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Trygve Lunde
07-28-2008, 12:07 AM
Hello

First off i just want to say that i really love this forum and i really believe that IF and Paleo low carb is the way.

Im 22 years old and a professional soccer player, i also do weight lifting 2-3 times a week. im 180 cm, 84 kg and around 14 % BF. Ive bin following the Paleo low carb for some months now. During this time ive been trying different approches when it comes to calories and nutrition setup ( fat, protein and carb). My goal is to loose weight as in bodyfat % and to look better. I want to get under 10 at least so that i can run even longer and faster when i play soccer. As i said, my goal is fat loss and not loose the muscles i have now. I dont want to be any big body builder because i want gain anything on the soccer field. I want to have a body like brad pitt in Troja or some guys from the movie 300. Just so you get a picture what im aiming for. During this period its also important that my performance dont drop to much ( causing to low calories). Ive been trying 1600-1800 calories for some time, splitting in 100g fat, 120g protein and 40g carb. My energi level and everything has been really poor. Its like my legs dont want to stand up and walk, maybe thats because of the low carb im not sure. But im really hoping for much help regarding my food and my training. So my questions are

I train Mondag - Friday at 10:00 in the morning. The sessions is for 1-2 hours. Saturday is a day off, and Sunday is match day.

So i think my eating pattern should be. Eating starts after the soccer sessions, so around 12-1 a clock? and stops 8-9 a clock? ive been doing this for 3 days now. i have now problem woring out on empty stomach. Monday, Wednestay and Friday i do weight lifting sessions. Ive been doing different routines. But the question is, what is the best routine for me when you now my goals. Fat loss, better soccer player and of course look better.
In terms of exersices, reps and sets.

Also how should my eating window looke like in calories and how much from fat,protein and carb? what about PWO ? is it better to wait for an hour and then just eat a fat,protein and carb meal? or is the best to have a protein+carb shake right after training? of course i find it much better to eat real food since it taste a lot better, but its the goal that matters. So what do you think is the best?

When it comes to the meals, isnt it best to always start to eat the fat first? Not eating it all up, but lets say you have nuts, carrots and chicken for lunsj. Its best to start with some nuts and then mix it up as you like? since the main goal for Paleo low carb is to keep the insulin under control and fat doesnt do anything about it. Or doesnt it matter?

So how much should i be eating in calories and how much from fat, carb and protein. As you know soccer is a glycogen sport so i cant do to much carb, but i want fat as my main fuel since i know thats the way too go.

About fruit, ive heared that fructose isnt good at all. And from experience eating apples i feel kind of sick after eating one. I dont know why this is, i think apple tastes lovely but i think my stomach doesnt like it.

Should i have a carb day everey week? or a carb meal?

On sundays my match is at 6 a clock. So how should my eating pattern look like on this day to perform my best?

I think what was that, if ive forgotten something im going to add it here or in my replies :)

Mike ODonnell
07-28-2008, 07:30 AM
Keep it simple:

- Start slow (couple times a week or large eating window) if you want to IF weekdays....as you will need to eat to recovery properly
- Cycle your carbs (whole food) to replenish either after weight training or the day before a game
- Don't sweat the ratios...eat enough protein, fill in the fats and carbs around it. If you are not losing weight, eat less.
- You will not bulk up....I really wouldn't worry about that as you would need to eat a ton

Like any strategy....start with something....see what happens....make notes on what does work....what doesn't work.....there are always plenty of variables (esp total calories & macronutrient ratios) to change up and play with....the successful people are just the ones who can listen to their body, track results and understand when they need to change things up for better results.

Trygve Lunde
07-28-2008, 04:39 PM
ok thanx. You dont have any like rules for how much protein pr kg body weight etc. i should eat, and how much % fat should be of total calories so i will have the fat as fuel?

How about weight training sessions? how should i train in terms of reps, sets and exersices?

Steven Low
07-28-2008, 06:20 PM
Weight training should be based on both prehab and depending on what attributes you need increased for your sport... there's no right or wrong answer because it depends on your situation.

As for diet, I'll let MOD handle that.

Dave Van Skike
07-28-2008, 07:33 PM
The answer....

42. It's always 42.

Mike ODonnell
07-28-2008, 07:47 PM
ok thanx. You dont have any like rules for how much protein pr kg body weight etc. i should eat, and how much % fat should be of total calories so i will have the fat as fuel?

How about weight training sessions? how should i train in terms of reps, sets and exersices?

Sure I know all that....and the ebook will be available soon. :D

When in doubt...reps 1-3 build power.....reps of 5 builds strength.....sets of reps 10+ will build more size/hypertrophy....of course it can get more complicated than that. Start with 5x5s if you want strength....has worked for a long time.

