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View Full Version : Gaining without Milk! Need advice!


ryan mac
08-25-2008, 08:31 AM
Milk is OUT! I had a completely debilitating allergy attack on Saturday morning. Looking to stream line the calories needed to meet my goals. I can provide as much detail as needed. I need to know the exact amount of daily calories needed, and the macro nutrient break down to be successful on this cycle.

Vitals:
6'2"
190lbs
36 years old

According to Fit Day:
BMI + daily activity level = 3,209 kcals
Lifting days will add another 500 to 900 kcals burned
Total = 3,700 to 4,100 kcals.

How much of a surplus do I need on calories to grow? Would it be acceptable/advisable to eat more calories ONLY on lifting days? Is it a bad idea for the macro nutrient break down to be 50% or more fat? Is there any reason to be consuming more than 200grams of protein per day, and would less on non lifting days be acceptable?

Looking for answers. I have already seen improvements. I want them to continue....but loosing the milk makes it more complicated. Thoughts?

Thanks,

Ryan

Derek Weaver
08-25-2008, 03:20 PM
Eat more, all the time. Fat is good, carbs are okay, protein is obviously crucial and you'd be served well to shoot for at least 1 gram/total pound of bodyweight (most end up coming a bit short of this... thus, always shoot higher).

I'm not reminded of my favorite sig line (I believe it was Dave Van Skike's sig if I remember correctly, I'm weird like that)... perhaps not a direct quote but something like: Squat/Press/Pull, Eat, Rest, Repeat... that is all. (was it close?)

Timothy Holmes
08-25-2008, 03:39 PM
Why did you think milk was mandatory? It helps because it's an easily consumed source of calories, but there are other ways if you can't get enough with whole foods.

On how much you need to eat: as much a you can. If you aren't feeling uncomfortable, you aren't taking in enough (I think Robb Wolf said that). After 2 weeks of this, you can assess what's going on. Depending on your goals, more lean mass gain and a little fat is better than a little pure lean mass gain.

On the fat ratio: there is no problem with 50% or more. Just make sure to take 1-2 days off the fat, so it contributes to mass gain rather than being released as heat. Rest days would be a good opportunity to do this.

On the protein: the ratio of macronutrients isn't really important, and the amount of protein is debatable, but generally 1.5-2.5g/lb BW is recommended.

These are guidelines. Ultimately, it's what works for you. So be sure to record everything.

Dave Van Skike
08-25-2008, 04:24 PM
Eat more, all the time. Fat is good, carbs are okay, protein is obviously crucial and you'd be served well to shoot for at least 1 gram/total pound of bodyweight (most end up coming a bit short of this... thus, always shoot higher).

I'm not reminded of my favorite sig line (I believe it was Dave Van Skike's sig if I remember correctly, I'm weird like that)... perhaps not a direct quote but something like: Squat/Press/Pull, Eat, Rest, Repeat... that is all. (was it close?)


hey..did my fifteen minutes already start? I was hoping to be better looking once I got famous....


milk is awesome but some people don't drink it..or they stink when they do or look like crap when the do....this is not fair.

I once saw a muscular vegan? I know weird huh? I think he eats a lot of nuts. The last time I looked nuts had a lot of good stuff in them.

Derek Weaver
08-25-2008, 05:02 PM
Whoops, that should say I AM, (instead of not) reminded....

Yes Dave, your 15 minutes of fame have officially started.

I just remembered that I saw Lyle respond to someone noting that a UD 2.0 approach to bulking could result in a "clean" bulk (minimal to no fat gain) or some other cyclical approach. It should be noted that I don't know much if anything about UD 2.0, but what I do know... is that everyone else that I've seen has used it to get from lean, to really freaking lean.

Perhaps NHE, AD or something else could be a source to check out.

Still comes down to eating way more... lifting heavy... resting a lot.

Just thought I'd throw out the idea of a "clean bulk"... I think I've seen that thrown around here in the past.

Arien Malec
08-25-2008, 05:12 PM
I just remembered that I saw Lyle respond to someone noting that a UD 2.0 approach to bulking could result in a "clean" bulk (minimal to no fat gain) or some other cyclical approach.

The UD 2.0 approach for bulking (and Lyle is very minimal on the details) would look very similar the Anabolic Diet: high fat, very low carb consumption with adequate protein, and a low fat, high carb glycogen refeed once weekly.

