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Liam Dougherty Springer
07-02-2008, 07:30 PM
I am really needing some strength in my heavy lift arena (both PL and OL) I have been able to find incredible information as to how to train and I have also found incredible info as to how to eat/ train for functional mass gains.

How related are these to things... I guess what I am getting at is if I am looking for strength gains would it be bennificial to have it coincide with mass gains?

I don't mind mass gains. I am at 173/5'10"/<10%BF and my body weight game is fairly good (45 kipping pullups no sweat 24 HSPUs and 11 rounds of Mary) and I believe it will catch back up if I gain some weight. But at the end of the day is mass benificial to attaining rapid lift gains?... or just extra weight?:confused:

Steven Low
07-02-2008, 07:44 PM
Both. Look at SS as an example.

Liam Dougherty Springer
07-02-2008, 09:43 PM
Both. Look at SS as an example.

....? By both do you mean It is Bennificial and is extra weight regarding mass gains during strength training?

I guess what I am getting at is can I make gains in strength without mass gains as easily as with?

My #1 priority from october through february was going to be strength development. Part of my thinking is that is a great time for eating if it is the case that mass gains will enhance the effects of my strength training.

If this is all answered in SS I am sorry as to my ignorance it is in the mail right now and I will be reading it shortly.

Steven Low
07-02-2008, 10:14 PM
It's easier to increase strength with corresponding muscle gains.

If you needed to stay a certain weight class it would be much slower (as strength goes up you get the logarithmic curve limiting your progress).

Dave Van Skike
07-02-2008, 10:39 PM
How related are these to things... I guess what I am getting at is if I am looking for strength gains would it be beneficial to have it coincide with mass gains?

yes.

Liam Dougherty Springer
07-03-2008, 06:15 AM
Awsome you guys are the best!:) Thanx Steve.

Mike ODonnell
07-03-2008, 06:15 AM
A 175lb guy doing 24 HSPU may not be able to DL 400+lbs......a 230lb guy Deadlifting 600lbs may not be able to do 24 HSPU. So pick what you want to be good at as mass is a big factor when it comes to strength gains.

Greg Everett
07-03-2008, 09:15 AM
All other things being equal, a muscle with a larger cross-section is stronger (it has more contractile units working together to shorten). But the key part there is "all other things being equal", which is not always the case. So larger muscles have more POTENTIAL for strength - but there's no guarantee. An a caveat to that is of course the nature of that mass - take a bodybuilder's mass, which is largely scarcoplasmic hypertrophy and non-contractile proteins, and compare it to a strength athlete's mass, which is composed of more contractile proteins - the latter, even if the same size, has more strength potential.

So yes, get big but make sure you're getting stronger too.

Liam Dougherty Springer
07-03-2008, 07:39 PM
Thanx Gregg that is exactly what I needed I figured something along those lines but I felt pretty blind and am really trying to navigate this building strength thing as efficiantly as possible.

Reading my initial post I was worried people would think I was trying to brag not that my stats are so mind blowing I should boast. The truth is I am becoming happy with some of my body weight strength and Metcon performance however my lifts are proportionatly extreemly low.
BS:225# DL:305# SP:160#
BP: dont know but last time I checked it was like 205# months ago.
C&J:175#
Snatch:130#
OHS:135#x3

So my long term goals (and I am sure they are far off) are
2xBW BS 2 1/2xBW DL BW or more SP
and I just want to have faster cleaner O lifts and become more comftorble getting under the bar at a high weight. I don't know what to shoot for yet I have a long way to go as far as coordination and familiarity.

I felt like the Mass gain training programing from PM may be able to give me a boost in my lift gains as well as practice with the O lifts. I guess the only reson I wonder is because the article is specificaly dealing with mass gain and not srength gain.

Steven Low
07-03-2008, 08:45 PM
Lift heavy and you'll get strength and mass (through eating). It's simple.

You should probably do Starting Strength (and yes I know the book is coming) if those are your goals... :D

Chris Bate
07-04-2008, 01:25 PM
If you needed to stay a certain weight class it would be much slower (as strength goes up you get the logarithmic curve limiting your progress).

