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Nikki Young
06-30-2008, 12:23 AM
Hey,

I'm wondering if gall stones can be treated through a nutritional approach once they are active? I know they are extremely painful, but it surgery the only option for treating them once they have formed?

Appreciate any response.

Mike ODonnell
06-30-2008, 06:03 AM
Not a doctor...so all the usual disclaimers...but this is the internet "cure" for gallstones that has been passed around for a while....I would not suggest anyone do this except in partnership with their physician....and I have no idea how true any of this is....read/use at your own risk

http://curezone.com/gallstones/
http://www.healingdaily.com/liver-detoxification/liver-flush.htm
and then the article that debunks everything you read above
http://curezone.com/forums/am.asp?i=1130463

In the end I have no idea if epson salt, apple cider vinegar or lemon juice with hot water is going to help soften or even break them down.....the whole olive oil thing is just trying to squeeze them out but there is no real proof it works.

Garrett Smith
06-30-2008, 01:27 PM
No gluten. At all.
No nightshades.

Without those two, nearly everything else is symptomatic treatment.

Nikki Young
06-30-2008, 04:52 PM
Thanks Mike and Garrett. I'm glad to hear there is a way to treat gall stones other than surgery. I'm actually wanting to find out as much as i can about this as my grandma has gall stones, but they are stuck in a tube which is replacing her gall bladder which was removed about 30yrs ago (due to having gall stones!). She's only just come out of hospital and has been on intravenis antibiotics and now tablet antibiotics for the last week to treat an 'infection' the doctors couldn't even find. I really don't want her to go back into sugery, as last time she went in about a yr ago it caused an infection, resulting in more antibiotics. Worst part is she is stubborn, she won't take probiotics unless the doctors tell her too, and well... they don't. (now she burps like crazy everytime she eats something!)

The links you provided Mike suggest a clense, but i know a cleanse can be harmful if the body is in a super toxic state. I have a feeling my grandma's body may be in a pretty toxic state at the moment, after all the antiobitocis but other medications she has been taking lately (HBP, antiflammitories, pain killers) in addition to drinking more coffee than water.

In this situation, is there a way to implement a cleanse that will slowly release toxins but also help treat the gall stones? In reading this section of one of the links you provided Mike, (http://curezone.com/cleanse/liver/cleansing_or_surgery.asp) it says to do an enema or saltwater flush, would natural laxatives be just as effective? Is this cleanse also a 4day fast apart from the actual cleansing ingredients?

Also, this one seems to be an overnight fix(?) Although i don't feel my grandma would ever be willing, or could stomach drinking 1cup of olive oil, if she did, could this clense be less harmful than a longer cleanse if the body is in a toxic state? Also, would all that oil be hard on the body to digest if she doesn't have a gall bladder?

Eat only fat-free breakfast the day of cleanse, and then fast.

In the evening:
squeeze juice from 10 lemons
and mix it with 1 cup of olive oil.

Drink it.

Walk all night. Empty bowels into the pot and look for stones


Thanks again!

Garrett Smith
06-30-2008, 05:09 PM
My thoughts, if this were my grandmother:

Absolutely a NO on the olive oil. She can hardly digest fat well now, a cup of olive oil will likely result in both projectile vomiting and explosive diarrhea. Not good.

She is probably hardly digesting fat (and maybe many other things) well at all. She doesn't need a cleanse as much as she needs BILE. Try to get her some ox bile supplement if you can, have her take it soon after beginning a meal.

FYI, on the no-nightshades, this would even include the small amount of tomatoes in the Garden Blend portion of Juice Plus. I now have patients who have anecdotally reported they have reacted to that supplement.

Honestly:
Older + stubborn + lots of meds = likely a pretty bleak outcome. Sorry about that, I hope she comes around before the point of no return. Trying to help family members is all to often a no-win situation.

Mike ODonnell
06-30-2008, 05:21 PM
Also, this one seems to be an overnight fix(?) Although i don't feel my grandma would ever be willing, or could stomach drinking 1cup of olive oil, if she did, could this clense be less harmful than a longer cleanse if the body is in a toxic state? Also, would all that oil be hard on the body to digest if she doesn't have a gall bladder?

Oh with no gallbladder throw that whole flush thing out the window (or down the drain). Like Dr G says, the olive oil with no gallbladder and bile would just probably make her throw up. Plus that was just for FYI on what the web has been passing around for 15-20 years...was not my personal recommendation, just the only thing I ever heard of....which there is no real science to back it up anyways. (plus there is no proof that is gallstones coming out).

I would think something like ACV/apple juice/apples in between meals may help slowly break down the gallstones over time (pectin) but that's just a guess at best if it gets the job done (you may be able to find supplements of pectin too)...but I am not a doctor. Make sure if you or she does anything that it's cleared by her doctor first because there are too many complications that can come about with variables of age and no gallbladder, not too mention additional stress put on the liver and kidneys with any type of cleanse.

saw something about a chinese herb called "Gold Coin Grass" and it's use for disolving gallstone? Know nothing other than what I found below but you can look into it more.
http://www.chineseherbsdirect.com/product_info.php?products_id=232&gclid=CJnEprTY3ZICFQKwPAod4QhImg

Nikki Young
06-30-2008, 06:22 PM
That makes things harder then i guess :( I know my grandma doesn't listen to me, but if she's in heaps of pain and needs to wait a good week or longer for an opperation she might be willing to give it a go (a cleanse that is). But with your input it now seems like they won't be a good idea as she doesn't have a gall bladder.

