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Steve Forman
07-13-2008, 08:31 PM
Yes I know it means, Metabolic Conditioning, But can someone give me a more finite definition. When is a workout considered METCON? Are some of the WOD's METCON and if so which ones as an example.

Why are METCON workouts not recommended when fat loss is the goal?

I am struggling with my lack of fat loss in the last two months and am trying to figure why I have stopped making progress.

More to come!!!

Dave Van Skike
07-13-2008, 09:23 PM
hard conditioning makes some people hungry, being hungry sucks, especially when you're hungry already.

ignore armchair endocrinologists. "metcon" is not a significant factor.

track intake and you'll figure it out.

Steven Low
07-13-2008, 09:43 PM
1. It's metcon not metcom.

2. Usually some type of circuit or series of elements done for rounds. Usually no rest in between them... some done for time.

3. I would recommend metcon for fat loss.

4. Post up your food log (diet), training regime, and sleep schedule... and any other factors like supplements, STRESS LEVELS, etc.

Steve Forman
07-13-2008, 10:13 PM
1. It's metcon not metcom.

.

steve,


Yes, I seen that typo. I will post up my schedule with my fitday log tomorrow. thanks for the reply and willingness to help

steve

Dave Van Skike
07-14-2008, 09:13 AM
1. It's metcon not metcom.

2. Usually some type of circuit or series of elements done for rounds. Usually no rest in between them... some done for time.

3. I would recommend metcon for fat loss.

4. Post up your food log (diet), training regime, and sleep schedule... and any other factors like supplements, STRESS LEVELS, etc.


Low,

What's the most amount of fat weight you've ever lost on purpose?

Foreman,

How much fat are you trying to lose?

Steven Low
07-14-2008, 10:05 AM
Skike,

Does it matter?

If you're more qualified, critique his diet and draw up a training plan for him. Be my guest. I'll wait for your expert decision.

Dave Van Skike
07-14-2008, 10:07 AM
No one is particularly "qualified" to prescribe a "plan" for the chap over the interwebs..certainly one can get some interesting ideas from other people's experiences of course. You seem to know a lot about fat loss, I was simply curious.

Let's keep the thread civil now.

Steve Liberati
07-14-2008, 10:42 AM
Low,

What's the most amount of fat weight you've ever lost on purpose?

Foreman,

How much fat are you trying to lose?

Ok, that logic is just silly. Just because Steven didn't lose significant fat weight means that he is not in a position to dispense advice for fat loss?

Does that also mean that every coach in pro sports who was not a professional athlete himself, should not be giving advice or coaching professional athletes?

Sorry Dave, but I have to disagree with you there.

Arien Malec
07-14-2008, 10:48 AM
I am struggling with my lack of fat loss in the last two months and am trying to figure why I have stopped making progress.

To echo other comments, where'd you come from and where are you stuck?

What have you tried, and what has worked so far?

Ditto the recommendation for a diet log.

Totally different set of recommendations for going from 30% BF to 15% BF, from 15% to 10% and from 10% to 8%. Basically, it gets harder and you have to make more compromises each time.

Dave Van Skike
07-14-2008, 11:05 AM
Ok, that logic is just silly. Just because Steven didn't lose significant fat weight means that he is not in a position to dispense advice for fat loss?

Does that also mean that every coach in pro sports who was not a professional athlete himself, should not be giving advice or coaching professional athletes?

Sorry Dave, but I have to disagree with you there.


I didn't say he wasn't qualified. I asked a question. I do think it's a relevant one.

As for the logic, it absolutley makes a difference in my mind where the advice is coming from, experience or otherwise. I see a lot of the same blather about hormonal this and met con that when the truth that anyone who's actually been there knows and doesn't forget is the importance of keeping your eye on the ball or ..... viscious application of the 80/20 rule.

the 80% will always work:

track intake and output, eat clean,green and meaty. Be consistent, limit your reliance on willpower and up your reliance on habit. lift often but not to exhaustion, get huge amounts of NEPA ...and sleep.

the 20% might work:

occasional intervals ("metcon") fiddle with meal timing, try supplements,

Mike ODonnell
07-14-2008, 12:21 PM
Until we actually hear back from Steve about his workout schedule and calories...all this is moot.