Fat? As much as you need to maintain performance and still lose fat. Protein...could be 0.6-1g/lb of lean muscle. Carbs...all depends on how much you are depleting your muscles with workouts. Rule of thumb....if you up the carbs pwo, lower (or don't have any) fat.....if you up the fat, lower the carbs....protein should be pretty stable.

Trygve Lunde
07-28-2008, 11:21 PM
Thanx
Ive also posted on the crossfit forum and they told me that it wasnt possible to eat Paleo low carb style. They said i need to eat zone type of diet. And with zone i use carb as fuel for the brain? after reading all the books about fat as fuel for the brain etc. and everything about the insulin etc etc. i thaught that was the way to go ?


Sure I know all that....and the ebook will be available soon. :D

When in doubt...reps 1-3 build power.....reps of 5 builds strength.....sets of reps 10+ will build more size/hypertrophy....of course it can get more complicated than that. Start with 5x5s if you want strength....has worked for a long time.

Fat? As much as you need to maintain performance and still lose fat. Protein...could be 0.6-1g/lb of lean muscle. Carbs...all depends on how much you are depleting your muscles with workouts. Rule of thumb....if you up the carbs pwo, lower (or don't have any) fat.....if you up the fat, lower the carbs....protein should be pretty stable.

Steven Low
07-29-2008, 12:24 AM
Thanx
Ive also posted on the crossfit forum and they told me that it wasnt possible to eat Paleo low carb style. They said i need to eat zone type of diet. And with zone i use carb as fuel for the brain? after reading all the books about fat as fuel for the brain etc. and everything about the insulin etc etc. i thaught that was the way to go ?
Ugh. Fundamental misunderstanding of how the body works.

People recommend Zone because it encourages stability in caloric intake, and it is focused on insulin control. These are good things. But not be all end alls especially since people require different percentages of macros for their bodies to work optimally.

In any case, the brain ONLY uses glucose for fuel. However, not necessarily glucose from diet (e.g. lack of sugars in diet is good b/c of insulin control). If your diet is primarily composed of FAT the liver can break down lipids and metabolize them into glucose for the brain. You don't NEED to have carbs in your diet. You do need some essential amino acids and fats though.

Basically, since you're new don't worry about any of this stuff right now. Focus on getting your diet optimized for you; if it's paleo-IF great. Hopefully it will work well. If it doesn't, it can be modified to something that does. If you want to learn about more physiology later, that's great but look in a physiology textbook or an encyclopedia (wikipedia is getting better as it's sourced for most physiology now) so that works as well.

Good luck.

Jay Cohen
07-29-2008, 02:56 AM
Steve;

Good reply. I've clipped, pasted and saved for future reference.

Trygve Lunde
07-29-2008, 03:50 AM
I understand. But the thing is, my work as a soccer player requires carb since the intensity is higher then 75% av Maximum heart rate. And that means the muscles can only use glycogen as fuel. But for for the rest i have reason to believe that fat is the right fuel for the body and that the first people ate that as there food. So i think its the most suted for the body to work best. So the question is how can i do this? use fat as fuel and get enough carb so my performance on the soccer field will be great? do u you have any advice? regarding % from each carb, fat and protein. protein is ok since its around 1g/lb


Ugh. Fundamental misunderstanding of how the body works.

People recommend Zone because it encourages stability in caloric intake, and it is focused on insulin control. These are good things. But not be all end alls especially since people require different percentages of macros for their bodies to work optimally.

In any case, the brain ONLY uses glucose for fuel. However, not necessarily glucose from diet (e.g. lack of sugars in diet is good b/c of insulin control). If your diet is primarily composed of FAT the liver can break down lipids and metabolize them into glucose for the brain. You don't NEED to have carbs in your diet. You do need some essential amino acids and fats though.

Basically, since you're new don't worry about any of this stuff right now. Focus on getting your diet optimized for you; if it's paleo-IF great. Hopefully it will work well. If it doesn't, it can be modified to something that does. If you want to learn about more physiology later, that's great but look in a physiology textbook or an encyclopedia (wikipedia is getting better as it's sourced for most physiology now) so that works as well.

Good luck.

Darryl Shaw
07-29-2008, 06:09 AM
Trygve Lunde,

First off, Brad Pitt and those guys in 300 are pampered actors who only have to keep going until the director yells "cut" whereas you're a profesional athlete whose performance over 90 minutes pays the bills so you can't afford to screw around too much with your diet in case you harm your performance.
It would probably be a good idea therefore if you read a few sports nutrition books before trying IF, paleo or following the advice of some random asshole on the internet (apologies everyone). These days any half decent book store should have a shelf full of books on sports nutrition so there's plenty for you to choose from but I'd recommend anything by Anita Bean, Louise Burke or Nancy Clark and if after you've read them and you have some understanding of how your body might respond to changes in your diet you feel like experimenting with paleo or IF then go for it just remember that it's how you perform that counts not how you look.