Garrett, i have heard people reacting to JP+ too, in regards to allergies. Also had a lot of people stop taking it because they find they go to the toilet more regularly, which i don't think is a bad thing, but i understand people will have allergies, especially to the nighshades. My grandma doesn't take it though, she would only take it if her doctor said to take it :/

With the Ox Bile, would this be something which would help release the gall stones? And within a short period of time? I think i heard you mention you can only obtain Ox Bile through a medical professional, so i might ring around to see if a more 'natural' doctor has some and would prescribe it to my grandma as a gall stone treatment (and long term suppliment). Then the hardest part will be trying to convince my grandma to go see a NON GP... After about 2weeks of doctors guess working on a diagnosis for my grandmas sore knee; gang green, infection, etc.. i convinced my auntie to take her to a physio, result, torn cartilage!

Mike ODonnell
06-30-2008, 07:08 PM
Slow and steady natural treatment is probably the best route for someone of her age and condition.....as something quick and drastic like a "cleanse" of any sort will put your body and other organs under tremendous strain.

Garrett Smith
07-01-2008, 07:23 AM
Ox bile supplements may be for sale at your supplement store, they are available here at stores at least, even if the storebought ones are often not very potent.

I understand you care about her. If she won't listen to you and she won't see a non-conventional doc, you may be beating your head against the wall--which won't help either of you.

There are herbs that are reputed to help with gallstones. A big thing is getting the diet more alkaline, with fewer grains & sugars from all sources.

Nikki Young
07-01-2008, 09:12 PM
Thanks Garrett, i know i could be banging my head against a wall, but it's worth a try :)

I was wondering if you had any good references to research/articles showing the benefits and necessity of ox bile when a gall bladder is removed, and also any research showing how this could be beneficial in removing gall stones?

I've been looking for some more solid research on this front, so i can pass onto my other family members who Iíll hopefully then convince of this alternative method.

Mike ODonnell
07-02-2008, 06:18 AM
Maybe there is something to the old saying....

"An Apple a day....Keeps the Gallstones Away"

ok that may be a little modified....but there is some truth to it.

Garrett Smith
07-02-2008, 06:25 AM
Ox bile is not helpful in getting rid of gall stones, it is helpful for folks with no gall bladder to digest the fat in their foods. It is a physiological thing, the gall bladder was put there for a reason--to hold bile (which is produced slowly by the liver) to release in a big bolus when a meal is eaten. Not having a gall bladder is akin to trying to wash a bunch of dishes with the sink only releasing a small trickle of water--as opposed to the full sink of water that would be the full gall bladder releasing bile. As far as research, to this point I've never looked any up. It's the equivalent of someone doing gastric bypass and never being told or given supplementary HCl to help digest protein (which is what the stomach does). It is tantamount to malpractice in my book, yet it is standard practice in conventional medicine to ignore known digestive processes. Sometimes I honestly wonder what gastroenterologists actually study when I hear patients tell me their gastros say things like "there is no connection between your diet and your ulcerative colitis flare-ups". Seriously?!?

I don't have a lot of time right now, but here is one that is related:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17127188?ordinalpos=10&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
In asymptomatic and symptomatic gallstone carriers, treatment with the hydrophilic bile salt ursodeoxycholic acid (UDCA) has been claimed to reduce the risk of biliary colic and gallstone complications such as acute cholecystitis and acute pancreatitis. Also, prophylactic cholecystectomy could be beneficial in certain subgroups of asymptomatic gallstone carriers. However, randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trials are lacking.

Nikki Young
07-03-2008, 02:39 PM
oh ok, thanks for the link! So if ox bile won't help specifically with removing the gall stones, because my grandma doesn't have a gall bladder, would the only other options be for removing them;

1. A diet without grains, nightshaded, dairy, sugar and low in fat, and

2. surgery


?

Garrett Smith
07-03-2008, 05:43 PM
Fats are necessary for life. Therefore, it would be a great thing to get her some bile supplement (or at least an enzyme supplement with a lot of lipase in it). The diet above will help her not form new gallstones and over a long enough time may help her body to rid itself of her current gallstones. However, she might not have enough years left to ever see that happen (I mean it would take a long time with only diet).

Where are the gallstones exactly, if she doesn't have a gallbladder?

Also, I know there are non-surgical methods of breaking down kidney stones, I'm not sure if there are similar methods of breaking down gallstones.

It might be a time for surgery and then working on preventing more in the future (ie. removing the cause).

Nikki Young
07-04-2008, 10:44 PM
Thanks Garrett, we aren't 100% sure where the gall stones are yet, the doctor presumes they are in the tube which is replacing her gall bladder. She had an untra sound the other day and was going to see the doctor this week to get the verdict, but he's in hospital for kidney stones! :eek: So will need to wait until next week sometime.