PS. Anyone who is a certified trainer is "qualified" by whatever today's standard are for giving exercise advice...does that mean the advice is any good? Prob not as I have met plenty of trainers who don't know crap too ...actually most are trained and sold on what the current trend is by Ryan Lee or Perform Better. Most are sold right now on the magic of intervals, which may have an advantage in some way, but anyone working with the general public know that they are a small tool and MUST be part of an entire plan that centers around diet and increased activity level. With that in mind...and inexperienced/unknowlegeable trainers taking $65/hr every day at globo gym...I often wonder why I keep even continue to give advice for free....no one else does in my industry.

BTW...anyone who wants to lose all the stubborn bodyfat should read Lyles post on plagerism, because it basically tells you how to burn fat....low insulin...high catecholamines
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/blog/2008/07/09/plagiarism-part-2/
Also noticed this gem
Blood flow to fat cells improves during fasting and, although we can’t fast completely (too much muscle loss), we can mimic the condition with a low-carbohydrate/ketogenic diet. This fits in with our goal of lowering insulin in the first place and turns out to have an extra advantage that I’ll discuss in a later chapter.

Pat McElhone
07-14-2008, 02:45 PM
METCON is the Crossfit (and PM's?) term for what used to be know as "Cardio". Mark Verstegen (sp?) calls this "Energy System Devolpment" in "Core Performance". I like the terms Metabolic and Conditioning, because it says what we are actually doing...conditioning the body's metabolic systems to be able to handle increased workloads over time.

METCON blurrs or even ignores the ideal that anaerobic and aerobic conditioning are separate. Just as one does not do body part training for functional strength, why would we do specific energy system pathway training for METCON. Just perform the set task as fast as possible and you will stress all of the ways of generate energy the body has.

On to fatloss. At various times in the past 5 years, I have weighed between 196 (fat) and 165 (lean, probably sub 9%BF). In additional to following as exercise plan and for the most part eating clean whole food (striving for 90% of total meals as clean), fasting for 2-3hours post workout has been the best. I know this is counter to the ideal that one should utilize the PWO period, but it works for me.

Dave Van Skike
07-14-2008, 03:04 PM
In additional to following as exercise plan and for the most part eating clean whole food (striving for 90% of total meals as clean), fasting for 2-3hours post workout has been the best. I know this is counter to the ideal that one should utilize the PWO period, but it works for me.


This is interesting. What did you do on non-workout days?

Tom Rawls
07-14-2008, 03:10 PM
Regarding weight loss, personally I have found some long (60 min+) low-to-moderate intensity sessions enormously helpful is getting rid of fat.

I understand that met con or interval work burns more fat/ min and there is some modest afterburn, but including longer, moderate sessions allows you to train more frequently and ultimately, in my experience, burn more total calories and lose weight more effectively.

When it comes to losing weight, I am always reminded by what Mark Twain said about giving up smoking (paraphrase). It's easy, I've done it lots of times.

Pat McElhone
07-14-2008, 03:11 PM
I try to eat clean on nontraining days. One thing I am learning is the best time for a "free meal" is on the last day of a training cycle, not the rest day. I try to eat clean on the rest day because what I eat the day before effects my performance the most.

I am starting to do more and more IFing. Thanks MOD for all the great "free info".

Steven Low
07-14-2008, 06:51 PM
Regarding weight loss, personally I have found some long (60 min+) low-to-moderate intensity sessions enormously helpful is getting rid of fat.

I understand that met con or interval work burns more fat/ min and there is some modest afterburn, but including longer, moderate sessions allows you to train more frequently and ultimately, in my experience, burn more total calories and lose weight more effectively.

When it comes to losing weight, I am always reminded by what Mark Twain said about giving up smoking (paraphrase). It's easy, I've done it lots of times.
Read the neuroendocrine response thread.