Steven Low
07-29-2008, 08:40 AM
I understand. But the thing is, my work as a soccer player requires carb since the intensity is higher then 75% av Maximum heart rate. And that means the muscles can only use glycogen as fuel. But for for the rest i have reason to believe that fat is the right fuel for the body and that the first people ate that as there food. So i think its the most suted for the body to work best. So the question is how can i do this? use fat as fuel and get enough carb so my performance on the soccer field will be great? do u you have any advice? regarding % from each carb, fat and protein. protein is ok since its around 1g/lb

Sigh. Okay, seriously. Go read this thread.

http://www.performancemenu.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2736

You *DO NOT* need high carbs playing soccer, cycling, etc. If you are a person who operates well on high carbs, that's another story. But MOST people this is not the case and represents a misunderstanding in how much the body can provide energy for itself through lipid metabolism.

Trygve Lunde
07-29-2008, 12:45 PM
i understand what your saying. But i think there is so much more to nutrition thats why i really want to explore it and find the best approach to it, so i can reach my goals as a soccer player and my fat %. Maybe i should look for some of the books you mentioned, but its seems like all the sports people are carbs all the way no matter what. Thats why im a little sceptical because i know about the insulin and i know about all the good benefits from running your body on fat, but you cant run it on fat when the exersices becomes more intens ofcourse.


Trygve Lunde,

First off, Brad Pitt and those guys in 300 are pampered actors who only have to keep going until the director yells "cut" whereas you're a profesional athlete whose performance over 90 minutes pays the bills so you can't afford to screw around too much with your diet in case you harm your performance.
It would probably be a good idea therefore if you read a few sports nutrition books before trying IF, paleo or following the advice of some random asshole on the internet (apologies everyone). These days any half decent book store should have a shelf full of books on sports nutrition so there's plenty for you to choose from but I'd recommend anything by Anita Bean, Louise Burke or Nancy Clark and if after you've read them and you have some understanding of how your body might respond to changes in your diet you feel like experimenting with paleo or IF then go for it just remember that it's how you perform that counts not how you look.

Trygve Lunde
07-29-2008, 12:53 PM
My weekly schedule looks like this, so if it makes it easier for you guys to answear how much i should eat from fat,carb and protein here it is.

Sunday: Soccer game at 18:00 90 minutes
Monday: restitution 10:00 in the morning(jogging etc.) and strengt training (45 minutes 3x10 or 5x5 depends) also tell me what you think i should train.

Tuesday: Day off. Here im open for something that will make my body looks better, or performance in soccer increase or fat loss.

Wednestay: Soccer practice 10:00 in the morning. 1-2 hours high intensity. And strengt training after this session, any inputs?

Thursday: practice 10:00 1-2 hour high intensity

Friday: practice 10:00 in the morning, 1-2 hour moderate intensity. Should i do strengt training etc. after?

Saturday: day off, relaxing and preparing for match.

So any input on Food etc. when i have this schedule and for my goals. im around 15% body fat now. And i want to get much leaner. As you can see players like Cristiano Ronaldo etc. are very very lean and many other top players. And also mention things like IF, i dont have anything against working out on empty stomach? can i do IF 8/16 hour thing every day of the week? or is it to much? etc. any more inputs i would love :)

John Alston
07-29-2008, 01:27 PM
You are a professional athlete. Just by being that you've accomplished a lot more than 99.9% of net athletes.
Just curious as to what accomplishments you've seen from the above posters that makes you want to take their advice.

Trygve Lunde
07-29-2008, 01:28 PM
Hehe
i just want to improve all the time, and i think this is a place where there are many smart people.


You are a professional athlete. Just by being that you've accomplished a lot more than 99.9% of net athletes.
Just curious as to what accomplishments you've seen from the above posters that makes you want to take their advice.

Tom Rawls
07-29-2008, 02:41 PM
You *DO NOT* need high carbs playing soccer, cycling, etc.

Steven,

Do you know of any elite cyclists (e.g. ride in the Tour de France) who restrict carbs?

Is your advice more for receational athletes, who I presume would ride at lower intensity and be less likely to deplete glycogen supplies on long rides?

Mike ODonnell
07-29-2008, 04:10 PM
Carbs are not the enemy...and I agree...I don't know any professional athletes who go without it....the amounts and how you eat are up for debate. Better body composition will no doubt increase performance (in losing fat....well to a certain level as super low bf% will have a point of diminishing returns). From my personal experience of playing ice hockey....I am good for a whole game with full muscle glycogen....I bonk and get run down without it. Me and low carb for a game...ain't going to happen....but doesn't mean I am eating high carb all the time either. In my guess soccer does have explosive glycolitic burst to get a ball or get around defenders....so having no speed or impaired speed can be the difference between not making the team next year....or being the lead goal scorer.

