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Daniel Olmstead
09-10-2008, 10:37 AM
Cross-posted at the CF boards.

Inspired by folks like Gant Grimes and Melissa Byers, I thought I'd tell you folks about my current experiment with Intermittent Fasting, and how it's going.

Goals & Plan
I'm coming off a bulking cycle where I gained about 13 pounds, most of which was fat. I was not happy with this cycle. As a tall skinny guy, I do not gain weight easily - those pounds were a battle. I told myself I'd turn around when my waist hit 34", as I don't like the pudgy feeling I get above that, and as a rock-climber I REALLY dislike hauling any unnecessary weight up the wall. It makes a huge difference.

So the goal: get back down to a 32" waist ASAP, so I can turn around and try the muscle thing again, hopefully more efficiently next time. Not sure what this amounts to in pounds, but I'd guess 10 or so.

The plan: Fast for 16 hours, 5 times a week. 8pm to noon the next day. Shoot for under 2500 kcal/day, eating more than 160g/protein a day (1g per pound LBM), but not more than 150g carbs (100g would be ideal). Make up the difference with fat. On fasting mornings, do a HIIT-style workout (usually burpees in sprint sets) followed by 30 minutes or so of easy cardio. This is in addition to regular CF WODs in the evenings 2-3 times a week, as well as climbing and some compound heavy lifting (ie, deadlifts/squats) to try and maintain muscle.

Week 1 results
Calories: 2,340
Fat: 131g (50%)
Carbs: 100g + 28g fiber (20%)
Protein: 175g (30%)

Weight: 183 (-5 lbs)
Waist: 33.25 (-0.75")
Bodyfat: 13.5% (-1.5%)
Percentage to goal: 38%

Thoughts and Observations

Really happy with the results so far.
Midway through the week, I noticed my weight had plummeted almost 9 pounds. I'm guessing this was water weight loss brought on by the shock of the lower carbs + IF. For the next few days, I was endlessly thirsty and drank copious amounts of water, and the weight went back up to a more reasonable level. I'm still more thirsty than usual, I'd say, so it's probably still correcting itself.
The fasting itself isn't particularly difficult. The hardest part has been trying to get accustomed to black coffee in the mornings.
On a few days I had to supplement my dinner with a protein shake in order to meet that day's protein requirements. I don't like to do this if I can avoid it.
As for energy, I wouldn't say it's "through the roof" but it's sufficient for the morning workouts. I never suffered lightheadedness during a workout, although I did feel a little nauseated rowing on Monday morning (Monday was rough - probably took on too much for the end of the workout week).
So I'm not exactly sure whether it was lipidolysis energy release or just plain ol' endorphins, but I noticed an elevation of my mood and a "second wind" about 5 minutes after the burpees one morning, doing some easy jogging on the treadmill. I kept an inner eye open for these types of mood swings, and noticed another one after about 15 minutes (the treadmill is deadly boring, so introspection of this type is not difficult). There were a couple minor ones every five minutes or so after that, but nothing as dramatic as the first two. It was an interesting feeling of minor elation and personal satisfaction, as well as strength. I wonder if that was the result of my body releasing energy to my muscles from the fat stores? At any rate, apart from the tedium of the treadmill, it felt good.
It is currently my intention to try and continue to IF when I turn this around to attempt weight gain. I figure I'll need to add about 1,000 calories and another 40-50g protein daily. Still not totally sure how I'll do this.
I hit PR's in both push-press and deadlifts last week, one of which (push-presses) was while in a fasted state.

Daniel Olmstead
09-17-2008, 11:13 AM
Week 2 sees far less dramatic effects than week 1 (to be expected), but still good news:

What went in (avg. daily):
Calories: 2,289
Fat: 127g (49%)
Carbs: 89g + 21g fiber (18%)
Protein: 167g (30%)

Results:
Weight: 181 (-2 lbs, 7lbs total)
Waist: 33 (-0.25", 1" total)
Bodyfat: 13% (-0.5%, 2% total)
Percentage to goal: 50%

Before last week, a quarter-inch off the waist was the most I'd lost in a week, so that was what I projected out. If I can maintain that pace, then I should be at goal in four more weeks.

