PDA

View Full Version : Eccentric/Deceleration training


Mike ODonnell
12-28-2006, 09:47 AM
I found this interesting, and made me think to pose the question...What is people's opinion on rapid eccentric training/deceleration training, what do you find it most useful for, and how often would you encorporate it into a program?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=BTb13TqL2Xw&mode=related&search
...although the Bosu thing at the end..why do I picture my hands sliding off and my face smashing into it.

Robb Wolf
12-28-2006, 10:59 AM
I found this interesting, and made me think to pose the question...What is people's opinion on rapid eccentric training/deceleration training, what do you find it most useful for, and how often would you encorporate it into a program?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=BTb13TqL2Xw&mode=related&search
...although the Bosu thing at the end..why do I picture my hands sliding off and my face smashing into it.


I like this type of training...I've coined a unique term for it. Olympic Weight lifting! I know this might start a pissing match but the Elite fitness guys are great at cooking up stuff that is almost like Olifting...without Olifting! The band front squats/back squats are cool...what about cleans and snatch balances? Bands to increase rate of acceleration while jumping off a box? How about jumping off a taller box so Vmax at impact is greater?

I guess I'm just a simpleton but all the bands, chains and what-not of the PL'ing world (mainly WestSide) seems like a lot of gear and gizmos compared to learning the Olifts, box jumps, some glute ham work and learning the elements of tumbling like snap downs and round offs. I think the deceleration training is legit but having PL'ed and OL'ed I think more is to be gained, particularly for athletic endeavors, by learning the OL's and basics of tumbling.

The pistol whipping may now commence!

Greg Everett
12-28-2006, 11:15 AM
I agree with Robb for the most part. Dude is doing those squats with 50 kg (110 lb). Lame. Watch any O-lifter and the typical squat will have a rapid eccentric component, but with real loads (I was watching junior Colin Ito squat 210 kg or so for 10 sets of triples last week).

The BOSU thing looks more like party trick, although I can see the benefits since it's rare to see that horizontal upper body eccentric absorption. BOSUs just rub me the wrong way, however.

The sit-up and glute-ham things are interesting I guess, but not exactly revolutionary or unique in terms of stimulus.

Scott Kustes
12-28-2006, 04:42 PM
Robb/Greg/other trainers...how do you feel about the static situp/back xtn things?

Greg Everett
12-28-2006, 04:48 PM
I like static work for developing stability, so having to absorb forces while in a static position strikes me as a good idea. My concern with the exercises in that video is that isometric training really only improves strength in the position worked--so for the ab one, that single exercise may have limited applicability. I like russian twist type work, hollow rock, L-sit, etc.

Neal Winkler
12-28-2006, 05:46 PM
For real doggs.

If you just do Olympic lifting then you can train acceleration and deceleration in one movement.

Dave Van Skike
12-29-2006, 11:40 AM
"I guess I'm just a simpleton but all the bands, chains and what-not of the PL'ing world (mainly WestSide) seems like a lot of gear and gizmos compared to learning the Olifts, box jumps, some glute ham work and learning the elements of tumbling like snap downs and round offs."

I thought the purpose of the bands, chains etc in PL'ing was to hammer out the weak spots in the individual's lift or to provide a different training stimulus/variant on the lift (same but different Pavel trademarked, copyrighted blather blather) in order to allow the athlete to continue working at close to max percentages without going stale.

Otherwise, I think your right. Bands etc looks like a bunch of interesting toys, but comparitlvely worhtless for teh beginner to intermediate strength athlete.

Conversely, I know DJ speaks highly of front squats with chains but maybe his purposes are different.

The bosu ball thing is strange to me. I'm not sure I get it.

Steve Shafley
12-29-2006, 11:57 AM
Decent vid overall.

I do have some similar positions as Robb and Greg though. Those band drop squat variations are very similar to olympic lifts. The only reason I could think of decoupling the movements is that it's specific for training deceleration and the absorption of force, but, that raises the question of why not do a clean or a snatch? You'd get the concentric action of the posterior chain as well as the deceleration for the same time commitment.

I've been reading Boyle's "Functional Training for Sport" and he's got some decent progressions for deceleration training using jumps and plyometrics, and that type of movement training seems more valuable for athletes than the one-planar stuff shown in the video.

Training to absorb force with the arms is much trickier. I'd imagine that doing that bosu ball work is at the end of a whole chain of progressively stressful exercises.

Some of the "Darksiders" have their heads in the sand (and up their asses) regarding some of the commandments handed down by Louie Simmons and the Elite FTS guys. I don't think they realize that Louie's training ideas are under continual evolution, and in most cases, are specific to equipped powerlifting training.

Dave Van Skike
12-29-2006, 04:10 PM
I hope I'm not coming off as obtuse but, seriously. Why? What is the purpose of decelerative bosu bumping? or decelerating a weight in this fashion other than to improve olympic type lifts. I don't grok the application of these knowledges.

