PDA

View Full Version : Gant's Hybrid programs


Gant Grimes
06-02-2008, 11:03 PM
Several months ago, I had some conversations with Garrett Smith and a few others regarding the potential benefits of increased strength and gymnastics programming and shorter metcons sessions. I embarked on a 12-week project where I was going to do a mixture of gymnastics, Olympic lifting, and slow lifting with limited metabolic conditioning. All metcons were to be kept under 10 minutes, and most of them had a strength-biased. We suspected that 1) strength is the most important aspect of metcon, and 2) excessive metcon is unnecessary and possibly counterproductive.

Going into the project, I was a 33 year old trainee with a little over a year of CF. I was reasonably strong (total in the low 900s) and decently fit (upper quartile in most exercises in logsitall), but nothing special. I had enough ďtime in gradeĒ to test the program without having to worry about skewed results due to the novice effect. In other words, I was a pretty good lab rat.

It didnít take 12 weeks to see results. Within the first month I hit 7 PRs spread across several domains, strength, metcon, and mixed metcon (death by pullup). After 8 weeks, I had a cheat day because Murph came up. Despite only having run about 2.5 miles to date in 2008, and not having done anything over 10 minutes in two months, I ran my first sub-40 Murph. I ďcheatedĒ again two weeks later, setting a 2 round PR in Cindy although I had done very few pushups or air squats in the past weeks.

Over the course of the project, I ate mostly Paleo (I say mostly because I took substantial liberties with dairy, ice cream in particular). In Zone terms, I was probably consuming ~ 26 P, 12 C, 40-50 F. I didnít measure.

I unofficially ended the project last week with PRs in the CFT and deadlift. Over a 10.5 week training period (45 training sessions to be precise), I hit 21 PRs in strength, metcon, and mixed workouts. Several of those broke long-standing PRs. A couple of them broke PRs set during this project.

I am making no conclusions beyond what worked for me. And what worked for me was a blend of strength, power, and gymnastics training with short, intense, and usually heavy metcons. I didnít have to put up with sore joints like I did doing pure strength work, and I didnít have to deal with a fried CNS like I did doing pure CF. Itís a nice blend that kept me interested and focused every training session. I also recovered well (Saturday was an optional training day; I often skipped it, giving me a 4 day training week). Incidentally, I dropped body fat and increased my LBM over the last several months.

I am attaching my results below for those that are interested in this sort of thing. I will also post three templates for hybrid training programs. For more detailed information, look at my training log (linked below) started on March 17.

I will continue to train like this because it has been extremely effective for me. It might work for some of you, too.

----------

PRs @ ~186 lbs BW:
107.5 kg (236#) power clean
110 kg (242#) split jerk
Fran (4:17)
Grace (3:40)
Death-by-pullup (19 rounds + 7 pullups)
Helen (8:52)
100 kg (220#) hang power clean
Elizabeth (8:25)
305# bench press
120# weighted pullup
77.5 kg (170#) OHS
105 kg (231#) thruster
Murph (38:52)
Fran (4:03)
122.5 kg (269#) front squat
30 MU's (6:16)
Cindy (26 rds + 5 pulls)
82.5 kg (181#) snatch
125 kg (275#) front squat
1019# CrossFit Total
451# deadlift

----------

I will attach three hybrid programming templates (along with commentary) tomorrow (I owe several of you an email; give me another day).

Derek Weaver
06-03-2008, 12:39 AM
Gant,
That is awesome. Was this part of the Tabata Project you had going? I really like what you got done here. 1000 lb. CF total is most impressive to me, and there are a LOT of impressive feats on there. I'd love to see the templates and can't wait for you to post them. This would make a good article..

I've been exerimenting more with sand bags, kettle bells and gymnastics lately as that's what's available to me for another two days or so til I can move some Iron again. I'll have to implement something similar to see what's up.

You IF too don't you?

Garrett Smith
06-03-2008, 08:13 AM
http://image.hotdog.hu/_data/members0/832/141832/images/ali-g-respect.jpg

Are you saying the project is over, or are you continuing along this route?

Tom Rawls
06-03-2008, 08:56 AM
Look forward to seeing the training templates.

Question: Am I correct in recalling that you also do some mountain bike riding? If yes, how did this program affect your riding?

Gant Grimes
06-03-2008, 09:22 AM
Dr. G. The experiment is over because the question, in my mind, is settled. This is how I will train from now on. I just won't obsess over data collection.

Tom, I still fall a lot. I just don't get tired.

Gant Grimes
06-03-2008, 09:27 AM
Program notes

• These programs will increase static strength, explosive strength, and limit strength. This increase in strength will lead to substantial improvements in metabolic conditioning.
• Metcon should be short and intense. Keep it under 10 minutes (usually under 5). Keep it heavy, and keep it functional. Select workouts that require very little rest. Scale reps, rounds, or time before scaling weight! (This might be the most important bit you'll read on this). This is key to the neuroendocrine response we’re looking for.
• Use KB’s, tires, farming implements, stones, boat chains, and sledgehammers liberally. Sprint often (Tabatas, 100s, 200s, 400s). Full body exercises (cleans, thrusters, swings) are great. Use couplets and triplets. NO chipper workouts.
• The exercise order and selection promotes increases in strength and, if you eat for it, lean mass. Everything you do on this program packs a substantial neuroendocrine wallop. Pick your metcon exercises accordingly. You should be shaving twice a day on this program.
• Eat more protein. If you’re Zoning, increase protein intake by 2-4 blocks and fat by 8-16 blocks. Do not increase your carbs (I have accounted for them in the fat increase).
• Go heavy, go hard, or don’t go at all. The volume is low enough, and the metcons are short enough that your CNS should be stable throughout the program. If you need a day off, take it. Don’t tear your body down while it’s trying to build itself up.
• Eat lots of red meat. It’s just better. Consuming large quantities of blood-soaked animal tissue puts you in a better frame of mind to train like this. If you eat eggs, eat whole eggs.

Programs


• There are three programs.
• The 3/1 program. I designed one for people who like the 3/1 CF schedule. Personally, I think 6 workouts in 8 days is a bit much. But you wanted it, so here it is.
• The novice strength-biased program. This is a 3/1/2/1 schedule. I got used to training like this doing the PMenu WOD, and I like it. It’s also an intermediate programming scheme discussed in Practical Programming. I wrote this program because I train with a guy who doesn’t need to do as much OLY lifting as I do. The power versions of the OLY lifts are done. There is also an extra day of push presses or rack jerks. If you train on Saturday, just do a regular WOD (this can be a little longer). If you train with weights, keep it light and drill some OLY lifts.
• The intermediate/advanced strength-biased program. This is my personal program. Saturday is optional. This is where I drill OLY by doing assistance exercises (snatch balance, tall cleans, etc.) and get on the rings. Or I get in the canoe, go mountain biking, or play a little judo. Saturday is not a hard training day for me. So yeah, I pretty much train 4 out of 7 days.

Other concerns


• Do other stuff. It’s summer time. Walk, swim, play softball, ride a bike. Whatever. Don’t pass a bar, set of rings, or rock ledge without pulling yourself up on it.
• Substitute if you feel the need. I refuse to miss Murph or Filthy Fifty. If one of your favorite WOD comes up, do it.
• Deadlift every week. They’re good for your soul. Cool down with reverse hypers 2-4 times a week. They’re good for your deadlifts and thus good for you soul. Your back will thank you.
• 5 minutes a week of KB long-cycle clean & jerks has profound effects.
• Read Christopher Sommer’s article on front lever progressions (also has planche progressions).
• Read up on the Bulgarian method.
• Squat low for training. If you’re a guy, try to tea-bag the platform. You’ll be amazed how much you’ll be able to lift in a CFT when you only squat to regulation depth.

Sets, reps, and exercises (sets x reps)


• Welcome back to linear progression! We’re going to get stronger every week. Linear strength progression works a little differently in a program with gymnastics and metcon, so pay attention to what’s happening. I have borrowed heavily from Rippetoe, Everett, and Louie Simmons in designing this.
• OLY lifts should be 5-8 sets (or more) of singles or doubles. Look to Coach B. or the PMenu for additional programming ideas. You have to be careful with your loads and volume on this stuff. It can sneak up on you.
• The slow lifts should start with 3x5 (including dips and pull-ups). Drop to 3x3 after 6 weeks or whenever the volume becomes too much. You may also want to mix in some 5x3, 5x2 or 7x1. It’s your program! Eventually you’ll almost exclusively be doing either 1) med volume/high intensity or 2) low volume/stupid intensity!
• Only do one work set on the deadlift if you’re working with max numbers.
• Mix sets across with progressive loading. You can do 3x3 across one week and 5x3 progressive (working up to a 3RM). Do progressive loading at least once every third time for each lift.
• Work in some ME/DE days as necessary. We’re all about speed and power. I mix in plenty of box squatting so I can squat frequently. It helps your deadlift, too. Reverse hypers help everything.
• Deadlift every week (it’s worth repeating). If it tears you up like it does me, mix in some rack pulls and halting deadlifts. I love 3x6 snatch grip deadlifts off a 4” box.
• Substitute OLY lifts as needed. Play with the full and hang positions to optimize results. If you’re on the advanced program, do the full version at least once a week.

Bottom line

• Go fast, go heavy, and go hard. If you're doing sets across, increase it every time. Don't reset if you fail at 5, just drop to 3. If you're doing CF ME work (5 triples, 7 singles), go for a PR every time. Metcons are short, heavy, and functional. Don't rest.

*****
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k216/gantgrimes/wod1.jpg

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k216/gantgrimes/wod2.jpg

Garrett Smith
06-03-2008, 09:41 AM
Dr. G. The experiment is over because the question, in my mind, is settled. This is how I will train from now on. I just won't obsess over data collection.

I concur wholeheartedly. :) This was a fun learning process.

I can't wait for the PMenu OL seminar this weekend, I'll definitely put more OL in my program once I feel even more solid in my form.

Steven Low
06-03-2008, 10:31 AM
• Welcome back to linear progression! We’re going to get stronger every week. Linear strength progression works a little differently in a program with gymnastics and metcon, so pay attention to what’s happening. I have borrowed heavily from Rippetoe, Everett, and Louie Simmons in designing this.

This is true. Primarily weightlifting going over to more gymnastics/bodyweight based stuff does tend to go back to linear gains mainly because the strength is "there" but it's not directly applicable to moving the body in space.. yet.

As my knee gets better hopefully I can add some more short metcons in a similar fashion as your programming (or Garrett's).

Garrett Smith
06-03-2008, 12:31 PM
My last two Saturday metcons were WAAAY too long, around 30 minutes each. The "more is better" is an insidious creeper with metcon...must. not. let. it. in...chippers just kill me, as do metcons with total running of over a mile.

Funny thing, I really needed a break this last week due to feeling toasted. I need to listen to myself more and keep the metcons short (really short) and sweet.

Arien Malec
06-03-2008, 01:44 PM
***I'll edit this shortly***

Hopefully in the form of a PM article?

Derek Weaver
06-03-2008, 03:21 PM
Thanks so much for sharing all your findings with us Gant. I've been thinking more and more that CF has gotten too heav yon the 30 ish minute MetCons without enough strength work.

I personally am never more toasted than doing Fran. I don't care if it's the Filthy Fifty, Angie or some other 300-500 (or more) rep metcon, Fran just does me in.

This style of training looks like a pretty decent template to train for a TSC doesn't it? I've been thinking of entering a TSC in the next 9-12 months, but don't know where to start training for a comp like that... I think this may be it.

Leo Soubbotine
06-03-2008, 05:08 PM
Gant - I totally agree on the Hybrid programs. Extra planned strength work - works magically!

After the competition this weekend( SE CF Challenge where I came in 3rd to my huge surprise) I realized that my main weakness is upper body (pressing strength). I discussed it with Rip and he just said to add bench and here's what I came up with:

I'll be following CF.com - Mon-Fri and occasional Saturday.
On Rest Days I'll do either WOD A or WOD B listed below:

A
Power Snatch 3x5
Muscle Up 3x5
Thruster 3x5
RDL 1x5
Kipping pullups 1x max

B
Power Clean 3x5
Bench 3x5
Thruster 3x5
HSPU 3x5

That should help me get my pressing strength up.
Pulling strength isn't lagging nearly as much as pressing.

Steve Rogers
06-03-2008, 07:05 PM
This style of training looks like a pretty decent template to train for a TSC doesn't it? I've been thinking of entering a TSC in the next 9-12 months, but don't know where to start training for a comp like that... I think this may be it.

Yes, this should be good TSC preparation, though I'd sub kettlebell drills for the gymnastics. I'd also enter the next TSC in the Fall to get the feel of it and see where you stand. If you're interested in competing, do it early and often. I entered the last TSC with only a few weeks of training and I'm glad I did, rather than wait. While I didn't do as well as I'd like, it was fun and the experience was worthwhile.

Patrick Donnelly
06-03-2008, 08:58 PM
Haven't finished reading this yet, but thanks in advance, Gant.

Derek Weaver
06-03-2008, 09:22 PM
Yes, this should be good TSC preparation, though I'd sub kettlebell drills for the gymnastics. I'd also enter the next TSC in the Fall to get the feel of it and see where you stand. If you're interested in competing, do it early and often. I entered the last TSC with only a few weeks of training and I'm glad I did, rather than wait. While I didn't do as well as I'd like, it was fun and the experience was worthwhile.

Steve, thanks for the heads up. I'll have to check out the next one in the fall. I need to compete soon, and the CF Games isn't gonna happen this year.

Did you follow any of the KB drills from Dragon Door or did you come up with your own?

If you don't mind, maybe we can discuss via PM so as not to hijack this thread?

Troy Archie
06-03-2008, 09:24 PM
•The slow lifts should start with 3x5 (including dips and pull-ups). Drop to 3x3 after 6 weeks or whenever the volume becomes too much. You may also want to mix in some 5x3, 5x2 or 7x1. It’s your program! Eventually you’ll almost exclusively be doing either 1) med volume/high intensity or 2) low volume/stupid intensity!


That's sets X reps right?

So when do we see a WOD by you? :)

Also, are the order of the exercises set in stone? Probably not. I see it's Oly before strength, which makes sense for technique.

Gant Grimes
06-03-2008, 10:14 PM
That's sets X reps right?

So when do we see a WOD by you? :)

Also, are the order of the exercises set in stone? Probably not. I see it's Oly before strength, which makes sense for technique.

Yes, sets x reps. I'm still traumatized from Greg's notation.

I'm doing something for somebody that might be filmed (I sound like Alston with his secret training). Other than that I doubt I'll ever make it to video.

The order of exercises is vital. You want speed, technique, and accuracy. You also want full use of your hips.

Explosive lifts >>> slow lifts >>> metcon

*In rare cases, I'll do metcon first. For instance, if Fran comes up, I'll do that first before doing ME front squats. It just works for me.

I prefer to have gymnastics movements at the beginning, but I have forgotten them too many times (and done them at the end) to suggest it's mandatory.

Donald Lee
06-04-2008, 01:21 AM
When you go medium intensity, do you up the volume? And, did you feel that the front lever progressions, squats, etc. provided enough abdominal training? I saw that you included one day of L-sits and some KB windmills.

Brandon Oto
06-04-2008, 10:01 AM
I'm really glad to see you feeling this stuff out, Gant. Between your program, Garrett's, folks like Brian D., and the stuff I've been playing with (basically periodizing individual cycles of focused work on weak areas), there's a lot of ground being covered for alternative ideas on the GPP front.

Kevin Perry
06-04-2008, 10:09 AM
This is some good stuff Gant.

As for the CF wods, are you just picking and choosing which ones fit your goals best? such as strength and power type wods over metcon?

Garrett Smith
06-04-2008, 01:36 PM
Brandon,
Good to see you posting here!

Gant Grimes
06-04-2008, 02:18 PM
When you go medium intensity, do you up the volume? And, did you feel that the front lever progressions, squats, etc. provided enough abdominal training? I saw that you included one day of L-sits and some KB windmills.

Not really, but you could. The intensity schedule is based on Rip's Practical Programming. I go heavy when possible.

Every exercise in the program requires and builds an iron trunk. I don't do anything extra other than the occasional overhead KB situps or GHDs in my metcons.

Gant Grimes
06-04-2008, 02:33 PM
Brandon,
Good to see you posting here!

Yes, welcome. This is a good forum for you.

Allen Yeh
06-04-2008, 03:18 PM
This is some solid stuff Gant. I 2nd or third the vote for an article.

Garrett Smith
06-04-2008, 06:09 PM
Yes, welcome. This is a good forum for you.

Actually, I'm surprised he didn't join us earlier.

Brandon, I always find your questions on the CF board poignant (even if only rhetorical) and your answers well-thought out, which will be appreciated here greatly.

Troy Archie
06-04-2008, 09:43 PM
Would you do any warm-up sets? Or would you say for the snatches start low and work up to a set or two of heavy singles?

What about the slow lifts? Rippetoe style warm-up sets to the working sets across?

Brandon Oto
06-05-2008, 05:59 AM
I guess my thought process was, "Do I really need another forum?" :p

I'll share my experiences with my program once it's gotten a little further; it's based on longer cycles than you two's so it'll take a while longer to really judge its effectiveness.

Gant Grimes
06-05-2008, 07:08 AM
Brandon, this place is different. It's not a CF forum, but there are a lot of people that utilize CF or some other GPP.

Troy, I do some shoulder mobility stuff, shoulder dislocates, and mess around on the rings. I do Burgener warmups on OLY lift days. I also start with an empty bar, without fail, every time.

Tom Rawls
06-05-2008, 10:07 AM
back to the bike--how often do you ride? how long?

I'm wondering how much the riding figures into into your fitness. The WOD-centric crowd doesn't have much time for longer duration activities--lots of frightening talk of catabolic horrors.

Steven Low
06-05-2008, 10:33 AM
back to the bike--how often do you ride? how long?

I'm wondering how much the riding figures into into your fitness. The WOD-centric crowd doesn't have much time for longer duration activities--lots of frightening talk of catabolic horrors.
lol, catabolic is overblown.

Everyday stress and worrying is a more potent at inducing a catabolic state than like jogging or biking for an hour.

Chuck Kechter
06-05-2008, 10:53 AM
Very good stuff Gant! Add my voice to those that would like an article!