This week saw more variation than the strict regimen of the first week. My fasts went from 16-20 hours, and I had my first cheat meal (dinner at a fancy restaurant - though I did skip dessert). On average, however, the numbers are very similar to last week.

I continue to feel good on this regimen - even better, in fact. I got a +37 point PR on Fight Gone Bad this weekend while fasted, and in general am feeling lean again (it's amazing how much difference an inch or two on the waist makes). My muscle recovery also feels faster - I generally only feel sore one day after a workout, and didn't feel much soreness at all from FGB.

Patrick Donnelly
09-17-2008, 01:17 PM
as a rock-climber I REALLY dislike hauling any unnecessary weight up the wall. It makes a huge difference.
Another good thing for climbers is that if you're climbing prior to breaking your fast, you've got less food in your gut to carry up.

Interesting posts, nice detail. Keep us updated.

Daniel Olmstead
09-24-2008, 09:14 AM
Thanks Patrick.

Intermittent Fasting: Week 3
Interesting developments this week:

What went in (avg. daily):
Calories: 2,386
Fat: 133g (49%)
Carbs: 111g + 24g fiber (21%)
Protein: 175g (30%)

Results:
Weight: 181 (-0 lbs, 7lbs total)
Waist: 32.75 (-0.25", 1.25" total)
Bodyfat: 12.5% (-0.5%, 2.5% total)
Percentage to goal: 63%

Didn't lose any weight this week, which is fine as long as my waist keeps going down. In fact, I'm a bit puzzled at how I could stay the same weight and lose another quarter inch. Could be just flux within the measurements, could be I'm somehow managing to gain a little muscle along with losing fat, which would be something of a holy grail if true. All other body measurements are essentially the same.

So, the bad news: first, I fell off the carb wagon a little bit. Had both pasta and cheesecake at a friend's birthday party, and >100g a couple other days. Not the end of the world, but off goal a little bit. Second, I sprained my ankle while climbing on Monday, which will have an effect on my workouts for the near future. It'll force me to miss two or three HIIT sessions (I'm going to try one-legged rowing tonight), and it has forced me to drop my daily burpees (not sure if that's good or bad news, actually). Without the HIIT, I would expect the rate of fat loss to diminish, so I may not get my .25" off this week. I may try and lower calories and prolong fasts a little to compensate.

But there is a bright side: I noticed a bit of ab definition reappearing in the mirror this week, which was a pleasant surprise. Still very slight, but I didn't expect to see ANY until 32.25" (the last time I saw it), so not sure what's happening there.

As far as the IF goes, it has become quite easy and habitual. Probably TOO habitual, as my fasting is following a predictable pattern based on my schedule, so I should probably be mixing it up more. It is difficult not to fast when the opportunity arises, as fasting days are easier than non-fasting ones.

George Mounce
09-25-2008, 06:47 PM
Very interesting, looking forward to more. Have you stuck with the 16 hour fast consistently or have you changed it up any in the 3 weeks?

Daniel Olmstead
09-26-2008, 01:51 PM
It's usually 16 hours, but I sometimes push it to 17, 18, even as high as 21 once.

Tonight we're going to a party to watch the debates, where there will be pizza & cookies and all sorts of bad junk, so my intention is to get in all my calories beforehand and start my fast early. Tomorrow is FGB3 at my local affiliate, and I probably won't eat before 1 or 2. So that'll be ~20 hours with a Fight Gone Bad at the end of it...I'll be curious to see how that goes.

Daniel Olmstead
09-27-2008, 06:01 PM
Just a quick update - 21 hour fast and knocked out a 14-point PR in Fight Gone Bad this morning (while fasted). Never felt bonked (well, no more than usual for a FGB, anyway).

Craig Brown
09-27-2008, 07:59 PM
Very cool on the FGB!

