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Steve Forman
09-23-2008, 03:10 PM
Does anyone have a reference or article that argues or shows why proper form is better than intensity? Or better worded, just what are the physical benefits to proper form other than prevention of injury?

thanks

Steve

Derek Weaver
09-23-2008, 03:13 PM
There's a CF video where Coach Glassman discusses this I think. Something where he talks about how when people ask him "Do you want me to use good form or to get a good time?" the answer is "Yes". Form and time.... with proper form coming first.

Patrick Donnelly
09-23-2008, 06:12 PM
what are the physical benefits to proper form other than prevention of injury?

Do you need another reason? It'd be rather foolish to risk your health in some arbitrarily defined test of strength, which extends to more than just MetCon's.

Steve Forman
09-23-2008, 07:23 PM
Do you need another reason? It'd be rather foolish to risk your health in some arbitrarily defined test of strength, which extends to more than just MetCon's.


yeah no kidding. its not for me, its for the stubborn clients who insist on doing things without proper form. that they havent been injured yet!. so come on, I know what the other beni's are, help me find the literature to support it.

but thanks anyways.

Steve Forman
09-23-2008, 07:23 PM
There's a CF video where Coach Glassman discusses this I think. Something where he talks about how when people ask him "Do you want me to use good form or to get a good time?" the answer is "Yes". Form and time.... with proper form coming first.

Thanks derek, Ill look for that.

Steven Low
09-23-2008, 08:38 PM
There's been some dicussion somewhere on here (and CF board as well I believe). Greg had a free article on it in PMenu a couple months ago, and Jon Gilson from Again Faster also had a post on it.

Um yeah.. as for my take I'll take the form anyday especially with spinal loading. But I know that form does break down... so it's a tradeoff at times.

Steve Forman
09-23-2008, 09:14 PM
Thanks Steven

Craig Brown
09-23-2008, 10:10 PM
Depending on the movement, poor form is often not full ROM...therefore you are just being a lazy POS if you choose to call your 1/2 squat not-full-extension thruster a thruster. And if I'm counting reps, that one didn't count. That one either. You really want to do this all day?

Steve Forman
09-24-2008, 07:22 AM
Come on laddies and Gents! I know this site is one of the most technical sites there is. Dig deep here, How does poor form affect, flexibility and strength? I know it has a negative affect on it. I know poor form can cause injuries and lack of ROM doesn't give you the desired results, BUT HOW?

Steve Low has turned me to some awesome articles about squat form and form vs intensity (Again Faster has some great stuff), but I have not found the technical answer that I think some look for. If anything this could be good discussion for us, as apposed to answering the long waited question: How many blocks is this meal? :confused:

thanks

Steve

Steven Low
09-24-2008, 07:30 AM
There really is no clear cut answer...

Most people form their own opinion about how far they want to push their own intensity at the expense of their form. Some agree with Greg and some agree with Gilson and some with Glassman (though IIRC Gilson and Glassman are of similar opinion).

George Mounce
09-24-2008, 08:40 AM
Does anyone have a reference or article that argues or shows why proper form is better than intensity? Or better worded, just what are the physical benefits to proper form other than prevention of injury?

thanks

Steve

My question would be why can't you be intense with proper form? When form breaks down are you really being more intense? Intensity is really subjective to the individual, for some (myself included) a 1 RM max deadlift with perfect form is so intense I can only do it once and my CNS is literally fried for the whole day.

I would have to say prevention of injury is enough of a case for me to ensure form is correct at all times.

Steve Forman
09-24-2008, 03:11 PM
Dig deep here, How does poor form affect, flexibility and strength? I know it has a negative affect on it. I know poor form can cause injuries and lack of ROM doesn't give you the desired results, BUT HOW?

Steve


George, I agree with you.

As stated above, and probably a better question, I am not the one that needs to be convinced. Others though need more information. I need literature that shows these effects or lack there of. In my case I have one specific client that has continued to use improper form for years. He refuses to change with the argument that he has never been hurt before. He also states that he doesnt believe that his performance is suffering.