Gant Grimes
06-05-2008, 12:36 PM
back to the bike--how often do you ride? how long?

I'm wondering how much the riding figures into into your fitness. The WOD-centric crowd doesn't have much time for longer duration activities--lots of frightening talk of catabolic horrors.

Not as often as I'd like. It's not as much a part of my fitness routine as it is my happiness routine. I like to be in the woods and part of nature, but I'm usually limited to less than a half hour a week on the concrete. But it's a lifestyle thing; I walk to a lot of places, I squat down more than normal people, I climb playground equipment and swim with my kids. I just try to move around (only doing the WOD is not part of a functional, active lifestyle).

Regardless, it was part of my routine before, during, and after my current program, so it shouldn't affect data.

Steven's right re: catabolic horrors. Ask Dean Karnazes or Joe Decker about their catabolic activities.

PS The 3/1 WOD-centric crowd is already on the catabolic path.

James Evans
06-06-2008, 04:32 AM
Not as often as I'd like. It's not as much a part of my fitness routine as it is my happiness routine. I like to be in the woods and part of nature, but I'm usually limited to less than a half hour a week on the concrete. But it's a lifestyle thing; I walk to a lot of places, I squat down more than normal people, I climb playground equipment and swim with my kids. I just try to move around (only doing the WOD is not part of a functional, active lifestyle).

Regardless, it was part of my routine before, during, and after my current program, so it shouldn't affect data.

Steven's right re: catabolic horrors. Ask Dean Karnazes or Joe Decker about their catabolic activities.

PS The 3/1 WOD-centric crowd is already on the catabolic path.


Gant,

Absolutely spot on. I was just thinking this earlier to today as I watched some guy, who probably has an expensive corporate gym membership, ride the escalator at the tube station.

Get out and walk. Take the stairs. Ditch the car. Mow the lawn. Play with your kids. Get some air. Hell, even if you smoke, at least walk to the shop to buy the smokes.

Don't just obsess about Fran coming around every 6 weeks.

Gant Grimes
06-06-2008, 06:56 AM
James, there was a thread on the CF forums awhile back asking whether CFers "play enough." I believe the original poster was a pretty decent CFer but got gassed playing flag football with his friends. That should never happen.

Leo Soubbotine
06-06-2008, 11:59 AM
Gant - I actually want to play with my brother - he's now in Virginia and coming to Fla in 2-6 weeks. He's 6'8 or 6'9 and played basketball in Russia for the last couple of years (he's 21). I wonder if all my Cf'ing will make sure I have enough gas and muscle in the tank to outrun him 1-on-1.

Kevin Perry
06-06-2008, 12:28 PM
thats odd. When I was crossfitting 3 on 1 off last year I was also doing 2-3 days a week of BJJ and never ran out of gas. But now being at a different weight and comming back onto CF im wondering the same thing.

Troy Archie
06-06-2008, 01:12 PM
•Squat low for training. If you’re a guy, try to tea-bag the platform. You’ll be amazed how much you’ll be able to lift in a CFT when you only squat to regulation depth.


Do you mean squat low butt-wise with a high-bar position or squat with a low-bar position?

From what I've seen in your journal you walked into this program after:
1) Obtaining a great strength base
2) Obtained a solid conditioning and lactic-threshold base via CF, in which you lost strength
3) Played around and arrived to where you're at now.
Correct?

So my question is; can you obtain that solid conditioning and lactic-threshold level that you already obtained via CF and held onto through this program? You're conditioning and WOD times have gone up so I assume it's safe to say yes but again you had a base. What about the lower/unconditioned?

David Stout
06-06-2008, 01:12 PM
PS The 3/1 WOD-centric crowd is already on the catabolic path.

That pretty sums up my experience after following (attempting to follow) that protocol for the past year and a half. It led to many plateaus, a stagnant CF Total, and few PRs. Not to mention recovery issues and little or no motivation to exert myself in sport (jiu-jitsu). It was pretty hard physically and (honestly) emotionally.

This is what I like about your thoughts Mr. Grimes and ESPECIALLY the recent ME Blackbox article in Performance Menu Issue 41 - June 2008 (http://performancemenu.com/zen/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_7_12&products_id).

Your postings and Coach Rutherford's work have helped to move me towards a more balanced training approach (IMO) and ulitmately a more balanced lifestyle.

Many thanks to you both and to Greg Everett for his efforts at PM.

Respectfully,

David Stout

Gant Grimes
06-06-2008, 01:48 PM
Do you mean squat low butt-wise with a high-bar position or squat with a low-bar position?

From what I've seen in your journal you walked into this program after:
1) Obtaining a great strength base
2) Obtained a solid conditioning and lactic-threshold base via CF, in which you lost strength
3) Played around and arrived to where you're at now.
Correct?

So my question is; can you obtain that solid conditioning and lactic-threshold level that you already obtained via CF and held onto through this program? You're conditioning and WOD times have gone up so I assume it's safe to say yes but again you had a base. What about the lower/unconditioned?

Whatever blows your hair back. Rip and Greg each wrote a treatise on this in the last month. Pick the one that suits your needs. Please note that the ease of tea-bagging is directly proportional to bar position.

1. I'd say a good strength base.
2. Yes.
3. Pretty much.

Time will tell. The early returns indicate that yes, shorter, less frequent metcons, combined with and complementary to a program of gym/OLY/pwr can give you (me, at least) a nice conditioning/lactic-threshold.

In six months, we'll have a better idea of how much metcon is enough.

Gant Grimes
06-06-2008, 01:56 PM
That pretty sums up my experience after following (attempting to follow) that protocol for the past year and a half. It led to many plateaus, a stagnant CF Total, and few PRs. Not to mention recovery issues and little or no motivation to exert myself in sport (jiu-jitsu). It was pretty hard physically and (honestly) emotionally.

This is what I like about your thoughts Mr. Grimes and ESPECIALLY the recent ME Blackbox article in Performance Menu Issue 41 - June 2008 (http://performancemenu.com/zen/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_7_12&products_id).

Your postings and Coach Rutherford's work have helped to move me towards a more balanced training approach (IMO) and ulitmately a more balanced lifestyle.

Many thanks to you both and to Greg Everett for his efforts at PM.

Respectfully,

David Stout

Thanks, David. There are many teachers here and much to be thankful for. I have borrowed heavily from several people in designing this. Building on SS and CF, Coach Rut's original MEBB article is what first set me down this path, followed by the CA WOD. And it's nice to have Rip around to bounce ideas off of (he's been very supportive of this and not surprised by the results).

The final push was reading the goals of the people on the PM forums. When I started reading MOD's and Dr. G's stuff, I realized that personal happiness was as much (for me, more) a part of personal fitness than beating other people, lifting more weight, and smashing old PRs. Once I focused on the former, I accomplished the latter.

Be happy.

Garrett Smith
06-06-2008, 02:39 PM
Maybe we should change the "men will die for points" to "people can exercise to be happy and injury-free" or something like that...

Mike ODonnell
06-06-2008, 02:41 PM
Gread thread.....this latest post at MDA really compliments it well too....
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/definitive-guide-primal-blueprint/

Like said by Gant...it's about the lifestyle now for me...and I so much enjoy just going to "play" with occasional workouts centered around it. Once I was able to fine tune IF and eating around it....amazing results in energy, performance and losing body fat. I need more "play time" and less intense workouts to achieve the lower body fat (as I have that stubborn fat from probably those years of beer drinking in college). Super intense compound sets over and over just depleted me, made me run down, injury prone and then led to physical and mental burnout. I've always stalled (physically and mentally in the past) at trying to drop below 10-8% BF....but now with more focus on play time and walking/hiking while fasted...the results are easier to accomplish...and no burnout factor, just an enjoyable one as I am just living day by day....and in no rush to get 6% BF....as that will come soon enough if I do the right things daily.

Younger years...intense focus on training...less on diet...going hardcore too often....lead to burnout...injuries...and a level of depression....

Now...focus on listening to my body for food and activity/recovery....enjoying slower intensity "play"....lifting heavy stuff (more full body movements)....never being in a gym....having more energy....not obsessing over needing protein shakes.....less injuries....increasing daily happiness and focus in life.....sounds all good to me.

Everyone want to get somewhere...and quick....when you ask the people with the best results and at the top of their game what tricks they used to get there...they probably just tell you....they just did what they needed to do daily and was in it for the lifestyle (there was no shortcuts). Time can fly...and results can come before you even know it. So mine as well enjoy it every moment. The winners will win anyways....because they perform at peak capacity when it counts (aka being in the zone...when the body takes over..and the ego is quiet)....not because they want to beat someone else and be better.

Funny.....it reminds me of the Peppi Le Peui cartoon....the cat with the white stripe running full speed from the skunk....all stressed out...and Peppi....just popping along at his pace and smiling.....with the occasional burst of speed and wham..and he always caught up to the cat....who was tired and gave up.....although I like to think I smell better than Peppi....

Howard Wilcox
06-06-2008, 04:26 PM
.....although I like to think I smell better than Peppi....

Unless you are french it shouldn't be a problem. :D


I didn't realize until I was in my 30s the significance of Peppi being french and stinking. Then I laughed and laughed...


howard

Joe Hart
06-06-2008, 08:35 PM
Gant,

In the warm up section it says "rings x2". What would that be?

Thanks

Tom Rawls
06-07-2008, 05:07 AM
Maybe we should change the "men will die for points" to "people can exercise to be happy and injury-free" or something like that...

This isn't going to turn into a yoga forum is it?

Feelings are for girls, and harmony is for songwriters.

If you're injury-free, you're not trying hard enough.

Mike ODonnell
06-07-2008, 07:09 AM
This isn't going to turn into a yoga forum is it?

Feelings are for girls, and harmony is for songwriters.

If you're injury-free, you're not trying hard enough.

I sure as hell hope not....I don't hug guys....unless it's St Patty's Day.

I think there is a difference between injury free from training....and sport/play....I don't want my exercise/training to injure me....as I do enough crashing my mountain bike and into the boards playing hockey. Then again....the more I crash the better I get at it.

Arien Malec
06-07-2008, 04:41 PM
Just noticed, on re-reading this month's PMenu (which is, BTW, excellent), that Coach Rut's new template for MEBB is quite similar to the GG template:

New MEBB template:

1) W/U
2) ME
3) Short strength-biased metcon (<10 mins)
4) p-chain movement

Hybrid/GG template:

1) W/U
2) Gymnastics progression
3) ME/DE
4) Short strength biased metcon (< 10 mins)
4) P-Chain movement

Kevin Perry
06-07-2008, 07:04 PM
Could there be benefits if gymnastics progressions were mixed into the warm-up? I've noticed great strength increases this way when I put more warm-up focus into gymnastics styled training then follow up with ME and then the strength based metcon as I did today.

Derek Weaver
06-07-2008, 08:43 PM
Kevin,
I'd say you answered your own question.

I would figure that as long as you are priming your body properly, you can do whatever it takes to get you ready.

I personally do a mix of dead hang pull ups, l-sits to tuck planche to push up on the parallettes, mixed with squats and finished off with a short, light set of KB swings to get it all working together.

Gant Grimes
06-07-2008, 09:04 PM
Joe, "rings x 2" means 2 sets of that progression. I do however many reps I feel like doing. And that's not very many. Outside of the metcons, I do less than 50 pullups, pushups, and squats per week (and zero situps).

This isn't going to turn into a yoga forum is it?

Feelings are for girls, and harmony is for songwriters.

If you're injury-free, you're not trying hard enough.

Yoga involves stretching, so no.

I was referring to enoying the workout. Just because I'm happy doesn't mean I have feelings for you clowns.

I have enough old injuries popping up that I don't want to create new ones. I have finally learned that injuries have less to do with intensity than poor judgment.

Tirzah Harper
06-09-2008, 11:55 AM
How long do these workouts take, on average?
I ask because I don't usually EVER have more than an hour at the gym once I park my car. And I'm very interested in the novice program.

If you need to tell me to just go try it myself and find out, now, that's cool. I'm just intending to go talk to my CF affiliate owner about doing this program, and don't want to waste his time if it's, say, an hour and a half or so per day.

Thanks!

Garrett Smith
06-09-2008, 02:29 PM
This isn't going to turn into a yoga forum is it?

:) No. Not unless yoga involves gymnastics and barbells, which I'm yet to see.

If you're injury-free, you're not trying hard enough.

I have finally learned that injuries have less to do with intensity than poor judgment.

I stand behind the wisdom of Mr. Grimes. Injuries / trying too hard / poor judgement are not necessary to achieve what I consider to be fitness.

Yoga involves stretching, so no.

I would attribute a portion of my recent improvement in fitness to an increased time spent in flexibility work, yoga and stretching.

I was referring to enjoying the workout. Just because I'm happy doesn't mean I have feelings for you clowns.

I have enough old injuries popping up that I don't want to create new ones.

Being that proper exercise is the greatest "anti-depressant" or "pro-happy" medicine ever known, I'll enjoy that effect as much as I can. On that note, training injuries (or any other acquired injury or pain) is one of the most depressing things around. I know which one I want to cultivate. I have my own old injuries (mainly one old one) that I aggravate with poor training judgement.

:)

Garrett Smith
06-09-2008, 03:03 PM
Tirzah,
I'm getting my entire workouts in definitely less than 90 minutes, most often in 75 min., and in 60 minutes if necessary. A variation on this plan is definitely do-able in an hour, especially if one is starting at the very basic gymnastics stuff.

Peter Dell'Orto
06-09-2008, 05:40 PM
Gant,

Very interesting post. It encouraged me to de-lurk and register so I could comment. I was one of the people who jumped in on your 12-week Tabata project over on the CF forums. Sadly I got derailed by injury* but subsequently I've included Tabata exercises in my training schedule because of the great benefits I saw.

I'm really intrigued by this hybrid program. I've done a lot of combined ME + Metcon days thanks to Coach Rut's blog and his MEBB templates. I found I really benefit the most on those. I don't grind myself into the dirt as much as pure metcons did, and I get a lot more overall benefits from including strength work. Your gymnastics + ME + metcon layout is really cool. I hope you do turn it into an article.

Peter V. Dell'Orto


* I was doing Tabata dips, and found out that dips + my shoulder impingement = injury time off. The Tabata once-a-week approach improved my pushup and V-Ups numbers nicely, though, which was really worth the work.

Garrett Smith
06-09-2008, 06:24 PM
On the Tabata note, I think there is a lot of value there from Gant's prior project. I'm thinking that my 1-2 short metcons that I'll be adding on Mondays and/or Tuesdays will likely be 2 6-round Tabatas (an initial thought was pull-ups and squats one day, push-ups and V-snaps the next, thanks for bringing that up Peter!). Then I can't do too much *and* I'm doing a program that has already been shown to improve general metcon numbers. Can't beat that!

Peter Dell'Orto
06-09-2008, 10:26 PM
You're welcome. I chose my exercises based on what I can do in my apartment, and situp rash is too nasty so I prefer V-Ups.

I've been using 4-round Tabatas for some of my exercises. Gant suggested in his Tabata Project thread that 6 rounds was enough because the reps taper off if you "sell out" on the reps. I noticed on pushups I'd taper off around round 4 or 5, while I could go 8 rounds on V-ups and squats with only a 1 rep variation per round, if that. For pushups with was like X reps, (0.5)*X, 0.33*X, 0.25*X, 0.25*X, etc. so the last rounds were more like lying on the floor listening to the round timer instead of a workout. So I cut those rounds. Maybe less metcon, I figured, but I'd keep the part where I saw progress.

So I tried 4-round Tabatas recently. It's taxing enough to get me going, intense enough to improve my performance for the exercise I use, and yet short enough that I'm not fatigued. So I can use them as much for a warmup or final challenge instead of a full workout. Bang out 4 rounds of pushups with my feet elevated, they get to work on whatever else I'm doing in that workout. If I do a "full" Tabata I go for 6 or 8 rounds, but the short-and-sweet ones I use to improve my speed and efficiency.


***

Back on the main topic, I noticed the program suggests that you DL every week, but I noticed a post by Gant saying DLing every week wore on him. Me too...I've burned myself twice pushing DLs too hard in my programs. How often do you rotate in variations? Every week, do a different kind of pull? Alternate higher volume or maximum effort work with lower volume or speed work?

I've noticed I do better physically when I pull less often and mix in variations, and I get hurt if I try to DL heavy more than a couple weeks in a row.

Thanks!

Garrett Smith
06-10-2008, 08:17 AM
I believe Gant was subbing in rack pulls and/or halting DLs.

I personally have been alternating in my 2x/week SS-inspired workouts:
Normal DLs 1set x 5reps -> Cleans 3x5 -> Sumo DLs 1x5 -> Power Cleans 3x5

So I'm doing a DL variation 1x/week, clean variation 1x/week, each individual variation once every two weeks.

Kevin Perry
06-10-2008, 09:15 AM
i've actually noticed big strength increases in Power Cleaning and Cleans on a more regular basis 2-3x per week. Feels good too.

Garrett Smith
06-10-2008, 10:55 AM
4 round Tabatas sound even better. I'm going to break into them progressively so I won't have excessive soreness screw up my gymnastics time...

On another note:

I last set a PR on my C&J on 1/3/08 when I was doing the CA WODs faithfully. Life stuff happened, so I stopped most focused OL training around 3/15/08. Been doing prototype/R&D versions of my "hybrid" training up until the present.

The only OL that has been in my program on any kind of regular basis since then has been my SS-inspired cleans & power cleans once a week, as well as my extended modified OL warmups (done with an empty bar at most).

I set a PR in C&J at the PMenu OL seminar this last weekend, improving from 97.5kg to 105kg (+7.5kg, not the 8.5kg I had thought previously, oops).

In training, my pulls had been mostly limited to cleans and deads in sets of 5, my overhead work has been mainly handstands, HSPUs, and some minor BB pressing and metcon DB pressing.

The bar came off the ground better than I expected, and my jerk felt really stable (it actually felt like the easiest part). That's all after 2 full days of many reps with typically anywhere from 45-75# in the OL drills and full lifts. To say I was surprised that a PR happened would be an understatement.

This stuff works.

Troy Archie
06-10-2008, 08:53 PM
In regards to your tabata experiences, would you only do one exercise per session or would you do 4 like "Tabata Something Else" but with only 4 intervals per exercise?