Trygyve, Dr Rosedale has some good info on carbs and insulin if you want to learn more as I did a post about it here (http://projectfit.org/iflifeblog/2008/07/11/insulin-and-sugar-the-one-hormone-you-need-to-control-and-the-one-enemy-you-need-to-avoid/) and his original and longer transcript can be found here (http://drbass.com/rosedale2.html). Consider sugar your turbo boost...which is important to most sports. That and it can make the difference between being an average athlete or top on your team. You obviously got the skill part down...now if you can optimize the nutrition to best suit your body, you should see great results. Here's an interesting quote from Dr Rosedale:
With athletes, let's think about that. What is the effect of carbohydrate loading before an event. What happens if you eat a bowl of pasta before you have to run a marathon. What does that bowl of pasta do? It raises your insulin. What is the instruction of insulin to your body?

To store energy and not burn it. I see a fair amount of athletes and this is what I tell them, you want everybody, athletes especially, to be able to burn fat efficiently. So when they train, they are on a very low carbohydrate diet. The night before their event, they can stock up on sugar and load their glycogen if they would like.

They are not going to become insulin resistant in one day. Just enough to make sure, it has been shown that if you eat a big carbohydrate meal that you will increase your glycogen stores, that is true and that is what you want. But you don't want to train that way because if you do you won't be able to burn fat, you can only burn sugar, and if you are an athlete you want to be able to burn both.

Few people have problems burning sugar if they are an athlete, but they have lots of problems burning fat, so they hit the wall. And for a certain event like sprinting it is less important, truthfully, for their health it is very important to be able to burn fat, but a sprinter will go right into burning sugar. If you are a 50 yard dash man, whether you can burn fat or not is not going to make a huge difference in your final performance.

Lesson being...master the art of carb timing and cycling....if your goal is maximum body composition and performance.

Steven Low
07-29-2008, 06:33 PM
You are a professional athlete. Just by being that you've accomplished a lot more than 99.9% of net athletes.
Just curious as to what accomplishments you've seen from the above posters that makes you want to take their advice.

I concur. Find out what works for you. If you think something else can help you go for it. If you want to keep the same diet and it's working well then just stay with it.


Steven,

Do you know of any elite cyclists (e.g. ride in the Tour de France) who restrict carbs?

Is your advice more for receational athletes, who I presume would ride at lower intensity and be less likely to deplete glycogen supplies on long rides?

Uh? First, relative intensity is what matters for glycogen depletion at least intramuscularly. Secondly, intramuscular glycogen stores are LIMITED. Meaning, the more carbs you take in DOES NOT TRANSLATE to an increase in glycogen storage in the muscle after a certain point in training (pretty much past ~novice/intermediate level). For example, you will ALWAYS run out of glycogen reserves ~250-300m into a 400m sprint whether you're a novice or an elite athlete.

The liver has approximately 2000-2500 calories worth of glycogen stored it in to release during exercise. This is enough to take you 22-24 miles into a marathon without depletion; it's a whole hell of a lot of glycogen. Yes, high intensity exercise stimulates both lipolysis and glycogenolysis (via catecholamines, IL-6, etc. as you may have read in neuroendocrine reponse). Basically, your liver during exercise is pumping glucose into your blood which is being uptaken into muscle cells. Adding glucose peri-workout and post workout can help uptake albeit it's better when combined with protein (hence all studies on BCAAs and such).

In any case, massive carb macronutrient % for repletion of glycogen reserves basically does nothing at all *except* peri or post workout as stated. Again, as soon as intramuscular glycogen is full, the rest is going to adipose tissue. Since the body can metabolize fat to anything it wants (except essential amino acids and essential fatty acids), it can transform it into glucose for the muscles to resupply glycogen reserves. This is why I am saying you do not need a high carb diet. Some athletes may function well on it; some may even have elite performance. That does not mean that they wouldn't do better (or even would not do better) with a change in diet.

I think you all are misunderstanding what I am saying. Basically, I am saying that there is no reason to eat 70% carbs with every meal as main macros unless you're one of the few who function well on high carbs all the time. High fat percentage may be good; but it may be necessary to have sports drinks or whatever during or after a workout/game to keep performance levels high. Like MOD has said.. consider sugar the turbo boost during workout. But eating 70% carbs or higher the rest of the time isn't going to do crap to improve glycogen repletion or anything like that.

I hope this makes more sense.

Liam Dougherty Springer
07-29-2008, 06:43 PM
Lesson being...master the art of carb timing and cycling....if your goal is maximum body composition and performance.