Now Steven Low pointed to an article on Again Faster that talked about the difference of proper and improper form and the use of small and large muscles in those exercises. Great article. However I need more!

Its Okay, Steven Low might be right, there is really no good answer here, WHAT............ I know people will have a difference of opinion here but there's got to be some literature on the effects of poor and improper form. Maybe the title of the thread was a bad choice by me.

bottom line I know bad form has negative effects. It can effect, flexibility and strength. Maybe even coordination. It can cause injury, I get that.

I just need some literature.

Okay Rant over, thanks for letting me blow steam.

Craig Brown
09-24-2008, 03:30 PM
Steve, I don't think you'll find what you are looking for. Because either poor form causes an acute injury, which is not a valid point to your guy (as he's never been hurt), causes chronic injuries (which aren't actually provable to have come from poor form as they develop over the long term), or your client is a guy with bomber joints and connective tissues, and is correct- it doesn't matter in his case. You can look at the biomechanics of a movement and see why one way is more physically advantageous than another, but as far as an intrinsic, concrete reason why perfect form is better than imperfect form- when you have removed injury and efficiency from the model, it doesn't actually matter. The obvious issues are lever arms and shear, but these don't matter if you are strong as an ox and bulletproof.

Of course, most of us here are concerned with efficiency and injury prevention, but not everyone is.

Craig

Steve Forman
09-24-2008, 03:50 PM
Steve, I don't think you'll find what you are looking for. Because either poor form causes an acute injury, which is not a valid point to your guy (as he's never been hurt), causes chronic injuries (which aren't actually provable to have come from poor form as they develop over the long term), or your client is a guy with bomber joints and connective tissues, and is correct- it doesn't matter in his case. You can look at the biomechanics of a movement and see why one way is more physically advantageous than another, but as far as an intrinsic, concrete reason why perfect form is better than imperfect form- when you have removed injury and efficiency from the model, it doesn't actually matter. The obvious issues are lever arms and shear, but these don't matter if you are strong as an ox and bulletproof.

Of course, most of us here are concerned with efficiency and injury prevention, but not everyone is.

Craig

thank you

Pat McElhone
09-24-2008, 06:18 PM
Proper form is that form that allows for the most production of force. If you look at weightlifting in the olympics, those fly weight women all had a better snatch then me, but I am sure I am much stronger in the slow lifts....why their form is better in the snatch then mine. They can produce more force then I can because their technique is rock solid.

Also, practice makes permanate. The more someone does crappy snatch form on the WOD "Isabelle", the harder it will be to later relearn the correct pathways. So, as it always seems to come down to with Crossfit, what are the guy's goals?

Gant Grimes
09-25-2008, 09:58 AM
Come on laddies and Gents! I know this site is one of the most technical sites there is. Dig deep here, How does poor form affect, flexibility and strength? I know it has a negative affect on it. I know poor form can cause injuries and lack of ROM doesn't give you the desired results, BUT HOW?

Steve Low has turned me to some awesome articles about squat form and form vs intensity (Again Faster has some great stuff), but I have not found the technical answer that I think some look for. If anything this could be good discussion for us, as apposed to answering the long waited question: How many blocks is this meal? :confused:

thanks

Steve

For me, training with perfect form is paramount because it prepares your body for the times it won't be able to use perfect form, i.e. competitive athletics (or moving telephone poles during the Apocalypse, etc.). That's why programming should be different for those doing CF for conditioning vs. those doing CF for, um, "sport."

Rather than program conditioning that encourages form breakdown, I plan** sessions that emphasize form but still take a significant metabolic toll (recognizing there is some tradeoff in the extreme ranges).

I can't offer you any literature and don't feel the need to look for it. Some things you know to be true. Or true for you, anyway.


**Back when I was in shape.

Proper form is that form that allows for the most production of force.

For the most part. In most cases--in competitive athletics--you can generate 99% of the force with slightly inefficient technique than you can with perfect technique. Form comes into play when you're repeating these movements.