Derek Weaver
06-10-2008, 11:21 PM
I'm not trying to come off as a jerk, but am I the only one who doesn't have a problem with more than 1x5 DL's even at a 5rm weight?

If I were constantly pulling 5x5 I'd surely break down, but at this point, I am trying to make room for a little more deadlifting. Maybe a light and a heavy day. I have had a short discussion on tailoring something like this for a TSC, and thus want to bring my DL up.

Leo Soubbotine
06-11-2008, 05:21 AM
Derek - how heavy are you pulling and how much do you weigh?

Peter Dell'Orto
06-11-2008, 05:24 AM
In regards to your tabata experiences, would you only do one exercise per session or would you do 4 like "Tabata Something Else" but with only 4 intervals per exercise?

I do one or two exercises with the 4-rounds, going all-out to try to up the rep counts. I'll do it as a component of a larger workout. If I do it as a full metcon/stand-alone workout I do 3-4 exercises for 6-8 rounds and pace the reps with a goal of more total reps, not max per round.

John Alston
06-11-2008, 05:58 AM
I'm not trying to come off as a jerk, but am I the only one who doesn't have a problem with more than 1x5 DL's even at a 5rm weight?

If I were constantly pulling 5x5 I'd surely break down, but at this point, I am trying to make room for a little more deadlifting. Maybe a light and a heavy day. I have had a short discussion on tailoring something like this for a TSC, and thus want to bring my DL up.

If you do a 5x5 you shouldn't do a 5rm. It's pretty nearly impossible to do so, by definition of a 5rm.

Brandon Oto
06-11-2008, 09:21 AM
Deadlifts get harder and harder to recover from (and hence usually want less and less volume, up to the elite point where you're maybe truly deadlifting almost never) the stronger you get and the heavier you're pulling.

Edit: By the way, I hope we all keep plugging away with this stuff, and anyone interested in trying something similar has a go too. Maybe in a while we can all pool our findings together, see what worked and what doesn't, and present a collected set of templates for alternative metcon-diminished GPP programs in the PM Journal or wherever.

Dave Van Skike
06-11-2008, 10:12 AM
I'm not trying to come off as a jerk, but am I the only one who doesn't have a problem with more than 1x5 DL's even at a 5rm weight?

If I were constantly pulling 5x5 I'd surely break down, but at this point, I am trying to make room for a little more deadlifting. Maybe a light and a heavy day. I have had a short discussion on tailoring something like this for a TSC, and thus want to bring my DL up.


On deadlift days, (basically every other saturday) we pull 2-3 sets of 5 working up to a 80-85% set of 5 which is close to a 5RM except you're fatigued so knock off 3% to 5%. Then we do extended deadlifts for sets of 5 or pull from blocks of varying heights. DL day amounts to 5 to 8 sets of heavy deadlifts. we follow this with rows, DB or BB. We'll do this for a week or two and then work down the reps, triple, doubles, until we're working up to a max single.

On non-Deadlift saturdays it's tire flips for reps, zercher squats and lots of upper back work, pull-ups, pulldowns, rows and shrugs.

So..sure, it's possible to do more than 1x5..but you need to work it carefully.

Garrett Smith
06-11-2008, 10:55 AM
I've been trying to simplify these ideas/concepts in my head for the easiest understanding for myself (and especially if I'm going to explain it to others).

Basically, it is coming down to using the various exercise tools in their best applications.

For building plain lower body and posterior chain strength, there's low rep slow lifts.

For taking that strength and turning it into power, there's the OLs done in their favored low rep ranges.

For upper body strength, gymnastics training done in low rep ranges.

For improving work capacity and general ability to tolerate training discomfort, there is kettlebell training done in the GS style.

If one wants to do strongman stuff, do it using the proven training regimens.

For metcon, Tabatas of various calisthenics, chosen based on one's strength level and goals/weaknesses. Also, "bike, run, swim, row, hard and fast" [and SHORT]. If Tabatas and HIIT have been proven to work well for both aerobic and anaerobic purposes while not draining the trainee, why can't they be made the lion's share of metcon training? I can't see why not.

LSD training, IMO, sucks in general / entails excessive mechanical wear / is not healthy due to increased oxidation & inhalation of pollution / is boring. I do not see it adding much to health nor the fitness I'm interested in. IMO dump it unless it is a part of your sport. I am of the mind that many recent CF WODs are absolutely getting into LSD territory once they are lasting over 30 minutes. Chippers and heroes brutalize the adrenals.

Right tool for the right job, I say. Mixing and matching creates its own kind of fitness, absolutely (the question is, where do diminishing returns begin from mixing too much?). It also creates its own problems and injuries due to trying to use a tool for the wrong job. It would seem that combining modalities while utilizing them in their proper/intended way, such as in hybrid programming, is resulting indirectly in improved work capacity when tested together a la CF metcon WODs.

I guess the big question is whether or not metcon work capacity is something that should be trained, or merely tested occasionally to gauge progress. I'm leaning toward the latter.

Just thoughts...feel free to comment!

David Stout
06-11-2008, 11:18 AM
I guess the big question is whether or not metcon work capacity is something that should be trained, or merely tested occasionally to gauge progress. I'm leaning toward the latter.

Just thoughts...feel free to comment!

I think that "metcon training" has its place still, just not the priority that some have given it.

I am reading and dissecting this book (it was actually been mentioned on this forum a while back) called Wrestling Physical Conditioning Encyclopedia by John Jesse that is from 1974.

What's cool about the book is that he's included huge amounts of training modalities to opt from: barbells, dumbells, swingbells (a.k.a kettlebells), sandbags, gymnastics (holds, bodyweight, rings, etc.), etc. etc.

In the book he discusses the need for what he calls "total body strength." He notes:

What is meant by total body strength? This term applies to all forms of strength including isometric (static) strength, explosive strength (as in the Snatch), slow dynamic strength as in a max effort shoulder press or the effort required to gradually for an opponents shoulders to the mat for a pin.

All types of total body strength are required by the wrestler. How much though? Science cannot answer the question, other than to say no athletic activity in itself develops the level of strength required to meet and overcome the emergency situations that arise in competition.

On the topic of "endurance" he delineates it into two categories: of general (circulo-respiratory) and muscular (local) endurance. My notes from this section:

Success in wrestling requires high levels of general (circulo-respiratory) and muscular (local) endurance.

Strength endurance, as mentioned earlier, is the conditioning most overlooked by wrestlers.

Strength endurance training programs develop the wrestlers ability to tolerate oxygen debt (anaerobic endurance, lactate threshold, etc) and vastly improve the all important psychological quality, the ďwill to win.Ē

What's more is that he also makes a clear place in his programming for Flexibility and Agility work which are grossly overlooked by a large number of folks (IMO).

Sorry if that strayed off topic but I thought it was sooo cool to see all of this information in a book from the 70's.

Thanks,
David

Arien Malec
06-11-2008, 12:44 PM
I guess the big question is whether or not metcon work capacity is something that should be trained, or merely tested occasionally to gauge progress. I'm leaning toward the latter.

Nice post. I've got some follow-up questions on the quoted material, which I don't understand. Doing short metcons or GS-type KB work is training metcon work capacity, no? If I rotate a 5-minute KB snatch session into my metcon cycle, and I improve over time the number of snatches in that 5 minutes, I've increased metcon work capacity, no?

Or do you mean specifically training/testing endurance work capacity? (time in a 5/10K run/row, long metcon, etc.)

Derek Weaver
06-11-2008, 12:56 PM
On deadlift days, (basically every other saturday) we pull 2-3 sets of 5 working up to a 80-85% set of 5 which is close to a 5RM except you're fatigued so knock off 3% to 5%. Then we do extended deadlifts for sets of 5 or pull from blocks of varying heights. DL day amounts to 5 to 8 sets of heavy deadlifts. we follow this with rows, DB or BB. We'll do this for a week or two and then work down the reps, triple, doubles, until we're working up to a max single.

On non-Deadlift saturdays it's tire flips for reps, zercher squats and lots of upper back work, pull-ups, pulldowns, rows and shrugs.

So..sure, it's possible to do more than 1x5..but you need to work it carefully.

Dave,
Thanks for this post here. This is really I guess what I was trying to get at, but didn't manage to communicate it.

This thread is easily the best I've seen on any forum in a very long time, by the way.

Brandon Oto
06-11-2008, 01:21 PM
If I rotate a 5-minute KB snatch session into my metcon cycle, and I improve over time the number of snatches in that 5 minutes, I've increased metcon work capacity, no?

Yeah, but if that's all you do, it's probably mostly KB snatch work capacity. The CF model of variety is helpful here.

Arien Malec
06-11-2008, 01:43 PM
Yeah, but if that's all you do, it's probably mostly KB snatch work capacity. The CF model of variety is helpful here.

The GS folks claim significant benefits from GS work across multiple aspects of fitness, but that's off topic (but perhaps only slightly).

My basic point was that "training metcon work capacity" is something that is built into doing short, intense metcons, so I was trying to understand what Garrett was saying in questioning whether metcon work capacity should be trained.

I guess my re-formulation of what I understand to be Garrett's question would be: "Glassman talks about increasing work capacity across broad time and modal domains -- the question is whether or not that requires training across broad time and modal domains"

Garrett Smith
06-11-2008, 02:08 PM
Nice post. I've got some follow-up questions on the quoted material, which I don't understand. Doing short metcons or GS-type KB work is training metcon work capacity, no? If I rotate a 5-minute KB snatch session into my metcon cycle, and I improve over time the number of snatches in that 5 minutes, I've increased metcon work capacity, no?

Or do you mean specifically training/testing endurance work capacity? (time in a 5/10K run/row, long metcon, etc.)

1st question: Yes. I believe the main benefit of the short metcons is in keeping those metabolic pathways active, so that "testing" metcons are still do-able and do not cause extreme soreness. They are also fun in and of themselves, one of the reasons many are attracted to CF in the first place.

2nd question: Yes, particularly as related to work capacity in KB lifting, possibly towards other types of activities as well (I'd guess particularly those that are posterior-chain or press/jerk-related). How much one believes in the WTH transference effects of KBs is up to them.

3rd question: I wasn't specifically referring to endurance/LSD work capacity, however, noting that the hybrid programming is improving markers across the board one could guess that endurance capacity would be improved to some extent (along the lines of transference of HIIT and Tabata training to LSD).

Glad you liked the post.

Edit/add: Your re-formulation of my question is exactly the point I'm trying to get at. The Donny Shankle Grace transference would show that high strength/power can easily transfer to different time domains. Do these have to be trained or is more strength/power enough?

For example, Josh Everett didn't have years of training in CF and pretty much walked in and was a CF monster. He was strong and powerful when he came into it. I'm going to guess that AFT and OPT were as well. Strength and power take time and attention to build, endurance is so easy that fat people can do Ironmans, and metcon ability seems to be a derivative expression of strength and power that is easily built through specific training (or upregulating certain metabolic pathways), assuming a certain strength/power base.

Dave Van Skike
06-11-2008, 03:10 PM
Dave,
Thanks for this post here. This is really I guess what I was trying to get at, but didn't manage to communicate it.

This thread is easily the best I've seen on any forum in a very long time, by the way.


hope it was helpful. The one true thing I've learned is that the "duality of the Deadlift":

Deadlifts take a long time to recover from v. highish volume deadlift training can be very effective.

Peter Dell'Orto
06-11-2008, 03:39 PM
I guess my re-formulation of what I understand to be Garrett's question would be: "Glassman talks about increasing work capacity across broad time and modal domains -- the question is whether or not that requires training across broad time and modal domains"

That's an excellent question.

If "CF is your sport" I'm not sure it's such an important question. But if you are exercising in order to improve your strength, fitness, work capacity, etc. for another sport, you don't want your training to eat into the sport. Even if CF is your sport, if you can improve your work capacity and up your times better with a different program layout...

In my experience, the short, hard metcons gave me improved work capacity, but the longer marathon ones ate into my MMA training time. So even if they were useful, they felt like a net negative.

Garrett Smith
06-11-2008, 04:02 PM
Another benefit to "non-random", focused, progressive training is that it allows for form to be worked on under heavy weights on a more consistent basis. You know, like "practice"...

Heavy squatting, done maybe 1 or 2 times a month, does not a proficient heavy squatter make. Unless they were already a good squatter pre-random-GPP (see Josh Everett example above).

Derek Weaver
06-11-2008, 05:12 PM
Good points from Peter and Dr. G.

I think that a lot of people have good examples of losing strength in exchange either for or because of the longer duration metcon.

Dave,
Yes it helped. Once I completely work out my own programming that I'll be using to train for a TSC I'll post it up here to get it critiqued. Right now I am trying to figure out scheduling and overall training volume.

If only I had a place for a really big freakin' tire...

Steven Low
06-11-2008, 05:31 PM
I'm pretty sure that if you work up to a 2x bodyweight dip and pullup for example you should be able to do 30 MUs near 3-4 minutes if not better.

Same is true with Grace and a strong C&J.

The endurance needed to perform these even faster obviously needs to be trained for maybe a couple of weeks.... but it's obviously going to take a lot longer to build such strength/power.

-------

In any case about having to do broad time and modal domains for broad time and modal domain benefit... I think it depends on your exercise selection and programming. Well, in terms of exercises GHD situps might not transfer as well, but something like knees to elbows probably has a more "inherent" athletic benefit. Just like C&J/snatch should have a benefit on DLs/squats/press/OHS/etc. And, as far as programming goes, depends on the effort/intensity you can put into said movements over certain amounts of time, heh.

Would be an interesting experiment to do... Something like JUST oly + couple push & pull barbell/gymnastics exercises done with strength and short metcons. Then see how something like Cindy may or may not improve.

Peter Dell'Orto
06-12-2008, 06:43 AM
Another benefit to "non-random", focused, progressive training is that it allows for form to be worked on under heavy weights on a more consistent basis. You know, like "practice"...

I can't claim to be very strong, but I know what works for me. I've found I make better progress - in metcons, in strength, in endurance, etc. - if I have both a non-random progressive training element and more varied training element. The scheduled, progressive element allows me to optimally schedule my workouts so I get enough time under the bar doing the lifts I feel I need. The non-scheduled elements let me cover the "everything else" that doesn't fit, from doing CF metcons to extra ME work, technique work, rehab movements, etc.

So currently I'm breaking up my training time between two full-body workouts done in a more traditional cyclical fashion, and two-three other days that mix ME work, metcon, endurance, strongman training (er, weakman training in my case), in whatever doses seem appropriate. I know that works for me, and Gant's templates are going to influence how I structure those days.

Like I said, I'm not some metcon monster and I'm particularly strong, but I can see from my own logs that I respond better to some structure and mixed ME/metcon than I do to metcon-heavy, constantly-varied training.

Plus it means less substitutions for lack of equipment. :)

Peter Dell'Orto
06-12-2008, 06:46 AM
Good points from Peter and Dr. G.

Good company to get lumped in with, I tell you.

I'm glad I've been able to usefully contribute to this thread. By the way, I posted a link to it over at the EXRX forums, because I knew some folks there would find this really useful.

If only I had a place for a really big freakin' tire...

I had to make do with a couple small tires:

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b287/pdellorto/Shooto/Workout/strongman007s.jpg

All I can do is drag them, but 20kg is bad enough to sprint with. And the little kids in the neighborhood tend to jump on it while I'm dragging it for bonus weight.

David Stout
06-12-2008, 08:02 AM
For example, Josh Everett didn't have years of training in CF and pretty much walked in and was a CF monster. He was strong and powerful when he came into it. I'm going to guess that AFT and OPT were as well.

According to CFJ #60:

Prior to starting CrossFit, Marshall trained with isolation movements and traditional resistance training with an occasional functional movement thrown in. Fitzgerald trained with a mixture of Westside, Poliquin split, and strongman work, along with sprinting and running.

Dave Van Skike
06-12-2008, 10:36 AM
If only I had a place for a really big freakin' tire...


If you get a big enough one, you can put it wherever you want. most folks won't even try to move it.

Anton Emery
06-12-2008, 02:53 PM
Really enjoying reading this thread. I have been trying to take some ideas from it and put together a program that will still leave me with ample energy and strength for BJJ.


Anton

Derek Weaver
06-12-2008, 03:08 PM
If you get a big enough one, you can put it wherever you want. most folks won't even try to move it.

That's a good point. I'll have to do some looking.

Still formulating my own hybrid program. Trying to figure the happy medium with KB drills, short metcon and weight lifting... looks like the metcon is going to get cut (it has been under 5 minutes both occurances this week though.)

I'll post it in a training log once I get the kinks worked out.

James Evans
06-13-2008, 03:04 AM
Strength and power take time and attention to build, endurance is so easy that fat people can do Ironmans, and metcon ability seems to be a derivative expression of strength and power that is easily built through specific training (or upregulating certain metabolic pathways), assuming a certain strength/power base.

Dr G, although I totally understand the point you are making I'm not got going to let that pass. Please qualify that statement.

James Evans
06-13-2008, 05:23 AM
I started to write this earlier in the week but I went away and gave it a little more thought. In the context of what is being discussed here I wondered how many of you were familiar with the templates laid down by Ross Enamait in Infinite Intensity and Never Gymless (which is primarily bodyweight focused)* and how they would fit this hybrid model. I've lent my copy of II to someone but I had a quick flick through NG to refresh my memory.

Basically you employ a 5 day cycle:

Day 1: Conditioning

Day 2: Maximal Strength/Core work

Day 3: Conditioning

Day 4: Explosive Strength/Core work

Day 5: Rest

Using a mixture of the methods from both books we have a pool of equipment and exercises that include DBs, medballs, bands, weight vests, sandbags, rings, kegs, db clean and presses, db snatches, swings, burpees, push up variations (including handstand), pull up variations (including rope climbs), plyos, glute ham raises, muscle ups, jumprope, sprints, truck pushes, sledgehammers, tabatas etc.

Adding to Ross' low tech approach tack in kettlebells, barbells, ergos, deadlifts, bench presses, oly lifts and gymnastic moves. As with CrossFit we have a wide spectrum of means available to us.