Derek Weaver
08-25-2008, 05:45 PM
Nice, I kind of thought that's what it would look like. Lyle is very minimal on details of such a strategy. Not sure if it's because he has plans for a book on the subject, or if he just doesn't want the program getting f'd up by people that don't really get it. Or maybe it's both.

ryan mac
08-25-2008, 06:03 PM
Thanks for the responses. Sounds like it's impossible for me to eat to much.

I'll keep track of my intake and results.

Mike ODonnell
08-25-2008, 08:50 PM
Fat is your friend.....eat tons of it.

Protein may need to be higher...some grow at 1g/lb lean mass....others 1.5g/ls....I think a higher fat diet (esp with plenty of fats from butter, meat and eggs) may require less protein.

If you need to add in shakes....to get the calories in, then do so. Just drink them WITH meals....not to replace them. Things like protein+coconut oil+almond butter can be a tasty high calorie meal. But eat real food too!

Allen Yeh
08-26-2008, 04:39 AM
Coconut milk can be your friend during this time.

Paul McKirdy
08-31-2008, 10:50 AM
Hail coconut oil :D, I eat mine on ice cream.

And every time I see a squirrel make a vertical leap that appears to be four times or more its length, I know that having more nuts in my diet is nothing but a good thing.

Blair Lowe
09-04-2008, 03:41 AM
I have been asked by my friend to help him as he wants to bulk up. He's 5'7 or 8 and 133 pounds or so. Vietnamese and can't drink milk. Tried to drink nonfat organic since our friend's philipino gf said that is easier for her, but apparently a no go either. He has not tried lactose-free yet or lactase caps.

My friend and I reccomended SS for him since it is simple and he is a noob to lifting. He'll probably join a gym to get access to weights since he lives at home and I don't think buying a cage and weights is an option. Hell, I don't even know what his diet is. He's pretty skinny and I would guess doesn't eat too much all in all unless it's a saturday night.

Would it be possible for him to calculate on the zone at a target weight, up the fat blocks and gain on this if the milk option doesn't work?

It doesn't seem he is opposed to drinking milk but just has problems with it. Looks like lactase caps could get expensive, but I'm not sure how much lactose-free milk costs. It looks like lactose free milk is available in all types.

I'm pretty sure even though he lives at home he is on a limited budget based on what I know his bills and hours are. Not sure if his parents would help him in his endeavor or not since if he went no milk gain route, it would mean lots of eating.

I, myself am not familiar with mass gain. Once upon a time before gymnastics I had dreams of under 200, but didn't eat for it properly in restrospect.

I did find this thread, besides some googling and searching at the CF board and SM. Don't know what T-nation has and I'm not familiar with BB forums at all.

Allen Yeh
09-04-2008, 03:57 AM
If he is looking at gaining I don't know I would even bother with Zone at all. It sounds like he doesn't even do the basics of nutrition and the milk part isn't necessary it just helps a lot.

I mean he needs to start eating at least a base amount of calories before even considering the milk option anyway. The milk thing is in addition to everything else. I'd first get him eating just MORE and then worry about adding more calories. SS is great and if he is a noob he'll make great progress with it doing exactly as it's laid out.

Protein - At least 1 BW in grams
Carbs - At least 1.5 BW in grams - I'm guessing he doesn't have a problem with carbs since you didn't mention it.
Fat - At least with 1/2 BW in grams

That adds up to (2.5 * 133 *4) + (66 * 9) = ~2000 calories Then work up more fat with stuff like coconut milk, nut butters....etc

ryan mac
09-04-2008, 01:12 PM
Coconut milk can be your friend during this time.

What kind do you prefer?

Thanks.

Allen Yeh
09-04-2008, 01:22 PM
You can get it from Asian groceries or I often pick it up at Trader Joes. Whatever is convenient.

Mike ODonnell
09-04-2008, 06:28 PM
I have been asked by my friend to help him as he wants to bulk up. He's 5'7 or 8 and 133 pounds or so.

Hell, I don't even know what his diet is. He's pretty skinny and I would guess doesn't eat too much all in all unless it's a saturday night.

There is no such thing as a hardgainer....just someone not eating enough. He only needs to lift a couple times a week...but he HAS to focus on eating more...otherwise he won't gain anything no matter how often he works out. The Zone shouldn't even be a concern....it should be a free forall with protein/fat on non-workout days....and protein/carbs on workout days.

This may also help: http://www.theiflife.com/2008/08/26/the-michael-phelps-diet-and-gaining-muscle/

Blair Lowe
09-05-2008, 09:31 PM
Awesome. Teaching him the basic lifts will be the easy part. Since I only vaguely can guess at the diet, I'm sure that will be the hard part. Actually I'm sure that is the hardest part of gaining/cutting, etc.