:

Sprinting WILL do the job for aerobic fitness *IF* the rest times are kept down. I'm not sure if you know much about the anaerobic vs. aerobic but as the sprinting volume drags on it will be more and more aerobic for energy.

I still recommend 400-800m intervals though. Those will rape you. HIIT is better for aerobic conditioning (provided enough volume but still less time than longer dirance running) than steady state running anyway. Well, at least for beginning and intermediate runners looking for aerobic conditioning + fat burn. One of the studies I looked at for HIIT vs. steady state showed that at 1/3 of the time for HIIT training (so for example, 20 minutes HIIT & 60 minutes steady state work) they had the same markers of fatty acid metabolism when all was said and done.

That's generally why metcon/hiit/tabata can complete with aerobic running in times for beginner and intermediate runners because they are significantly aerobic as the volume rises.

I agree with you that sprinting and lactate threshold training will get the job done faster than LSD training and I'm sure that the OP could go straight out and start doing 400 - 800m intervals today but the training volume required to see significant results would destroy his knees. This is why I sugested a slow and steady approach of building up aerobic conditioning on a bike, which will also strengthen his knees, while he gets his weight down to a level where he can run without too much risk of injury.

Steven Low
05-08-2008, 06:12 AM
Agree and disagree. 2x400m is more than enough to start off with. But agree with building up volume on something non-impact first (and learning good run technique).

Mike ODonnell
05-08-2008, 06:52 AM
It's amazing how much easier it is to run....with less lbs on you. I am sure you are focusing on nutrition...but remember that is where you get most of your weight loss. The conditioning will come. If the test is running...then you will have to run. Biking can help, but to be honest...I can bike no problems but then when I run it just doesn't transition well for me. So to be better at running....I run. Personally I like the 400-800 meter repeats approach if you are doing a mile test....worked for me in the past (800 m runs are the worst possible thing in my book....just long enough to make it hurt....just short enough not to get into a rythm)

Dave Van Skike
05-08-2008, 09:50 AM
Agree and disagree. 2x400m is more than enough to start off with. But agree with building up volume on something non-impact first (and learning good run technique).

Is this a suggestion in general or are is anyone actually suggesting that our friend Larry here to go click off a couple 400m repeats?

I'm going to just take a stab in the dark...

Suggetions of this type may be coming from people who weigh no more than a buck seventy five, let alone two seventy-five...

Steven Low
05-08-2008, 01:29 PM
Is this a suggestion in general or are is anyone actually suggesting that our friend Larry here to go click off a couple 400m repeats?

I'm going to just take a stab in the dark...

Suggetions of this type may be coming from people who weigh no more than a buck seventy five, let alone two seventy-five...
lol, you're too much. -_-

In general. I've already agreed with you guys that it's a bit much on the knees at this point in his weight AND apologized as such. Although you need very little volume for results for newer people if they're sprints with good technique. THAT is what I'm getting at.

Dave Van Skike
05-08-2008, 01:47 PM
Although you need very little volume for results for newer people if they're sprints with good technique. THAT is what I'm getting at.

what results are you speaking of?

Steven Low
05-08-2008, 07:20 PM
Alright, NEVERMIND.

Disregard everything of what I've said here.

Mike ODonnell
05-08-2008, 07:52 PM
Let's all play nice...we are here to help out and while people disagree, personal attacks will not be tolerated. This thread will be shut down if it continues down that road.

With that in mind, we all have our opinions..Larry you can improve some cardio endurance with heavy compound lifting complexes and other types of exertion such as bilking or rowing...but if you have to run in your job and test, one would assume "moderate" amounts of running training would be recommended...not only for the test...but also for your livelyhood and potential safety as a law officer as well. Losing weight goes a long way to helping someone have less stress while they run to reduce chances of injury and increase performance. One can modify the lengths, intensity and rest periods....and I would always say go slow and ramp up little by little with whatever protocol you are training at....as going full sprint out of the gate and injuring oneself is never a good idea.

Larry sounds like you still have a ways to go (Sept being the final test?). So weight loss, lifting complexes, nutrition and moderate cardio intervals are a good plan. If running hurts right now....then find an alternate as you can always walk and diet down the lbs and get the endurance up later.