Taking the plan from NG (II is a little different) the split between Day 1 and Day 3 is circuit based work for Day 1 eg: 6 rounds of 20 push ups, 30 squats, 40 swings and something based around running (or rowing or jump rope) for Day 3 such as 6 rounds of run 400m, 20 ball slams, rest 60 secs.

Day 2 could be a couple of exercises, say 5x5 bench, weighted pullups

Day 3 again a couple of exercises, clean and jerks, muscle ups for example

Ross is also a keen proponent of isometrics but I do not have enough familiarity with this to comment.

Couple of things to be emphasised:

1. This is aimed primarily at combat athletes that will have a high demand on their time from the actual practice of their chosen sport. It doesn't really matter if you can deadlift 3x bw as a boxer if you can't throw a punch. Manage your time, don't trash yourself, work on your weaknesses. But this could quickly apply to the father of three, the busy doctor etc. When can you do this training and how does it impact on the rest of your life?

2. No one tool or method is king.

3. Variety. Mix it all up.

4. Intensity. Go hard, go fast. More is not better. The conditioning stuff should take 15 mins max. This, I know, is more than Gant is shooting for. I did some maths on some of these sessions and they were over in 5 mins. But like a nasty tabata set it doesn't feel like it at the time.

5. If you insist on running (ie more than 400s, 800s) run fast).

6. Stick in mini workouts where you can if you want to work on skills, bring up your pull up numbers etc.

Now, I don't think there is anything revolutionary here, certainly not for the readers of this forum, but it's probably complete iconoclasm for the average gymgoer or fitness enthusiast. I like the brevity of the approach. I can never get into an extended Starting Strength style cycle because my work hours are erratic, much to my frustration but a few top end effort strength and power moves interspersed with some conditioning through the week works well for me. And I don't need to train like I'm building up to a World Cup Final against the All Blacks anymore. I want to continue to develop my strength through my 30s and beyond but also ride my mountain bike, climb mountains, run when I want to, control my weight, all that kind of shit. What's great about Gant's experiment is that it worked and he set PRs.

Ross, who I think is a little younger than myself and Gant (Gant your 34 aren't you?), says he can't remember the last time he was injured and he extends his training to many days on end without rest. But don't take this to mean that he slams his body every time he trains. Not every session needs to be a quest for a PR and although I hate doing it there are times when if I'm not feeling the love, I walk away. That's an important distinction mind, not feeling the love is different to not being prepared to suck it up.

Anyway, I guess this could be seen as kind of an ME Black Box approach. It's certainly a bit different to some of the periodization methods Ross wrote about in his earlier work (Month 1 - Max strength, Month 2 - introduce plyo work, Month 3 - Combine strength and plyo work in complex training - would love to see an article on complex training in PM - reset, repeat) and he now believes in developing a number of qualities simultaneously. And hell, will you look at the man...

So, any thoughts?

*PS if you don't own his books and dvd I highly recommend that you buy them.

David Stout
06-13-2008, 06:43 AM
I started to write this earlier in the week but I went away and gave it a little more thought. In the context of what is being discussed here I wondered how many of you were familiar with the templates laid down by Ross Enamait in Infinite Intensity and Never Gymless (which is primarily bodyweight focused)* and how they would fit this hybrid model. I've lent my copy of II to someone but I had a quick flick through NG to refresh my memory.

Basically you employ a 5 day cycle:

Day 1: Conditioning

Day 2: Maximal Strength/Core work

Day 3: Conditioning

Day 4: Explosive Strength/Core work

Day 5: Rest

Using a mixture of the methods from both books we have a pool of equipment and exercises that include DBs, medballs, bands, weight vests, sandbags, rings, kegs, db clean and presses, db snatches, swings, burpees, push up variations (including handstand), pull up variations (including rope climbs), plyos, glute ham raises, muscle ups, jumprope, sprints, truck pushes, sledgehammers, tabatas etc.

Adding to Ross' low tech approach tack in kettlebells, barbells, ergos, deadlifts, bench presses, oly lifts and gymnastic moves. As with CrossFit we have a wide spectrum of means available to us.

Taking the plan from NG (II is a little different) the split between Day 1 and Day 3 is circuit based work for Day 1 eg: 6 rounds of 20 push ups, 30 squats, 40 swings and something based around running (or rowing or jump rope) for Day 3 such as 6 rounds of run 400m, 20 ball slams, rest 60 secs.

Day 2 could be a couple of exercises, say 5x5 bench, weighted pullups

Day 3 again a couple of exercises, clean and jerks, muscle ups for example

Ross is also a keen proponent of isometrics but I do not have enough familiarity with this to comment.

Couple of things to be emphasised:

1. This is aimed primarily at combat athletes that will have a high demand on their time from the actual practice of their chosen sport. It doesn't really matter if you can deadlift 3x bw as a boxer if you can't throw a punch. Manage your time, don't trash yourself, work on your weaknesses. But this could quickly apply to the father of three, the busy doctor etc. When can you do this training and how does it impact on the rest of your life?

2. No one tool or method is king.

3. Variety. Mix it all up.

4. Intensity. Go hard, go fast. More is not better. The conditioning stuff should take 15 mins max. This, I know, is more than Gant is shooting for. I did some maths on some of these sessions and they were over in 5 mins. But like a nasty tabata set it doesn't feel like it at the time.

5. If you insist on running (ie more than 400s, 800s) run fast).

6. Stick in mini workouts where you can if you want to work on skills, bring up your pull up numbers etc.

Now, I don't think there is anything revolutionary here, certainly not for the readers of this forum, but it's probably complete iconoclasm for the average gymgoer or fitness enthusiast. I like the brevity of the approach. I can never get into an extended Starting Strength style cycle because my work hours are erratic, much to my frustration but a few top end effort strength and power moves interspersed with some conditioning through the week works well for me. And I don't need to train like I'm building up to a World Cup Final against the All Blacks anymore. I want to continue to develop my strength through my 30s and beyond but also ride my mountain bike, climb mountains, run when I want to, control my weight, all that kind of shit. What's great about Gant's experiment is that it worked and he set PRs.

Ross, who I think is a little younger than myself and Gant (Gant your 34 aren't you?), says he can't remember the last time he was injured and he extends his training to many days on end without rest. But don't take this to mean that he slams his body every time he trains. Not every session needs to be a quest for a PR and although I hate doing it there are times when if I'm not feeling the love, I walk away. That's an important distinction mind, not feeling the love is different to not being prepared to suck it up.

Anyway, I guess this could be seen as kind of an ME Black Box approach. It's certainly a bit different to some of the periodization methods Ross wrote about in his earlier work (Month 1 - Max strength, Month 2 - introduce plyo work, Month 3 - Combine strength and plyo work in complex training - would love to see an article on complex training in PM - reset, repeat) and he now believes in developing a number of qualities simultaneously. And hell, will you look at the man...

So, any thoughts?

*PS if you don't own his books and dvd I highly recommend that you buy them.

Great post.

Ross Enamait's Infinite Intensity plays this type of programming very similarly to what Gant has done. Very good protocol in my opinion. Also very comprehensive protocol.

The major differences in my opinion are:

1. Structure of the "Max Effort Days"
2. Modalities utilized in the "Metcon Days" he calls one a Warrior Challenge Day and another a GPP day. Seldom are any significant loads used, where Gant was going pretty heavy. They're also in the 15-25 minute range, and thus longer.
3. Finishers being used after Metcon AND Max Effort Days.
4. A day dedicated to endurance training (track work/intervals).

If anyone is interested I can write out the template (sans details that you'll need to pay him for obviously) later when I get home and have access to the book.

David

PS - The video of Ross pulling a 495 Deadlift (bodyweight of around 170 I think) without a doubt the most impressive thing I've seen in a long time.

James Evans
06-13-2008, 07:02 AM
Great post.

Ross Enamait's Infinite Intensity plays this type of programming very similarly to what Gant has done. Very good protocol in my opinion. Also very comprehensive protocol.

The major differences in my opinion are:

1. Structure of the "Max Effort Days"
2. Modalities utilized in the "Metcon Days" he calls one a Warrior Challenge Day and another a GPP day. Seldom are any significant loads used, where Gant was going pretty heavy. They're also in the 15-25 minute range, and thus longer.
3. Finishers being used after Metcon AND Max Effort Days.
4. A day dedicated to endurance training (track work/intervals).

If anyone is interested I can write out the template (sans details that you'll need to pay him for obviously) later when I get home and have access to the book.

David

PS - The video of Ross pulling a 495 Deadlift (bodyweight of around 170 I think) without a doubt the most impressive thing I've seen in a long time.

Thanks David. The plans in both books have a similar template. I had forgotten about the use of finishers.

What you mention about weight used is interesting. Take the Magic 50:

5 Swings each arm
5 Snatches each arm
10 Burpees
60 sec rest
5 rounds

I normally use a 16kg or 20kg kettlebell or (if I want the swings to go above my head the way Ross does them) a similar weighted db. Now I think this is a great routine. I've done it without the rests. I've even added 10 bodyweight snatch grip deadlifts to each round. But it never really crushes me and it's out the way in 12 minutes.

Then you look at Ross' forum and it takes on the mythical status of Fran. But some of these guys are using much bigger weights (I'm sure someone claimed they were doing this with 40kg odd of kettlebell).

Is this the intention of this particularly challenge? It fits Gant's go heavy, go hard credo. I don't think it's what Ross necessarily implied.

David Stout
06-13-2008, 07:21 AM
Is this the intention of this particularly challenge? It fits Gant's go heavy, go hard credo. I don't think it's what Ross necessarily implied.

I agree. I don't think it's what Ross implied per se.

With respect to his loading:

> If I remember Inf Int makes no actual prescription for loads in the metcons except for the "High Knee Dumbell Press"
> Increasing load in the GPP/Warrior Challenges was one of about four ways he suggests increasing the challenge.

The warrior challenges and gpp workouts use the following (quick list here I dug up at work): burpees, jumping hacks, db snatch & swing, shadow boxing, pull ups, ball slams, split jumps, mountain climbers, air squat, push up & plyo push up, knee tucks, rope jumps.

At anyrate, apologies if this is not exact I'm going mostly off memory and am no expert on Ross' stuff. I think its a great parallell to the type of programming this thread is discussing, and thanks for pointing it out.

David

Garrett Smith
06-13-2008, 08:54 AM
James,
I hope this covers it.

http://www.slowfattriathlete.com/

Chicago Marathon: Defending Slow, Fat, Poorly Trained Runners (http://completerunning.com/archives/2007/10/11/chicago-marathon-defending-slow-fat-poorly-trained-runners/)

Do I need to post stuff about overweight distance cyclists and swimmers?

Basically, anyone can create endurance capacity with enough training at it, fat or lean. LSD is "easy" to build compared to strength and power.

http://beginnertriathlete.com/cms/Article-detail.asp?Articleid=203&vote=7
I know now that dreams can come true with a little work and you don't have to be a tight, muscular athlete to finish. You can be an overweight athlete with a big heart and the drive to complete your objective.

James Evans
06-13-2008, 09:12 AM
Basically, anyone can create endurance capacity with enough training at it, fat or lean. LSD is "easy" to build compared to strength and power.

But not "anyone" can build strength and power with enough training at it?

I'm not particularly interested in +3.30 marathon times as evidence of this. You can jog-walk a distance event and hurt like fuck for a week after but that doesn't mean you've trained your endurance levels to anything to write home about.

If we set the goal post there then how do we apply that to strength? For a beginner to relatively quickly reach bodyweight (before maybe a plateau) in a number of lifts - easy or hard? Sure, a sub 3 marathon for those not genitically proposed for endurance work is probably going to be as difficult to come by as a massive deadlift.

Now, I know you have just said LSD but I hear that bandied around as the tag for all endurance events and that gets a little tedious.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to bark at you but just because every S&C columnist writes an article about how all joggers are either fat, miserable or both it does not mean that endurance is exclusively LSD and the domain of the fat, miserable or both.

And personally I do think jogging 3 miles a day at the same pace week in week out is bullshit.

Mike ODonnell
06-13-2008, 09:24 AM
I started to write this earlier in the week but I went away and gave it a little more thought. In the context of what is being discussed here I wondered how many of you were familiar with the templates laid down by Ross Enamait in Infinite Intensity and Never Gymless (which is primarily bodyweight focused)* and how they would fit this hybrid model. I've lent my copy of II to someone but I had a quick flick through NG to refresh my memory.

Basically you employ a 5 day cycle:

Day 1: Conditioning

Day 2: Maximal Strength/Core work

Day 3: Conditioning

Day 4: Explosive Strength/Core work

Day 5: Rest



Great thread...just going to share my lifestyle method that I am playing around with. Trying to find my happy spot in which I can do things I enjoy but also gain maximum health and fitness...with that being said I have focused this summer to:
- More bodyweight exercises (rings are on the way....Yipee!)
- No...Zero....Zip.....Gym time...everything outside in nature
- Minimal equipment....rings...backpack with plates/weights....and going to get some old rusty adjustable DB/plates from craigslist (love the simplicity of it)
- More 1 legged focus for sports/activities (1 legged squats/lunges, etc)
- More sprinting/running/biking

So that being said the goal is something like above:

Play Days - Go outside and Run/Bike....start off with intervals/hills and then progress into longer activity (nothing over 45min total)

Bodyweight and Explosive Days - Snatch/Clean/Swing rusty DB for sets of 5 each arm (heavy) and other bodyweight exercises on rings/ground with no additional weights for multiple sets of around 10.

Heavy Bodyweight - Backpack and weights for lunges (uphill), 1 legged squats, weighted dips, pushups, pullups....sets of 5

and just have fun with it...listen to my body...and tweak as I go for fat loss and muscle gain....life is fun...so should the workouts be.

Mike ODonnell
06-13-2008, 09:28 AM
And personally I do think jogging 3 miles a day at the same pace week in week out is bullshit.

Does get decent fat loss on a CKD diet regimine however....if one also adds in a few strength workouts and keep their protein intake high enough. 3miles is only like 30min....not alot. Although jogging slow is boring.....rather run like someone is chasing me.

James Evans
06-13-2008, 09:42 AM
and just have fun with it...listen to my body...and tweak as I go for fat loss and muscle gain....life is fun...so should the workouts be.

Exactly. Get some air. Enjoy what you're doing. Adapt to what's around you and adapt what your doing as it suits.

I sit in this damn office some days fuming because I'm not going to get home in time to do a certain routine I've been working on. I'm much happier when I just decide what I'm going to do the moment I get home. And some times that might change after the first set!

This week I have distinctly disliked:
Rutman
Ross Enamait

Last week:
Dan John
Rob Shaul
Alwyn Cosgrove
but Zach Even-Esh was alright.

Quite often Mark Twight is a hate figure in my world too.

One thing I can't really alter though are the nights I want to get out on the bike and I get back with 40 minutes of daylight left. It makes me hammer it more at the weekend. Last year I took 4 months off work and could bike when and where I wanted. Fantastic.

Got very poor though.

Anton Emery
06-13-2008, 10:04 AM
I started to write this earlier in the week but I went away and gave it a little more thought. In the context of what is being discussed here I wondered how many of you were familiar with the templates laid down by Ross Enamait in Infinite Intensity and Never Gymless (which is primarily bodyweight focused)* and how they would fit this hybrid model. I've lent my copy of II to someone but I had a quick flick through NG to refresh my memory.

Basically you employ a 5 day cycle:

Day 1: Conditioning

Day 2: Maximal Strength/Core work

Day 3: Conditioning

Day 4: Explosive Strength/Core work

Day 5: Rest

.........



Cool to see Ross's stuff mentioned. After reading this thread i was just flipping through his two books and the booklet that came along with his DVD. He puts out such great products..

I think the day to day plan laid out in II would work well for a type of hybrid programming like this. I tried the II routine a while back but found myself mostly skipping the running workouts. I was doing 3-4 days of BJJ at the time, and couldnt really fit it all in.

Ross uses dumbell versions of the O-lifts in II. One could easily sub in regular barbell versions, use a keg, etc. One thing i like about his manuals is he wants you to come away with knowledge to construct your own plans based on what you have available to you.

Here is what i am kind of throwing around in my head as far as a hybrid type plan.

Day 1 Max Stregth/Slow lift day or gymnastics/ring work.

Strength Circuit (ala Robb Wolf) 3-5 x 2- 5 reps

Deadlift or Squat
Weighted Ring Dip
Weighted Pull up

Core Work
Finisher-Farmers Walk, Sandbag Carry, Tabata something, etc

Day 2 Heavy Metcon/GPP Day

Something like Fran, Ross's Magic 50, or whatever else i can come up with. Quick and heavy.

Some sort of core work.

Day 3. Explosive strength

Non maximal O lifts
Explosive Pushups
Jumping Squats
Ball Slams
Sledgehammer work
etc

I think on this day i would either have some sort of circuit routine like:

5 Keg Clean and Press
10 Med Ball Slams
20 Jump Squats
5 rounds

so i would get some conditioning benefits too, or else use a more traditional set/rep scheme and work the O-lifts and throw in some jumping squats and plyo pushups afterwards. Depends on how i feel from BJJ, i think the above routine plus 3-4 days a week of good BJJ practice would work well for me.



Anton

Garrett Smith
06-13-2008, 10:55 AM
James,
Maybe I was misunderstood and/or I'm misunderstanding you.

I'm personally not interested in the "benefits" of the modern long time+distance activities, whether done fast/elite or slow/amateur. The 3-mile constant speed jogging you mentioned would be a good example.

Getting an untrained person to be proficient at long slow distance is easy (building basic hamster-wheel endurance), that's what I'm referring to. Getting an untrained person up to basic strength, if we set decent standards, will likely take a bit longer with more focus required than say, simply going out and jogging (and maybe never increasing in speed, only in distance capable of covering).

I did not mean to do the LSD/endurance-bashing you are mentioning that other S&C coaches are doing. I'm implying that a decent level of aerobic endurance can be trained using anaerobic methods (ie. Tabata) and there may be significant drawbacks to conventional endurance/LSD training that make it undesirable to do for many folks (particularly those interested in this thread).

I think we're mainly on the same page, I may have initially come across wrong to you.

Strength and power can be built by anyone, yes. Decent levels of it take longer to build than general endurance. "Endurance" can be gained through strength and power training (ie. runners adding squats and getting faster), but I really don't believe conventional endurance LSD training transfers the other way.

