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Brandon Enos
05-20-2008, 08:44 AM
If one were to take deadlifting out of their program for ~2 months or so, but were rotating cleans and snatches (ie Day A was clean, Day B was snatch). Do you believe they would see any significant loss in pounds when returning to deadlifts? If so, how much would you guess?

Here's a rough draft of the program Im putting together (note this is going to be after I get done with the ME Black Box variant Im on right now and the exercises are in no particualr order yet):

Done Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday

A Day -
Back Squat
Bench Press
Chinup
Clean

B Day -
Front Squat
Standing Press
Pullup
Snatch

Followed by abdominal and grip work.

And yes, I did get the base template from SS, but modified it a bit based on my goals.

I dont really need deadlifting in my program right now with my goals, but at the same time, dont want to see any significant loss in numbers when I go back.

John Alston
05-20-2008, 09:44 AM
Hard to say without your numbers. Is your clean way lower than you dl? If so, you might lose some dl simply b/c you are never pulling heavy, for example.

Anyway, if your goals aren't dl dependent, stoppy worrying about your dl for now.

John Alston
05-20-2008, 09:45 AM
Also, I'd not use the order of exercises, personally. High skill moves come first in my book, before any fatigue sets in.

Kelly Frankson
05-20-2008, 03:25 PM
I've just been focussing on O-lifts since December, each week my training will typically look something like this:

Session 1:
Snatches
Rack Jerks
Back Squats
Snatch pulls

Session 2:
Power Snatches
Power Cleans
Back Squats
Snatch pulls

Session 3:
Clean and jerks
Power Snatches from blocks
Front Squats
Clean pulls

Session 4:
Snatches
Clean and Jerks
Back Squats
Snatch pulls

And then I'll also do Back extensions, GHSP, Weighted overhead abmat situps, rolling medball situps, planks and other core type stuff atleast 3 times a week and then plyometric stuff twice a week.

I haven't touched deadlifts since November and just re did my max today for fun and got 270kg (a new pb by 10lbs)-to give you an idea of where its at in relation to my clean and snatch pulls, typically the clean pulls are done at 85kg and snatch pulls at 65kgs.

So laying off deadlifts didnt hurt mine at all, but I think that has more to do with the strength my core has gained than anything else.

kel

Steven Low
05-20-2008, 10:30 PM
Yeah, frankly at least doing some form of oly (speed lifts) should at the very least keep your lift numbers up unless you have an elite deadlift... then you might lose some strength.

John Alston
05-21-2008, 06:36 AM
Since your fast pulls are so much lighter, you might lose some dl number if you neglect any heavy pulls, maybe not. Again, if it ain't central to your goal, stop worrying.
I'd still do back squats after pulls. 2 limb exercises after 4 limb exercises. But thats just me and Dr. Hewie (http://bastardolifters.blogspot.com/2008/02/dr.html).

Brandon Enos
05-21-2008, 08:11 AM
To answer the first post, my deadlift is unimpresive at 275 last time I checked my 1RM about a month and a hlaf ago. That's one reason Im worried about it, its so low, but like you said, its doesnt fit my current goals so I shouldnt worry.

As far as order goes. Does the thing about Oly work coming first still apply if its power cleans/snatches versus regular cleans/snatches?

Allen Yeh
05-21-2008, 08:18 AM
I would definitely put "explosive" exercises first.

John Alston
05-21-2008, 08:29 AM
Agreeing with Allen.
Work that requires more percision before lower skilled work.
Explosive work before slower work.
Full body before body partitions.
Just general principles I tend to follow.

Steven Low
05-21-2008, 09:35 AM
Agreed. I know Rip puts the power cleans after the squats in his workout well mainly cause his workout is after mass gain and not good skilled work with oly (and it is power cleans which are somewhat less technical anyway).