If you are concerned about knee health, most issues are related to quad/ham muscle imbalances/weaknesses. So squatting ROM is a good place to start. (start light and work up). I would say also working unilateral in general is good, but keep in mind your bw is pretty heavy so the stress is going to be much more than an avg person. I would start with assisted bodyweight lunges (no additional weights needed) and work it slow and controlled. Again...I don't know your current level of fitness or ROM (as I can't see it in person)...so much of this take with caution and always start off slow. Alot of hamstring injury issues can also be traced back to pelvis/hip instability issues (aka keep your...sigh I hate to say it..."Core"...tight when lifting) and make sure your hip flexors are not overly tight (not in fact tight hamstrings...although it will help to keep them somewhat flexible if you have lower back pain). When in doubt....range of motion (aka muscle imbalance/tightness issues) should be addressed before needing to add weight.

Dave Van Skike
05-09-2008, 07:26 AM
don't take the lightweight comment as a personal attack, Steven...it's just an observation. a lot of regurgitated "current thinking" gets doled out to folks like Larry from people who have no practical experience with the situation. assuming it will yield some universally good "results."

Tom Rawls
05-09-2008, 11:32 AM
Larry,

Do you have access to a good rowing machine? The rower offers an excellent way to get in some high-intensity work or longer endurance sessions without beating the shit out of your knees.

Also, walking is good.

Larry Wright
05-09-2008, 04:26 PM
Larry,

Do you have access to a good rowing machine? The rower offers an excellent way to get in some high-intensity work or longer endurance sessions without beating the shit out of your knees.

Also, walking is good.

No. I don't really have alot of knee pain currently. I take glucosamine and a good amount of fish oil to help with the stress on my joints. I am worried about running/jogging/sprinting now and then a few years from now regretting it because I damaged my knees and it just took some time to see the effects.

Allen Yeh
05-09-2008, 05:20 PM
That's a good thing.

I would start with the foot mobility drills prior to all of your walks. I found that really helped circumvent most of the pains I get when running.

Paul McKirdy
06-11-2008, 07:56 AM
background: 5'11" 325#. sq 400+ dl 500+ op275ish haven't ME'd in two months and doing more metcon lately than strength.

I presently row and bicycle as well continuing regular powerlifitng sessions focusing only on compound lifts. Order of volume, squats, deadlift, power cleans, overhead presses. I don't bench very much at all cept to gauge strength once in a blue moon as I do tons of push ups dips and pullups.

A recent addition that I found has actually leaped my aerobic fitness as gauged my capcity on the rower has been adding two tabata sessions somewhere in the week. I use dumbbell thrusters for one and for the other I do a compound tabata of pullups and dips since I have not yet trained muscle ups, but I will, yes I will ;). This I use modified times. 30 seconds assisted pullups 30seconds dead hang dips 30 seconds rest. repeat 8 times.

All anecdotal to be sure, but my waste is still falling and my performance level is still improving. To run you have to run and do pullups to do pullups, just like GNU is Not Unix, and I'll leave that to those who have to do it and know more about it. My goal is that I am going to get back down to around 250ish and doing sets of ten or more dead hang pullups and twice BW squats and deads lots of stretching and hi intensity rowing and biking for endurance. At this point in my life for fight or flight Im prettymuch commited to fight, it is what it is so I will continue to train that way.

To reiterate, purely on the notion of being able to do more work over a longer period of time, adding tabatas I have found helped me a ton. They are definitely an awesome tool in the chest.

Ben Reynolds
07-15-2009, 10:51 PM
I'm partial to burpees myself. Long sets shred fat and increase metabolism like nothing else.

Blair Lowe
07-16-2009, 12:55 AM
Could burpees be a big stress on the joints at that size? That's what I would be concerned with. There is the round back issue with the burpee as you tuck up from the pushup and the impact landing.

I still like the idea of the rower and tabata's preferably. I dunno about the bike because I hear about knee pain with biking and I've felt knee funniness myself just having to ride to and fro from point A to B as my transportation. Swimming maybe as well or running in water.

For a big guy, I think I would err on the safety side and at most do vertical jumps and landings from a 1/4-above parallel squat for metcon or lunges. For that jump, I would focus on landing correctly. Yeah, I'm a gymnast and I use these for warmups or conditioning but they are pretty useful so long as they aren't done in excess.

BB/DB complexes like the "Bear". I think learning how to POSE with limited volume would be good so long as the focus was on learning the form with a light intensity.


Talk about thread revival, but it's a good thread.

Kevin Perry
07-16-2009, 09:35 AM
This thread is over a year old