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Richard Vaccari
12-13-2006, 12:27 PM
Does anyone have any advice on how to incorporate O lifting and Crossfit training so as not to overtrain.

I am a UK Masters lifter with best snatch of 98kg and C & D of 138kg

However in order to compete i find myself cutting right back on my crossfit training

Any Advice?

Thanks

Rick

Greg Everett
12-13-2006, 01:19 PM
Honestly any dose of CF will interfere with your lifting in my opinion. The question I think that needs to be answered is where do CF and competitive weightlifting rank respectively on your priority list. That is, are you willing to lose some of your lifting ability in order to develop some CF style fitness? In my experience, the only people who continue to progress with the lifts while doing CF are those who have no previous experience with the lifts and therefore have an extremely entry level starting point. Seasoned lifters, however, see their progress stall or even regress as they add in CF to their training.

If you want to try to balance the two, I would suggest limiting your CF training to 2 days/week and reducing your lifting training to a lower volume, higher loading approach 3-4 days/week. Try dropping in some CF workouts after your lifting on those 2 days to give you a few genuine rest days. Unless you're from outer space or are related to Mister X, you'll find it pretty easy to do way to much work for your body to handle.

Ron Nelson
12-13-2006, 02:22 PM
Greg,
Good post, but it brings up something I'm curious about and I think you'll know the answer to:
How does a O-lift coach, like Mike Burgener, find a way to include CF in training his athletes? Better yet, does he include it at all?

Everytime I check the Mike's Gym site, his WOD's involve working the O-lifts to max's or some rep work on supporting lifts. Am I off base here?

I also found his silence in the whole Mike Boyle blow-up to be curious as he is a proponent of CF and O-lifts, and presumably high-rep O-lift workouts (like Grace).

I know you can't totally speak for the man, but any insights would be helpful.

Greg Everett
12-13-2006, 02:31 PM
Burgener's lifters do not participate in CF training. It's 100% lifting, and he'll be the first to tell you that CF is detrimental to lifting performance (as would be any other non-lifting-specific training with any kind of real physical demands--not meant to pick on CF here). He really only uses CF-style training with his high school PE kids or non-weightlifter athletes. His WOD is a clear example of this.

I hesitate to pick on him, but Josh Everett is a good example of the effects of CF training on lifting. Josh is a remarkably strong guy (split snatches 115, split clean and jerks 160 or so I believe). But the more CF he does, the worse his lifts get. He's simply not able to hit the numbers he could before. It's a conscious decision he's made, of course, to place priority on CF over lifting.

Hopefully Burgener and Josh will chime in here so I'm not speaking for them entirely.

Steve Shafley
12-13-2006, 05:27 PM
I've considered questions like this quite a bit.

For a strength-athlete, like a powerlifter, thrower, or olympic lifter, I'd like to think you need to tailor the XF style work towards accessory movement circuits...things that are going to complement your lifting, not erode it.

An example for a powerlifter who is weak at the start of the deadlift:

Deadlift: Up to maximal single for that day

Accessory Circuit:

Snatch grip high pulls from the floor
Zercher squats from pin
Glute/Ham raises

Sets of 3 for the SGHPs
Sets of 5 for the ZS
Sets of 5-8 for the GHRs

Start the circuit moderately light and work up until you are a few reps within your repetition maximums for those movements given the state of fatigue.

Rest about 1 minute in between movements in the circuit. Go for 3-5 circuits.

You get your strength work in. You also will get some systemic conditioning from the circuit, as well as work on the deficits you are interested in correcting.

As you get closer to competition, you start eliminating those movements that are either stale or you are no longer interested in.

mike burgener
12-13-2006, 05:55 PM
I love crossfit!! i like what it does for my athletes and my students. but i do not use crossfit with my competitive weightlifters. now having said this, i will and have used crossfit with these athletes during the summer. for example sage will and h as done "dating sage" fight gone bad, etc, etc....but far enough away from a major competition that its not an issue. my lifters, snatch, clean and jerk, back sqt, front sqt....and work on any weaknesses they might have. hope this helps.

Mike ODonnell
12-13-2006, 06:03 PM
I think Dan John said in one of his articles once "If you want to get better at throwing, then throw..." (pardon if I did not get the quote right). But that applies to anything from OLY, to Hockey, to Chess, to whatever. If you want to lift heavy....you lift heavy. Cross training is always good...but will not max out one goal...you may give up endurance for a while, but that is not your goal at this time.

Eva Claire Synkowski
12-13-2006, 06:33 PM
richard, did you see this thread (re: strength vs gpp)?
http://www.performancemenu.com/forum/showthread.php?t=231

a bit of a different angle, but likely of some interest to you.

Ron Nelson
12-13-2006, 09:55 PM
Greg, Coach B, Steve,
All great replies. Not being a competitive lifter, I can easily use CF work as my metcon training while I continue to work on my foundational strength.

Thanks for answering my questions regarding these issues.

Allen Yeh
12-14-2006, 05:33 AM
Greg, Coach B, Steve,
All great replies. Not being a competitive lifter, I can easily use CF work as my metcon training while I continue to work on my foundational strength.

Thanks for answering my questions regarding these issues.

Ditto on the thanks from me.

