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Timothy Holmes
06-14-2008, 11:42 PM
I have trouble sleeping lately. No severely troubled, it's just been hard. I've only just starting fasting, it also happens when I'm substantially hypocaloric. I don't feel hungry when heading to bed, but I don't feel like I haven't eaten enough, even though I think I have.

I like intuitive theories: I haven't had enough, so my body won't let me sleep until I've satisfied my energy needs.

I'm pretty sure that I'm getting enough food, but I could be wrong. I suppose the best course of action would be to make absolutely sure that I'm getting enough calories (and enough protein) into me before blaming it on IF.

Could that just be something that happens when adjusting? What are other causes for sleep trouble?

(I'm 20, 5'9", 160#)

Mike ODonnell
06-15-2008, 06:22 AM
How often are you doing IF? What's your eating schedule? You can take a short break from IF and see what happens. You can cut down/try alternating days with IF or just do one longer fast a week. Make it work for you, there are lots of ways to adjust it....but obviously sleep is a good thing that we need.

Greg Davis
06-15-2008, 07:13 AM
One consideration, while in a bit of a transition period, might be to not force yourself to go to sleep. Rather, grab a book or something to listen to and just stay up a bit till you feel tired.

If this results in short overnight sleeping hours, you could try to squeeze in a shorter nap in the middle of the day to compensate.

Timothy Holmes
06-15-2008, 07:56 PM
If this results in short overnight sleeping hours, you could try to squeeze in a shorter nap in the middle of the day to compensate.

Yeah, I tried doing this but it didn't work well. I'm a huge fan of mid-afternoon naps. My timetable last semester encouraged nap during lectures (engineering lecturer, ~2:00 pm, after a big protein-rich meal... ;))

-------------

Mike, I decided to IF as much as my work/study/workout schedule allows, which has so far been pretty much the entire time since it's exam period for me. But yeah, sleep is pretty important, so I'm going to have to experiment a little.

If I did a one or two longer fasts during the week how long should they be, and what about timing with training - training/rest day and what time of the day? At the moment, I'm pretty flexible.

Jordan Glasser
06-15-2008, 09:11 PM
Insomnia is a symptom of overtraining. I briefly looked at your training log, and wow! That's a lot of volume. Maybe the answer is simple. Perhaps this the sign to back off, before an injury forces you to. It's just a possibility to consider.

I have no idea what type of training volume you are capable of, but you did mention somewhere in your programming questions that it was a concern. Perhaps you should seriously evaluate it as a possibility.

Jordan

Garrett Smith
06-16-2008, 06:28 AM
I've seen a lot of people get insomnia from donating blood too often (more than 2x/year). This is related to the chinese medicine syndrome of blood deficiency, of which insomnia is a big part.

I know because I went there a while back. No fun.

Timothy Holmes
06-16-2008, 06:37 AM
Well, I cut my thumb chopping carrots the other day... How long does it take to set in? :p I haven't given blood for about three months.

Overtraining, me? No way! ... Yeah, you might be right, but I remember training harder than this late last year and sleeping like a baby. I'll continue on the same schedule this week and make sure I get enough food. I've got sneaking suspicion that it's not enough carbs...

Jordan Glasser
06-16-2008, 10:19 AM
Well, I cut my thumb chopping carrots the other day... How long does it take to set in? :p I haven't given blood for about three months.

Overtraining, me? No way! ... Yeah, you might be right, but I remember training harder than this late last year and sleeping like a baby. I'll continue on the same schedule this week and make sure I get enough food. I've got sneaking suspicion that it's not enough carbs...

Remember that training too much, and being overtrained are not one in the same. Other life factors can have, IMO, as much of an impact on how much volume is too much. I am sure that you are capable and have thrived on high volume training. I only mentioned it because you were concerned about it in another thread.

Mike ODonnell
06-16-2008, 11:50 AM
Could it be that overtraining and underrecovery is leading to more chronic stress issues (may also some other lifestyle factors too)? Causing a steady and chronic elevated cortisol response....whose job is to break down whatever it can find to keep a steady supply of glucose to the blood for energy....causing insomnia late at night.......

Take a day off training...go eat....make sure you are taking fish oil and add in daily divided doses of Vit C more often (controls cortisol)...then step back and examine your life to see if you are getting stressed out too much....or take a walk in nature with some deep breathing before you go to bed at night....dump the tv and internet...as they are stimulus...or just watch family guy and let your brain dumb down. (forget news and action shows late and night....will just get you on alert again...another stressor...)

Darryl Shaw
06-17-2008, 05:05 AM
I have trouble sleeping lately. No severely troubled, it's just been hard. I've only just starting fasting, it also happens when I'm substantially hypocaloric. I don't feel hungry when heading to bed, but I don't feel like I haven't eaten enough, even though I think I have.

I like intuitive theories: I haven't had enough, so my body won't let me sleep until I've satisfied my energy needs.

I'm pretty sure that I'm getting enough food, but I could be wrong. I suppose the best course of action would be to make absolutely sure that I'm getting enough calories (and enough protein) into me before blaming it on IF.

Could that just be something that happens when adjusting? What are other causes for sleep trouble?

(I'm 20, 5'9", 160#)

Your intuition was right -

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7414437.stm

Timothy Holmes
06-17-2008, 06:01 AM
Thanks for all the replies, guys! I was able to nap today, but I'm not sure what's changed (if anything).

Your intuition was right -

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7414437.stm

"A period of fasting with no food at all for about 16 hours is enough to engage this new clock."

Sounds familiar...

Jordan, you make a good point. A simple formula for overtrained: [recoverability*] - [other stress] < [training] - if there are other things in my life taking a toll, LIKE EXAMS!, then training volume doesn't really need to be as great to push me into a bad state. (Is that a word?)

Mike OD, I'm going to try all of those things. I'm getting at least 4, usually 6g of fish oil per day, should that increase? How much vit C, and when? You suggested in another thread to start taking it due to fasting so I bought some today in 1000mg tablets.

Could you help me list the recovery techniques that you're aware of? I probably won't be able to do all of them regularly but if I know about them, and try them a least once...

sleep
food
slow run (does this work? maybe if athletics wasn't my sport...)
contrast showers/cold plunge/ice bath
massage/myofascial release
self massage/foam rolling/self-myofascial release

I'm having a shower (hot/cold/hot), reading a book (not a textbook...), then straight to sleep (I hope).

Mike ODonnell
06-18-2008, 08:20 AM
Mike OD, I'm going to try all of those things. I'm getting at least 4, usually 6g of fish oil per day, should that increase? How much vit C, and when? You suggested in another thread to start taking it due to fasting so I bought some today in 1000mg tablets.

Fish oil is fine....try taking 3-6 1000mg Vit C tabs spread throughout the day....esp when you feel you are going through your most stressful times. Who knows....most benefit may be at night when your cortisol is going up causing an increase in blood sugar keeping you awake. So maybe Vit C a couple hours before bed might help out.