:D

Steven Low
06-13-2008, 02:25 PM
FYI tabata method draws a lot of energy from aerobic pathways. Same with HIIT. There's good reason why these correlate well with increase aerobic output.

Don't believe me? Read this stupid thread that wasted half my afternoon. :(
http://www.board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=33012


Anyway, yeah power and strength work can easily be converted into endurance. Not vice versa. That's the whole point of strength biased metcons and heavy lifting with Gant's hybrid program.

Peter Dell'Orto
06-13-2008, 06:26 PM
Anyway, yeah power and strength work can easily be converted into endurance. Not vice versa. That's the whole point of strength biased metcons and heavy lifting with Gant's hybrid program.

So, essentially, the take-home lesson is:

The shorter, more efficient route to a higher work capacity + high strength is to emphasize strength + add some work capacity training. The longer, less efficient route to a higher work capacity + high strength is to emphasize work capacity training + add some strength.

Is that about right? Probably could be stated a lot more clearly and succinctly.

Kevin Perry
06-13-2008, 06:30 PM
FYI tabata method draws a lot of energy from aerobic pathways. Same with HIIT. There's good reason why these correlate well with increase aerobic output.

Don't believe me? Read this stupid thread that wasted half my afternoon. :(
http://www.board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=33012

Anyway, yeah power and strength work can easily be converted into endurance. Not vice versa. That's the whole point of strength biased metcons and heavy lifting with Gant's hybrid program.


Ah yes, I did'nt bother posting in there.. you talk like exercise physiologist Steven. You should be one.

Steven Low
06-13-2008, 06:53 PM
So, essentially, the take-home lesson is:

The shorter, more efficient route to a higher work capacity + high strength is to emphasize strength + add some work capacity training. The longer, less efficient route to a higher work capacity + high strength is to emphasize work capacity training + add some strength.

Is that about right? Probably could be stated a lot more clearly and succinctly.

That's my conclusion.

As you know there's many people on the CF forums who disagree and argue that the best way to go is do CF scaled.

Now, for the people that absolutely need fitness quickly like police, military, firefighters, SWAT and the like it's definitely a better idea for them to go the fitness route (CF scaled). On the other hand, since strength is definitely harder to build than work capacity that's why I'd argue for strength (like SS) or strength biased work (Gant's hybrid program) over solely CF scaled for newer people.

At least if your goal is the high strength + high work capacity... where you're starting with low/intermediate strength and low/intermediate/high work capacity.

Peter Dell'Orto
06-13-2008, 07:28 PM
That's my conclusion.

Okay, I'm glad I understood it correctly.


As you know there's many people on the CF forums who disagree and argue that the best way to go is do CF scaled.

Yeah. I was in one of those discussions and felt like I was bum-rushed for suggesting that maybe starting with a strength basis might be better than scaling. I couldn't really argue very well, because I'm a solo trainee arguing vs. actual certified coaches with clients, so they had the weight of experience and a client base.

Actually one of the reasons I don't post there anymore is I got to realize the answer to all my questions was "do the WOD on the front page 3-on-1-off, as RXed or scaled, eat strict Zone." Pretty much no matter what my situation was. Or my question was, actually. :)
I doubt I'd get a highly enthusiastic response for my mix of a compressed two-day "Westside for Skinny Bastards" and CF workouts and mixed ME/DE + metcon days on a rigid schedule, but my PRs are all the feedback I need at the moment. Maybe I'd have gotten them scaling CF too, but that just would just show that there is more than one answer.

(Editing later - sorry if that came off as unnecessarily or inappropriately bitter. It's not meant to be. I'm just trying to explain while I stopped posting there and why I appreciate the "multiple approach" methods I see here.)

At least if your goal is the high strength + high work capacity... where you're starting with low/intermediate strength and low/intermediate/high work capacity.

That makes sense to me. It seems like the approach needed is like any other athletic programming - start with the end point ("I need to do X, Y, and Z by this specific point in time") and work backwards to program. If you've got the space and time, you can afford to do strength-focused and work on metcon as needed to get there. If you don't have the time but need the work capacity (LEO, military, etc. as you mentioned), you might not be able to fit as much strength training in there.

I did this for my last fight - started with "I fight on this day" and worked back. I ended up with more metcon than I'd have otherwise because I knew I needed it and it was an easier thing to improve than my strength given the time limit I had. Now I'm coming back from an injury sustained in that fight (doh), so I'm doing a more strength-centered approach in order to maximize my fitness for the next one. As I get stronger and I get closer to the actual fight I'll change that focus. That's the plan, anyway. What I do on my workout days will owe a bit more to Gant's post at the top of this thread, I can tell you. It's similar to what I'm doing already but it's another tool for the toolbox.

Patrick Donnelly
06-13-2008, 09:08 PM
Don't believe me? Read this stupid thread that wasted half my afternoon. :(
http://www.board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=33012

And we appreciate every letter you typed in it. http://img362.imageshack.us/img362/1091/iconwackobz7.gif


If you really want to kill an entire day, read this thread for start to finish:
http://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=32282

Steven Low
06-13-2008, 09:21 PM
And we appreciate every letter you typed in it. http://img362.imageshack.us/img362/1091/iconwackobz7.gif


If you really want to kill an entire day, read this thread for start to finish:
http://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=32282
I've already read that horrible, horrible thread.

CF forums have been getting on my nerves lately. I may have to step out for a couple of weeks, heh.

--------------


Peter that's great you're finding out what works for you.

It really seems that the more you learn, the more everything becomes simplified as in KISS (keep it simple stupid). Don't need anything too complex to progress like most of the programs out there (t-nation half the time as an example). Just eat well, sleep well, lift heavy and do some conditioning and you're golden. Maybe adjust a bit for specific goals, but no need to get fancy with supersets, massive increases in volume, isolation work or whatever else is "in" for the day.

Mike ODonnell
06-13-2008, 10:09 PM
CF forums have been getting on my nerves lately. I may have to step out for a couple of weeks, heh.

...and here I just joined back in them.....after a two year break....

Peter Dell'Orto
06-13-2008, 10:50 PM
Peter that's great you're finding out what works for you.

I'm still learning, but I'm also making progress at the same time. I'll probably never find out what works "best" for me, but at least I'll find out what works if I keep finding good information like I get here.

It really seems that the more you learn, the more everything becomes simplified as in KISS (keep it simple stupid).

You can make a lot of progress just by working hard. I find I need some complexity to get past my sticking points - can't just keep doing the same thing with a little more weight on the bar, or by doing just a few more reps. That's how I end up hurt - if I hit a brick wall I need to avoid the temptation of backing up and running at it again to see if it's still in front of me. But the core of it is simple - showing up and working hard. That solves at least 80% of the problems right there.

For the other 20% I find I need to muck around with my programming. :)

***

And those are ugly threads, but I did browse them and realize a) the CF affiliate I visited my last time in NJ, Crossfit Morris County, was a truly excellent deal. I stole an hour of deadlift technique work. STOLE it. And b) Mark Rippetoe's gym is damn cheap, too bad it's in WF. :)

Garrett Smith
06-14-2008, 07:07 AM
I too have reduced my presence there yet again, but let's keep on topic guys....

Steven, your willingness to answer those threads is amazing. I like the "it's not aerobic" part. Um, the aerobic system is pretty much where we live...we add in the others as necessary...I had to stop reading it after that part as I wanted to keep those minutes of my life.

I've been trying to think of a more catchy name for the hybrid programming, haven't been able to come up with one yet...

David Stout
06-14-2008, 12:17 PM
That's my conclusion.

As you know there's many people on the CF forums who disagree and argue that the best way to go is do CF scaled.

Now, for the people that absolutely need fitness quickly like police, military, firefighters, SWAT and the like it's definitely a better idea for them to go the fitness route (CF scaled). On the other hand, since strength is definitely harder to build than work capacity that's why I'd argue for strength (like SS) or strength biased work (Gant's hybrid program) over solely CF scaled for newer people.

At least if your goal is the high strength + high work capacity... where you're starting with low/intermediate strength and low/intermediate/high work capacity.

Steven I TOTALLY agree with what you said regarding the FIRE, LEO, MILITARY crowd. The randomized, non planned, GPP route probably serves them best.

I feel that maybe the programming approaches this thread discuss are a good option if the following apply to you (just some thoughts):
a. those of us who have never left the novice strength category
b. total beginners to any kind of fitness
c. those that have time (and the willingness) to take a methodical approach to the training through calculated programming
d. not a member of the group mentioned first (fire, leo, military)

So MAYBE we have two approaches here folks. The hierarchy postulated originally by CF (image below, copyright CF Inc.), and a second approach which places the priority to "weightlifting" and THEN metabolic conditioning. On a side note I'd like to see "recovery" included in my pyramid to boot.

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w97/davidmstout/untitled-1.jpg

Peter Dell'Orto
06-14-2008, 02:56 PM
Two questions on the gymnastics warmup - what are 360s? Searches on "360" and "rings" are pulling up a huge amount of unrelated links for me, so I'm not clear what they are.

Second, is there a good video or technical explanation of the "back roll to support"?

Timothy Holmes
06-14-2008, 03:05 PM
Peter, go to Drills and Skills (http://www.drillsandskills.com/skills/Rings/) for all you gymnastic movement description needs... :)

---------

So, using Gant's hybrid program to develop strength and power first, you will most likely develop your overall fitness quicker. Does there come a time when the focus should be back on metcon?

Steven Low
06-14-2008, 06:47 PM
Peter:

"360s" is a Coach Sommer named skill available for viewing on one of his posted youtube vids.

http://gymnasticbodies.com/

Most other skills can be viewed on drillsandskills or through asking unless it's really obscure.

----------------------------

Timothy:

I would assume you "switch" back to metcon only when you want to. Or when your job requires it. Or for CF games.

Cause well if your goal isn't exactly "increased work capacity over broad modal and time domains" then you might not need the kind of more metcon biased programming that the mainpage WOD offers. Well, that and considering that Gant and Garrett are two people who have said that the traditional 3/1 CF mainpage WODs have the tendency to left them feeling beat up. This is especially the case with older folks who's recovery ability isn't that great. I actually know a lot of people that feel this way (the recovery aspect and feeling beat up) who have good diets and are not older either.

----------------------------

David:

Good observation. The traditional pyramid is as stated:

1. nutrition
2. metabolic conditioning
3. gymnastics
4. weightlifting and throwing
5. sport

I'd say the modified one may look something like:

1. nutrition
2. strength or power via gymnastics & weightlifting and throwing
3. metabolic conditioning
4. sport

I think recovery is implicit. Any good trainer knows that rest is when the body recovers from fatigue induced by a training program so it's always needed.

Mike ODonnell
06-14-2008, 10:18 PM
I'd say the modified one may look something like:

1. nutrition
2. strength or power via gymnastics & weightlifting and throwing
3. metabolic conditioning
4. sport

I think recovery is implicit. Any good trainer knows that rest is when the body recovers from fatigue induced by a training program so it's always needed.

I'd say recovery is #2....I don't care how obvious it is...people just don't do it....they overtrain and then wonder why they don't get results. That and I put sport skills waaaay before metabolic conditioning....anyone can ride a bike and get better at it....not everyone has skills to excel at a particular sport....and you don't need super conditioning if your skills are higher. (assuming we are not talking about "fitness" as a sport)

Steven Low
06-14-2008, 11:11 PM
I'd say recovery is #2....I don't care how obvious it is...people just don't do it....they overtrain and then wonder why they don't get results. That and I put sport skills waaaay before metabolic conditioning....anyone can ride a bike and get better at it....not everyone has skills to excel at a particular sport....and you don't need super conditioning if your skills are higher. (assuming we are not talking about "fitness" as a sport)
Well, sport depends on if you have a sport. My sport is/was gymnastics so obviously it's already higher than metabolic conditioning. :D But yeah, you're right. CF as a sport is different from using CF to improve in your sport.

Well, overtraining is only a consistent problem in the CF community from what I've seen. The vast majority of everyone else does maybe 3x a week workouts if full body at all.. generally without squats and DLs or does splits. Basically undertraining if there was such a thing. But yeah, recovery is vastly important. If we include sleep in recovery ultimately I might even say it should go to #1 instead of #2 (well, arguable but check out Robb Wolf's blog on sleep for some interesting stuff on that).

Personally, I have metcon like last on my list of stuff that I want to do just because I have no reason to have a huge work capacity. The strength I have gives me enough capacity as it is and nutrition, "new sports" occasionally, flexibility, skill work and such all trump metcon by far. Just not for me well at least right now.

David Stout
06-15-2008, 04:42 AM
I'd say the modified one may look something like:

1. nutrition
2. strength or power via gymnastics & weightlifting and throwing
3. metabolic conditioning
4. sport

I think recovery is implicit. Any good trainer knows that rest is when the body recovers from fatigue induced by a training program so it's always needed.

I agree Steven BUT when I say recovery I don't mean just rest. I include in the term recovery the following:

1. Rest
2. Flexibility Work
3. Self Massage (with the Foam Roller for example)
4. Auxillary preventative work for the shoulders, grip, neck, ankles.

The auxillary work and flexibility work were two major themes emphasized in the book I mentioned in a way earlier post (Wrestling Physical Conditioning Encyclopedia by John Jesse, 1974), and I put it all into one category for simplicity sakes.

Additionally since the category involves activities and rest that are so involved I thought them deserving of a spot.

BUT yeah, I like the ordering there in the list and ESPECIALLY the way you worded number 2!

I'd say recovery is #2....I don't care how obvious it is...people just don't do it....they overtrain and then wonder why they don't get results. That and I put sport skills waaaay before metabolic conditioning....anyone can ride a bike and get better at it....not everyone has skills to excel at a particular sport....and you don't need super conditioning if your skills are higher. (assuming we are not talking about "fitness" as a sport)

I agree Mike. I have to train at LEAST three days a week to even maintain my mediocre status in Gracie Jiu Jitsu. If I wanted to be competitive or really decent I need around 4-5 days a week. Sounds like a priority for me and other sports to boot.

Well, sport depends on if you have a sport.

Well this was originally a template for "A Theoretical Hierarchy of Development of an Athlete." So I suppose it implies that the individual is prepping for sport, has a sport, trains in a sport, etc. :)

David

PS - AWESOME POSTS EVERYONE!

Steven Low
06-15-2008, 08:34 AM
Yeah, there's tons of stuff you can group under recovery work which make it almost more important than actual training sometimes. The one thing that kind of irks me about it is that generally you only need recovery work because of said training program in the first place so is it really more important?

But definitely if we are categorizing recovery as rest, flexibility, massage, heat/ice, soreness alleviation, prehab work and much more then it is definitely extremely important perhaps moreso than actual training most of the time if we consider training a constant.

Mike ODonnell
06-15-2008, 10:42 AM
Well, sport depends on if you have a sport. My sport is/was gymnastics so obviously it's already higher than metabolic conditioning.

Of course the needs of each sport will differ by sport.....if your sport is triathlons, then you need better conditioning for running/biking/swimming....if your sport is baseball, you better be able to throw 95mph or hit a ball 400ft....loads of variables of course.

Yes recovery can be many things (sleep probably being the base of it).....heck even nutrition could fall under it....but probably better to keep that separate to keep the focus on how important it is.

Brandon Oto
06-15-2008, 06:19 PM
Remember that the point of that pyramid wasn't supposed to be "what's most important" or "what comes first," but specifically a hierarchy of "what is built on what." So sport is last because you apply everything else to sport, not so much apply sport to other things.

But I agree that metcon should come second to the top, and strength probably second to the bottom. Recovery can be a sea everything swims within... no training ever happens without recovery.

Derek Weaver
06-15-2008, 09:43 PM
Brandon,
Very well said. Looks like this thread stayed very active... gotta catch up after having a great weekend down in Santa Barbara.

Great point and analogy on recovery. The all too often neglected variable.

James Evans
06-16-2008, 05:17 AM
Ross uses dumbell versions of the O-lifts in II. One could easily sub in regular barbell versions, use a keg, etc. One thing i like about his manuals is he wants you to come away with knowledge to construct your own plans based on what you have available to you.


Anton,

That was what I was suggesting. Ross is keeping the tools as low tech as possible but if you have a wider spectrum of tools/skills available to you, use them.

Now obviously he has shown his methods work because he is no mean deadlifter but throw in a barbell clean & jerk or heavy back squat or intervals on the C2 and see what happens.

And your quite right, although his books explain things in minute detail his message is go and out and find what works for you. I see he has even put a sticky on his message board that says: "there is no Ross way".

Peter Dell'Orto
06-17-2008, 04:16 AM
First, thanks guys for the links.

I'd say the modified one may look something like:

1. nutrition
2. strength or power via gymnastics & weightlifting and throwing
3. metabolic conditioning
4. sport

I think recovery is implicit. Any good trainer knows that rest is when the body recovers from fatigue induced by a training program so it's always needed.

I like Brandon's idea that recovery is the overall circle that surround the pyramid. But I've seen lots of enthusiastic people run themselves into the ground, confident they could eat enough and train hard enough to overcome lack of recovery. Putting it in as #1 or #2 would make sense - if the true basis of strength and conditioning is from your base of eating and resting habits, then it needs to be there. Maybe:

1. Nutrition
2. Recovery
3. strength or power via gymnastics & weightlifting and throwing
4. metabolic conditioning
5. sport

or combine the two and get:

1. Nutrition and Recovery
2. strength or power via gymnastics & weightlifting and throwing
3. metabolic conditioning
4. sport.

"Recovery" would encompass active and passive recovery - sleep, mobility/flexibility work, foam rolling/massage, meditation, any de-stressing activities (play, essentially). I think it's convincingly as important as nutrition. It's probably easier to out-train a so-so diet than it is to out-train lack of time off between hard workouts and lack of sleep. I've seen people get pretty strong and fit on diets I'd consider bad. But I've never seen someone with bad sleep habits or who can't stop working out daily get very far. Usually they fall prey to fatigue or injury, respectively.

Cosmo Mazza
06-17-2008, 05:22 AM
I posted a similar question over on CF before seeing this thread is asking my exact question. Given the pyramid that has developed with sport at the peak. How does this translate into your program design?

I've read SS and PP but it's not clear to me...I guess I'm just slow.

I'm sure it depends on the individual and the sport(s), but I'm interested in hearing your approaches.