Richard Vaccari
12-14-2006, 05:34 AM
Thank you all for your input

josh everett
12-14-2006, 04:31 PM
Greg Is right & wrong about me. 1 he is right in that i have chosen fitness over being the best weightlifter I can be. I crossfit & run much more than anyone serious about being a competitive weightlifter should. Also at my hieght I should be lifting in the 94k class, I choose to lift in the 85k class and i ussually only weigh about 82k. I'm unwilling to gain wt to be a better lifter. I do not like the way my body feels when I'm over 85k.
He is wrong in saying crossfitting is bringing my lifts down. a few years ago i hit a then pr of 120k in the sn after several months of crossfitting and almost no o-lifts. I've since hit 122.5k. I have been really struggling with snatches the last 9 months or so but I believe it's a technichal error/mental issue. My C&J has been better than ever during this same time frame, no PR's but I've made 145+ a ton of times in practice and this is a wt I could only hit in meets previously.
I have reached a level in o-lifting where I need to constantly specilaize if I want to make progress. I beleive my potential in o-lifts is about 130/170. I got 9th or 10th at this years national championships(without giving up any fitness)...if I reached my potential I might move up to like 7th(in a country that stinks at weightlifting). Not worth it to me to give up so much of my fitness. Besides crossfit, kettlebells, hills, bleachers, sprints are just so much fun.

Greg Everett
12-14-2006, 04:39 PM
My bad. Never claimed to have a stellar memory...

The question then would be what does your training week/month look like? That is, how frequently are you CFing and how frequently are you lifting, and what do each of those things consist of?

josh everett
12-14-2006, 07:44 PM
basically I workout mtwth and sat
monday thru thursday consists of about 45-60min of o-lifting(lifts & assistance movements) with rotating in stuff like HSPU, KB's, bent rows, dips, DB incline, glute-hams, ect changing up my exercises on top of o-lifting every 8-10 weeks.
saturdays are heavy sn, C&J, squat
after lifting:mon & wed is generally track workouts(400's, or 300's, or 200's), or hill sprints or bleachers, or a crossfit WOD
After lifting T&TH is generally agility & short sprints
Fridays sometimes I play pick-up basketball or run a few 100's or rest if I'm worn out from the week.
A few weeks out of the year I'll exclusively follow the wod. 1 week out from "big" meets I'll drop running & CF.

Mike ODonnell
12-14-2006, 08:00 PM
I got tired just reading Josh's activity post......wow.

Russell Greene
12-14-2006, 08:13 PM
It's interesting to me that the core of Josh's routine seems to be more traditional lifting and sprints, with Crossfit WOD's thrown in at the end. I have been also leaning towards this direction in the past year.

Jonathan Owen
12-15-2006, 06:37 AM
I have been trying to figure out the balance between o-lifting and cf for a month and a half. Its great to hear the experience of more advanced/experienced athletes. This is going to really help me with establishing my priorities.

Coach Rutherford
12-15-2006, 09:06 AM
I'm an old guy lifter too. I had reasonable success incorporating my GPP (CrossFit) with a 3x week weightlifting program. In retrospect, I believe I compromised my weightlifting performance a little bit. I was on the edge of OT for four weeks, but was very good with my lifestyle contributors. I went to bed and consumed quality food. This year my GPP will be much abbreviated and my lifting sessions will be increased.

Ron Nelson
12-15-2006, 10:12 AM
I like Rut's approach, especially as a fellow old guy lifter. My problem is I started a lot later in life than he, so I have a load of catch-up work ahead.
I'm starting to find that mixing in my GPP (as either CF or sprints) has helped me build my strength base.

Of course, if I had half of Josh's energy or strength, I'd rule in the Magic Kingdom. I remember watching him knock out a Fran in the time it would take me to do 10 thrusters. Pretty humbling, to say the least.

Mark Joseph Limbaga
12-15-2006, 06:09 PM
My 2 cents..

If you're preparing for a meet, keep your CF WODs to a maximum of once a week. In your off-season time, you can do more WODs as you please.

Greg Everett
12-15-2006, 06:13 PM
Bottom line is that there's no single formula that will work across the board. It will have to be modified according to each individual's work capacity/recovery ability. A guy like Josh can clearly handle a huge workload successfully. Others would get buried by a schedule like that. How much you can handle is something you have to find out through experimentation.

Allen Yeh
12-18-2006, 03:30 AM
basically I workout mtwth and sat
monday thru thursday consists of about 45-60min of o-lifting(lifts & assistance movements) with rotating in stuff like HSPU, KB's, bent rows, dips, DB incline, glute-hams, ect changing up my exercises on top of o-lifting every 8-10 weeks.
saturdays are heavy sn, C&J, squat
after lifting:mon & wed is generally track workouts(400's, or 300's, or 200's), or hill sprints or bleachers, or a crossfit WOD
After lifting T&TH is generally agility & short sprints
Fridays sometimes I play pick-up basketball or run a few 100's or rest if I'm worn out from the week.
A few weeks out of the year I'll exclusively follow the wod. 1 week out from "big" meets I'll drop running & CF.


Wow...this makes me tired just looking at it!

Robb Wolf
12-18-2006, 03:47 PM
Great thread! Thank you everyone.