Steady state tends to directly burn fat better than high intensity workouts. High intensity workouts like metcon/tabata/etc. induce a hormonal response which is the primary underpinning of increased body composition from those workouts.

Provided good diet/sleep/etc. of course -- these are ALWAYS the most important with regards to fat/weight loss. You can't eat crap in massive amounts and expect to be thin nor can you sleep 3 hrs a day and not expect to have a large stress response which will inhibit fat loss & recovery.

-----------------------------------

I always refuse to answer questions when someone questions my "qualifications." Quality of information speaks for itself.

High intensity work may or may not induce appetite. As I referenced in neuroendocrine response, ghrelin induced appetite from high intensity does not occur. Regarding high intensity work and myself, I do not have an increased appetite and actually generally don't eat for an hour or two afterwards because my body tells me no. Depending on someone's adaptation to high intensity workouts it could differ however as I did not specifically look into this type of information.

Steve Forman
07-14-2008, 07:16 PM
After reading all the responses I am kind of lost. :) , no JK!!! not lost, but I did not mean to cause a rukus.

Let me clear to everyone, I am the one asking for the advice!!!! ME!!! and I will decide about the advice. I value Steven Lows advice as much as MODS and everyone elses. I have to, as I am not as educated as them nor have I been dooing it as long. so here i go I dont know where to start: first my whole family is overweight. Dad is 150 over, mom 75lbs brothers and sisters are all 50-65lbs overweight. not sure if this matters, but I think it may. I am the leanest and healthiest of the family.

ME:

5'9" 195lbs, When I started CF and nutrition I was 250 lbs, that was one year ago. I'm in love with nutrition and CF. I dont know my BF%. I have never taken it. I know I am no longer ashamed to take off my shirt. If the scale is most important (and I know its not) I would love be about 180lbs. I would love the loose the spare fat left on my body. that slight blubber that still shakes and makes me feel fat at times. I am starting see some upper abs, but would love to see a sixer!!!!

Nutrition: I did strict zone for 6 months. I hate measuring!!!!!!! I am now doing paleo foods and zone proportions, without weighing. I did fitday for a few weeks in May. here I my link. You need to go May to see what I ate. I am pretty consistent: oh and I hate logging fitday. to much work with measuring and logging.
http://www.fitday.com/WebFit/PublicJournals.html?Owner=Steve+Forman

Workouts: I do CF. I workout 4-5 days week and pretty much follow CF main. plus Mtn biking and road biking. I still do some Mtn climbing, and play with kids. I am very active.


I have back slide in the diet a little. I have been eating some cookies in the day. maybe two per day. but I consume fruit like its going out of style. I am bored eater. I thought fruit would be my problem here but I am not sure.

My sleep is 6-8 hours at home, at work in the fire station its only 2-5 hours.

Alchohol: I love it. I have 2-5 beers a week. or 2-4 glasses of wine a week. the wife and I really enjoy and drink together.

So I think thats about it! any questions I can clarify for you let me know.


steve

Steve Forman
07-14-2008, 07:35 PM
I forgot.

I have been doing IF for last 6 weeks straight. I IF 4 days a week. I stop eating at 9m and break the fast 1pm.

one other change, when I started IFing, I started increasing my fat (not weighing.) but now I think Ive gone off the deep end. I am consuming probably 5-6 times the zone required amount of fat. I am consuming almonds, walnuts, macadamias, like they are going out style also.

the fruit I am consuming is grapes, oranges, apples, watermelon, cantelope, bluebarries.

I think thats all.

steve

Dave Van Skike
07-14-2008, 07:59 PM
Steve,


First, good job on the weight loss... That is huge. You've done very well.

You didn't cause a ruckus. I did, unrepentantly. You may feel free to question my qualifications. At any time.

What do you think you should do now? What you think is more valuable than anything you'll hear from someone here, whether they learned it from experience or Pub Med.

Steve Forman
07-14-2008, 08:09 PM
I dont need to questions anyones certs and quals.

