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Sebastian Milla
09-13-2008, 09:01 AM
Hey guys, I'v been on the original mass gain program for about six weeks now and im just about to go into my third week of the strength mesocycle. Here's my question, I don't seem to be gaining all that much mass. I Started the program at 164 and now I m 166 but i feel that that is mostly fat. During my first hypertrophy mesocycle I was in Peru so pwo was a little iffy, as in no carb load after my workouts so i started doing 10 blocks of carbs 5 blocks of protein after my strength workouts. I am progressing steadily with the weight but I'm not seeing a lot of muscle mass. Am I just impatient or should I supplement? I'm 17 so I think I could handle it recovery wise seeing as I get at least eight hours of sleep a night. Thanks.

Steven Low
09-13-2008, 11:23 AM
What are your lift numbers? BF%? What are you eating specifically? Need more information on everything.

If you're a novice you should probably do Starting Strength...

Sebastian Milla
09-14-2008, 08:24 AM
definitely not a novice. already tried starting strength and progressed jack squat. been doing crossfit before starting this. starting strength seems to be more for complete newbs who have never entered a gym. before i picked up SS i'd been gymming for a year.

Let's see, these are my current numbers:

Squat: 135
C & J: 115
Front Squat: 125
Snatch: 80
Press:80

I don't know my deadlift or bench because I haven't checked them in a while, let's just say that they are 150 and 105 respectively.

My body fat must be around 12-15 % because i can still fit into my jeans. I am currently zone-paleo at 20 blocks 5X fat as prescribed by Robb's "Skinning the Zone" Article.

Steven Low
09-14-2008, 10:31 AM
Up the weight more aggressively (with good form if possible) and eat a bit more.

Make sure you're getting enough sleep + eliminate stress from your life.

That's what I can generally tell you for now I guess.

Sebastian Milla
09-14-2008, 03:46 PM
alright. up to 21 blocks? i feel like that will help going into the hypertrophy meso again. what about pwo? is 5 blocks pro 10 blocks cho overkill or undereating?

Arien Malec
09-14-2008, 08:56 PM
alright. up to 21 blocks? i feel like that will help going into the hypertrophy meso again. what about pwo? is 5 blocks pro 10 blocks cho overkill or undereating?

If you have any doubt, you are undereating. If you feel like eating has become a chore, like you eat until full, then eat again, and if you feel like you see the result of your eating every day in the toilet, you may be eating enough.

Most likely, if you have only gained 2 lbs in 3 weeks of mass gain, you aren't eating enough.

Gavin Harrison
09-15-2008, 08:46 AM
Hey guys, I'v been on the original mass gain program for about six weeks now and im just about to go into my third week of the strength mesocycle. Here's my question, I don't seem to be gaining all that much mass. I Started the program at 164 and now I m 166 but i feel that that is mostly fat. During my first hypertrophy mesocycle I was in Peru so pwo was a little iffy, as in no carb load after my workouts so i started doing 10 blocks of carbs 5 blocks of protein after my strength workouts. I am progressing steadily with the weight but I'm not seeing a lot of muscle mass. Am I just impatient or should I supplement? I'm 17 so I think I could handle it recovery wise seeing as I get at least eight hours of sleep a night. Thanks.


Squat: 135
C & J: 115
Front Squat: 125
Snatch: 80
Press:80


So, you honestly believe that as a 165-ish pound male squatting 135 lbs, that you're not a novice level lifter? I don't buy it. You're not doing something right, sleep, eating, drinking the GOMAD, something. Fix it and do SS again, with the milk.

Derek Weaver
09-15-2008, 09:02 AM
Didn't Rip say something to the effect that something like SS will work for everyone, just not for long.

"Gymming for a year" isn't exactly the qualification for not being a novice lifter.

Buy the book, eat more and do the program.

Ben Moskowitz
09-15-2008, 09:18 AM
If those are kg's he's probably not a novice.

Kevin Perry
09-15-2008, 01:31 PM
If those are kg's he's probably not a novice.