Daniel Olmstead
10-01-2008, 09:45 AM
Week 4:

What went in (avg. daily):
Calories: 2,340
Fat: 143g (53%)
Carbs: 86g + 23g fiber (17%)
Protein: 167g (29%)

Fasting days: 5/7 (avg. length: 17.6 hours)

Results:
Weight: 178 (-3 lbs, 10lbs total)
Waist: 32.5 (-0.25", 1.5" total)
Bodyfat: 12% (-0.5%, 3% total)
Percentage to goal: 75%

Thoughts:
Despite some changes in my routine this week, there's not a lot of change in the behavior of the numbers. I sprained my ankle early last week, which prevented me from doing my HIIT workouts on three days, and prevented me from doing ANY running. In an attempt to compensate, I added another fast day and tried to make my fasts a little longer. We got a fancy new scale to replace ol' unreliable, so although it says I lost three pounds in my results, I think I really only lost one, maybe two - the discrepancy is due to changing scales. All other measurements are within normal deviations - although it's notable that my arms appear to have grown a little.

We're now heading into stubborn fat territory - ie, trying to lose fat deposits I've had since...well, forever. The HIIT should become all the more critical for persuading these guys to let go, and I will probably not be able to maintain the 0.25"/week rate of waist-loss.

It was a difficult week for the diet. My interest in food has greatly diminished, and I get full fast (particularly with very large meals breaking my fast). Several times I've had to cram down food on a full stomach at the end of my eating window in order to meet my protein requirements. It is not comfortable, much less enjoyable. I'm torn about what, if anything, to do about this - part of me thinks that a couple days a week of steep caloric deficit (ie, <2k) might help with the last push for fat loss, the other part is worried about muscle and performance loss if my protein numbers go too low. I've ordered a pure, unflavored and unsweetened whey/casein mix from True Protein to hopefully give me an option to boost protein numbers without the sugar/sucralose of traditional protein powders. Hopefully that will help.

Patrick Haskell
10-03-2008, 01:15 PM
It was a difficult week for the diet. My interest in food has greatly diminished, and I get full fast (particularly with very large meals breaking my fast). Several times I've had to cram down food on a full stomach at the end of my eating window in order to meet my protein requirements. It is not comfortable, much less enjoyable. I'm torn about what, if anything, to do about this - part of me thinks that a couple days a week of steep caloric deficit (ie, <2k) might help with the last push for fat loss, the other part is worried about muscle and performance loss if my protein numbers go too low.

Daniel, I can't speak to the IF aspect of this, as I have had difficulty getting onto a suitable regimen, given my schedule. However, I would suggest that you probably did fine this week. When your fundamental diet is good, you should trust your appetite. Hunger is only loosely a response to an empty gut. It is primarily a hormonal response to caloric needs. If you sprained your ankle this week and haven't been able to do HIIT or run in the way you are accustomed, your body probably simply doesn't need as many calories. Don't change your fasting regime to compensate. Just let your body's natural functions guide you as to how much you need to eat. You just need to worry about the quality of what you eat and the balance of macronutrients, which look fine from your post. You are making fine progress. If your performance starts to slip or you become unhappy with your body composition over time, consider changing something. Otherwise, relax and enjoy the fact that you seem to have found something that is working for you. Good luck.

Daniel Olmstead
10-08-2008, 09:52 AM
So I tried an experiment this week: not stuffing myself. I still tracked what I ate, but if I wasn't going to hit my protein goal for the day, then I just let that go and didn't cram food into an already-full stomach to try and meet the goal. Therefore, my average daily calories and macros went down. Let's see what happened...

What went in (avg. daily):
Calories: 2,116
Fat: 125g (52%)
Carbs: 83g + 21g fiber (18%)
Protein: 151g (29%)

Fasting days: 5/7 (avg. length: 17.2 hours)

Results:
Weight: 176 (-2 lbs, 12lbs total)
Waist: 32.325 (-0.125", 1.625" total)
Bodyfat: 12% (-0%, 3% total)
Percentage to goal: 81%

Well, I knew that I was heading into stubborn fat territory, and things would slow down as I started chipping away at it. So my rate of .25"/week has cut in half. I don't really know if the diet change made a difference - it's so small when averaged out that I doubt it. My workouts have gotten rather inconsistent as well - I damaged my shoulder on Saturday, so between my ankle and my shoulder I'm nursing some annoying injuries, so I'm going to be spending more time doing rest and recovery for a little while until they heal. I don't know what this will do to the weight loss - Mike O'Donnell would probably tell me I'm working out too much as it is, so maybe backing off for a little will be beneficial all around.