Thanks also for the compliment, yes it feels great to loose and to not have done what I usually do which is yoyo.

I am looking to loose the last bit (I think) or the last lots a bit!!!

my suspects are the light beer I drink, the fruit, the amount of nuts or fat I consume, at time it definitely is the sugar but not a lot of the times. I believe the sugar craving have really been under control for the last year or so. when I eat sugar its because I choose to. I just dont have self control and stop at one cooking or two scoops of ice cream, I go on and on!

my other concerns have been the workouts. I dont know if I need to change something there or just keep going.

It is frustrating that I was doing so well for last year and now for last 2-2.5 months I have had no fat loss that I can tell.

my performance is doing good. no set backs there. I am doing prescribed weights and putting up decent times.

thanks for willing to help.

Mike ODonnell
07-14-2008, 08:15 PM
(Moderating myself....what has been said is done and gone. No need to keep up.)

That being said...Steve I will try to get back to you soon, but right now going to shut off the computer and come back when I am in a better frame of mind....as I am not right now.

Arien Malec
07-14-2008, 08:17 PM
5'9" 195lbs....I am starting see some upper abs, but would love to see a sixer!!!!
....

I hate logging fitday. to much work with measuring and logging.

....

Workouts: I do CF. I workout 4-5 days week and pretty much follow CF main. plus Mtn biking and road biking. I still do some Mtn climbing, and play with kids. I am very active.


I have back slide in the diet a little. I have been eating some cookies in the day. maybe two per day. but I consume fruit like its going out of style
....

Alchohol: I love it. I have 2-5 beers a week. or 2-4 glasses of wine a week. the wife and I really enjoy and drink together.

....

I am consuming almonds, walnuts, macadamias, like they are going out style also.



I think you got all the key pieces right here and know what you need to do.

You are entering the hard part of fat loss -- you've done an enormous amount of work very well, and have been extraordinarily successful.

You can get a bit more with a few changes, but to get to a six pack, you are going to have to be a bit obsessive for a while.

You have the exercise (and the metcons) covered with CF. A strength bias might or might not help, but it's probably minor (what are your key lifts?)

(For Dave's benefit, my real-world experience is getting down from 205 to 165 -- did it with a low carb diet, strength training and cardio, and the last 10 lbs required ultra obsessional attention to caloric intake and nutrient partitioning -- since, by choice, I've gone up 25 lbs, and am now in a fat loss phase: see my log: http://performancemenu.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2337)

Dave Van Skike
07-14-2008, 08:23 PM
I dont need to questions anyones certs and quals.

Thanks also for the compliment, yes it feels great to loose and to not have done what I usually do which is yoyo.

I am looking to loose the last bit (I think) or the last lots a bit!!!

my suspects are the light beer I drink, the fruit, the amount of nuts or fat I consume, at time it definitely is the sugar but not a lot of the times. I believe the sugar craving have really been under control for the last year or so. when I eat sugar its because I choose to. I just dont have self control and stop at one cooking or two scoops of ice cream, I go on and on!

my other concerns have been the workouts. I dont know if I need to change something there or just keep going.

It is frustrating that I was doing so well for last year and now for last 2-2.5 months I have had no fat loss that I can tell.

my performance is doing good. no set backs there. I am doing prescribed weights and putting up decent times.

thanks for willing to help.

A two month plateau is not too bad in the context of where you came from and in the context of otherwise performing well.

The stuff you're saying totally resonates. When I start gaining weight (unintentionally), those are two of the culprits....fruit and beer. I've had decent luck with confining beers to only the weekend and only after the "big day" Sounds puritan but you might need to think of "earning" them.

Saturday is my events day for strongman stuff, I'm there about 6 hours and when I'm done I know I've earned a little wiggle room, everything else seems like cheating...

But..whatever, Arien's right, if you want to go from healthy strong to very lean you're going to have really put the screws to it...I think you know what to do and once you've had a little time to level out here, you'll be ready to go balls out again.