Thanx MOD this is what I have been thinking/saying for a while and the quote really supports my thought. If insuline keeps us from burning fat, glycogen and even aids in sparing protien from consumtion it alows us only one pathway for energy, digested carbohydrates as blood glucose. This means as soon as you run out of blood sugar which will be either burned or stored a.s.a.p. you will be out of gas and the remaning insuline will make it impossible to tap your natural energy storage. The only way to get more energy at this point would be to down some sugar assuming you can rest long enough for you to absorb it which seems rather unlikely in professional soccer.

So how about a training low carb high fat then two days before a competition have a high rep anabolic workout (full body or concentrating on the primary muscles for your sport) and in the couple hours post have a couple hundred grams of glucose (Yams, carrots, sprouted grains, grapes, berries) . Then have a day of high fat "zone type eating" while you rest for the competition the next day. Have your last meal a few hours before you go to bed and eat light and very low carb leading into the competition. It seems this could very well leave you full of glycogen well rested, recovered and ready for maximum stored energy use.

I don't know it is just something I have played with givin alot of the info I have come across.... any one have an opinion?

Steven Low
07-29-2008, 06:53 PM
Thanx MOD this is what I have been thinking/saying for a while and the quote really supports my thought. If insuline keeps us from burning fat, glycogen and even aids in sparing protien from consumtion it alows us only one pathway for energy, digested carbohydrates as blood glucose. This means as soon as you run out of blood sugar which will be either burned or stored a.s.a.p. you will be out of gas and the remaning insuline will make it impossible to tap your natural energy storage. The only way to get more energy at this point would be to down some sugar assuming you can rest long enough for you to absorb it which seems rather unlikely in professional soccer.

This is why it's bad to ingest foods high in sugar PRE workout. Well, besides the fact that blood is diverted to digestive tract instead of muscles... and with high intensity exercise can cause some nice throwing up. :)

As many of you know, there's a bunch of studies out there on carbs before working leading to decreased performance.

So how about a training low carb high fat then two days before a competition have a high rep anabolic workout (full body or concentrating on the primary muscles for your sport) and in the couple hours post have a couple hundred grams of glucose (Yams, carrots, sprouted grains, grapes, berries) . Then have a day of high fat "zone type eating" while you rest for the competition the next day. Have your last meal a few hours before you go to bed and eat light and very low carb leading into the competition. It seems this could very well leave you full of glycogen well rested, recovered and ready for maximum stored energy use.

I don't know it is just something I have played with givin alot of the info I have come across.... any one have an opinion?

Sounds like it could work well. Depends on the person though. If they're not fat adapted (aka have always eaten 70%+ carbs)... gonna be crap regardless.

Trygve Lunde
07-29-2008, 11:24 PM
thank you for great replies

i think im starting to get it now. But of course i have to find the % of wich should come from carbs. but from 30 minutes - 2-3 hours after my soccer/weight lifting practice i should then eat the majority of the carbs during that day? and then my second and/if third meal should be protein and fat mainly.

I think then, i can eat around 100-150g carbs in that meal after practice? our lunsj after training sessions is. Bread, pasta, banana, apples, cheese and other things to put on the bread. What of this sources should i choose? and the hard part is that there is not protein to choose from. Sometimes there is some eggs, should i eat only the white then ?


And my second meal should be very much protein and around 70g fat and some veggies. I guess this will make my body still use fat as fuel but have enough glycogen in the muscles to perform well. Ive also seen like you mention mike that people use 2 days of low carb, and 1 day of high? etc etc. this can also be an alternative? but the best is maybe to just eat much carb PWO with protein and no fat. The day before the game i can take a carb load day if i feel the need and contiune low carb during the match day.

What about IF ? i think this is a really nice consept that i should apply in to my regime?

Liam Dougherty Springer
07-30-2008, 05:46 AM
Trygve, Some of the best advice I have gotten around here is don't over complicate things. It sounds like you are at a good starting point.

As far as food choices for carbs I go for fruit post workout graes and berries are comparatively high in glucose for muscle glycogen and I also like coconut water O.N.E. is my favorite it is high in electrolites and potasium as well as having some easy access sugars sort of a natural gatorade. I also often here of using yams which are even higher in glucose than any fruit.

Fat for fuel is more about staying away from insulin than anything from what I understand. Eating fat simply makes up for the needed calories to keep from muscle loss in the "proper humen diet". Both choosing somedays to eat less or lower G.I. foods for carbs Post Work Out (PWO) and/or IF would both qualify for significant time with the abscence of high insulin levels. Like Mike says listen to your body, don't get to crazy right off the bat. I mean you are paid to perform so I would be sure that you are definately in good shape for the game, for now that probrably would mean eat some good carbs in your diet the day before.