Thanks

Steven Low
06-17-2008, 09:02 AM
I posted a similar question over on CF before seeing this thread is asking my exact question. Given the pyramid that has developed with sport at the peak. How does this translate into your program design?

I've read SS and PP but it's not clear to me...I guess I'm just slow.

I'm sure it depends on the individual and the sport(s), but I'm interested in hearing your approaches.

Thanks
Sport specific skills come near the bottom of the pyramid. Well, specifically they should be strongly integrated into the power/strength/endurance aspect of training or the metabolic conditioning if the sport requires it.

All of the actual "factors" below sport add to up to make it so that you can play it well. For instance, nutrition, strength/power/endurance, recovery, conditioning, etc. all contribute to how well you can play said sport. Most elite athletes aren't that way because they just play or practice the sport (one exception might be basketball); in everything else like football, gymnastics, etc. strength and conditioning especially with sport specific skills in that manner is integral to becoming good at the sport on game day. This is why sport is at the top in the pyramid.

Gant Grimes
06-17-2008, 09:22 AM
Great stuff. This really took off while I was gone.

For elite athletes in their physical prime:

1. Genetics
2. Sport


For everyone else:

1. Genetics
2. Nutrition
3. Movement and strength
4. Metcon

Sport can appear anywhere above genetics. How many people do you hear about/know that are good at sports despite lack of speed/strength/conditioning?

Chris Bate
06-17-2008, 06:20 PM
. How many people do you hear about/know that are good at sports despite lack of speed/strength/conditioning?

Well, I do know a few who were on my wrestling team last year :D

A few with incredible technique, yet overall not very athletic (OK maybe horribly unathletic would be a better description:o ), kids on my team would go out and crush the muscular and athletic kids they wrestled. It was pretty satisfying to watch, really :D

On the downside, just about all of them were injured during the course of the season, and for two of them it screwed up their hopes for going to the regional/state competitions. Extra strength helps injury proof you, IMHO.

Steve Rogers
06-17-2008, 06:36 PM
I'm sure it depends on the individual and the sport(s), but I'm interested in hearing your approaches.

As a geriatric novice at the Highland Games (aka Scottish Heavy Athletics), here's my approach as a data point. I've been fairly hard on my body over the years, so I need to include prehab/rehab in my training. I need to have a strength focus, but still get some conditioning. Spending all day throwing heavy implements is rather demanding, particularly when the weather leaves something to be desired. Some meets also throw in the kilted mile.

Highland Games are seasonal in Colorado and neighboring states so it makes sense to plan around that. If your sport is year round in your area, you can just pick a particular meet to peak for. At any rate I picked the Long's Peak Highland Games this September as a target, with the intent to enter some earlier competitions to get some experience (compete early and often). I like Dan John's approach of dividing the year into overlapping periods of heavy lifting, heavy throwing, and competition, but I'm not really doing that this year. It's more like an experiment as I rehab my right knee and left shoulder, try to get stronger, and learn the events.

Peter Dell'Orto
06-18-2008, 03:59 AM
For everyone else:

1. Genetics
2. Nutrition
3. Movement and strength
4. Metcon


So, when do we get the program for developing superior genetics?

:D

Gant Grimes
06-18-2008, 06:48 AM
So, when do we get the program for developing superior genetics?

:D

In about 10-15 years. Bring your checkbook.

Chris Bate
06-18-2008, 07:28 AM
Strength Circuit (ala Robb Wolf) 3-5 x 2- 5 reps

Deadlift or Squat
Weighted Ring Dip
Weighted Pull up

Anton

I know this is an old post, but could someone please explain what this Robb Wolf-style strength circuit is?

I seem to remember a post where he talked about training clients with novice level strength and utilizing some sort of circuit, but I can't seem to find it for the life of me!

Thanks :D

On a more on-topic note, I was a CF'er who started SS, but after ending the cycle didn't want to go back to CF. So I made up my own sort of "hybrid" training by arranging slow lifts, metcons, and some o-lifts around each week. I would sit out at my computer, make a list of all the days I would train, put in my "Strength" and rest days, and then sprinkle a few metcons in where I could.

I've been doing this since early April and so far I've acheived:

(16 yo, 5'6", 135lb)
245x5 Back Squat
290x5 Deadlift
120x5 Press
165x3 Bench

About a month in I suffered a major setback with appendicitis, too. The gains keep coming (though I've hit a wall with my squat recently). I'm in decent shape, too, but now I'm working on more conditioning to make wrestling practices more bearable.

Allen Yeh
06-18-2008, 09:49 AM
It was in the article for the fighter prep.

He utilized the following
deadlift
ring dips
weighted pullups
using 3-5 sets reps of 1-3 reps in a circuit fashion with 1 minute between each exercise, stopping the effort at 15 minutes.

Anton Emery
06-18-2008, 10:04 AM
I know this is an old post, but could someone please explain what this Robb Wolf-style strength circuit is?

I seem to remember a post where he talked about training clients with novice level strength and utilizing some sort of circuit, but I can't seem to find it for the life of me!

Thanks :D

On a more on-topic note, I was a CF'er who started SS, but after ending the cycle didn't want to go back to CF. So I made up my own sort of "hybrid" training by arranging slow lifts, metcons, and some o-lifts around each week. I would sit out at my computer, make a list of all the days I would train, put in my "Strength" and rest days, and then sprinkle a few metcons in where I could.

I've been doing this since early April and so far I've acheived:

(16 yo, 5'6", 135lb)
245x5 Back Squat
290x5 Deadlift
120x5 Press
165x3 Bench

About a month in I suffered a major setback with appendicitis, too. The gains keep coming (though I've hit a wall with my squat recently). I'm in decent shape, too, but now I'm working on more conditioning to make wrestling practices more bearable.

Chris,

Cool that you wrestle. I do Brazillian Juijitsu, so i am looking for a similar type of fitness. My workouts need to enhance my grappling, not tire me out for class.

There is a link to a Word doc on this post by Art Devaney where Robb talks about it too.

http://www.arthurdevany.com/?p=709

http://www.arthurdevany.com/Food%20Exercise.doc

I think he basically alternates Back Squats or Deadlifts along with dips and pull ups in a strength circuit designed to quickly get people up to 2XBW Squat and 2-2.5xBW Deadlift. After that he would do some sort of brief but potent metcon.

Sounds like a good way to go, especially when you are trying to wrestle a 200lb opponent the next day.


Anton

Mike ODonnell
06-18-2008, 11:40 AM
How many people do you hear about/know that are good at sports despite lack of speed/strength/conditioning?

Bowlers.....

Chris Bate
06-18-2008, 01:54 PM
Anton and Allen, thanks for the links and info.

I just bought Robb's "Power Bias" and "Fight Prep" articles. Good stuff!

Leo Soubbotine
06-18-2008, 03:23 PM
Peter - if you're lucky like me - you'd have some great genetics :D

Hm... may be the height is a bit counterproductive for CF but it's not too bad.
Everything else I'm really happy with.

Anton Emery
06-18-2008, 03:38 PM
Just got Robb Wolf's Power Bias article after seeing it mentioned here. Man, that guy is so smart, its such a good article, and written so i can understand it. It has definitely given me stuff to think about in my own training.


Anton

Joe Hart
06-18-2008, 03:40 PM
Anton- there are a few threads about the power bias and check out the interval with in an interval thread. Some good stuff. It goes well with Gant's hybrid.

Steve Rogers
06-18-2008, 05:37 PM
In about 10-15 years. Bring your checkbook.

Altering gene expression to maximize selected capabilities could be a reality within 5 years for those who have fat checkbooks and aren't picky about regulatory approval. Or it might be 50 years, but it'll happen barring some cataclysm.

Chris Bate
06-18-2008, 05:57 PM
Altering gene expression to maximize selected capabilities could be a reality within 5 years for those who have fat checkbooks and aren't picky about regulatory approval. Or it might be 50 years, but it'll happen barring some cataclysm.

In what field would that be? Biomedical engineering? I finally know what I want to study in college :D

Steve Rogers
06-18-2008, 07:19 PM
In what field would that be? Biomedical engineering? I finally know what I want to study in college :D
It's probably not on the menu yet. Biomedical engineering, biophyisics, or genetics would be reasonable choices. You need to look at the individual programs. Chaos theory or cybernetics might also be possibilities.

Peter Dell'Orto
06-18-2008, 11:27 PM
In about 10-15 years. Bring your checkbook.

Neither my checkbook or my genetics are very impressive.

But maybe Leo has a good checkbook to go with his genetics and will let me borrow one or the other. ;)

Ken Manning
07-01-2008, 10:52 AM
This is a tremendous thread going on here. Like probably most here, I have a long and varied (far too varied) lifting experience. This past January, I began performing the crossfit main page WODs, religiously adhering to the mnain site's schedule. Now, I was entering crossfit with a 425 deadlift and 170 OHP (just some examples). After the last couple of months of some grueling "chipper" workouts, etc, my most recent deadlift and OHP numbers were 385 and 160, respectively. I was burned out.

So, after reading through endless forums and message boards, I purchased Mark Rippetoe's Starting Strength and Practical Programming books. I wanted my strength back. However, I also wanted the tremendous potential benefits from metcon work. And then I found this forum and Gant's hybrid program. I'm loving what I'm seeing.

I just finished reading all the posts and am going to take this week to put together a program, probably structuring the intensity scheme in accordance with Ripp's practial programming guidelines.

One quick question:

What's the best way of going about working in the metcons? Now, after reading all the posts, I understand that I should keep them short (5-10 minutes, sometimes shorter when using tabatas) and often try to use heavier versions of some of the benchmark wod's - but is there any recommendation as to which wod's would be appropriate? or is it pretty much just choose any one, modify it for the 5-10 minutes no-rest-intense paramaters and just go for it? Right now I'm thinking about something along the lines of:

(all workouts full body, beginning with oly movements moving towards strenght movements and then a wod)
monday - H + wod
tues - rest
wed - M +wod
thurs - rest
fri - H + wod
sat - L + gymnastics training (total novice here)
sun - rest

will post again when I have a more detailed program in order (exercises, sets/reps, which wods, etc...)

Joe Hart
07-01-2008, 11:12 AM
Ken,

I have been using Greg Everett's METCONS on the CA WOD. I have also tossed in some of Coach RUT's WODs and Power Bias girls (thanks Robb)...I generally stop at 5 minutes sometimes going to 10 if I feel good. I doing the Hatch squat routine with Gant's Hybrid. Sometimes the legs are shot and 5 minutes is it. I have split the METCONs up between indoor and outdoor WODs. That will help me with planning for rainy days and the winter here in MN. I am still trying to decided what I am...(oly person that does BJJ or a BJJ that does oly)

Here is a side question for the thread...When you are doing your 5-10 minute METCONs do you kick your own ass or leave a little gas in the tank to pry your face out of your own puke. On the day before a rest day I don't leave much on the WOD table when I am done. I end up under the table as a sweaty drooling mess...

Still like it though...not as injured.

Allen Yeh
07-02-2008, 08:19 AM
I kick my ass as required by the workout. It's just a shorter asskicking.

Paul McKirdy
07-03-2008, 05:35 AM
Fletcher: I'm kicking my ass! Do you mind?
Liar Liar
lol!

Gant Grimes
07-03-2008, 08:19 AM
Ken, you pretty much have it.

Here is a side question for the thread...When you are doing your 5-10 minute METCONs do you kick your own ass or leave a little gas in the tank to pry your face out of your own puke. On the day before a rest day I don't leave much on the WOD table when I am done. I end up under the table as a sweaty drooling mess...

Still like it though...not as injured.

You basically try to Jimi Hendrix yourself every session. However, with such short workouts, you're done before you pass out, and you are able to recover in a short period.

Stefan Borovina
07-03-2008, 05:48 PM
Now how do you go about picking what exercises you will do for the short metcons? Do you worry about overtraining? For example after some near max deadlifting or squatting my legs are preety dead. Would it be overkill do include lower body work in my metcons?

Gant Grimes
07-04-2008, 05:39 AM
Now how do you go about picking what exercises you will do for the short metcons? Do you worry about overtraining? For example after some near max deadlifting or squatting my legs are preety dead. Would it be overkill do include lower body work in my metcons?

I usually pick them to compliment my lifting. Use full-body, multi-joint exercises as the foundation of your metcon, thrusters, cleans, KBs. These have an inherent metcon effect because of the nature of the exercise. Top them off with another movement or two, decide how long you need to do it (time, reps, rounds, weight), and get after it.

I keep everything I do in a log. Check it out. I usually comment on whether a metcon was good or bad. You should keep similar records.

I don't believe in the concept of overtraining. Recovery IS a part of training. If you're not recovering adequately, you are failing in your training program.

I am also aware of how my body is feeling. I get physically fatigued 3-6 times a year, and I have to break for several days. This is usually enough to keep me from getting CNS fatigue. Between a sometimes sporadic travel schedule and the fact that I usually just train 4 days a week, I'm usually good.

The question I think you want me to answer is whether or not this training program will drive you into the ground. No, it won't. If you train 3/1/2/1, you'll only be doing 3-4 short metcons per week. That's doable. But you HAVE to eat and you HAVE to rest (I don't do this part, but I'm pretty sure you need to).

Almost every metcon I do involves legs. I box squat most of the time, and I deadlift before a rest day (it's a non-metcon day). Plan accordingly.

Ken Manning
07-10-2008, 05:26 AM
Ah, I find myself falling into the trap of trying to include too many exercises for my program and was looking for a bit of guidance here.

First, here are the lifts I'd like to improve/work in this program:

Snatch (and variations)
clean (and variations, including jerks)
Squat
DL
Bench
Press/push press
Chins/pullups
Dips
[wondering if a rowing movement is necessary with all the oly lifts?]

My recovery ability is not that of a novice, in that I can't add weight every session. I'd say I'm in the intermediate category here, and initially thought the Texas Method as described in Rips Practical Programming was the way to go, as he says it's the best initial program for intermediates. However, I'm having a somewhat difficult time programming all of these lifts into the same week. Here's the basic week's intensity scheme:

Monday - 5x5, 80-85% 1RM, (oly lifts are 5x1-3) followed by 5-10 minute strength biased metcon

Wednesay - 2-3x5-8, 60-70% 1RM, followed by 10 minute more "bodyweight" based metcon (muscle ups for time, cindy, etc...)

Friday - work up to max set of 1-3 (will rotate each week, starting at 3, then the week after 2, then the third week a 1RM) followed again by a strength biased metcon, 5-10 minutes

Saturday - oly lift/gymnastics Technique work (nothing heavy or that would impede recovery) + perhaps some light metcon work (done at a lower intensity)

Obviously it would be a bad idea to incorporate ALL of the lifts I mentioned in the beginning of this post in every workout. Was thinking about alternating some UB/LB lifts, but was wondering if that works into the philosophy of the Texas Method, where one is supposed to cause a homeostatic disruption on monday, recovery workout wed, and set a PR for that lift Friday.

I guess I'm left wondering if I should either:

A) alternate lifts and keep each workout to 3-4 lifts
or
B) Just pair down drastically and go with 3-4 lifts and work then 3x/week


Any help with my programming issues would be greatly appreciated.

Steven Low
07-10-2008, 08:46 AM
What are you numbers?

When you're not doing oly do light technique work with oly. This could get up to like 3+ times a week but that's fine... can always use more technique work.

What exercises does Rip prescribe for the Texas Method or does he leave it up to you? If he does prescribe some I would definitely go with those and then work stuff in around them as necessary. If it's too much to handle adding in other stuff you can reduce the volume on stuff like 5x5, but I feel doing programs as planned is generally best as the programmer tends to know what works more than you do (although some modification is necessary and times because everyone is different).

Main problem I have with alternating lifts is that you'll see very slow progress if your goal is to bring up strength. Pair down is probably the best idea, heh.

Ken Manning
07-10-2008, 11:09 AM
My Oly lift numbers are on the lower side as I just started doing them for crossfit this past january and that's after not having done them since college (8 years ago). Anyway, here's where I'm at:

Snatch - 155 (LOTS of form work needed here)
Clean - 205
Clean and jerk - 195
Squat - 285 (Personal best was 355)
DL - 385 (personal best was 435)
OHP - 160 (personal best 170)
Bench press - 205 (was 235 6 months ago before CF)
pullups - 15 at BW (was 19 before CF)
Weighted chin - BW + 120 x 1 (supinated grip)
Dips - not sure, but last fall was BW x 32 and BW+105 x 3

In Rips book he doesn't really lay out a program with exercises because I believe he's assuming that at the intermediate stage one has chosen their direction - powerlifting, oly lifting, bodybuilding, other sports, etc. Now, I chose the Texas Method because it was recommended as the first program to perform in the intermediate stage. I've been training for years, but after college, fell into that very sad state where I was constantly switching programs and ended up just "spinning my tires." I can plainly see that the area I've been most neglecting has been recovery/deload cycles/days in my training career.

Steven, you are probably right in that if I decided to give the Texas method a go that I should pair down the exercises.

Perhaps something like this:

Monday: (heavy 80-85%, moderate volume)

Snatch 5x3
Squat 5x5
Bench press 5x5
Weighted pullups 5x5
OHP 5x5
WOD (fran, grace, etc...)

Wednesday (Light 60-70%, low volume)

OHS 3x8
Front squat (moderate intensity) 3x5
Bench pess 3x5
chinups BW 3x10
OHP 3x5
WOD (cindy, muscle ups, etc...)

Friday (Heavy)

Clean 5x3
Squat work up to 3RM
Bench work up to 3RM
weighted pullups work up to 3RM
OHP work up to 3RM
WOD

Saturday

gynmastics work
oly technique work
perhaps lower intensity wod

Notes:
-for snatch and cleans, I'll go 5x3 week 1, 6x2 week 2, and 7x1 week 3, repeat
-I'll alternate chinups and pullups, so that one version gets 2 weighed days one week and 1 bodyweight only day the next week
-on heavy day 3 (Friday), I'll work up to 3RM week 1, 2RM week 2, and 1RM week 3

Any comments? Would love some feedback.

Oh, and Gant, I live and work on a dairy farm in northeast, PA. We bottle our own milk and make super premium ice cream. I just noticed the little line at then end of your posts regarding cookie dough ice cream. Everything is homemade, even the cookie dough we put in our ice cream. Best stuff on earth!

