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Dave Gibbs
05-21-2008, 08:31 PM
Hi guys
my current program is below which I have been following for 4 weeks. My question is as to my DL which has stalled badly. When I started my DL was much better than my BS but I have found that whereas I have easily added 5-10kg per seeion on my BS my DL has actually gone backkwards.
My theory is that doing DL after BS is fatiguing me too much and I should maybe either put the DL first on one session or reduce the volume to 5x3 or some variant.
I am 39/6'3/216. My BS has gone from 110x5 to 145kgx5 in the 4 weeks, my DL has gone from 135x5 to 145kgx5 and stalled for the last 2 sessions.

schedule -
m -OFF
T -ME
W-CF
T-ME
F-OFF
S-CF
S-CF

ME 1 = 5X5 BS/DL/WEIGHTED DIPS
ME 2 = 5X5 BS/PC/SP
ME 3 = 5X5 BS/DL/WEIGHTED PULLUPS

I just cycle the workouts. I had planned to keep to this for 8 weeks anticipating some plateauing by then but not so quickly.
cheers in advance.

Dave Van Skike
05-21-2008, 08:51 PM
two weeks is not a stall, it's a blip. if you're going to fiddle with it, try dropping the DL volume a little or do it first on the second day. and drop that midweek CF if your goal is to get stronger. If your goal is not to get stronger, then what do you care if your deadlift stalls?

Júlíus G. Magnússon
05-22-2008, 04:16 AM
Too much CF in my opinion.

What exactly do you mean by 'CF,' though? Short, medium, long metcons? The WOD as prescribed (even if that's another max effort day)?

I say you need to drop the volume of your training down. Three CF days and two high volume ME days in one week sounds pretty steep for gaining strength at that level.

Steven Low
05-22-2008, 05:09 AM
5x5 seriously? With CF?

Plus with the aforementioned 5x5 DL following your 5x5 BS.

You need to run like 3x5 max especially if you're gonna keep the CF and consecutive days exercising.... but I'd drop at least one CF since you don't need much metcon to keep metcon ability.

Programming is hard as hell to do... but there's one thing you should always avoid which is high volume heavy lifting especially with accessory (see metcon, etc.) work. Unless you plan on beating yourself into the ground and then taking a week off hoping for an uber-supercompensation phase. More ain't always better 'specially with heavy lifting.. need to get the quality stuff in.

Anyway, if you backed off for like ~4-5 days I'd bet you'd hit a PR.. but it's not gonna help going back to the same program.

Dave Gibbs
05-22-2008, 06:46 PM
Too much CF in my opinion.

What exactly do you mean by 'CF,' though? Short, medium, long metcons? The WOD as prescribed (even if that's another max effort day)?

I say you need to drop the volume of your training down. Three CF days and two high volume ME days in one week sounds pretty steep for gaining strength at that level.

I will do the WOD unless it is strength of ME bias, it which case I do one of my own which tend to be rowing/KB based and keep to short,medium metcon efforts.
I know volume is probably the answer and I have to get better at resting. I have a sendentary office based job and I use exercise as a strong stress reliever but I do realise that as I hurtle towards middle age that rest becomes ever more important.
cheers mate.

Dave Gibbs
05-22-2008, 06:51 PM
5x5 seriously? With CF?

Plus with the aforementioned 5x5 DL following your 5x5 BS.

You need to run like 3x5 max especially if you're gonna keep the CF and consecutive days exercising.... but I'd drop at least one CF since you don't need much metcon to keep metcon ability.

Programming is hard as hell to do... but there's one thing you should always avoid which is high volume heavy lifting especially with accessory (see metcon, etc.) work. Unless you plan on beating yourself into the ground and then taking a week off hoping for an uber-supercompensation phase. More ain't always better 'specially with heavy lifting.. need to get the quality stuff in.

Anyway, if you backed off for like ~4-5 days I'd bet you'd hit a PR.. but it's not gonna help going back to the same program.

so funny Stephen, I knew you would metaphorically raise your eyebrows at the program.:eek: I am guilty of 'more is better' which partly is just my personality anyway but also becoming older and getting paranoid that your going to go down the drain if you miss a couple of days.
I reckon I might try ;

m -rest
t - ME
w -cf - short metcon
t - ME
f rest
s -cf - longer metcon
s -cf - whatever

Thanks chaps

Allen Yeh
05-22-2008, 06:55 PM
What is your goal for the next 8 weeks?

I echo what a lot of others have already said. Trying to couple a true 5x5 program with 3 days of CF is a recipe for not gaining in one direction or the other.

If you want to add in ME days that are more than what CF prescribes there are plenty of other ways to go about it. Coach Rutherfords black box method which I personally had some success with. As well as trying to integrate Dan John's One lift a day program with CF. The volume of lifting is much lower than a true 5x5.

Dave Gibbs
05-22-2008, 07:30 PM
What is your goal for the next 8 weeks?

I echo what a lot of others have already said. Trying to couple a true 5x5 program with 3 days of CF is a recipe for not gaining in one direction or the other.