Dave Van Skike
07-14-2008, 08:33 PM
So basically your opinion of what he should do is not too valuable either....so why state it? Especially if you have to try and bring someone else down on purpose?




that's not what i said. you know that. i told him to trust what he already knows, he's most of the way there.

Arien Malec
07-14-2008, 08:44 PM
I think you got all the key pieces right here and know what you need to do.

Reflecting on this, this might be too vague. What I'd do if I were you (and what I am personally doing):

1) Get calories down to bw X 10 (in your case, I'd target 1950 calories) and drop caloric intake as weight decreases, and do so by logging and measuring.
2) Drop all sugar and refined carbs
3) Consume the majority of carbs, including fruit, only in the immediate PWO period
4) Eat between 175-200g protein daily
5) Drop alcohol

(Do 2, 3 and 5 and eat "lots" of protein if you want a stress free approach that will lean you out a bit without a lot of obsessive logging and measuring. If you want the six pack, you have to do the obsessive stuff. Sorry.)

For marginal improvement, you can:
1) Make sure you lift heavy 3x weekly
2) Do light cardio after metcons and weight training sessions
3) IF

Don't run obsessive fat loss for too long at a stretch. I'd alternate 2-4 weeks of intense focus on fat loss with 6-8 weeks of living normally, until you get where you want to be.

The closer you get to that six pack, the harder the fat loss will be, and the more compromises (in terms of strength, performance, etc.) you will have to make to get there.

Given your family and personal background, if you want to sport a 6-pack year round, you are going to have to make severe compromises year round as well. If you want to enjoy life (fruit, beer and wine, etc), you might want to lean out periodically just to show you can, and go back to your normal lifestyle for most of the year, accepting that your body will want to do things you don't want it to do.

Dave Van Skike
07-14-2008, 09:35 PM
Reflecting on this, this might be too vague. What I'd do if I were you (and what I am personally doing):

1) Get calories down to bw X 10 (in your case, I'd target 1950 calories) and drop caloric intake as weight decreases, and do so by logging and measuring.
2) Drop all sugar and refined carbs
3) Consume the majority of carbs, including fruit, only in the immediate PWO period
4) Eat between 175-200g protein daily
5) Drop alcohol

(Do 2, 3 and 5 and eat "lots" of protein if you want a stress free approach that will lean you out a bit without a lot of obsessive logging and measuring. If you want the six pack, you have to do the obsessive stuff. Sorry.)

For marginal improvement, you can:
1) Make sure you lift heavy 3x weekly
2) Do light cardio after metcons and weight training sessions
3) IF

Don't run obsessive fat loss for too long at a stretch. I'd alternate 2-4 weeks of intense focus on fat loss with 6-8 weeks of living normally, until you get where you want to be.

The closer you get to that six pack, the harder the fat loss will be, and the more compromises (in terms of strength, performance, etc.) you will have to make to get there.

Given your family and personal background, if you want to sport a 6-pack year round, you are going to have to make severe compromises year round as well. If you want to enjoy life (fruit, beer and wine, etc), you might want to lean out periodically just to show you can, and go back to your normal lifestyle for most of the year, accepting that your body will want to do things you don't want it to do.

nice. practical. smart.

Dave Van Skike
07-14-2008, 09:36 PM
Reflecting on this, this might be too vague. What I'd do if I were you (and what I am personally doing):

1) Get calories down to bw X 10 (in your case, I'd target 1950 calories) and drop caloric intake as weight decreases, and do so by logging and measuring.
2) Drop all sugar and refined carbs
3) Consume the majority of carbs, including fruit, only in the immediate PWO period
4) Eat between 175-200g protein daily
5) Drop alcohol

(Do 2, 3 and 5 and eat "lots" of protein if you want a stress free approach that will lean you out a bit without a lot of obsessive logging and measuring. If you want the six pack, you have to do the obsessive stuff. Sorry.)

For marginal improvement, you can:
1) Make sure you lift heavy 3x weekly
2) Do light cardio after metcons and weight training sessions
3) IF

Don't run obsessive fat loss for too long at a stretch. I'd alternate 2-4 weeks of intense focus on fat loss with 6-8 weeks of living normally, until you get where you want to be.