Steven Low
07-10-2008, 02:41 PM
Try it and see if it works.

If after the first couple weeks you're not making the gains you want then simplify it further by eliminating more stuff until you're making enough progress in the exercises you desire most.

What I tend to do is try to set a few goals... generally 2 pushing, 2 pulling, 2 full body/legs and work everything simultaneously on a full body program (well, Texas is full body so it will work for this too). Has worked fairly well so far.. except the legs cause of my knee. Something you may or may not want to try. :)

Ken Manning
07-10-2008, 02:44 PM
Just realized I left out deadlifts. How on earth could I forget them?? I know Rip advocates only doing 1 work set/week if you're using max weights for the DL.

Perhaps I'll insert DL's on their own day - maybe Tuesday? Monday is a tough workout, but I'm trying to figure where to place them without impeding my max PR efforts on Friday.

Suggestions?

Steven Low
07-10-2008, 02:50 PM
Just realized I left out deadlifts. How on earth could I forget them?? I know Rip advocates only doing 1 work set/week if you're using max weights for the DL.

Perhaps I'll insert DL's on their own day - maybe Tuesday? Monday is a tough workout, but I'm trying to figure where to place them without impeding my max PR efforts on Friday.

Suggestions?
Friday. Perhaps eliminating something or at the end.

Gant Grimes
07-10-2008, 02:57 PM
Great news on the ice cream! I'm very jealous.

Just realized I left out deadlifts. How on earth could I forget them?? I know Rip advocates only doing 1 work set/week if you're using max weights for the DL.

Perhaps I'll insert DL's on their own day - maybe Tuesday? Monday is a tough workout, but I'm trying to figure where to place them without impeding my max PR efforts on Friday.

Suggestions?

I wrote a long post earlier and lost it. I screw it up with the moderating buttons sometimes.

I basically do all those lifts every week. Gymnastics --> OLY --> strength. Three days with metcon, and one long day of pure lifting.

Weekly deadlifts (or DL assistance) is necessary. C&J is a great warmup for DL.

Don't worry about %ages, bodyweight metcon one day, strength the next. Just work the program, and your body will tell you where to go. Try to pick metcon that complements your strength program. If it's heavy but still fast you're good to go.

Derek Heinonen
07-10-2008, 05:00 PM
Excellent posts.

I'm starting my third week of my hybrid program tomorrow. I'm actually preparing for the military (either Ranger School or SFAS, haven't signed anything yet) so I probably fall outside of the intended audience, but increased strength helps everything...especially ruck-marching. My metcons are more sprint/run oriented (working on speed for the APFT) and push-up/pull-up/sit-up tabata intervals.

After 10 weeks of this, I'll probably hit up CFE for a month or so, while continuing to tabata it up.

If anything, it'll make an interesting experiment to see how increased strength + gymnastics works fairs in the military ;)

Thanks for the information / templates.

- D

Peter Dell'Orto
07-10-2008, 07:45 PM
I'm not doing a hybrid program per se, but Gant's gotten me to add more gynmastic progressions to my workouts. I was already mixing up metcons and ME, DE and agility work, isometrics and gymnastics. But now I'm more aware of the importance of progressions of and for gymnastics, and continue to emphasize shorter metcons.

Gant's basically made me feel guilty about not doing more gymnastics, and less guilty about doing short metcons instead of chipper marathons.
:)

Ken Manning
07-11-2008, 04:42 AM
Gymnastics movements currently make up a small percentage of my weekly training because.....they are completely new to me. When I was reading Gant's workout log, I had to google search a few of the movements he listed. Before I even think about progressions, I have to actually learn some of the movements, but am very eager to do so. Anyone know of any good sites/books or other resources that would give some instruction on how to perform some of the basic movements? And perhaps how to "progress" enough to actually include them as a training element?

Ha, just getting into a wall-supported handstand is difficult for me, but that's what my saturday workout is for.

As for my deadlifts, as per Steven's advice I'm going to include them on Friday's workout, working up to 1 heavy set of 5. I'm thinking to save a bit of time, instead of performing the press for a max, I might just add a push press to my cleans.

I'm about to go and perform today's heavy workout and I'm going to finish it with Fran, as I haven't done that one in a while. I'm sure I'll be cursing about my lack of kipping-ability! It's so sad. i can actually perform more dead hang pullups than kipping pullups, as my kipping pullups are more like "wild flailing" pullups. Can't seem to figure out the bottom transition. Got to work on those....

Steven Low
07-11-2008, 09:44 AM
http://www.drillsandskills.com/skills/index
http://www.drillsandskills.com/articles/
http://www.drillsandskills.com/skills/cond

+ other stuff on the sidebar.

Michael Halbfish
09-28-2008, 08:14 AM
Gant,

How are you currently integrating your tabata results with your hybrid program?

Thanks,
Mike

Gant Grimes
10-02-2008, 07:25 AM
No. I've been been on more of a mass gain program. When I was CFing, it was easy to slip some Tabata in there that wasn't affected by a movement in the workout. When you squat, press, clean or snatch every day, it's a little more difficult to Tabata.

If you're on a regular hybrid, you can work it in after your short metcons (or use it as a short metcon one day).

ErikHutson
10-05-2008, 03:42 PM
Hey Gant,


I read the article on the power athletes forum but it didnt really answer my question on how to incorporate CF into a strength training program but perhaps you would answer this or someone more knowledgable could answer it.


Im not new to lifting but have decided to throw out everything I have learned from the past and start new since I am not satisfied with how I am.

My goal is to drop roughly 75 pounds (currently 255) by summer of 2009, but I dont want that skinny fat look so I want to do it right from the get-go.

Like the power forums post suggested my goals are

20+ pounds of fat loss
Be able to do 1 unassisted pullup
Do 30+ pushups in a row (good form)
Bench 225
squat 300 without belt
deadlift 350 without belt



As you can tell from my goals Im a very fat weak guy and Im tired of it! I look strong but when it comes to lifts im as weak as a mouse. My goals are listed in that order, so my top 2 are being able to complete a pullup and drop the fat.

Im in no rush to complete all these in a year as I know it might not be possible but I am wondering what your advice would be to start developing overall great strength, should I just stick to CF for a few months then start working on the bench/squat/dead goals or do a hybrid of SS/CF to begin. With all this information Im just confused on how to develope such a program due to CF's intensity.

Steven Low
10-05-2008, 04:54 PM
Yes, it does.

Strength train.
Then conditioning (which is crossfit).

So do a couple lifts working on strength such as 3x5 or 8x3 or whatever. Then do a short CF/conditioning/HIIT/tabata/whatever.

Simple as that. However, according to your goals this is NOT what you should be doing.

------------------------------------

Weight loss = diet.

You need to mostly work on strength for those goals. You should probably do a linear progression. What are your lift numbers?

ErikHutson
10-05-2008, 08:23 PM
my diet is sound, as Ive been following a paleo'isk type lifestyle with the added brown rice as the only real carb source, which I limit to 1-2 servings of per day.

My lifts are pathetic I have not done these lifts consistantly in years and when I initally lost about 100 pounds I did alot of bw training and little focus on weights.

Bench - 135
Squat - 225
Deadlift - 250


The thing I like about CF is that its in and out, and I have only been doing it for about a week but I like how short it is because I dont have an hour a day to spend in the gym.

Steven Low
10-05-2008, 09:38 PM
I see. Gant's program probably fits you pretty well then. Carry on. :)

ErikHutson
10-05-2008, 10:52 PM
So back to my question, based on my goals would doing a ss/cf hybrid work or should I stick to CF for a few months to gain good functional strength and then advance to a hybrid.

I use to lift for 2 years straight using Different routines and was up to 4 day splits at one point so Im hoping getting back into hardcore lifting would get some muscle memory back since ive been off for a year.

My routine would consist of this, please leave some feedback


Mon- CF
Tues- SS
Wed- rest
Thurs- CF
Fri-CF
Sat-SS
Sun-rest

George Mounce
10-06-2008, 05:08 AM
So back to my question, based on my goals would doing a ss/cf hybrid work or should I stick to CF for a few months to gain good functional strength and then advance to a hybrid.

I use to lift for 2 years straight using Different routines and was up to 4 day splits at one point so Im hoping getting back into hardcore lifting would get some muscle memory back since ive been off for a year.

My routine would consist of this, please leave some feedback


Mon- CF
Tues- SS
Wed- rest
Thurs- CF
Fri-CF
Sat-SS
Sun-rest

If you want strength then train mainly strength and do a couple CF WODs per week. Strength and power will help you way more at the CF WODs then doing the WODs and expecting gains. Plus your numbers are low, so you need to hit it hard with more rest. You also need to eat like a man on death row. Make an hour in the gym, you have it, you just haven't worked your time for it.

This would work better IMHO:

Mon- SS
Tues- SS + 10 min CF WOD
Wed- rest
Thurs- SS
Fri- SS + 10 min CF WOD
Sat- rest/skill work
Sun- rest

or

Mon- SS
Tues- 10 min CF WOD
Wed- SS
Thurs- 10 min CF WOD
Fri- SS
Sat- rest/skill work
Sun- rest

This thread may help you as well: http://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=20170&highlight=starting+strength

Gant Grimes
10-06-2008, 08:31 PM
Erik, there are a lot of things at work here. It's impossible to know everything that's going on from a couple posts on the Internet, so forgive me if this seems blunt.

You're a novice. You're a novice lifter, and you're a novice eater. And that's good news!

Anything will work for you, SS, CF, a hybrid, Steve's stuff, George's stuff. You could do a Nautilus circuit and improve because you haven't begun to maximize your linear gain potential. Two years of lifting with one year off is not enough time to build a strength base. You will start anew.

If you're asking me, I'd say go SS. It's simple, it's effective, and it will improve your strength to bodyweight ratio faster than anything else will. Since you'll only be training 3 times per week, you'll have extra time to read about nutrition (if you have 20 pounds of fat to lose, your diet is more "-ish" than Paleo), think about your goals, and get some ideas for programming. Add in a short metcon session in week 4, another in week 7, and a third in week 10.

You really have to be able to make sense of this stuff before you apply it to your situation. Get rid of this training ADD. Pick a program, start from the beginning, and move straight ahead. Pick something and stick with it for 12 weeks.

ErikHutson
10-06-2008, 09:11 PM
Erik, there are a lot of things at work here. It's impossible to know everything that's going on from a couple posts on the Internet, so forgive me if this seems blunt.

You're a novice. You're a novice lifter, and you're a novice eater. And that's good news!

Anything will work for you, SS, CF, a hybrid, Steve's stuff, George's stuff. You could do a Nautilus circuit and improve because you haven't begun to maximize your linear gain potential. Two years of lifting with one year off is not enough time to build a strength base. You will start anew.

If you're asking me, I'd say go SS. It's simple, it's effective, and it will improve your strength to bodyweight ratio faster than anything else will. Since you'll only be training 3 times per week, you'll have extra time to read about nutrition (if you have 20 pounds of fat to lose, your diet is more "-ish" than Paleo), think about your goals, and get some ideas for programming. Add in a short metcon session in week 4, another in week 7, and a third in week 10.

You really have to be able to make sense of this stuff before you apply it to your situation. Get rid of this training ADD. Pick a program, start from the beginning, and move straight ahead. Pick something and stick with it for 12 weeks.

EXCELLENT advice Gant, I do have ADD when it comes to working out.


I initally weighed 300 pounds but dropped to around 185 last year and after an injury gained half of the weight I lost back. So I know a little about nutrition but not as much as I would like to :D.

Im also going to be taking BJJ In january so I think I will take your advice and do SS and work on Metcons until switching over to more CF in January for BJJ

When picking out the Metcon's how short should I work for? 5-10min? also, should I incorporate these inbetween my SS session or do them same day?

thanks for all the advice Im looking forward to all my new gains in strength :D

Anton Emery
10-10-2008, 08:14 AM
Erik,

I am on Week 3 of Starting Strength and can't recommend it enough. If i were you i might think about just doing that and no met con's for a while. Be conservative with your starting weights so you don't get stuck quickly, add weight to the bar every workout, and eat alot. You can always get back to your Met Con's later. Plus when you start BJJ the extra strength will help. And you'll get a decent conditioning benefit from just grappling. I do BJJ as well, and have just been rolling a few times a week in addition to SS. My conditioning is not quite as good due to all the food i have been shoveling in, but its good enough.

I think if you get alot stronger and then go back to CF you will notice a big improvement.


Anton

Kris Fischer
11-03-2008, 08:31 AM
Okay, so I'm ready to try out some hybrid-ing.

I need to tweak Grant's novice template a bit to account for schedule and equipment and I'd really appreciate some feedback. I'm not too smart on programming yet and donít want to screw up a good thing.

I have full gym access on M,T,W,R (basically a globo, no platforms or bumpers or anything cool).
On alternating F & Sat, I can work out in a small gym with limited equipment (no rack, basically just barbell with limited weights and some dumbbells).

Looking at Grant's novice template, I can't really do any of the days in the small gym. Because of lack of weights, the only listed exercises I could try and do are P-Sn, Press, OHS (I have enough weight to work 3x5 in these, but not for long). I can put together some WODs in this gym though (limited b/c no pull up bar, limited weights, etc.)

I guess the programming questions are:

* What days of the week should I train? Better to do MTW (F or Sat) or MTR (F or S)? Or possibly alternate weekly based on my alternating F/Sat?

* What exercises should I do when? Does the order of Grant's "days" matter? If I just do skill work/WOD on the F/Sat days, should I add on exercises to the three weekdays I'll be training or just drop a lift or two? What can I drop besides OHS? Or should I rearrange the days and do the lifts I can on F/Sat days?

* Am I completely overthinking this and should I just shut up and train??:D :D

Gavin Harrison
11-03-2008, 09:09 AM
Kris,

The order of the days in Gant's program is significant only within the context of the program. For instance, BS->OHS->FS/DL->OFF->BS, the OHS squat day and FS is most likely to allow for enough recovery for the DLs on W and BS again on Friday. If you can only go to the gym 3 days/week you might just want to do whatever you feel like in that time, lift heavy, etc, and on the other days do body weight strength / metcon work, one legged squats, push up variations, gymnastic progressions, pull ups, etc. Just experiment, use the time you have in and out of the gym to try to figure out what works for you. If you're doing a lot of BW stuff out of the gym, you might want to focus on pulling at lot in the gym (DL/Rows/Cleans/Pull Ups/etc), since outside of the gym it's often easier to find a place to push (the ground) than pull (a bar) yourself. But make sure you're squatting, benching, and pressing in the gym, as well..

Kris Fischer
11-03-2008, 01:53 PM
The order of the days in Gant's program is significant only within the context of the program.

Good point Gavin, that makes sense.

do body weight strength / metcon work, one legged squats, push up variations, gymnastic progressions, pull ups, etc.

Good idea about bw strength moves too, thanks.

Ok, so this is what I'm thinking about (stolen mostly from Gant's answer to a similar q in the sister thread on crossfit):

M: FL, HPC (5x2), BS (3x5), WOD
T: HS, PC (5x2), FS (3x5), DL (3x5), weighted pullups (3x5)
R: FL, Press (3x5), PSn (5x2), BS (3x5), WOD
F (or S): HS, long cycle c&j (with DB?) (4-6 mins), light to moderate metcon (7-20) mins

Warming up, then doing the same weight each set (as opposed to working up). Going up 5lbs each week until stalling then mess w/ sets and reps.
That sound about right?

Gant Grimes
11-04-2008, 06:18 AM
Okay, so I'm ready to try out some hybrid-ing.

I need to tweak Grant's novice template a bit to account for schedule and equipment and I'd really appreciate some feedback. I'm not too smart on programming yet and donít want to screw up a good thing.

Buy and read "Practical Programming." My templates are just that, templates. The sets/reps prescriptions were were made for a very generic population. If you're just starting out, they'll be fine. However, you should be studying this stuff over a 12-week cycle so you know what to do next.

What days of the week should I train? Better to do MTW (F or Sat) or MTR (F or S)? Or possibly alternate weekly based on my alternating F/Sat?

It doesn't matter. I do MTW-F. I do judo on Thursday evenings and some judo/JJ on Saturdays. I'm active throughout the weekend, though.

What exercises should I do when? Does the order of Grant's "days" matter? If I just do skill work/WOD on the F/Sat days, should I add on exercises to the three weekdays I'll be training or just drop a lift or two? What can I drop besides OHS? Or should I rearrange the days and do the lifts I can on F/Sat days?

The days don't matter (unless you're going straight heavy on all exercises (as opposed to DE days--if you don't know, don't worry)). The order of exercises does.

Skill --> Burst (plyo) --> Explosive lift --> Strength lift (squatting --> pressing --> pulling) --> metcon --> isometric*

*Some do iso before metcon. I don't before most of my iso work taxes the hell out of my trunk, which I frequently need during metcon.

If you just do skill work one day of the week, you'll be fine with three days of lifting. If you're just starting, you would also benefit from three days of SS and one day of skill work.

]Am I completely overthinking this and should I just shut up and train??:D :D

Not completely. It's always good to be thinking, but not at the expense of training.

Gant Grimes
11-04-2008, 06:29 AM
Kris,

The order of the days in Gant's program is significant only within the context of the program. For instance, BS->OHS->FS/DL->OFF->BS, the OHS squat day and FS is most likely to allow for enough recovery for the DLs on W and BS again on Friday. If you can only go to the gym 3 days/week you might just want to do whatever you feel like in that time, lift heavy, etc, and on the other days do body weight strength / metcon work, one legged squats, push up variations, gymnastic progressions, pull ups, etc. Just experiment, use the time you have in and out of the gym to try to figure out what works for you. If you're doing a lot of BW stuff out of the gym, you might want to focus on pulling at lot in the gym (DL/Rows/Cleans/Pull Ups/etc), since outside of the gym it's often easier to find a place to push (the ground) than pull (a bar) yourself. But make sure you're squatting, benching, and pressing in the gym, as well..

That's pretty much it. Of course what you want/what works for you should include squatting, pressing, and pulling.

Gant Grimes
11-04-2008, 06:35 AM
The order of the days optimizes recovery based on that program.