Good catch

Mike ODonnell
09-15-2008, 02:00 PM
Hey guys, I'v been on the original mass gain program for about six weeks now and im just about to go into my third week of the strength mesocycle. Here's my question, I don't seem to be gaining all that much mass. I Started the program at 164 and now I m 166 but i feel that that is mostly fat. During my first hypertrophy mesocycle I was in Peru so pwo was a little iffy, as in no carb load after my workouts so i started doing 10 blocks of carbs 5 blocks of protein after my strength workouts. I am progressing steadily with the weight but I'm not seeing a lot of muscle mass. Am I just impatient or should I supplement? I'm 17 so I think I could handle it recovery wise seeing as I get at least eight hours of sleep a night. Thanks.

Eat more protein on off days, like 1g/lb of BW at least. More fat on off days. Only lift 2-3x a week...if you can't gain on 2x a week, your workouts and eating are all wrong. Eat plenty of pwo carbs after workouts (whole food). I like 1 on/2-3 off for workouts and pwo loading. You can do cardio on off days and keep the carbs lower with the fats a bit higher. Workout days should be all about carbs/protein and lowered fat intake. If you want to gain, eat more.....and as a trainer buddy of mine says "The best thing for putting on muscle is to go buy yourself and XBox" (meaning you workout couple times a week and then just eat and rest)

You can also read this post about gaining muscle and how most people just don't eat enough....or run around way too much
http://www.theiflife.com/2008/08/26/the-michael-phelps-diet-and-gaining-muscle/

James Evans
09-16-2008, 08:35 AM
If those are kg's he's probably not a novice.

If those are kg's I'm not sure he needs mass gain:

I Started the program at 164 and now I m 166 but i feel that that is mostly fat.

Sebastian Milla
09-16-2008, 04:59 PM
in response to the speculation, no it was not in kgs. If that had been in kgs I wouldn't be here :p i was only saying i wasnt a novice because from an interview i read with rip he said that SS was for scrawny kids that had never set foot in a gym before. I DID buy the book, I really liked it and i gave it a good shot, but i just wasnt progressing at all on my squat, bench, or anything. right now i think ill just finish another two cycles of the PM gainer program and eat some more (I am at the point where my body seems to be handling 20 blocks like its cake). I've been reading around the boards and it sounds like mass gain is a straight up desacration of quality nutrition in general (a certain article about oreos...). However, if i end up staying at mutherloving 164 for another two months i will either kill something or try starting strength again.

i cant afford the milk tho

Steven Low
09-16-2008, 07:47 PM
You should probably do SS.

Just eat a lot of healthy stuff if you can't afford the milk (well, as much as you can). Some people have even told me that it's cheaper with the gallon because they bought less food overall...

Craig Loizides
09-16-2008, 09:03 PM
Here are Rippetoe's barbell strength standards. I think these are from Practical Programming. Your numbers put you mostly in the novice level.
http://www.crossfit.com/cf-journal/WLSTANDARDS.pdf

There's nothing wrong with the mass gain program but you should probably give SS another try at some point. I think a lot of people following SS start too close to their max and increase the weight too quickly (I know I did the first time I tried it). The important thing is to make small consistent gains for as long as possible.

And eat a lot and rest as much as possible.

Frank Needham
09-17-2008, 05:38 AM
i cant afford the milk tho

Nice responses from others here. Too bad the above is the case. Do you really want to get bigger? If so, find a way to buy the milk. It works. At 17 your metabolism is so high you could probably eat double what your eating now and still have a struggle gaining. Just for perspective I'll offer up that I weighed 155 at 5'10" in HS. At 21 I weighed 172. This was mostly due to having done squats and milk in HS (didn't even know what it was at that time).

James Evans
09-17-2008, 09:02 AM
Sebastian,

Be patient, these things come.

SS works and the beauty of it is in its simplicity. Just take it steady from day to day and don't get greedy with the weight increases. How much did you improve from your starting weights?

