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Allen Yeh
08-19-2008, 08:01 AM
Anyone do them? Good or bad experiences?

I put them in there today to give them a whirl after reading a multitude of different threads in various places and I'll keep them in there for at least 5 more weeks just to see. I found the movement a bit awkward and it was very counter intuitive to me to let go of the bar and regrip after every rep. Perhaps I was doing it wrong but I don't think so.

1. Larger than shoulder width grip, hips high, lower back arched or flat, not rounded. I ended up putting a rubber pad under my feet to increase the height a bit due to my longer than normal arms and shorter than normal legs.
2. Pull to lower chest/upper abdomen area explosively without moving hips.
3. Lower the weight and deload

Am I missing anything?

Dave Van Skike
08-19-2008, 08:39 AM
They are a staple for me and a lot of my training partners. hips stay in the same place but your back should give the weifght a little heave to cheat the bar to your chest. don't be afraid to use a belt..go heavier than you think and cheat more than you think is correct at first then work the weight down to soemthing you only cheat a little. huge carryover to deadlifts and oddly.... pullups. I shoot for at least 60% of my deadlift work set weight. so if i'm doing tripples in the high 4's, i'm rowing around 275 for triples.

Allen Yeh
08-19-2008, 09:01 AM
What about the deloading part? Do you let go of the bar, do you re-grip? I've read different things as I tried sorting through all the information yesterday. I also read things talking about if you want your upper back to be relaxed or do you want it tight. I was trying to keep it simple with what I described above.

Do you recommend triples for this exercise? I was originally planning on staying the course with 5 x 5 (incrementing) and see where that gets me. To be perfectly honest I've never done a 5 x 5 for more than a few weeks, in the past I've always been one of those impatient f'ers that wanted to add more weight than I should have and ended up getting frustrated after plateuaing...blah blah blah. I need to stop this training ADD shit. I'm really trying to reign in the ego lifting right now and make steady progress. Speaking of which I've been ignoring a goals list lately. Procrastination is a biatch.

Frank Needham
08-19-2008, 10:05 AM
Its hard to keep in mind sometimes but 5x5 works so well coz it will allow you to keep adding that little bit extra over a long period and then voila!, you've added 30/40/50 or more lbs to the movement. Pretty cool stuff. I've been using 5x5 a lot and its working for me. But then again, I've not really dealt with the plateau issue yet.

Dave Van Skike
08-19-2008, 10:14 AM
What about the deloading part? Do you let go of the bar, do you re-grip? I've read different things as I tried sorting through all the information yesterday. I also read things talking about if you want your upper back to be relaxed or do you want it tight. I was trying to keep it simple with what I described above.

Do you recommend triples for this exercise? I was originally planning on staying the course with 5 x 5 (incrementing) and see where that gets me. To be perfectly honest I've never done a 5 x 5 for more than a few weeks, in the past I've always been one of those impatient f'ers that wanted to add more weight than I should have and ended up getting frustrated after plateuaing...blah blah blah. I need to stop this training ADD shit. I'm really trying to reign in the ego lifting right now and make steady progress. Speaking of which I've been ignoring a goals list lately. Procrastination is a biatch.


definetly the deload at the bottom I think that's how it got the name "pendlay row" becuase he really stresses that every rep start from a dead stop at the floor. That's the way we do them. I don't usually reset at the bottom, I use a hook grip or if I'm really really tired I'll use strpas. If I need to go lighter and work grip I'll use an axle..in which case i sometimes will need to reset grip.

reps... actaully I do fives most of the time. but not 5x5..we throw rows in either at the end of a general pulling day or as a seperate back day all together. so soemtimes the first two sets of 5 are not done. usually it would just ramp quickly to one top set of five on pull day.

On a all around back day, where I've already done stuff like rack pulls, tire, or maybe sled pulling in that case I'll go like this:
185x5
225x5
245x5
265x5
285x5

If I'm doing rows at the end of a dedicated pull day (deads from floor, either rack work or extended deads and then a final few sets of rowing, I'd go sharp and fast

185x5
265x5
305x3 (or 4 or whatever I get)

does that make sense?

Garrett Smith
08-19-2008, 11:58 AM
I like them, FWIW.

Great functional stretch for the hamstrings if done correctly, working isometric strength in the stretched position (along with the pulling strength, obviously).

Allen Yeh
08-20-2008, 02:34 AM
Makes perfect sense.

I was thinking I'd be doing something similiar to what you outlined in your all back day (not quite as much weight as you though) as I'd be doing these on an upper body day.

Thanks.

Tom Rawls
08-20-2008, 02:40 PM
Being a literal rower, I do some barbell rows. What are the merits of the Pendlay row vs. a more upright row? And vice versa?

Greg Everett
08-20-2008, 02:40 PM
If I recall correctly, he wants each rep actually started with a slightly rounded back to get the lats to help in back extension as the rep begins.

Allen Yeh
08-21-2008, 06:29 AM
If I recall correctly, he wants each rep actually started with a slightly rounded back to get the lats to help in back extension as the rep begins.

Upper back rounding right? I've read differing things but the way I tried it was so that I could round my upper back on when the bar was on the floor.

Frank Needham
08-21-2008, 09:19 AM
huge carryover to deadlifts and oddly.... pullups. I shoot for at least 60% of my deadlift work set weight. so if i'm doing tripples in the high 4's, i'm rowing around 275 for triples.