Allen Yeh
07-30-2008, 05:58 AM
Steven,

Do you know of any elite cyclists (e.g. ride in the Tour de France) who restrict carbs?

Is your advice more for receational athletes, who I presume would ride at lower intensity and be less likely to deplete glycogen supplies on long rides?

I don't have a dog in this fight either way and it has been a while since I read the book but I seem to recall that Paleo Diet for Athletes had some elite cyclists cited?

Darryl Shaw
07-30-2008, 06:01 AM
Hehe
i just want to improve all the time, and i think this is a place where there are many smart people.

There might be a lot of smart people here but I'm betting that not many of them have played a full 90 minutes of football in their lives so they have no idea of how physically demanding the game is.

.................................................. ....................


For all those who haven't played football before imagine two back to back 45 minute Tabata workouts and you'll have some idea of how intense can be; if you aren't sprinting flat out you're running to keep up with play. There is no way anyone can keep going at that pace for that length of time without eating a high carb diet. Trygve's training schedule is just as demanding -

Sunday: Soccer game at 18:00 90 minutes
Monday: restitution 10:00 in the morning(jogging etc.) and strengt training (45 minutes 3x10 or 5x5 depends) also tell me what you think i should train.

Tuesday: Day off. Here im open for something that will make my body looks better, or performance in soccer increase or fat loss.

Wednestay: Soccer practice 10:00 in the morning. 1-2 hours high intensity. And strengt training after this session, any inputs?

Thursday: practice 10:00 1-2 hour high intensity

Friday: practice 10:00 in the morning, 1-2 hour moderate intensity. Should i do strengt training etc. after?

Saturday: day off, relaxing and preparing for match.

There is no way Trygve could realistically expect to survive a week of high intensity training and play a competitive match at the end of the week unless he's eating a high carb diet.

Also lets not forget that while it's fine to have theoretical debates over the merits of high carb vs low carb diets, fat adaptation, insulin control or whatever this is Trygve's career we're potentially screwing up. At the professional level if a player starts a match with depleted glycogen stores the opposition will be running rings round him before half time and if it happens more than once or twice they'll soon get a reputation for having poor fitness or a general lack of stamina. Managers and fans remember that kind of thing and once a player starts getting a reputation for poor fitness it can follow them for the rest of their career.

.................................................. ........


Trygve, the smartest thing you could do if you want to improve your diet or if you just want lower your bodyfat a little would be read some books on sports nutrition then find a registered sports nutritionist who has experience dealing with professional footballers so they can tailor a diet plan to your specific needs.

Trygve Lunde
07-30-2008, 06:01 AM
your on the right track there. thats part of my problem, i really want to find the magic formula and then i have a tendency to complicate things.

I read the http://fitnessblackbook.com/dieting_for_fat_loss/the-perfect-diet-plan-part-ii/

those two parts and i think that is the way i should to it. 2 days of low carb, and 1 day of high carb in the 8 hour eating window. since im doing IF as well. The only thing is that what is low carb on low carb days, around 30 ? or maybe none?

and on high carb days i should aim for like around 300g carbs i think. Protein stays the same at 150g every day.

I think by this i will get the best of both worlds, fat as fuel for my body and enough carb to perform well. And i will also get the leanest possible body that i want.

on this high carb days, can i eat bread or any other kind instead of only fruits and veggies? i know its not optional but can i get away with it ?

Any comments or inputs?


Trygve, Some of the best advice I have gotten around here is don't over complicate things. It sounds like you are at a good starting point.

As far as food choices for carbs I go for fruit post workout graes and berries are comparatively high in glucose for muscle glycogen and I also like coconut water O.N.E. is my favorite it is high in electrolites and potasium as well as having some easy access sugars sort of a natural gatorade. I also often here of using yams which are even higher in glucose than any fruit.

Fat for fuel is more about staying away from insulin than anything from what I understand. Eating fat simply makes up for the needed calories to keep from muscle loss in the "proper humen diet". Both choosing somedays to eat less or lower G.I. foods for carbs Post Work Out (PWO) and/or IF would both qualify for significant time with the abscence of high insulin levels. Like Mike says listen to your body, don't get to crazy right off the bat. I mean you are paid to perform so I would be sure that you are definately in good shape for the game, for now that probrably would mean eat some good carbs in your diet the day before.

Trygve Lunde
07-30-2008, 07:13 AM
Thank you for great respons.
I have experienced many times during soccer practice that my energi wasnt there due to glycogen depleting muscles and when that happend i was smoked. So i want let that happend again. I know that many people in the soccer industry is all about CARB CARB CARB and low fat. But i think many researches have proved that there is something about fat as well.

So my goal for this post was to get the best of both worlds as i mentioned. fat as fuel for everything exept when i have high intensity etc etc like soccer when glycogen is the only fuel possible, and the best. And as i said in the post before this one, how about the approach of 1 high carb day and two low carb days with high fat ?