I have little interest in mass gain these days because I no longer compete in a sport that requires me to be hyooge, but I do believe that people who have got decent numbers in the weightroom look like they have decent numbers in the weightroom.

Do you still live with your folks? Are you eating them out of house and home? You could get a part time job. Milk isn't that expensive, certainly in comparison to some of the rubbish we can spend our money on these days.

Sebastian Milla
09-17-2008, 04:55 PM
right, so in response to everything I guess my issue with SS is that I felt I could do more. My squat, I can't tell you how bad it was, I'd just funk out after a couple sets and it just didnt FEEL right. I wasnt eating until I was "sick" but i felt very full and i was eating a lot, but i really think it all went to fat, straight. true, my food quality blew but it wasnt anything horrible either, whole grains, whey, as much milk as possible (two cups per meal), and meat, cheese, eggs, I really did go all out. By the end of the month I was up ten or fifteen pounds or so but I can guarantee you it was water weight and fat. I'm looking for the real deal, and it doesn't have to be aggressive either, right now it seems like my lifts are going up with PM so i'll either stick with that or jump to Mike O' Donnell's Hollywood Bod thread.

James Evans
09-18-2008, 05:23 AM
right, so in response to everything I guess my issue with SS is that I felt I could do more. My squat, I can't tell you how bad it was, I'd just funk out after a couple sets and it just didnt FEEL right.

and yet:

My squat, I can't tell you how bad it was, I'd just funk out after a couple sets and it just didnt FEEL right.

I don't follow? You felt like you could do more but the squats were fucking you over?

Sebastian Milla
09-18-2008, 07:50 AM
as in ancillary exercises to HELP the squat, like the front squat. I think that for some reason I hit a wall almost immediately with the bench and squat. the press was going pretty slow too, the only thing that went up really was the deadlift. I did pendalay rows instead of power cleans and if that was the deal breaker I stand corrected.

Steven Low
09-18-2008, 10:46 AM
What weight (or % of 1 RM) did you start at of your max for 3x5?

Start at something like 75-80% of your 5 RM and then increase by 5 lbs each workout. Same with the other lifts.

You're not supposed to start at 100% of your 5 RM and then keep on going... it won't work well.

Sebastian Milla
09-18-2008, 02:38 PM
What weight (or % of 1 RM) did you start at of your max for 3x5?

Start at something like 75-80% of your 5 RM and then increase by 5 lbs each workout. Same with the other lifts.

You're not supposed to start at 100% of your 5 RM and then keep on going... it won't work well.

see that right there would have been nice to know. :o

okay, so know I have three choices:

PM Mass Gain again eating more

SS the "right" way and eating my bodyweight

Hollywood bod by MOD and eating my bodyweight + IF

Any thoughts?????

Steven Low
09-18-2008, 07:07 PM
I actually think Rip discussed that in SS... you should be able to find it in the book you have.

Anyway, I vote SS.

Arien Malec
09-18-2008, 07:25 PM
see that right there would have been nice to know. :o

okay, so know I have three choices:

PM Mass Gain again eating more

SS the "right" way and eating my bodyweight

Hollywood bod by MOD and eating my bodyweight + IF

Any thoughts?????

I assume by eating your bodyweight, you mean in grams of protein, not in, say, pounds of milk.

Anyway, definitely go for SS the right way (GOMAD or other caloric equivalent of serious eating), and ride the linear progression for as long as you can. If only I were 17 and knew what I know now....

Gant Grimes
09-19-2008, 07:29 AM
There are 3 pages of people telling you to do SS, eat food, and you're still asking what you need to do.

You're a novice (I wish to hell I was). Do SS. Drink a lot of milk. Eat a lot of food. Start conservatively and go up every week. No assistance exercises. No cardio or metcon. No Pendlay Rows (if you did these, you didn't follow the program; this is Internet lore, not SS).

Stop "gymming" and start training.

Lift big. Eat big. Rest big. Be big.