If you want to add in ME days that are more than what CF prescribes there are plenty of other ways to go about it. Coach Rutherfords black box method which I personally had some success with. As well as trying to integrate Dan John's One lift a day program with CF. The volume of lifting is much lower than a true 5x5.

not disagreeing with you however with the exception of my DL the other lifts are progressing very well.
I hit 155kg for BS last night up from 110kg
PC has gone from 70kg to 87.5kg
SP has gone from 50kg to 60kg
weighted dips up to +25kg from +15kg
weighted pullups up to +30kg from +10kg.
so overall I feel I am making good progress after 4weeks with the exception of my DL. The program is not killing me and I am sensible enough to take an extra rest day if a feel stuffed, I am just surprised/a little confused as to why the DL is the odd man out.
Thanks mate.

Steven Low
05-22-2008, 09:36 PM
Cause DL uses all those muscles that you're over-exerting. Well, we could go into a discussion about CNS but that's still fairly unclear how to much heavy work actually does affect the CNS.. but we'll just say it does. Hehe.

And I'm glad you caught the raised eyebrow effect. I was going for that. :)

Depending on how much you're doing in that ME/CF/ME part it may not be long enough to recovery for the CF/CF part of your week. That's where you're running into problems where you're underrecovered going into more work.. just exacerbates the problem. If you feel performance decreasing feel free to back off a couple days to let your body catch up.

Steven Low
05-23-2008, 10:32 AM
Speaking of excessive volume 5x5 programs....

http://www.t-nation.com/article/most_recent/reg_parks_5x5_program

Maybe if you're on roids you can recover from that. Or using pansy weights.

Allen Yeh
05-23-2008, 10:59 AM
Speaking of excessive volume 5x5 programs....

http://www.t-nation.com/article/most_recent/reg_parks_5x5_program

Maybe if you're on roids you can recover from that. Or using pansy weights.

If you did this using a true 5x5 template...I'm not sure a person would last a week.

Derek Weaver
05-23-2008, 11:27 AM
Speaking of excessive volume 5x5 programs....

http://www.t-nation.com/article/most_recent/reg_parks_5x5_program

Maybe if you're on roids you can recover from that. Or using pansy weights.

Or eating 5000+ calories/day and sleeping 12 hours/day. Doubt that would even do the trick though.

My jaw dropped when I saw that one this morning.

Dave Van Skike
05-23-2008, 11:34 AM
Or eating 5000+ calories/day and sleeping 12 hours/day. Doubt that would even do the trick though.

My jaw dropped when I saw that one this morning.



the first two "stage"s aren't that bad. there's a lot of other stuff in there that I doubt he did. For a beginning lifter, the skeleton of it is doable. Once your deadlift work sets are approaching double bodyweight you're probably foxtrot uniform charlie tango.

also, i didn't see any percentages. If a person is working in the lower end, say 70-75% might actually be doable.

I'd rather see someone take an honest stab at thsi than some candyass swiss ball thing out of men's health.

Derek Weaver
05-24-2008, 03:43 PM
the first two "stage"s aren't that bad. there's a lot of other stuff in there that I doubt he did. For a beginning lifter, the skeleton of it is doable. Once your deadlift work sets are approaching double bodyweight you're probably foxtrot uniform charlie tango.

also, i didn't see any percentages. If a person is working in the lower end, say 70-75% might actually be doable.

I'd rather see someone take an honest stab at thsi than some candyass swiss ball thing out of men's health.

Well said as usual Dave. I'd much rather see someone do something like this than sit around doing bosu ball squats. Makes my head hurt just thinking about it. May even fit in well with some sort of a work yourself into the ground til you feel horrible, then back off period of training for good gains.

I saw a quote one time that said something to the effect of "The old stuff always worked and always will."

Gant Grimes
05-24-2008, 05:40 PM
Sigh.

Hint: Ask for programming help.

5x5 DLs is good for...I don't know...hurting yourself to collect worker's comp? Speeding up that back injury you were always hoping for? Speeding yourself towards a forced layoff?

On the bright side, if you're adding 5-10 kilograms a workout, your squat will stall quickly, too.

Dave Gibbs
05-26-2008, 06:14 PM
Hint: Ask for programming help.

5x5 DLs is good for...I don't know...hurting yourself to collect worker's comp? Speeding up that back injury you were always hoping for? Speeding yourself towards a forced layoff?

On the bright side, if you're adding 5-10 kilograms a workout, your squat will stall quickly, too.

you blokes crack me up:D
seriously though, what would you recommend? I am not some 18 year old muppet who knows nothing, part of the reason for the rapid gains from BS is probably that I did a lot of weightlifting and powerlifting 15 years ago so I have a good foundation of strength work which I guess has stood me well.

Dave Van Skike
05-27-2008, 10:48 AM
The suggestions were:

1. Get rid of at least the midweek CF.

2. Reduce DL volume on ME days. Try 1x5 instead of 5x5.

3. Work deadlift assit one day a week instead of DL.

Rows, RDL, Rack Pulls, Halting Deads, Snatch Grip Deads, Deads off a box, Straight leg DL.

Dave Gibbs
05-27-2008, 05:32 PM
Thanks mate.