Dave Van Skike
05-21-2008, 09:38 AM
better yet...do deadlifts and explosive pulls.

this doesn't have to be complicated. anytime I'm worried about losing the groove in a lift I'll keep it in either a warm up or a back off set. for deadlifts here's what i've done. it's similar to the "progressive pull" thing you've heard of.

work up to a heavy double or triple in

power snatch,
powerclean
snatch or clean hi pull.

(i don't compete in or care about the full lifts, so you'll be different here)


then...

a couple back off set of fast deadlifts, doubles to keep you honest but never more than 70%. (more like 50-65% is my sweet spot) this should be FAST & eazzzy. just to keep your brain in the deadlift genre but not to drive some big muscular adaptation.

if it's a big day. I'll finish with a quick little circuit of assist moves, 2-3 sets of barbell or DB rows/fast "lite" shrugs/ghr and grip work.

the deads aren't taxing, in some, ways they are like a heavy pull without a knee rebend and without a shrug, done at the end they won't screw your mechanics up too bad (if you believe in that sort of thing). you won't lose your dead and you might even get better.

Dave Maerk
08-01-2008, 12:08 AM
From Jan to Jun I did an Oly lift routine (after a year of SS). My DL 5RM dropped from 315 to 285, although my squat stayed the same.

Paul McKirdy
08-01-2008, 01:44 AM
"The best way to train the deadlift is to not train the deadlift."

Everything core and POS Chain will actually assist\increase deadlift pulling. My recent PR came after over a month of not doing deadlift, but rather changing focus to box squats, good mornings, sled pulling GPP training, heavy standing abdominal work and as many pullups as I have reasonably been able to squeeze in.

If you are progressing in exercises like the power clean and pullups, you actually should gain DL and the very least maintain. Instantaneous force numbers for time * velocity * weight will actually be higher than static effort deadlifts for much less bar weight because of the highly increased velocity.

James Evans
08-01-2008, 06:20 AM
Agreed. I know Rip puts the power cleans after the squats in his workout well mainly cause his workout is after mass gain and not good skilled work with oly (and it is power cleans which are somewhat less technical anyway).

Sorry re-reading this several months later.

That's the principle for novices: Focus on the squat, recover through the bench or the press, hit the powercleans. The novice will have low numbers/shitty technique so fatigue isn't such a factor.

As you advance then cleans and snatches go first and form/technique is a primary concern. Again recover through the pressing movements and squat last. I was reading PP the other day for another reason and this stuck in my mind.

The idea of squatting or deadlifting last is pretty repellant to me though. Want to get the tough stuff out of the way. I prefer:

Powerclean
Squat
Bench
Weighted chin

or

Squat
Deadlift
Press
Pullup

Maybe not the best but suits me. What I notice the most is even with 1x5 of deads how shot my pullups can be afterwards.

Anthony Bainbridge
08-19-2008, 12:24 PM
Maybe I'm biased towards the deadlift, but what type of goals would not benefit from a heavier deadlift? :eek:

Personally I think all men should be able to deadlift +300. Unless you are injured. And by injured I mean you are missing an arm or a leg.

If I could only make one change to your suggested program, it would be to drop FS and add deadlifts. Use your back squat day to rotate through variations of your squats if necessary.

Leo Soubbotine
08-19-2008, 01:20 PM
Glad to see you on these board Anthony!

Dave Van Skike
08-19-2008, 01:46 PM
Maybe I'm biased towards the deadlift, but what type of goals would not benefit from a heavier deadlift? :eek:



chilli cook off champion, closing Captain of Crush number 3, triple bodyweight one legged seated calf raise, swimming the english channel...........

Gavin Harrison
08-21-2008, 10:53 AM
chilli cook off champion, closing Captain of Crush number 3, triple bodyweight one legged seated calf raise, swimming the english channel...........

All of these goals are aided by heavy deadlifting...

Dave Van Skike
08-21-2008, 11:20 AM
All of these goals are aided by heavy deadlifting...

you're doing it wrong.