Sebastian Milla
09-19-2008, 08:45 AM
alright, SS it is. by diet standards should I keep zoning or just fucitol? cuz im at 20 blocks which is pretty good, but if i bump it up to 25 or so and just pile milk on top it should work right? we're talking proetein from meat, veggies, and nuts/olive oil for diet.

and what is GOMAD???

Kevin Perry
09-19-2008, 09:19 AM
alright, SS it is. by diet standards should I keep zoning or just fucitol? cuz im at 20 blocks which is pretty good, but if i bump it up to 25 or so and just pile milk on top it should work right? we're talking proetein from meat, veggies, and nuts/olive oil for diet.

and what is GOMAD???

GOMAD = Gallon of milk a day assuming you can tolerate it.

Just eat tons of food and I mean tons of it and be sure you get plenty of protein in.

Gavin Harrison
09-19-2008, 10:20 PM
GOMAD = Gallon of milk a day assuming you can tolerate it.

And if you can't... (wfs) (http://www.digestiveadvantage.com/prod_adult_li.html)

Sebastian Milla
09-21-2008, 08:42 PM
Okay, started SS again, 80 percent to start. did a gallon of whole milk and died but i think i can handle it fine. thanks for all da help. ill post back in a month or two to tell results.

Steven Low
09-22-2008, 06:28 AM
I hope you're ramping into the weights.

Philip Stablein
09-23-2008, 09:47 AM
Don't drink a whole gallon your first day. Drink a quart. The next day, drink a quart + 1cup. Add 1 cup each day as tolerated. Do not zone. EAT. Zoning is calorie restriction. Eat whatever you can find. If you are hungry, you messed up.

Re-read the book.

Take some video of your squats. Then, watch the video of your squats. Then, watch these videos of squats http://strengthmill.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1334

You should be able to figure out what you are doing wrong there.

Don't post monthly on your progress, post more. Keep a workout log. You've got people willing to give you constructive feedback here, so take advantage of it. Digital coaching isn't a sub for real coaching, but with a video camera and a little writing ability you can get some pretty good help.

Stick to SS. Do not get ADD on your program. Stay with SS. You should be squatting 250x5 (minimally) before you even consider quitting SS. Anything less, and you are probably a pussy.

Sebastian Milla
09-23-2008, 05:31 PM
Don't drink a whole gallon your first day. Drink a quart. The next day, drink a quart + 1cup. Add 1 cup each day as tolerated. Do not zone. EAT. Zoning is calorie restriction. Eat whatever you can find. If you are hungry, you messed up.

Re-read the book.

Take some video of your squats. Then, watch the video of your squats. Then, watch these videos of squats http://strengthmill.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1334

You should be able to figure out what you are doing wrong there.

Don't post monthly on your progress, post more. Keep a workout log. You've got people willing to give you constructive feedback here, so take advantage of it. Digital coaching isn't a sub for real coaching, but with a video camera and a little writing ability you can get some pretty good help.

Stick to SS. Do not get ADD on your program. Stay with SS. You should be squatting 250x5 (minimally) before you even consider quitting SS. Anything less, and you are probably a pussy.

yup, definitly just hammered a full gallon the first day :p
it's all good, my body took it like a pro. as for keeping ya'll updated i dont want to be overbearing and just dump my workout logs on you. i do keep them though, i am checking my squat form, and i am more or less eating what I can without dying. havent been hungry in a while and whenever i feel like i have a little room in my tummy I put a glass of milk down the tube.

Derek Weaver
09-23-2008, 06:07 PM
yup, definitly just hammered a full gallon the first day :p
it's all good, my body took it like a pro. as for keeping ya'll updated i dont want to be overbearing and just dump my workout logs on you. i do keep them though, i am checking my squat form, and i am more or less eating what I can without dying. havent been hungry in a while and whenever i feel like i have a little room in my tummy I put a glass of milk down the tube.

Keep a workout log in the workout log section... link it in your signature and I'm sure a lot of people will likely check it out and offer comments as you move along.