Daniel Olmstead
10-15-2008, 10:14 AM
This week was pretty crazy food-wise. Not really sure why, just ate different sorts of things and had days that were WAY off goal, either over or under, in protein and carbs and calories. Still, on average it doesn't look much different from past weeks, which is good.

What went in (avg. daily):
Calories: 2,381
Fat: 140g (52%)
Carbs: 89g + 25g fiber (17%)
Protein: 178g (30%)

Fasting days: 4/7 (avg. length: 16.6 hours)

Results:
Weight: 175 (-1 lbs, 13lbs total)
Waist: 32.25 (-0.125", 1.75" total)
Bodyfat: 12% (-0%, 3% total)
Percentage to goal: 88%

Ab muscles are a little more visible now, but not yet enough that I would call it a six-pack. Funny that once I gave up on the vanity goal (the six-pack) and turned my focus to fitness goals, I'm finally starting to get one. Maybe a six-pack is like love: it only comes when you aren't looking for it.

My ankle is at about 85% and my shoulder is feeling pretty good, so I think the active recovery week worked. I might try running again today, to see how it feels.

I'm really starting to itch to turn this around again. I want to start 5x5's of weighted pullups and dips to help progress towards a muscle-up, which is my primary goal at this point. If I can keep this rate up without backsliding, I'll be at my goal in two weeks and I can start eating to support real muscle growth again - hopefully a slow LBM-only bulk, this time, so I can get off this rollercoaster.

Interesting observation: since I drastically lowered my carbs to focus on fat and protein, I've noticed that I'm NEVER cold. Indeed, I've taken to sleeping with the window open every night and my legs outside the covers just to keep from overheating in my sleep. Sweaters and sweatshirts frequently get uncomfortable. So for some reason my thermogenesis has really kicked up. A little googling turned up this gem on an extremely crappy and probably highly disreputable supplement site:

Among the nutritional activators, the various macronutrients have different effects on the thermogenic response. When you ingest food, your metabolic rate increases above the fasting level. In the case of protein, energy to process the protein, which is then used for tissue growth and repair. On the other hand, carbohydrates and fat function primarily as fuel and are used more efficiently as such by the body. Carbohydrates and fat therefore have a much lower thermogenic effect than protein.

So I would guess this is my body taking all that protein and converting it to glycogen, since I'm not giving it enough glucose, and the heat is a byproduct of that conversion. I don't know whether this means anything (good or bad), but it's interesting to note.

Derek Weaver
10-19-2008, 11:20 PM
Nice. Somehow I either missed this or didn't pay attention to it. Either way, i am regretfully late to the party.

Nice thread, nice progress. Keep up the posts and good work.

George Mounce
10-20-2008, 05:26 AM
This week was pretty crazy food-wise. Not really sure why, just ate different sorts of things and had days that were WAY off goal, either over or under, in protein and carbs and calories. Still, on average it doesn't look much different from past weeks, which is good.

What went in (avg. daily):
Calories: 2,381
Fat: 140g (52%)
Carbs: 89g + 25g fiber (17%)
Protein: 178g (30%)

Fasting days: 4/7 (avg. length: 16.6 hours)

Results:
Weight: 175 (-1 lbs, 13lbs total)
Waist: 32.25 (-0.125", 1.75" total)
Bodyfat: 12% (-0%, 3% total)
Percentage to goal: 88%

Ab muscles are a little more visible now, but not yet enough that I would call it a six-pack. Funny that once I gave up on the vanity goal (the six-pack) and turned my focus to fitness goals, I'm finally starting to get one. Maybe a six-pack is like love: it only comes when you aren't looking for it.

My ankle is at about 85% and my shoulder is feeling pretty good, so I think the active recovery week worked. I might try running again today, to see how it feels.