There might be a lot of smart people here but I'm betting that not many of them have played a full 90 minutes of football in their lives so they have no idea of how physically demanding the game is.

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For all those who haven't played football before imagine two back to back 45 minute Tabata workouts and you'll have some idea of how intense can be; if you aren't sprinting flat out you're running to keep up with play. There is no way anyone can keep going at that pace for that length of time without eating a high carb diet. Trygve's training schedule is just as demanding -



There is no way Trygve could realistically expect to survive a week of high intensity training and play a competitive match at the end of the week unless he's eating a high carb diet.

Also lets not forget that while it's fine to have theoretical debates over the merits of high carb vs low carb diets, fat adaptation, insulin control or whatever this is Trygve's career we're potentially screwing up. At the professional level if a player starts a match with depleted glycogen stores the opposition will be running rings round him before half time and if it happens more than once or twice they'll soon get a reputation for having poor fitness or a general lack of stamina. Managers and fans remember that kind of thing and once a player starts getting a reputation for poor fitness it can follow them for the rest of their career.

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Trygve, the smartest thing you could do if you want to improve your diet or if you just want lower your bodyfat a little would be read some books on sports nutrition then find a registered sports nutritionist who has experience dealing with professional footballers so they can tailor a diet plan to your specific needs.

Liam Dougherty Springer
07-30-2008, 01:30 PM
The Performance Menu issue which is availiable for free at the store has an article on glycogen replenishment and it has some relevant links to clinical study research.

It might help you decide on your recovery meal carbohydrate portions.

Craig Loizides
07-30-2008, 02:44 PM
You might want to take a look at The Paleo Diet For Athletes. It's pretty much what others have recommended which is low carb paleo plus extra carbs before, during, and after workouts. I think you end up somewhere around 40-50% carbs but since it is low carb most of the day you still get the benefits of improved insulin sensitivity and ability to use fat as fuel. It takes most people 2-4 weeks to become adapted to a diet like this if you're used to a high carb all the time diet. After a month or so you might want to experiment with occasionally skipping the extra carbs after a practice or doing some IF.

I don't think anyone would recommend going into a match with low levels of glycogen but there are different methods of refueling. There's high carb all the time which is what most people do. Or carbs only around workouts (paleo for athletes). Or low carb during the week with carbloads on weekends and maybe once midweek (metabolic diet). Or some combination of them. You need to find what works best for you, but I think most people can do better than high carb all the time as long as they're willing to go through the month long adaptation phase.

Craig Loizides
07-30-2008, 03:27 PM
Other thoughts/questions on this thread:

For example, you will ALWAYS run out of glycogen reserves ~250-300m into a 400m sprint whether you're a novice or an elite athlete.

The liver has approximately 2000-2500 calories worth of glycogen stored it in to release during exercise. This is enough to take you 22-24 miles into a marathon without depletion; it's a whole hell of a lot of glycogen.

Steven, I've been wondering about this. I thought the liver had about 100g stored glycogen and the body had a total of 2000-2500 calories stored. Am I wrong here? Either way why does a 400m sprinter run out at 250m and a marathoner at 20 miles?

This is why it's bad to ingest foods high in sugar PRE workout. Well, besides the fact that blood is diverted to digestive tract instead of muscles... and with high intensity exercise can cause some nice throwing up.
If it's immediately before a workout and easily digestible it can usually be helpful (for endurance activities anyway). You can try experimenting with 8-16 ounces of gatorade 5-10 minutes before a workout. A glucose based drink might be even better than gatorade.

graes and berries are comparatively high in glucose
nutritiondata.com has grapes and berries at roughly 50% glucose/50% fructose along with most fruits and vegetables (apples and pears are only bout 35%). It seems that only starchy fruits and vegetables have more glucose : carrots 60%, bananas 65%, sweet potato 100%. I'd be curious to see other numbers if you have them.

Liam Dougherty Springer
07-30-2008, 04:27 PM
Other thoughts/questions on this thread:





nutritiondata.com has grapes and berries at roughly 50% glucose/50% fructose along with most fruits and vegetables (apples and pears are only bout 35%). It seems that only starchy fruits and vegetables have more glucose : carrots 60%, bananas 65%, sweet potato 100%. I'd be curious to see other numbers if you have them.

Actually thanx I have been using NUtritionData for quite some time don't know how I missed its glucose/fructose numbers I have been wanting a source for that for quite some time. I got the grapes ans berries thing from a couple of articles and affiliated references by Robb Wolf in the PM. The bannana (65/35) info is quite usefull I thought it may be high in glucose ginin it is high in the Glycimic Index.