Consider grapplers. An inefficient grappler will exhaust himself in the first 30 seconds of a match. This isn't because of conditioning, but because his movements, which are applied with excellent force, are inefficient (which taxes his conditioning even more). I recently lost a match this way.

Like you said, it depends on the guy's goals. If you want a better Isabel, grip it and rip it. If you use the snatch to improve at sport, scale appropriately and manage intensity as necessary (or just cut the reps to say...2). If you just want to get better at snatch, then I wouldn't do Isabel at all.

Garrett Smith
09-25-2008, 10:58 AM
Proper form, or attempting to maintain proper form, will both improve flexibility necessary to the exercise being undertaken and in some cases, allow for a lighter weight to be used while still maintaining subjective levels of "high intensity".

Proper form loads the joints and muscles in the most efficient manner, preventing unnecessary wear & tear.

As for your clients who say that their "form" hasn't caused them acute OR chronic injury yet, you may want to have them think of it this way...

"My car was working just fine, I didn't bother with scheduled maintenance, until XXXX broke...now it doesn't run the same (or at all). Mechanic (ie. healthcare practitioners of any/all sorts) says that it will cost a fortune to fix it and it may never be the same again due to permanent damage that was done..."

Everything "works" until it "breaks", then it doesn't work right anymore.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Everything has a cost--one can either pay now, or pay a lot more later.

If people don't get that, then they will simply have to learn the hard way.

Anthony Bainbridge
09-25-2008, 12:00 PM
its for the stubborn clients who insist on doing things without proper form

Drop them as a client. Problem solved.

Steve Forman
09-25-2008, 12:07 PM
Drop them as a client. Problem solved.

thought about that. :D

In my search, Steve Low has turned me to Again Faster .com. There are some great articles on that website and its has great search function as well. I am linking one that I found I thought was really good. kind of what I was looking for when he begins the explain what happens to certain muscle groups in a thruster, in good and bad form. Anyways I hope you enjoy!


http://www.againfaster.com/articles/the-non-negotiability-of-perfection.html

Steve Forman
09-25-2008, 12:10 PM
Proper form, or attempting to maintain proper form, will both improve flexibility necessary to the exercise being undertaken and in some cases, allow for a lighter weight to be used while still maintaining subjective levels of "high intensity".

Proper form loads the joints and muscles in the most efficient manner, preventing unnecessary wear & tear.

As for your clients who say that their "form" hasn't caused them acute OR chronic injury yet, you may want to have them think of it this way...

"My car was working just fine, I didn't bother with scheduled maintenance, until XXXX broke...now it doesn't run the same (or at all). Mechanic (ie. healthcare practitioners of any/all sorts) says that it will cost a fortune to fix it and it may never be the same again due to permanent damage that was done..."

Everything "works" until it "breaks", then it doesn't work right anymore.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Everything has a cost--one can either pay now, or pay a lot more later.

If people don't get that, then they will simply have to learn the hard way.

Great analogy, thanks. I guess if that doesn't work with this guy, then Ill beat him with 2x4, then drop him like Anthony says.

Thomas Bailly
09-25-2008, 03:28 PM
Tell him:
1)his form will eventually cause an injury and you don't want to have any part in that.
2)he is wiring the nervous pathways in an inefficient manner (not full ROM, possibly "overfiring" small movers before prime movers.)
3)current form protocols have come after years of observation/practice/injuries, evolution always wins, we'll talk about it when he's ninety and in pain.

Ask him: why is he afraid of doing the prescribed exercise?( after all proper form is the prescribed exercise, right?)

For reference my crappy form squat weight is higher than my perfect form squat weight, but my athletic performance has benefited from lower weight perfect form squats, in that it is firing my dormant hamstrings....which I know in the future will lead to much higher weight perfect form squats.

I guess what I'm saying is you could try the angle of addressing the weakness that his poor form is trying to cover up.

Garrett Smith
09-26-2008, 09:11 AM
I guess what I'm saying is you could try the angle of addressing the weakness that his poor form is trying to cover up.
+1
Excellent point.