How exactly do strength adaptations work without increasing mass? Would this affect one's training program in any manner? If anyone has any links/knowledge about this I would be very greatful :D. Don't really know where to start looking on my own :/

Sorry for thread hijack.

Mike ODonnell
07-04-2008, 03:16 PM
If you needed to stay a certain weight class it would be much slower (as strength goes up you get the logarithmic curve limiting your progress).

Don't strength athletes do like the fighters do......train at 250....then diet down to 220 or whatever the weight class is before the event? I have no idea...but makes sense to train heavier for maximal strength...then drop down...as I doubt you will lose much strength in the process....

Steven Low
07-04-2008, 05:34 PM
How exactly do strength adaptations work without increasing mass? Would this affect one's training program in any manner? If anyone has any links/knowledge about this I would be very greatful :D. Don't really know where to start looking on my own :/

Sorry for thread hijack.

http://physiotherapy.curtin.edu.au/resources/educational-resources/exphys/01/neural.cfm

There are maybe one or two they didn't cover but this is pretty much all encompassing. If you're not sure what one of them is/does google it... before you ask here. :)


Don't strength athletes do like the fighters do......train at 250....then diet down to 220 or whatever the weight class is before the event? I have no idea...but makes sense to train heavier for maximal strength...then drop down...as I doubt you will lose much strength in the process....

Yep. Generally better to do it that way...

Greg Everett
07-06-2008, 10:16 PM
Chris -

I assume what Steven posted answered your question. In short, neurological adaptation to improve force production capacity.

Mike -

Not in O-lifting really. Athletes weigh in 2 hrs before lifting - not enough time to rehydrate well if really cutting. Fighters usually have 24 hrs or so and can drop huge numbers and regain comfortably.

Mike ODonnell
07-07-2008, 07:13 AM
Mike -

Not in O-lifting really. Athletes weigh in 2 hrs before lifting - not enough time to rehydrate well if really cutting. Fighters usually have 24 hrs or so and can drop huge numbers and regain comfortably.

Greg, didn't mean they cut and "regain" like fighters to get around the "weight" class issue. Just was seeing if say an Oly lifter would train at like 250lbs (knowing they were stronger and could train heavier), but then cut down for the competition at say like 225lbs (just guessing numbers). Would that person have an advantage in increased strength and power output from training at a highter weight then say had they trained at 225lbs all year long?

Greg Everett
07-07-2008, 09:59 AM
Some athletes train heavy during the year, but the numbers are smaller. More like 5 lbs over for the most part. If the cut can't be done through de- and rehydration, it will definitely cut strength as well. One of the reasons to train heavy though is purely psychological - these guys can go onto the platform to lift a record weight having already lifted it (overweight).

Dave Van Skike
07-07-2008, 10:24 AM
In elite levels of PL it may be common and in strongman at the lightweight level, 105kg and below. But it's not as prevalant as you'd guess.

In PL seems like certain weight classes it's more common . With 220-242 there's a lot of movement between classes. Most of the folks I train with never cut, they just try to get as big as possible. I'm sitting at about 20% BF and am forbidden to cut until the offseason.

Liam Dougherty Springer
07-07-2008, 03:05 PM
This thread has become incredible didn't have E-net access over the weekened and am stoked on the info I just received thanks guys.

A 175lb guy doing 24 HSPU may not be able to DL 400+lbs......a 230lb guy Deadlifting 600lbs may not be able to do 24 HSPU. So pick what you want to be good at as mass is a big factor when it comes to strength gains.


Mike I missed your first post somehow. I was thinking something along those lines and I am confused as to what to do in my training. I would like to improve my overall CFing and I had never done any heavy lifting previouse to starting 7 months ago. I am 175 and am not capable of doing Elizabeth or Diane without scaleing down and even then the lifts are slow going while the BW sets are proportionaly easy. I feel like spending a little time with some SS then ME programing and finaly some sort of strength program involving O lifting as a basis (like the mass gain work out) would help me balance my strengths a bit and improve my performance capability overall.

Any thoughts

Steven Low
07-07-2008, 05:56 PM
SS then MEBB would be good. You can do this concurrently with some oly lifting technique work (keep it fairly light to avoid too much overworking esp. on SS).