I think the reason berries were suggested is exactly what you showed about pears and apples 35/65 and I wonder about other tree fruits like peaches, oranges and plums. I am going to NutData right now. Anyway 35/65 G/F as compared to 50/50 is actualy a very significant difference as far as the amount of glucose. Think of how much less fructose will be consumed at 50/50 to make up an equal amount of glucose from 35/65 almost half the amount.

Corn syrup, cane, and table sugar (sucrose) is 50/50 maybe different molecularly though. Don't know how that plays into the whole picture.

Steven?

Steven Low
07-30-2008, 06:14 PM
Other thoughts/questions on this thread:

Steven, I've been wondering about this. I thought the liver had about 100g stored glycogen and the body had a total of 2000-2500 calories stored. Am I wrong here? Either way why does a 400m sprinter run out at 250m and a marathoner at 20 miles?

I think you're right.

There's total body glycogen depletion (well, enough to keep the brain operating but mass fatigue) at ~20-22 or so miles in marathon. Well, ~100kcal per mile so total body glycogen is used to run = total depletion.

Well, we gotta realize that it's not static; if the body needs fuel in a certain area the hormones given off (catecholamines, glucocorticoids, steroids, etc.) are going to tell adipose tissue and liver and probably other muscles to give up energy (in the form of fat/glucose and if necessary amino acids) to where the body needs it (e.g. the muscles doing the work).

But in any case, local muscular depletion of glycogen is the reason why 400m runners die at 250-300m. At high enough intensity in the muscles being used in running, the rate of glycogen consumption far exceeds the body's ability to pump glucose into the blood to send to the muscles working. Thus, you hit that hump when you run out.

In marathon, the runners are running at a sustainable pace where body can provide enough glucose into bloodstream & uptake is fast enough to keep the running muscles in equilibrium. But then you hit that wall when there's very little and gotta run on fat. Which is why you need to be fat adapted at least somewhat. Same with Tour de France -- first 2 days are hard as hell and then the 3 day it gets easier.. because your body is adapting to fat as a major source of fuel.


If it's immediately before a workout and easily digestible it can usually be helpful (for endurance activities anyway). You can try experimenting with 8-16 ounces of gatorade 5-10 minutes before a workout. A glucose based drink might be even better than gatorade.

Yep. Has to be very close to workout; if not starting during. If it's like 30 minutes you get a nice insulin spike which messes with energy levels though.

Greg Battaglia
07-31-2008, 11:25 AM
Trygve,

Get fat-adapted first. Go low carb paleo, tons of green veggies, LOTS of clean fats (from grass-fed meat, grass-fed butter, pastured eggs, olive oil, nuts, avocados), and adequate levels of protein (for you this means 1 g/lb of lean body mass). Once you become fat-adapted (you'll know because your energy will increase dramatically and you'll crave fat instead of carbs when you get hungry) your body will use fat for all activities other than glycogen-dependent training like an actual soccer game, for instance. With this is mind you'll want to implement small carb-ups (like including moderate levels of carbs in meals preceding a game or intense practice. During these times the best carbs you can take in are paleo-starches like sweet potatoes, yams, carrots, butternut squash, pumpkin, beets, parsnips, etc. and small amounts of fruit.

You DON'T want to eat huge meals consisting of solely carbs once your fat-adapted. The key is to eat paleo/low-carb most of the time and eat paleo plus more carbs around events requiring glycogen.

I don't know your specific schedule, so I can't recommend anything for IF, but If you really want me to get specific you can drop me a PM or e-mail me at gc_battaglia@neumann.edu

Hope this helps

Trygve Lunde
07-31-2008, 12:00 PM
i pm`ed you :)


Trygve,

Get fat-adapted first. Go low carb paleo, tons of green veggies, LOTS of clean fats (from grass-fed meat, grass-fed butter, pastured eggs, olive oil, nuts, avocados), and adequate levels of protein (for you this means 1 g/lb of lean body mass). Once you become fat-adapted (you'll know because your energy will increase dramatically and you'll crave fat instead of carbs when you get hungry) your body will use fat for all activities other than glycogen-dependent training like an actual soccer game, for instance. With this is mind you'll want to implement small carb-ups (like including moderate levels of carbs in meals preceding a game or intense practice. During these times the best carbs you can take in are paleo-starches like sweet potatoes, yams, carrots, butternut squash, pumpkin, beets, parsnips, etc. and small amounts of fruit.

You DON'T want to eat huge meals consisting of solely carbs once your fat-adapted. The key is to eat paleo/low-carb most of the time and eat paleo plus more carbs around events requiring glycogen.

I don't know your specific schedule, so I can't recommend anything for IF, but If you really want me to get specific you can drop me a PM or e-mail me at gc_battaglia@neumann.edu

Hope this helps