I'm really starting to itch to turn this around again. I want to start 5x5's of weighted pullups and dips to help progress towards a muscle-up, which is my primary goal at this point. If I can keep this rate up without backsliding, I'll be at my goal in two weeks and I can start eating to support real muscle growth again - hopefully a slow LBM-only bulk, this time, so I can get off this rollercoaster.

Interesting observation: since I drastically lowered my carbs to focus on fat and protein, I've noticed that I'm NEVER cold. Indeed, I've taken to sleeping with the window open every night and my legs outside the covers just to keep from overheating in my sleep. Sweaters and sweatshirts frequently get uncomfortable. So for some reason my thermogenesis has really kicked up. A little googling turned up this gem on an extremely crappy and probably highly disreputable supplement site:



So I would guess this is my body taking all that protein and converting it to glycogen, since I'm not giving it enough glucose, and the heat is a byproduct of that conversion. I don't know whether this means anything (good or bad), but it's interesting to note.

Going to hit a few based on my personal experience.

Abs - made in kitchen. I agree, who cares, but the more you train the more they come. When it comes down to it though, people who worry about them tend to have a vanity issue, so continue not caring.

A muscle-up, at least kipped is about more about technique, and less about strength. The transition is what gets most people. I haven't done even close to the volume of dips and push-ups I used to do and can still chain 6-7 muscle-ups together solely on technique.

It will come to a point when you eat a meal, that protein will make you feel warm all over consistently within minutes of downing it. I gave up on heavy covers quite some time ago, and its 40 at night here.

Patrick Yeung
10-21-2008, 09:52 AM
Awesome work man. Looks like youre just meltin fat away.

Im just startin, but seein similar results for the first week. But, I have to ask though, your calorie split seems very favorable, kind of what im aimin for, but I dont know where I am at.

What are you using to keep track of your calories? Id love to see what youre eatin. Been havin alot of trouble gettin enough protein at the end of the night.

And ive noticed the temp increase as well. I was at the beach yesterday, in overcast swimmin in the pacific. It started gettin dark, and we were headin out when we realized we hadnt even brought towels... I didnt even shiver on the whole walk back soaking wet when everyone else was shatterin teeth. Kinda cool. Probably helps melt the fat away too.

Daniel Olmstead
10-21-2008, 10:44 AM
Thanks Derek, George & Patrick. I like keeping the logs in a public place - helps keep me honest.

Patrick, I use Fitday to track my foods. I use the downloadable software, which costs a small amount, but they have a free version at their website (http://www.fitday.com). Calorie King and Daily Plate are other website options - check 'em out and go with the one that appeals to you. It's definitely a huge help to track.

As for what I eat...well, I'm a vegetarian, so it's pretty safe to say you wouldn't have any interest in following my plan. It involves large daily quantities of eggs and cottage cheese, as well as different permutations of the dreaded soy bean.

Patrick Yeung
10-21-2008, 11:52 AM
That makes it even better! I was vegeterian prior to lifting, eating pretty much all raw. I got most of my calories from fruit (oranges and apples mostly) with vegetables at dinner with some sort of protein. Of course, I was also doing distance running.

With what ive read about soy, and soy products (things like decreased HGH levels, increases in estrogen, and drops in sperm count, well, dont really care about that, but shows it does affect males), ive stopped having them, so I needed to get more protein with less carbs.

I eat alot of cottage cheese, and usually at least 4 eggs, usually 6.

But how do you get 100grams of protein, without soy, or minimal amounts. Many of the studies show those affects with just one or two servings a day.

How are you gettin so much fat on a vegeterian diet though?

Oh, and where did you say that you kept your food log? I am especially intersted now how youre gettin your protein and fat.

Daniel Olmstead
10-21-2008, 12:35 PM
My log is on my computer and not in a share-able format, unfortunately, but here's a rundown of the foods I eat a lot of.

Protein:

Full-fat cottage cheese - at least a cup a day
Eggs - typically 6 daily
Milk - no more than a pint/day, due to carbs
Tofu - I do eat it, typically for one meal a day. I use organic and non-GMO, and I've read all the literature on it and think the risks are overhyped (http://www.t-nation.com/article/most_recent/soy_whats_the_big_deal). I will also eat tempeh and wheat gluten, from time to time.
Protein powder - I use a pure, unflavored and unsweetened blend of whey/casein from true protein (http://www.trueprotein.com), which I use for my homemade protein bars (http://onrockrockon.blogspot.com/2008/10/eureka-home-made-protein-bars.html).