The closer you get to that six pack, the harder the fat loss will be, and the more compromises (in terms of strength, performance, etc.) you will have to make to get there.

Given your family and personal background, if you want to sport a 6-pack year round, you are going to have to make severe compromises year round as well. If you want to enjoy life (fruit, beer and wine, etc), you might want to lean out periodically just to show you can, and go back to your normal lifestyle for most of the year, accepting that your body will want to do things you don't want it to do.

nice. practical.

Steve Forman
07-14-2008, 10:22 PM
MOD, I will admit I have not been on this forum very long. I am also willing to be wrong, but I did not take this the way you did. sorry I just want to be fair, but I also understand there be history that I am unaware of!

Steve Forman
07-14-2008, 10:26 PM
nice. practical.

I agree, very nice suggestions. I do want to talk about supplement partitioning. but not now. let me ask again in another thread.


so, what seems to be the concensus here, 1. do more metcons or 2. do more heavy lifting days. 3. or split.

I am starting to think my body is very sensitive to the sugar in all the fruit and that my caloric intake is high because of all the fat. can that be? today I stopped eating fruit, ate all veggies instead (with protein) and already felt better today.

steve

Steve Forman
07-14-2008, 10:32 PM
Reflecting on this, this might be too vague. What I'd do if I were you (and what I am personally doing):

1) Get calories down to bw X 10 (in your case, I'd target 1950 calories) and drop caloric intake as weight decreases, and do so by logging and measuring.
2) Drop all sugar and refined carbs
3) Consume the majority of carbs, including fruit, only in the immediate PWO period
4) Eat between 175-200g protein daily
5) Drop alcohol

(Do 2, 3 and 5 and eat "lots" of protein if you want a stress free approach that will lean you out a bit without a lot of obsessive logging and measuring. If you want the six pack, you have to do the obsessive stuff. Sorry.)

For marginal improvement, you can:
1) Make sure you lift heavy 3x weekly
2) Do light cardio after metcons and weight training sessions
3) IF

Don't run obsessive fat loss for too long at a stretch. I'd alternate 2-4 weeks of intense focus on fat loss with 6-8 weeks of living normally, until you get where you want to be.

The closer you get to that six pack, the harder the fat loss will be, and the more compromises (in terms of strength, performance, etc.) you will have to make to get there.

Given your family and personal background, if you want to sport a 6-pack year round, you are going to have to make severe compromises year round as well. If you want to enjoy life (fruit, beer and wine, etc), you might want to lean out periodically just to show you can, and go back to your normal lifestyle for most of the year, accepting that your body will want to do things you don't want it to do.

okay, I see what you are saying here. good stuff. I am pretty close to 1900 calories when I was logging in fitday. I might have to guess if I logged again I would be above that right now. probably because of the things Ive mentioned. Ill have to log again to see. (ill start on tuesday logging again)

Steven Low
07-14-2008, 10:35 PM
I would say a combination. However, if you want mass/strength do much more heavy lifting than metcon/hiit/tabata though & it's easier to hold onto muscle mass while doing strength training when trying to drop the fat as well.

Mike ODonnell
07-15-2008, 06:33 AM
This probably got lost (as I added it too late to my other post) but I highly suggest reading the quotes from Lyle's book here:
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/blog/2008/07/09/plagiarism-part-2/

Goes into how to lose that stubborn bodyfat which will come down to insulin and hormones. You can find what works for you....but doing something like a 10-15min metcon/intervals at high intensity and then lower lifestyle activity (cardio if you want to call it that) for another 30-40 min will burn some major fat. Throw that along with a lower carb diet (only really eating enough to maintain intensity for lifting) and you should get the results you are after.

Also still comes down to needing a calorie deficit...and you mentioning that you eat alot of nuts (no giggling now), those are VERY high in calories....may need to cut down or eliminate them, and stick to other sources of protein that are not so high in calories (like steak and eggs).