This interests me as I'm thinking how I might rearrange my lifts to accomadate the longer days I face when classes start up again. Deads on a long day of work/school/study/family stuff just fry me to the bone. Could these be used instead of deads occasionally and still expect gains when throwing the deads back into one's workout?

Dave Van Skike
08-21-2008, 09:55 AM
No. But like a politician, I'll answer the question I wished that you had asked....

You'll see this repeated in different areas: deadlifts are weird. I might be able to deadlift every other day for a week you might need 3 days rest between, someone else might need 2 weeks.

seems to depend on a bunch of different stuff, training age, chronological age, loading, other training experience, deadlift technique, deadlift style..whether you do other stupid crap (CF :) )........

Steve Shafely wrote a great little piece called "deadlift voodoo"...and the title pretty much sums it up...it's all sort of quasi magic.

Here's some suggestions. Keep in mind I'm an underachieving natural deadlifter, monkey long arms but no fast twitch to speak of and a high mileage set of knees and back. By no means the best DL'er here or anywhere but here's what I did/do.....

Start with Rippatoe/Pendlay's suggestion of one set of 5 every week on a light squat day, if you recover from that and the DL is moving steadily up...dont' F with it...if you are recovering but deadlift is flat, pick a day 72 hours after DL and add deadlift assistence..rotate assist between rack pulls (or better yet, pulls from blocks) and extended deads (snatch grip, stand on a box or even straight leg)...if this gets the DL moving, don't F with it.

if this doesn't work, try a big pull day every other week. on this day works 5's for a couple sessions, then 3's for a couple sessions, then a week of doubles and singles. Try to hit three or more work sets if you can hack it and at least one other DL assist (rack, clean hi pulls, snatch grip or DL on a box) rotate the assist. always incluide a row: DB or BB.

on the non DL weeks, make sure you are back squatting, if possible to a box, high box, with high load can be magic here but low box is good for everything else so ddo those too..and always include a heavy row on the non DL week.

other misc.

I am a HUGE fan of high rep RDL's (yes high) with a shrug on the non DL day, the weight should be low enough to hit sets of 12 to 15....(yup 15)...hope this makes sense.also, Zercher squats....are, in the parlance of our time,...."teh awsome" for deadlifts and life generally...

Frank Needham
08-21-2008, 10:18 AM
Ha, What should I do to avoid being fried by doing heavy deads? (The question you answered).

I like your writeup and am going to implement it. It seems to have all bases covered for recovery and gains. I like it.

Dave Van Skike
08-21-2008, 10:23 AM
glad to be of use.

Gant Grimes
08-22-2008, 07:28 AM
Dave, good writeup and good link.

Frank, being fried by heavy DLs is a right of passage that you should welcome. If a guy tells me he got his ass kicked from DLs, I'll give him the knowing nod and recognize him as good people. However, if a man came up and complained how he got a crazy awesome pump from leg extension and leg curl supersets, I'd throw my coffee in his face. And I don't even drink coffee (but I would start drinking it just so I could throw it in his face).

Frank Needham
08-22-2008, 08:14 AM
lol, I got you loud and clear...last time I did deads, Wednesday, I came home and ate then passed out and slept for 8-9 hours? I was still tired the next day! They're going up though. 1RM is now about 310 and I had a bit more in the tank....looking forward to 2xBW and the carry-over deads will bring into other areas.

Gant Grimes
08-22-2008, 08:21 AM
I did a little field research to answer this question. Most of this has been covered. This is 100% accurate (there are very few times I can say that).

* Knees are bent, hips are high, and back is flat. Hips and knees are still throughout the exercise.
* Grip is wide (roughly a clean grip).
* The bar is away from the body and does not move up the shins (like a deadlift).
* Deload at the bottom (this isn't a CF workout). Re-gripping is not necessary.
* Starting position for the back is neutral to slightly rounded.
* Back and arms move the bar off the floor at once. There is no jerking with the back to create momentum.
* The target is right under the sternum (around the xiphoid process). When the weight gets heavy, the abdomen is a more realistic target.
* This is a fast movement.
* Look up and straight ahead as the bar moves up.
* Final position is fixed hip and knees and lumbar extension. Elbows are high and eyes and head are forward.

Oh yeah, Pendlay Rows are not a variation on the row. They are merely Pendlay's impression of how to do a proper row, as explained to his lifters. The guy in the picture really emphasized this.

Here is Glenn Pendlay demonstrating the correct start and finish positions.

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k216/gantgrimes/IMG_0240.jpg

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k216/gantgrimes/IMG_0242.jpg

Derek Simonds
08-22-2008, 09:03 AM
Very nice Dave and Gant.

Allen Yeh
08-22-2008, 09:12 AM
Nice tutorial.

Dave can you cut and paste your DL post into it's own thread? I think that is some great info, ok well you always have great DL info but it's more info.

Allen Yeh
08-22-2008, 03:10 PM
Thanks to Glenn for the info.

Allen Yeh
09-10-2008, 05:38 AM
I got 200 x 5 today and it felt heavy. I can't imagine going up to the weights that Dave is talking about.

Dave Van Skike
09-10-2008, 09:42 AM
I got 200 x 5 today and it felt heavy. I can't imagine going up to the weights that Dave is talking about.

FWIW, once I embraced the pendlay approach and allowed a little momentum in the last 4-5 inches of pull to the chest I went from 225x5 to 250x5 in about three weeks. carryover to pullups has been awesome. I have gone from hard fought wiggly sets of 5 on pullups on a bar to towel pullups from a deadhang for sets 10...for someone around 100k this feels like good progress.