Fat:
Fat is not difficult. I love cheese, nuts/nut butters and olive oil, and that right there takes care of a lot. I also usually make a curry once a week with coconut milk.

Carbs:
My carbs come from primarily veggies, milk and tofu. I do not eat any packaged foods, and the only sweetener I use is stevia, and that fairly infrequently.

I've posted a handful of my frequently-used recipes on my blog (http://onrockrockon.blogspot.com/search/label/Recipes), if you're curious. Props to George for the cauliflower-crust pizza - that one's awesome.

Patrick Yeung
10-21-2008, 03:48 PM
WHAT! cauliflower-crust pizza?! That sounds awesome.

Ill definetly be checkin out your blog for other stuff. Your diet seems like what mine would be. Its all the same stuff I was eating before, but I bet its just higher quantities.

All the carbs associated with milk and tofu are another turn off, but they are such good sources.

Ill have to start puttin myself back on a similar diet. I always felt better off meat than on it. Props to you for being able to stick to it and make it work.

Thanks for the help.

Oh, and coconut curry is awesome, especially of the super spicy red curry sorts.

Daniel Olmstead
10-22-2008, 10:05 AM
So close...

What went in (avg. daily):
Calories: 2,231
Fat: 140g (55%)
Carbs: 76g + 21g fiber (16%)
Protein: 150g (27%)

I lost track of my fasts this week.

Results:
Weight: 174 (-1 lbs, 14lbs total)
Waist: 32.125 (-0.125", 1.875" total)
Bodyfat: 11.5% (-0.5%, 3.5% total)
Percentage to goal: 94%

Fell off the wagon a little bit this week, protein-wise. In fact, in general I didn't eat enough this week - I think I had three sub-2k calorie days. I want to be careful not to slip into a regular deficit here, so a binge day or two is probably called for. This close to goal, though, the temptation is definitely high to eat less, thinking it will help shave off those last few fractions of an inch.

I've been thinking more and more about what to do when I hit my goal, which (fingers crossed) should be next week. I want to refocus on gaining LBM, but not with a traditional bulk. I admit that after several weeks of having a definite plan, and having that plan WORK, I'm anxious about going back to the wilderness of dietary uncertainty that is effective LBM gain. I think I might try freestyle for a little while - eating a LOT on rest days after hard effort, but continuing to IF and eating less on other days, maybe keeping one or two morning HIIT sessions per week to focus on fat-burning a couple times a week. Maybe try to get my overall daily average up to the 2800-3k range, but in a very spiky, rather than steady, fashion.

I'm also thinking of bringing more carbs back into the picture, post-workout. Mr. O'Donnell suggests this sort of carb-cycling to more quickly replenish muscle glycogen, but I am not yet clear on just how many carbs is a good target for a post-workout meal. 100g? Are a couple glasses of milk sufficient, or should it be low-GI carbs in food? I will have to do more research.

Patrick Yeung
10-28-2008, 08:33 AM
Im not gonna try and weight in on this as I do not eat post workout, or when I do, its just my first meal of the day of whatever that may be.

But, I made your protein bars/cookies more the way I was makin em, and they are freakin good. I didnt really measure, but I was usin cashew butter instead, and just left over protein powder.

I used to make a homemade Gu out of dates/figs and various other ingredients. Ill work on playing around with a recipie for PWO. My past training always had me eating alot of fruit after a workout with some cottage cheese or cheese for a little fat and protein, but not sure how id feel on a high fat/high protein pwo snack.

Oh, and I think thats funny that you eat alot of rest days, the days youre not burnin as much as your workout days. I find myself doing that too, I wonder why that is. I wonder if its because our bodies are craving calories, and our mind drives us to eat less and fast on workout days to have better workouts?

