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Brandon Oto
08-12-2008, 01:45 PM
(Crossposted from the CF forums)

Here's the program I was working on. http://agt.degreesofclarity.com/ wfs

(It's currently sitting on my personal site; it may or may not get relocated in the future.)

This is a very modifiable and user-created program, so if anyone tries it out I heartily encourage posting here with workouts you tried or tweaks you used that worked well -- or ones that didn't. Also, for everyone who was testing out some version of this over the past couple weeks, I'd appreciate if you could post here with your experiences. There is nothing writ on stone tablets here; not only will it continue to be improved and developed based on feedback, but it emphasizes user customization anyway, so if something's not working for you it should be pretty easy to try something else. That's why more ideas to play with is Good.

This is based in many ways on Gant Grimes's Hybrid programming, so if you like that, this may also work well for you. For people currently doing the CF WoD, the takeaway difference here is that you'll be doing less metcon and more other stuff.

Any questions or other remarks can be posted here and I'll do my best to answer them. Understand, of course, that this is fresh from the oven, so neither I nor anyone else has much more experience with the program than you do.

Patrick Donnelly
08-17-2008, 09:44 AM
This looks too complicated.

Allen Yeh
08-18-2008, 08:35 AM
Do you have a couple of people already doing this? If so do you have links to workout logs?

Steven Low
08-18-2008, 09:43 AM
This looks too complicated.
It's fairly simple actually. It's a lot of text to wade through, but the programming is fairly simple. If you wanted some randomized programming instead of picking and matching that's where you're gonna have to make up your own randomized system (so far).

Like Allen I'd be interested to see who is doing what and what results.

Brandon Oto
08-18-2008, 10:34 AM
Tirzah's got a log at CF where she spent some time with it as one of the testers (not sure if she still is) -- not very strictly, but that's no crime. http://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=32470&page=5#43

I have emailed feedback from other testers, but I'm not sure if they'd want it distributed publicly. Maybe I'll ask. Mostly the downsides involved people still figuring out the scheduling with the occasional result of their workouts taking too long (a lot of people did too much skill work, and some folks just take a really long time to lift). The upsides were, well, it worked, and people were able to fairly easily do a whole lot of manhandling to manipulate it for their sports or limitations. One guy was using a fencer's version, one guy had a bum knee, one guy was practicing his breakdancing, and so on.

Neill Smith
08-18-2008, 01:16 PM
Why do sprints before strength?

Brandon Oto
08-18-2008, 01:21 PM
Seemed to make the most sense with the schedule. What's your idea?

A few people had the idea of putting them after the lifting, which I'm open to if it works for you, but I think the majority will do better with the speed first.

Neill Smith
08-18-2008, 01:33 PM
Seemed to make the most sense with the schedule. What's your idea?

A few people had the idea of putting them after the lifting, which I'm open to if it works for you, but I think the majority will do better with the speed first.

It's not well thought out enough to be an idea, more of a habit. At some point I got it into my head that strength always comes first (following warming up).

How does sprinting compare to strength work in terms of energy pathways and resource utilization? Would that be the right way to decide on which comes first?

Brandon Oto
08-18-2008, 01:38 PM
Sprinting and other speed work (like Oly) is traditionally done before strength, because it relies heavily on actual power output. If you're fatigued, and hence moving slowly, then you're not training speed anymore, you're training slowness; developing the fast-twitch fibers and neurological activation pathways doesn't work well if you're already beat. (This also applies to anything with a skill requirement, such as Oly again.)

Of course, your squats are also better if you're not fatigued already, but they're more forgiving, and your sprints should be low enough in volume that they're not significantly taxing you, at least once you've adapted a bit.

Steven Low
08-18-2008, 05:56 PM
I tend to do program like this (if anyone was wondering my justification):

1. warmup
2. skill work
3. explosive/eccentrics/isometrics (that order)
4. strength
5. endurance/conditioning (includes tabata/HIIT/metcon)
6. flexibility

Sprints can fall under explosive work OR conditioning work. It depends how you're programming them. GENERALLY, I like them at the end because max effort sprints is extremely taxing on the CNS where you probably can't get good strength work (or you won't want to do strength work) after you have done them. That's just me though.. shrug.