Steve Forman
07-15-2008, 07:08 AM
This probably got lost (as I added it too late to my other post) but I highly suggest reading the quotes from Lyle's book here:
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/blog/2008/07/09/plagiarism-part-2/

Goes into how to lose that stubborn bodyfat which will come down to insulin and hormones. You can find what works for you....but doing something like a 10-15min metcon/intervals at high intensity and then lower lifestyle activity (cardio if you want to call it that) for another 30-40 min will burn some major fat.

Also still comes down to needing a calorie deficit...and you mentioning that you eat alot of nuts (no giggling now), those are VERY high in calories....may need to cut down or eliminate them, and stick to other sources of protein that are not so high in calories (like steak and eggs).

Thats some great advice mike. I think I am finally understanding the difference between metcon/intervals and "cardio"

I was reading last night, about the amount of calories in nuts, :eek: there are a ton. I definitly need to tailor those off for a while.


Here you go: I commit to this board for another 30 day challange. (I did the 30 day health challenge from the IF blog.) that was great!! I will cut the nuts, the fruit and the beer out completely for 30 days. I will add change my workouts to match the suggestions here, and I will report back to you in 30 days.

But I need to get my BF tested. what are your suggestions for that !!!

James Evans
07-15-2008, 08:05 AM
Even the good shit is bad when you have too much of it. Very easy to replace the bag of cookies a day with a bag of nuts AND a bag of dried fruit and believe you're winning.

Likewise fruit juice instead of soda is a false idol. And it will rot your teeth.

But I would be interested what you'd achieve (and hell, you've done amazingly well so far) with a break from the beers. That's a hard one though if you enjoy unwinding with a drink, particularly if that's something you share with your wife. I'm pretty lean but the Guinness (and the rest) keeps me off the cover of Men's Fitness. Thankfully (for everyone's sake).

Dave Van Skike
07-15-2008, 08:38 AM
Even the good shit is bad when you have too much of it. Very easy to replace the bag of cookies a day with a bag of nuts AND a bag of dried fruit and believe you're winning.

Likewise fruit juice instead of soda is a false idol. And it will rot your teeth.

But I would be interested what you'd achieve (and hell, you've done amazingly well so far) with a break from the beers. That's a hard one though if you enjoy unwinding with a drink, particularly if that's something you share with your wife. I'm pretty lean but the Guinness (and the rest) keeps me off the cover of Men's Fitness. Thankfully (for everyone's sake).

Guinness is low cal! 120 kcal per 12 oz.

It's that Belgian crap you need to stay away from.

James Evans
07-15-2008, 08:45 AM
Guinness is low cal! 120 kcal per 12 oz.

It's that Belgian crap you need to stay away from.

10 pints of the stuff in an evening mounts up though.

Brian Shanks
07-15-2008, 08:48 AM
Yea the beer adds up quick!
It is a sad thing!

Bry

Mike ODonnell
07-15-2008, 09:21 AM
10 pints of the stuff in an evening mounts up though.

Word!

Dave Van Skike
07-15-2008, 09:41 AM
10 pints of the stuff in an evening mounts up though.


Yeah...it's all analabolic like that.

James Evans
07-15-2008, 10:06 AM
Hatton downs 57 pints in 4 days!

Ricky Hatton took a hammering in his world title fight - so for the New Year he decided to get hammered again.

Over four days in Tenerife, the boxing hero dubbed The Hitman drained Spain with a binge that would have floored all opponents.

At the end of his titanic booze bout Hatton, 29, was reported to have sunk 57 pints, 17 vodka and Red Bulls, four vodkas, three whisky chasers, and a bottle of Moet champagne.

But, displaying the scars from last month's Las Vegas welterweight defeat to Floyd Mayweather Jnr, he was still standing.

Vowing to the Daily Mirror that his fighting career was not over, he declared: "You'll see me again in the ring. Unfortunately I lost in Vegas but that's the end of it."

Then the multi-millionaire joked: "A few more drinks and I won't remember anyway!"