Sam Brothers
10-28-2008, 09:01 AM
I'm still not sure/convinced why you need to eat so much protein. From all I've ever understood about nutrition your body isn't can't use that much. It's working your kidneys unnecessarily. I've noticed I grow at a steady rate with under 75g protein/day (150lbs). I'm open to understanding if I'm wrong so any info contrary please link!

Daniel Olmstead
10-28-2008, 09:24 AM
Well, if I didn't have the protein, it'd just be fat, and I don't think I could live off of just fat. Plus, at the low rate of carbohydrate ingestion I'm at, I'm not giving my body enough carbohydrates to refill liver and muscle glycogen via glucose, so it has to convert the protein via gluconeogenesis. As for the amount - when I was eating in more zone-like proportions, I found I simply did not gain weight without ~200g/day protein. It wouldn't happen. Now, I don't know if that will be different under my current macronutrient profile, we shall see.

Although I'm not really planning on keeping my current macronutrient profile. I'm thinking of adding an additional 100g of carbohydrates PWO to speed muscle recovery, to see what that's like. I wouldn't have the extra carbs on rest days.

I've recently tried Kefir and really like it, so I'm planning on learning how to brew my own so I can have a big kefir/fruit smoothie after workouts. Toying with the notion of QOKAD.

Patrick Yeung
10-28-2008, 10:18 AM
Yeah, yogurt would be good for a pwo id imagine. I used to make smoothies with it. Freeze cubes of yogurt, then throw em in a blender with frozen bannana and other fruits, then add milk to your consistency. You get it smooth and thick like a milk shake. I wonder if coconut milk would work, itd be way creamier and much higher in fat.

I used to think like you as well Sam. I have a question for ya though.

What are your goals, and are you trying to put on weight or maintain?

I was 135, but doing triathlons not too long ago, and was eating around 75-85g of protein a day and was doin fine. But now im starting to lift, and it wouldnt cut it at all. Im eating id say around 100-150g a day, and im at 155lbs now.

I can send you plenty of links that show you dont need more than .5g/lb, and other showing .7g, 1g or even more. It really depends on your profile and goals. But im working right now...

Daniel Olmstead
10-29-2008, 10:24 AM
Backsliding, for the first time in two months.

What went in (avg. daily):
Calories: 2,218
Fat: 126g (50%)
Carbs: 82g + 27g fiber (18%)
Protein: 170g (31%)

Results:
Weight: 175 (+1 lbs, 13lbs total)
Waist: 32.25 (+0.125", 1.75" total)
Bodyfat: 12% (+0.5%, 3% total)
Percentage to goal: 88%

My intake profile is essentially the same as it's been for the last few weeks, so I don't think that's it. I think it's likely the exercise: we did a very brutal burpee/pullup workout last Wednesday that basically thrashed me for the entire week - nearly every workout until Sunday felt like crap. In retrospect, I probably should have taken an extra rest day before jumping back in - instead I felt like I was scrambling to catch up all week.

This has been a difficult week for me, disciplinarily speaking, in a couple different ways. Fall has finally, definitively hit the Bay Area, and it is having a psychological effect. The lack of sun and colder weather is making it harder to generate enthusiasm for working out, and making diversions like video games more tempting. I'm also feeling hungrier, and burned-out on tracking in Fitday.

So part of me wants to just quit tracking for a while, freestyle the diet (adding more carbs in PWO), and start heavy 5x5 training again for strength and LBM gains. You know what it feels like? Hibernation. But another part of me is chafing at being so close to an unmet goal, so wants to keep working at this a little longer. I'm not really sure what to do at this point.

Thomas Bailly
10-30-2008, 10:56 PM
great thread , relevant observations,thanks.
I've been noting that this winter ( it has been between 10 deg F and 28F here for the last 3 weeks) my diet has gone to crap and I've been cold, I usually run cold but dropped to about 9% BF this summer/fall, however just one day of cleaning up the diet ( low carb, only Paleo, more protein and moderate fat) kept me a lot warmer.....unfortunately super long hours at work (outside) have dropped exercise from 5-6 days a week to 1!!!! so maybe that is more relevant in terms of muscle generated heat...
Anyway just wanted to add some not quite finished observations relating to some of your post, thanks again.