Steve Shafley
12-29-2006, 05:26 PM
Maybe it's a minority type opinion, but the ability to safely absorb force, with or without redirecting it is an important quality for contact sports.

Dave Van Skike
12-29-2006, 06:04 PM
Maybe it's a minority type opinion, but the ability to safely absorb force, with or without redirecting it is an important quality for contact sports.

Ok. this makes some sense.

Mike ODonnell
12-30-2006, 09:12 AM
How about the increased force through acceleration, mass and decelleration is supposed to increase muscle strength/power in the concentric phase of a less intense movement?

Ex) Does eccentrically stopping a 100lb bar and squat from your toes lead to greater gains in a concentric jump using only body weight? (like jumping for sports?) Or do you eccentric load with 100lbs, move to a full (eccentric and concentric) plyo jump with a 20lb vest and then test vertical jumping? Dunno.

I do agree that if you are doing Oly clean and snatch it is build in. So most likely a program of Oly lifts and some plyo work would probably take care of it. I did find the techniques interesting in increasing acceleration down to create a greater force than the inital load which may just be a safer and easier way to do sports training for younger less experience athletes.

Pierre Auge
01-01-2007, 09:18 PM
I had fun making the video to respond to steve in another thread so I made this just for the hell of it. I think it relates to this thread a little bit more, I would do it with dumbbells but I don't have any here. I'm itching to try barbell snatches to pistols just for something to do. But again its hard to justify doing it in my apartment.

http://web.mac.com/pierre_auge/iWeb/MSI/Base%20Camp/EFE8D570-9373-4D82-ADC6-A424C72C568C.html

Just thought of a cool name for those, Pistol Whips! heh I'm funny...

Chris Forbis
01-02-2007, 05:15 AM
Cool stuff Pierre.

Lots of possibilities for expanding upon the plyo aspect of it as well. Maybe try starting the rep from standing on the box, jump down, and bounce off the floor back up to the squat on the box. Could also try one footed jumping (probably need a shorter box though) to a pistol.

Steve Shafley
01-02-2007, 05:48 AM
Nice stuff. I am completely one leg deficient. One of my priorities is to correct that.

Pierre Auge
01-02-2007, 09:43 AM
Steve,
you could use a Jumping Pistol Pull-Up...

Set a bar up on your squat cage at about chest height. Load it so it doesn't move on you.

Take a snatch grip
Descend into a pistol
Then Burst Up using your arms to assist and keep you under control
You can also make the descent a nice slow concentric grind.

I've done this as a Tabata Interval Workout switching legs each interval, well that was back when I actually worked out. If anyone thinks BTB Tabata's suck they've got another thing coming, do it on one leg.

Did somebody mention something about goofy stuff?

Robb Wolf
01-02-2007, 11:16 AM
Pierre-
That is LEGITT! Ido shot me a video of some gymnastics training they did...I'll pester him to post a link to it. I think this type of stuff is pretty well developed in gymnastics circles. Super cool and very fun.

Pierre Auge
01-02-2007, 11:31 AM
Yeah it breaks the monotony of even the multitude of CrossFit staples. I'm always intrigued by what Ido has to show and tell. Seems like the guy is at another level all together.

I'm so anxious to get the new gym up and running its not even funny. I really can't figure out what to do with myself these days.

Jonathan Reik
01-02-2007, 09:19 PM
For real doggs. If you just do Olympic lifting then you can train acceleration and deceleration in one movement.

The only reason I could think of decoupling the movements is that it's specific for training deceleration and the absorption of force, but, that raises the question of why not do a clean or a snatch? You'd get the concentric action of the posterior chain as well as the deceleration for the same time commitment.


What parts of the Olympic lifts are training deceleration/eccentric contraction? It seems that the vast majority of bar deceleration is accomplished by gravity, rather than any eccentric contraction - dunno, am I missing something here?

Pierre Auge
01-02-2007, 09:46 PM
Yes because you are trying to meet the bar wherever it ends up for efficiencies sake. Problem is, it freaken weighs alot, so you have kilos of weight driving you down at 9.8m/s squared which you are trying to stand up with!

And you you are trying to meet the bar while it is still travelling upward, but you aren't strong enough so it drives you back down. Then in the fraction of a second that its driving you down your nervous system realizes this and responds by trying to catch the whip of the bar, which produces a second verticle momentus drive in the weight and you drive up at that instant.

Alot more things are happening than just you eccentrically decelerating the bar.

Oh and gravity wont wont help the bar decelerate at all it will in fact help the bar accelerate and crush you!

Think of it like this if there is no contraction when you meet the bar it means you are a limp noodle and it will hurt you. This is bad!

Mike ODonnell
01-03-2007, 06:19 AM
What parts of the Olympic lifts are training deceleration/eccentric contraction? It seems that the vast majority of bar deceleration is accomplished by gravity, rather than any eccentric contraction - dunno, am I missing something here?

If you are doing a full squat under for the clean or snatch.