Brandon Oto
08-18-2008, 10:00 PM
Yep, this is basically the pattern I followed. The sprints are exclusively meant as speed training (well, you can use them as conditioning too, but as you can see that stuff is programmed and scheduled differently). They're meant to be low enough in volume that they don't mess you up much for the lifting; if they are conflicting, then they should be reduced. (For athletes trying sprints for the first time, this may indeed be difficult, and cutting down is fine.) But in most cases, at least, I'd rather you reduce the sprints than cut your strength session in half, according to the hierarchy of priority.

Brandon Oto
08-19-2008, 11:23 AM
Like Allen I'd be interested to see who is doing what and what results.

Ran into someone else who looks to have just picked it up here (http://sweeptheleg-crossfit.blogspot.com/).

Chris Wood
08-19-2008, 01:45 PM
I came to post and let you know that I was starting your program. Thanks for finding me out.

I would consider myself an "intermediate" trainee with the following vitals:

36 yo, 5'11", 170 lb

CFT 835 (DL 405, squat 280, press 150)
C&J 185
Snatch 135
Fran 5:40
Helen 9:45
Cindy 21 rounds

I've lurked around here for a while, and after some discussion with my fellow trainees at TitanFit, stumbled upon your program and Gant's. I liked the template you proposed, and the flexibility in choosing the skill work. I also like the set up with 2 short MetCons and 1 longer MetCon, in addition to the O-lift and strength work. I'm looking forward to see how things progress over the next couple of months.

Thanks for putting this out, Brandon.

Brandon Oto
08-20-2008, 08:17 AM
Thanks Chris.

Here's another tester's log (Ger): http://fit2fence.blogspot.com/

He found the volume difficult (for time/recovery/equipment), otherwise enjoyable. He'll still be doing his version until he's back in season.

Tirzah Harper
08-26-2008, 12:40 PM
finally, some feedback from me...

I did this for about two weeks, roughly, modified.
It's too much time for me, for one thing - on a GOOD day I have an hour in the gym - and too much metcon, but that's specific to my adrenal/stress issues.
I liked the direct inclusion of specific drill/skill learning work; I didn't take it as far as I probably could have due to general self-consciousness.

The sprint work was fun, but left me SHOT for lifting afterwards. I'm not sure if pre- or post-lifting would be better.

Also, I had to read through the whole thing about three times before feeling like I knew what I was going to be doing!

Conclusion: It's not a bad program, but it's not right for me at this point. I'd recommend it to my oldest stepson, who's 17 with time and energy coming out his ears, or anyone else with more time and energy in the gym than me.

Brandon Oto
08-29-2008, 07:25 PM
Thanks Tirzah. Sounds about right.

Blair Lowe
09-02-2008, 01:43 AM
Part of me is elitist and phite and thinks along the lines that if you cannot figure it all out because it is vague, it's ok because you probably shouldn't be doing it yourself. It is dizzying to read. Do you want to have a gymnastics lean, sprinting, lean, PL lean, OL lean, hell endurance lean. It all gets really complicated and perhaps that is a good thing. However, templates could be made, I guess.

I would prefer to sprint, oly lift, or power lift, but never mixed. I don't mind running after lifting, but not to efficiently work on sprinting with the intent to improve.

Brandon Oto
09-03-2008, 01:45 AM
Do you want to have a gymnastics lean, sprinting, lean, PL lean, OL lean, hell endurance lean. It all gets really complicated and perhaps that is a good thing.

Yes. One of the things I'm trying to do is list customizations that worked well for people. I gave some vague ideas on the front page (including all of the above except gymnastics and sprinting) but those aren't tested, just general notions following the underlying theory, and more ideas based on empirical feedback will continue to be necessary to see what works.

I would prefer to sprint, oly lift, or power lift, but never mixed. I don't mind running after lifting, but not to efficiently work on sprinting with the intent to improve.

Is this just the ex-track athlete in you speaking? I'll readily acknowledge that a decent sprinter won't be able to progress under these conditions, but I'd imagine that an all-arounder, especially one without much sprinting experience (e.g. CFers), could get much further along.

I could be wrong. The sprinting component has caused the most trouble so far overall.

Craig Loizides
09-03-2008, 06:51 AM
Whenever possible I do my running and lifting in separate workouts. My preference is lifting during lunch and running after work.