Ok, so this is what I'm thinking about (stolen mostly from Gant's answer to a similar q in the sister thread on crossfit):

M: FL, HPC (5x2), BS (3x5), WOD
T: HS, PC (5x2), FS (3x5), DL (3x5), weighted pullups (3x5)
R: FL, Press (3x5), PSn (5x2), BS (3x5), WOD
F (or S): HS, long cycle c&j (with DB?) (4-6 mins), light to moderate metcon (7-20) mins

Warming up, then doing the same weight each set (as opposed to working up). Going up 5lbs each week until stalling then mess w/ sets and reps.
That sound about right?

I don't know what that program was. It looks like a program I might have recommended for someone with specific goals and time/equipment restraints).

But it looks nice three-day lifting program. I'd make the following changes:
M: alt a snatch variation with a clean variation each week
T: change DL to 1x5 or 1x3
R+: change order to FL*, PSN, BS, Press, WOD

+: I'm suspicious of this. I don't know the context of that post, but I can't believe I would've recommended that order.

*: I always used FL as a skill, and they never hurt my workouts. It's actually an iso exercise and should be put last if it's affecting your workout.

Kris Fischer
11-04-2008, 01:05 PM
Gant thanks so much for replying even though I botched your name in my first post :eek:

Good to hear the MTW vs MTR doesn't matter that much, I'll probably end up switching back and forth to play in a semi-regular basketball game anyway.

Buy and read "Practical Programming." My templates are just that, templates. The sets/reps prescriptions were were made for a very generic population. If you're just starting out, they'll be fine. However, you should be studying this stuff over a 12-week cycle so you know what to do next.

Done.

I don't know what that program was. It looks like a program I might have recommended for someone with specific goals and time/equipment restraints).

Here is a link if you are curious (posts 195-96): http://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=32641&page=20 (wfs). Basically a guy asked about structuring a 4 day intermediate program and I tried to combine your response to him with my needs and this is what came out.

But it looks nice three-day lifting program. I'd make the following changes:
Done, done, and done.

That response above is where I got the idea to structure it 3 days lifting and the 4th day skill/lccj/wod. First time I actually heard of KB lccj and after reading up a bit it looks pretty good-- just don't have any KBs.
Anybody have thoughts on doing it with DBs? Or should I just muck around with some tabata or sprints or bodyweight strength or something before doing the WOD that day?

Thanks again for all the great info thats been posted on this and the advice on my particular program.

Brandon Oto
11-05-2008, 06:24 PM
I like DBs a lot for metcons and not as much for strength.

Brian Wilson
12-22-2008, 01:39 PM
I'm doing the Tabata protocol, made some good gains initially, but things seem to be flattening out recently. I'm making gains in the first round or two, but then things dive precipitously.

wfs Brian PCF Workout Blog (http://brianpcf.wordpress.com)

Garrett Smith
12-22-2008, 01:56 PM
+1 to Brandon's statement.

I think DB Thrusters are magnitudes better than with a BB, for example.

Jonathan Limbird
11-06-2009, 05:27 AM
Is there anyway we can this thread name edited? I think many people look for it, but have trouble searching it out with the mis-spelling.

Gant Grimes
11-06-2009, 05:32 AM
Yes.

Jonathan Limbird
11-06-2009, 11:14 AM
Thanks Gant. And thanks for all the work you've done here.

Mark Diffley
12-30-2009, 06:00 AM
Sorry if I missed this as I was reading through this thread, but based on your programming template, do you stay with those same Oly lifts and strength lifts week to week? I noticed in your training log you change it up frequently it seems. Are you arbitrarily decided which lift to do or is there some logical progression? If you should be mixing it up, how often should I repeat that particular lift?

I was planning on trying the intermediate strength bias for 12 weeks, but just wanted some clarification.

Thank you.

-Mark

Gant Grimes
01-04-2010, 02:32 PM
My log differed from the template because of some different things I was trying to do at the time.

I liked the program, and it did a lot of people some good, but I would offer an even simpler version at this point.

For GPP:

M: Snatch, Bench (or push press), Squat
T: Plyo, SM implements, sprints
W: rest
R: Clean, Press, Deadlift
F: skill, stretch, prowler/sled stuff

*for 5-days, add W: skill work, sprints; rest R and train F and S.

Use OLY progressions for the OLY lifts.

For the slow lifts, do 3x5 as a novice and 5/3/1 as an intermediate. If you get stale after a couple years, do 3x12, 3x10, 3x8, 3x6 for three weeks at a time and reset.

I never wrote the article for PM because I didn't want to add to the signal-to-noise ratio on the interwebs. CFFB and CFSB came out several months after the hybrid program and offered more specialized programming with more support.

Brian Stone
01-06-2010, 08:40 AM
I was going to inquire about this, actually, and whether you still felt the same way about this program with more recent perspective. This looks similar to what Justin posted over on 70sbig recently. I felt that conditioning work was missing from SS but that 5/3/1 was a slow progression, since I'm still novice. This is more like SS w/ conditioning, so I'm going to attempt something similar to this going forward. Cheers!

Gant Grimes
01-06-2010, 08:58 AM
I was going to inquire about this, actually, and whether you still felt the same way about this program with more recent perspective. This looks similar to what Justin posted over on 70sbig recently. I felt that conditioning work was missing from SS but that 5/3/1 was a slow progression, since I'm still novice. This is more like SS w/ conditioning, so I'm going to attempt something similar to this going forward. Cheers!

Justin's program evolved from training people in the gym by taking the retarded things out of CF. Mine evolved from training for strength, power, and conditioning for a sport with a lot of GPP overlap. We also see each other every day or so and agree on most aspects of physical training. It's no surprise that they look similar.

I still like my original program, but I was looking for something different then. The conditioning was short but demanding, so I developed a good conditioning base without wasting my muscle. The strength work was good but fairly low volume, so I was strong but not big.

Justin's program isn't designed to deliver any specific conditioning. The conditioning is intentionally limited to maximize strength gains. Mine differs because I have to have the conditioning. Because of my age and activity level, I'm not able to squat 3x5 (or the Texas Method stuff). 5/3/1 works for me because I can hit it once a week and still get good volume on the AMRAP set, thus I'm getting a little more growth than I was on my earlier program.

When designing a mixed program, you have to understand how volume and intensity--not just rep ranges--affect strength and growth. For the short course on periodization and design, go to TMuscle and read everything Jack Reape has written.

BTW, conditioning is not missing from SS. The program is designed to get you stronger and bigger, not fitter. Conditioning will stretch our your linear progression.

5/3/1 can be used for novices or intermediates, but it is not a linear program. You won't get as strong as fast. But, at this point, if I can add 50-60 pounds a year in each lift, I'm happy.

Brian Stone
01-06-2010, 09:48 AM
BTW, conditioning is not missing from SS. The program is designed to get you stronger and bigger, not fitter. Conditioning will stretch our your linear progression. Point taken. I didn't mean to imply it was missing so much that the agressive linear progression didn't leave me with any energy to do conditioning work without sacrificing energy for the big lifts, which were the main focus.

My experience with SS is that, after several week, I noticed that I was short of breath doing what for me has always been pretty rudimentary physical stuff, which I would imagine is the side effect of any linear strength-centric program. 5/3/1 allowed a lot more time/energy for conditioning, but in my opinion at too great a cost to progress in strength. I'm searching out a happy medium; I want to solid strength progression without wheezing every time I walk a few flights of stairs or help move a dresser.

The other observation, for me, is that SS is a lot of stress on my bones and joints without the deload. By week 8, my body was in rough shape, so a month of 5/3/1 following that was the reprieve that I needed. I'm going to make sure to do deload as needed here.

I'll check out the articles. Thanks for the info.
-Brian

Gant Grimes
01-06-2010, 12:43 PM
SS can be rough. If you need a deload, take it. 3 weeks on, 1 week 50%.

Having a decent amount of GPP will actually help you get through your workout. Hammer a tire and drag a sled on Wed. Flip the tire and push a prowler on Fri. Your GPP will be fine.

Gavin Harrison
01-06-2010, 11:19 PM
Hey guys, I just figured I'd share my experience with SS and 5/3/1, since I've ran both for a while each. For me starting strength is fun, but brutal. I say fun, because I enjoy lifting heavy (for me). I say brutal because, if I nearly got buried under say 200x5x3 one day, two days later I'd be dreading the 205x5x3. I guess it's more of mental thing, but still.

On the other hand, 5/3/1 is fun, but less mentally brutal. The heavy lifting is still very much a part of the program. However, I like the cycling. Lifting a heavier weight with a goal of achieving fewer reps prepares you mentally for what the weight will feel like later when you're expected to lift it for more reps. Also, if I lift a weight and it's brutal, but in the next cycle I hit the weight for reps fairly easily, it's very rewarding. It kind of keeps a weight from getting in your head. Constantly hitting rep/weight PRs helps the mental aspect too.

Another thing to note: because of my schedule, I don't really have time to do a plan similar to a bill starr 5x5 or texas method. That one volume day of squat, bench, deadlift wouldn't fit into any sort of day, usually. Also, I have to work out Mon,Wed,Thurs or Mon,Tues,Thurs... (ie, I have mon-thurs for traning). This kind of restricts full body only routines to either 2 days heavy full-body sets-method (SS, etc) programming, or 4 days Bob Peoples/Pavel like programming, or a split. I'm choosing to do 5/3/1 as written for 3 days/week.

I'm still a novice, due to my on/off working out and programming hopping... but I'm trying to break that. My plan and goal for 2010 is to follow 5/3/1. I think I can hit some very good training numbers by the end of the year, and beyond.

Tim Luby
01-11-2010, 10:25 AM
How exactly does the 5/3/1 work? Same weight across sets?

Alex Bond
01-11-2010, 10:26 AM
How exactly does the 5/3/1 work? Same weight across sets?

http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/how_to_build_pure_strength

Read this.

Tim Luby
01-11-2010, 10:52 AM
http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/how_to_build_pure_strength

Read this.

Excellent. Thanks!

henry whitaker
01-20-2010, 01:47 PM
Gant,

What would be a good oly template to use in conjunction with 5/3/1 with this type of program? I have long been following the hybrid-type programming that you outlined a while back, but have always struggled with the oly portion of the program once getting beyond the novice stage.



My log differed from the template because of some different things I was trying to do at the time.

I liked the program, and it did a lot of people some good, but I would offer an even simpler version at this point.

For GPP:

M: Snatch, Bench (or push press), Squat
T: Plyo, SM implements, sprints
W: rest
R: Clean, Press, Deadlift
F: skill, stretch, prowler/sled stuff

*for 5-days, add W: skill work, sprints; rest R and train F and S.

Use OLY progressions for the OLY lifts.

For the slow lifts, do 3x5 as a novice and 5/3/1 as an intermediate. If you get stale after a couple years, do 3x12, 3x10, 3x8, 3x6 for three weeks at a time and reset.

I never wrote the article for PM because I didn't want to add to the signal-to-noise ratio on the interwebs. CFFB and CFSB came out several months after the hybrid program and offered more specialized programming with more support.

Gant Grimes
01-21-2010, 06:16 PM
Gant,

What would be a good oly template to use in conjunction with 5/3/1 with this type of program? I have long been following the hybrid-type programming that you outlined a while back, but have always struggled with the oly portion of the program once getting beyond the novice stage.

That depends what priority you put on the OLY lifts. Are you using them simply to develop more explosive power, or do you actually want to get good at them? We're talking about a time commitment here. E.g., I can move a decent amount of weight, but I don't do them well at all. They help with with explosive power, but not as much as if I spent more time on them.

henry whitaker
01-22-2010, 03:19 PM
I'm trying to use them to develop explosive power. Sure, I'd like to get good at them, but I don't think I can spend more than one or so days a week training C&J and Sn respectively and recover from everything else I'm doing. I've seen some Oly periodization templates on their own, but they seem to be for people who just pretty much care about increasing their oly totals.

What interested me about the template you proposed is that it seems like a way to periodize for the slow lifts while maintaining GPP, hopefully with the goal of making slow steady gains in strength, which is just fine with me. I was just asking whether you (or anyone else) had a suggestion for a template that will do that for the oly lifts too in the context of the type of program you propose. I am a recovering CrossFitter and trying to get away from the "do random workouts and hope it works" approach to training.

That depends what priority you put on the OLY lifts. Are you using them simply to develop more explosive power, or do you actually want to get good at them? We're talking about a time commitment here. E.g., I can move a decent amount of weight, but I don't do them well at all. They help with with explosive power, but not as much as if I spent more time on them.

Alex Bond
01-23-2010, 02:49 AM
I'm trying to use them to develop explosive power. Sure, I'd like to get good at them, but I don't think I can spend more than one or so days a week training C&J and Sn respectively and recover from everything else I'm doing. I've seen some Oly periodization templates on their own, but they seem to be for people who just pretty much care about increasing their oly totals.

What interested me about the template you proposed is that it seems like a way to periodize for the slow lifts while maintaining GPP, hopefully with the goal of making slow steady gains in strength, which is just fine with me. I was just asking whether you (or anyone else) had a suggestion for a template that will do that for the oly lifts too in the context of the type of program you propose. I am a recovering CrossFitter and trying to get away from the "do random workouts and hope it works" approach to training.

If you don't care about your oly numbers themselves, there are lots of ways of developing explosive power besides the olys which may require less technique work and total time and effort. For example, I don't think the snatch is that functional in ways, since it demands so much specialized technique work to get it right. Obviously a snatch demands explosiveness, body control, etc, but if I want to develop all those qualities, would it be faster and easier to do it by getting my snatch to X# or by getting my speed squat to Y# at high speed, or my power clean+push press to Z#? This is a question you have to answer for yourself. Personally, I don't think I'll be doing snatches, except when a meet I want to be in is upcoming, for a while. They just require too much technique time to get right. Think about speed squats and DLs, power cleans/snatches and push presses as opposed to the classic olys, or the explosive strongman movements. Or maybe the olys work great for you, but try it out.

Strength comes first. Unless you are already quite strong, get your squat, press, bench, and deadlift up first, and let the explosiveness take care of itself as you put 100# on your squat.

Daniel Schenck
01-23-2010, 10:24 AM
I tried 5/3/1 but found it actually took more out of me (I did the 4 day a week version, so maybe that's why), and the AMRAP made it hard to plan my training/progression. What I've been doing now is Texas Method, but keeping the volume days at 3x5 (rather than 5x5), and doing 5/3/1 on the heavy day (without the AMRAP of course). That saves me time on volume day and helps my recovery, too. I think it would be easy enough to throw some GPP in on the light day, or on a separate day.

Gant Grimes
01-25-2010, 07:21 AM
I'm trying to use them to develop explosive power. Sure, I'd like to get good at them, but I don't think I can spend more than one or so days a week training C&J and Sn respectively and recover from everything else I'm doing. I've seen some Oly periodization templates on their own, but they seem to be for people who just pretty much care about increasing their oly totals.

What interested me about the template you proposed is that it seems like a way to periodize for the slow lifts while maintaining GPP, hopefully with the goal of making slow steady gains in strength, which is just fine with me. I was just asking whether you (or anyone else) had a suggestion for a template that will do that for the oly lifts too in the context of the type of program you propose. I am a recovering CrossFitter and trying to get away from the "do random workouts and hope it works" approach to training.

If you really suck at the lifts, do moderate intensity, high volume, e.g. doubles at 75-85%. If you're decent, you can ratchet up the intensity and mix singles and doubles. You'll just have to find a mix that works for you. Vary the intensity and vary the rest between lifts.

Not trying to duck the answer, but it's an individual thing. That's a big reason I do power cleans and snatches.

Gant Grimes
01-25-2010, 07:24 AM
I tried 5/3/1 but found it actually took more out of me (I did the 4 day a week version, so maybe that's why), and the AMRAP made it hard to plan my training/progression. What I've been doing now is Texas Method, but keeping the volume days at 3x5 (rather than 5x5), and doing 5/3/1 on the heavy day (without the AMRAP of course). That saves me time on volume day and helps my recovery, too. I think it would be easy enough to throw some GPP in on the light day, or on a separate day.

There will be some tailoring at the intermediate level. I would hesitate to take the volume out of volume day, though on the Texas Method.

On my 531, I took the AMRAP out of week 2 on squats and deads (I may still change wk2 DL to rack pulls). I just do 3s and walk. I still get some benefit, and I recover better for the heavy week.

matthew brewster
03-30-2010, 06:45 AM
Hi Folks
This is my first post but ive been a long time lurker,
I just have a question with regards to using this template to get my fitness back to where it was 18 months ago prior to an SI joint injury and generally feeling very beaten up from a combination of self programming too many chipper metcons and using poor technique to get good times on main page workouts.

so its time to begin again.

I would like to use the template to improve my fitness for job related performance as a Firefighter.

Im just wondering if a ten min metcon will be sufficient for my needs as most of my work seems to be in the 15 - 30 min range of hard slog, and i still have an annual fitness test to pass so i need good cardio as a priority although strength is still very important just secondary to my needs ( is this one of the stages of a recovering metcon junkie :eek: ???),
Would i be better increasing the motcon time to around 15 - 20 mins or just
working with the 10 min window and adding a day of sprints and maybe 1 long metcon in the 20 min range ?

stats to give you an idea of were im at currently

male 30 years old 98kg (yep if got fat as well as lazy)
military press - 72.5 kg
Dead lift -155 kg
C & j 75 kg
b squat 120 kg
f squat 100 kg
snatch 50 kg

500m row 1.33
2000 m row 7.25


many thanks
Matt

Jay Guindon
12-24-2010, 03:09 PM
Hey Gant, you mentioned you never published the hybrid program for the PM because CrossFit Football and CrossFit Strength Bias came out shortly after.
I also noticed that for not being CrossFit, your program makes people better at all the things CrossFit is designed for i.e. random physical tasks, unknown/unknowable, GPP, etc.
For "off the shelf" programming would you reccommend CrossFit Football as close to you hybrid program? (obviously it lacks the static gymnastic work, but seems to be quite similar in other respects)
I have been doing Gymnastic Bodies for the past year and a bit but am starting to miss the variety of mixed programs. I've been looking at CFFB and like it but also like the hybrid program. the draw of CFFB though is that it requires no thought, I just grab the WOD for the day. So I guess what I'm getting at is if CFFB is in your opinion as effective as your hybrid program has been?