Daniel Olmstead
11-12-2008, 09:52 AM
GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAAAALLLLLLLL!!
Wow, this was unexpected.

What went in (average daily):
Don't know. Stopped tracking.

What came out:
Weight: 173 (-2 lbs, 15lbs total)
Waist: 32 (-0.25", 2" total)
Bodyfat: 11% (-1%, 4% total)
Percentage to goal: 100%

Time it took: 10 weeks

Burnt out on Fitday and feeling too OCD about what I ate and how it affected me, I decided to take some time off from tracking, until I felt like I'd enjoy it again. In the meantime, I continued to eat as I have been doing. I still habitually weigh in every Wednesday, though, (gotta keep the graph consistent!), and was really surprised with what I saw this morning - I haven't been feeling particularly thin or anything lately - indeed, just last night I had a bad dream that I was weak and pudgy again.

Nevertheless, there it is. I haven't been this thin since high school, and I've never been this fit before, period. I need new pants. I want to get back to focusing on strength gains, but for the time being I think I'm just going to enjoy where I am and how I'm doing for a while.

As I get more and more enamored of climbing, I get less interested in the big muscles. Climbing is far more about strength-to-weight ratio than it is about size, as the goal is more total muscle recruitment than it is mass - obviously, the less you weigh as compared to your strength, the easier time you'll have getting up the wall. So my goals are shifting from size to simple strength and efficiency. Jim (fellow CFEB athlete) is far stronger than I am, but not appreciably bigger. And he can climb 5.13-something. That, I think, is something to strive towards. It will mean forever being scrawny, but if it means climbing 5.12, then I'm OK with that.

Scott Hanson
11-12-2008, 05:01 PM
GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAAAALLLLLLLL!!
Wow, this was unexpected.
As I get more and more enamored of climbing, I get less interested in the big muscles. Climbing is far more about strength-to-weight ratio than it is about size, as the goal is more total muscle recruitment than it is mass - obviously, the less you weigh as compared to your strength, the easier time you'll have getting up the wall. So my goals are shifting from size to simple strength and efficiency. Jim (fellow CFEB athlete) is far stronger than I am, but not appreciably bigger. And he can climb 5.13-something. That, I think, is something to strive towards. It will mean forever being scrawny, but if it means climbing 5.12, then I'm OK with that.

Congratulations Daniel! Thanks for posting your progress.

Many sports benefit from a high strength to weight ratio, so I certainly wouldn't stress about less bulk. I've seen plenty of climbers who were lean, ripped, and strong. Maybe focus on the gymnastics instead of the weight-training?

Gittit Shwartz
11-13-2008, 12:24 AM
...
Oh, and I think thats funny that you eat alot of rest days, the days youre not burnin as much as your workout days. I find myself doing that too, I wonder why that is. I wonder if its because our bodies are craving calories, and our mind drives us to eat less and fast on workout days to have better workouts?

Congrats!
Thought i'd give my ideas on appetite on rest days:

1. If you work out late in the day, your muscles are still compensating and rebuilding themselves the next morning, so it makes sense you would be hungrier.

2. Exercise suppresses appetite for a short time at least, and you tend to forget or ignore hunger when you're busy and absorbed. So if you're not working out and not particularly engrossed in the day's work, you'll tend to eat more.

I found if I follow my appetite i tend to undereat on a day when I train late and overeat the next day. Depending on your goals it might not be such a bad thing. I'm not convinced a diet has to be painful to work :)

Patrick Yeung
11-14-2008, 03:56 PM
I hear ya. When I work out, I dont even really want to eat. I remember reading that, those who train regularly do not experience as drastic a drop in blood sugar as those who do not after a workout.

Might explain why im never hungry, but when I finally convince the girl to go for a quick run or jog, she eats everything..


Congrats Daniel.

I hope you can keep up the shape and just build on lean mass. Either way, im sure youre relieved.

Shows sometimes we need to just relax and chill. You knew you were doin all the right things, but not havin to be so anal about it may have helped ya. What sucks is, now you cant go back to see what may have changed....:D