Ricky saw out 2007 with girlfriend Jennifer Dooley, 26, in his new apartment in Tenerife's party capital of Playa de Las Americas. Despite his fortune, Ricky mixed it with holidaymakers in popular downtown bars such as Lineker's, The Dubliner and Blaydon Races.

Everywhere, fans begged to buy him a drink. Bar staff waved away his attempts to pay.

Round One began on Friday. Ricky downed six pints of lager near his flat. He then sank another three lagers, six pints of Guinness and five vodka and Red Bulls in Tramp nightclub.

Round Two the next day saw Ricky supping another six lagers in preparation for a night out at The Dubliner.

There, he polished off seven pints of Guinness, two pints of rum and the alcopop WKD, three whisky chasers, and three vodka and Red Bulls.

Before the boxer finally stumbled into a taxi at 3am, a witness said: "He was bladdered, totally blotto - but still an absolute gent."

Round Three on Sunday saw Ricky, of Stockport, despatch five pints of lager in various bars during the day. Then he whiled away the evening at Blaydon Races aided by five pints of Guinness, five vodka and Red Bulls and two vodkas.

Round Four on New Year's Eve had to be something special. Ricky limbered up with six pints of lager, a huge burger and extra large chips.

Two seats, guarded by bouncers, were reserved at Blaydon Races. Ricky and Jennifer arrived at 10pm to an impromptu chorus from revellers of Blue Moon, the Manchester City anthem which the fighter enters the ring to. The hero then settled in to seven pints of Guinness followed by four pints of rum and WKD.

At midnight, Hatton downed one bottle and shared the rest with friends. He then drank four vodka and Red Bulls and two vodka shots before leaving unsteadily at 3am.

A recommended weekly alcohol intake for men is about 22 units or 11 pints of weak beer. Ricky, who famously balloons by up to 40lbs between fights, had a bare minimum of 144 units in four days.


A British hero. Imagine what he'd have done if he'd won?!

Steve Forman
07-15-2008, 12:21 PM
But I would be interested what you'd achieve (and hell, you've done amazingly well so far) with a break from the beers. That's a hard one though if you enjoy unwinding with a drink, particularly if that's something you share with your wife. I'm pretty lean but the Guinness (and the rest) keeps me off the cover of Men's Fitness. Thankfully (for everyone's sake).

well, were going to find out. because I said, I will do it. but I need to have some stats, where can I get my BF tested? what do you recommend there.

Dave Van Skike
07-15-2008, 12:49 PM
well, were going to find out. because I said, I will do it. but I need to have some stats, where can I get my BF tested? what do you recommend there.

FWIW.

I've had calipers done by a PT, but he was a national level coach for the USCF so he's probably above average in terms of skill. Oddly, the numbers came out almost dead nuts on what the DOD calculator came up with at two different body fat levels, 11% & 18%. However, I wasn't much of a weightlifter at the time so not sure if this crude measure will hold up if you're carrying a lot of muscle.

article here.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/kurilla5.htm

pdf here.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/kurilla5.pdf

If it's aesthetics you're concerned you know how to measure that but if you're a numbers guy it might help.

Mike ODonnell
07-15-2008, 02:08 PM
well, were going to find out. because I said, I will do it. but I need to have some stats, where can I get my BF tested? what do you recommend there.

Find a training studio....walk in and tell them you want a BF%...pay $10 and realize that there is probably a 3-5% error swing in most electrical devices....handhelds will depend on the person doing it. Find someone who does bodybuilders and chances are they will do a better job....since the people they deal with all the time want accurate BF%.

Or just post a picture here and let us all guess at it.....

or here's a handy "guestimate" poster....feel free to print it out and use. (Disclaimer....may be a 0.1-10% error factor)
Q) Can you see Your Abs?
A #1) NOT REALLY - then you are probably 15+% BF depending on your overall body
A #2) I SEE A 4 PACK - then you are probably 13-11%
A #3) DUDE I AM RIPPED AND CAN PLAY THEM LIKE AN INSTRUMENT - then you are probably 8-6%